Help choosing a class

[the clumsy bard]

Good day,

I have just finished a 6.5 year long game with my gaming group.

Yeah a nice long one.

I was only in the game for 3.5 years, but it was a nice long run.

I am now finding myself having to come up with a new character for the new game we are starting next week. One of the other players is taking on the role of the DM. He is someone I have had as a DM before and I greatly enjoyed his last game.

In any case the reason I am here is because I am having a lot of trouble deciding on a class.

Our party is going to be fairly large (assumed 5 others besides myself for a grand total of 6) The optimization levels vary greatly throughout the group and one player is brand new.

I am considered to be the highest in terms of optimizing in the group and thus I don't need build help just a general consensus of what people would suggest playing given the parameters I will provide after this. Feel free to suggest builds, but as already mentioned it isn't necessary.

The party is the following:

Human Cleric 4
Half ogre barbarian ( not sure what level depends on what template the dm is allowing or telling the player to use)
Human Rogue 4 - playing more of a charisma based rogue, heavy roleplayer who prefers flavor over efficiency.
Sorcerer 4 ( she will probably play a blaster type sorcerer, she doesn't optimize much, last game she had a 25th level swordsage with an ac of 29)
Human or dwarf Fighter 4 (she is completely new at the game and after many years of watching others play is finally deciding to play thus ->fighter)

The following parameters apply to my character and will not change due to my background:

- half-daelkyr
- Lost my arm during an early adventure.
- The personal symbiont I am using is the crawling gauntlet which we are flavoring to replace the missing limb. (keeping my arm hidden and allowing the "arm/hand to slither up the arm to not show"
- Using a 32 point buy system.
- Psionics are allowed and my dm said if I were to play a psionic based class it would work well in his campaign.
- Most roles seem to be filled aka the typical healbot (cleric), tank (barbarian & fighter), skillmonkey (rogue) and arcane (sorcerer)
- Pathfinder base classes are allowed as long as my DM can peruse them and thinks they are ok and not broken.
- The character is not a fan of divine related things, aka refuses healing from the cleric, not outright hate just doesn't believe in religion. So respects the clerics beliefs, just chooses not to have to believe them himself, so please don't suggest paladin (unless flavored to be something non god like) or no favored souls etc.

Keep in mind I am aware of the nasty gentleman build, but would prefer to stay away from stuff like that as it may result in raining books upon my head!

Please suggest away, I am really jumping all over the place with ideas myself, but would like to hear what people would think would be a good idea given the parameters.

The Clumsy Bard

[sirpercival]

Well, the party may have all the "iconic" roles covered, but the two casters are extremely suboptimal (healbot and blaster??), so what they really need is a swiss army knife to handle all the problems you'll encounter.

If you don't want to step on too many toes... you probably shouldn't play a wizard or druid. Because toes will be stepped on. So, that leaves you with Factotum, or Psionics, or both (you could reflavor Factotum to be psionic instead of arcane dilettante, for example). However, being a SAK is difficult with psionics unless you're an Erudite, because of how limiting the powers-known are.

Actually, probably the best idea is an artificer. Focus on being a buffificer or golemficer and you won't overshadow the party TOO much.

[Urpriest]

For an Aberration who doesn't want to rely on the Cleric for healing, may I recommend Egoist or Psychic Warrior? You'll have decent self-healing, and can use that Aberration type to grab Rapidstrike at higher levels, making a (potentially toned down) King of Smack build. Plus it's got lots of squicky daelkyr flavor.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'm going to say Psion and focus on non-basty-nuker way to go. I was going to say Psychic Warrior but it would become redundant. But either way, you can nap the power, Body Adjustment I believe, that heals you 1d12 and can be augmented to heal more. Not as efficient as a cleric healbot, but you can get a Dorje (I think thats the psionic version of a wand) of it later when you have more gold to throw around.

Wise selection of your powers lets you cover weak points in the party dynamic, such if the tanks are inefficient, you can nab buffs and suppor them. If the skill-monkey is less than useful at it (that doesn't look like it will happen, but he may lag behind in non-social skills) you can grab powers that increase your monkiness. Its versatile enough that you can cover weak points (though, you individually may not be very powerful but that seems ok with you).

Ninja'd by Ur-Priest suggesting Egotist...now I just need a Barbarian raging stomp me while a wizard turns me into a frog :smalltongue:

[sirpercival]

As an expansion of my Artificer idea, you could also see if you can get the DM to adapt the Fleshwarper prc from Lords of Madness to an artificer. Seems like a Daelkyr Half-blood would be very interested in that sort of thing.

[the clumsy bard]

(though, you individually may not be very powerful but that seems ok with you)

Last game I was one shotting infernal dragons and the tarrasque etc... My previous DM and other players grew a little tired of that. I am trying to focus more on the roleplaying this time around and be more of a team player.

The artificer is a nice idea. Its actually what I originally planned on playing in the campaign. The only issue is that the DM doesn't plan on awarding experience in the traditional sense. Its more along the lines of:

"We've been playing for about 5-6 sessions and you just finished this dungeon crawl everyone go up a level."

Thus very hard to spend Experience points when you are only getting your craft reserve and anything else is whatever your level is. The Dm seemed like he'd go about it on a case by case situation for what I am building, but it would be something I would have to talk to him heavily about again as it seems like a suboptimal choice if the DM is going to nerf building things.

Although I really do want to play the class so I might just suck it up and take it as is in this situation.

[sirpercival]

As soon as you get Retain Essence it becomes easier.

[the clumsy bard]

Good point!

[Jarveiyan]

It looks like all other avenues are covered, why not go bard?

[sirpercival]

"Covered" is a relative term here. Bard is a good class in any party, but the rest of the party is pretty sub-optimal. They could use some real help, and artificer is just more effective.

[Hazzardevil]

Ooh, Ooh! Be a Artificer Battle-Blessed asking the DM if you can drop the dwarf requirement. (From Races of stone) or use that ritual from savage species! You get to make all sorts of magic items for the party and you can use those to help the fighter keep up with the rest of the party for longer.

[The Boz]

Atheists in the Forgotten Realms are imbeciles. It's not religion if you can actually see a god shagging your mom.

[Bloodgruve]

You could try a Thrallherd. If you see any weaknesses in the party you can pull in the follower that you need, like say an artificer...

I'm playing a gishy Ardent currently that is a lot of fun. Uses Nature and Travel Mantles. Built him as a cross between Wolverine and Nightcrawler ;)

I've also just started playing a Factotum and it is very fun, you have options in every situation. My build is an Iaijutsu Focus sneaky roguish setup but I can hold my own in social situations and combat.

GL
Blood~

[hex0]

Needs more utility/buffing, my favorites are Spellthief (preferably Trickster variant), Factotum, or Dragon Shaman (preferably Copper).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard)/Impure Prince!

Savage Bard can take Gatekeeper Initiate, so I'd probably make it something like Savage Bard 8/ Mindbender 1/ Impure Prince 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Impure Prince 4/ Abjurant Champion 5, for a +16 BAB and only one lost level of spellcasting. Melodic Casting, Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, and a Badge of Valor should all be obvious. Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) could be useful, but it's already a somewhat big party. I'm fond of Versatile Spellcaster, you'll need Combat Casting no later than 15th, and of course there's Mindsight.

[JaronK]

Just a thought, but that inexperienced Fighter is going to be very weak by comparison. Have you considered being some sort of buff focused caster, like a Bard/Sublime Chord/War Weaver or something?

JaronK

[hex0]

Just a thought, but that inexperienced Fighter is going to be very weak by comparison. Have you considered being some sort of buff focused caster, like a Bard/Sublime Chord/War Weaver or something?

JaronK

Ability Enhancer feat with Animalistic Power spell will get you free hugs from the Barbarian.

[DoughGuy]

Perhaps a dread necromancer? You have all the normal bases filled so it fits, you can self heal and your undead could help support the new player.

Alternatively if your group is tired of you one shotting things try truenamer.

[Tokuhara]

Psion. Specifically the Spell-to-Power Erudite. You can focus on party buffs and BF control

[Dusk Eclipse]

You can make a decent gish using bard as base, and with just a little bit of IC optimization all the other people in the party will be better in combat.

You can just take the basics (Dragon Fire Inspiration and perhaps one of the boosters such as Song of the Heart or Badge of Valour but no both) and still be quite useful. Fell free to prestige into Sublime Chord if you see you might need more arcane power.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wow, the power level discrepancy of advice here is IMMENSE.

Some people are focusing on extremely high power and high versatility options so you will be guaranteed to find a role should you want to do so, with the possible side effect of potentially negating the difficulty of any encounter you come across, while others are focusing on more niche, lower power options, in the hopes that they can target a niche which the other people will find non objectionable.

So the question is: what do you want? For the powerful options on the table, are you able and willing to hold back, with the knowledge that you could solve any encounter you come across? For the less powerful options, how sure of your ability to choose a class which would mesh well with the needs of your group?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Wow, the power level discrepancy of advice here is IMMENSE.

Some people are focusing on extremely high power and high versatility options so you will be guaranteed to find a role should you want to do so, with the possible side effect of potentially negating the difficulty of any encounter you come across, while others are focusing on more niche, lower power options, in the hopes that they can target a niche which the other people will find non objectionable.

So the question is: what do you want? For the powerful options on the table, are you able and willing to hold back, with the knowledge that you could solve any encounter you come across? For the less powerful options, how sure of your ability to choose a class which would mesh well with the needs of your group?

The OP seems possible of high-op and and wishes to play closer to his buddys, which is average on the low side. If the OP uses a highly versatile class but intentionally limits his own power, through careful selection of spells/powers and their applications, is exactly what the OP wants. Careful selection of Psion or Sorcerer or whatever the divine tier 2 class will help cover weaknesses while not making himself inherently superior. Supportative is better in general imho.

[dspeyer]

Missing a scout, a utility caster and a battlefield controller (though the existing casters may branch out a little).

Normally I'd suggest druid (with the intention to spend a lot of time as a cat), but that's probably too powerful for this party and makes your missing arm seem rather unimportant.

How about a rogue / wizard, alternating levels? The terribly unsynergistic multiclassing should make up for the wizard's power. If you find your power level falling behind, find an appropriate prestige class.

You can swap psion in for wizard if it fits the world better. It's less flexible but multiclasses a lot better.

[JackRackham]

I think factotum, with a level of swordsage thrown somewhere would be perfect here. You'd be pretty powerful in one encounter per day, able to fill any and all skill gaps, it'd synergize with the rogue, and the swordsage level would keep you relevant in combat (w/o being overpowered, if you use some diamond mind for saves instead of going all-out after offensive abilities) when your spells run out.

EDIT: My thinking is that you enjoy being powerful and this could allow you to indulge that without ruining anyone's day, since your access to spells would be so limited numerically.

[Metahuman1]

I'm throwing my vote toward Artificer and just telling the DM

"Look, this is not gonna be a combat heavy character. I'll keep a wand or two and some scroll of attack spells ready for emergency self defense, and beyond that I'm gonna use my stuff to pump up the rest of the party and to help get around problems that the rest of the party doesn't have the right skill/spell/feat to handle. "

If he still has a problem with this, tough it out until you can use make Items of Restoration and either Summon Undead V or Planar Binding. Make a Wright or a Succubus appear and drain a single level form you, dismiss it, craft with the XP form bring half way between your original level and the level you where drain too, then Restoration yourself. Repeat as needed. Walla, no need to worry about not having crafting XP.

And tell the DM "Look, I'm sorry, but your not letting me use my class features that normally don't require a trick like this. I'm just trying to not be a drain on resources, so work with me here."

If you don't let yourself get too carried away abusing that trick and your DM is a generally reasonable person, you should be fine.

For Combat, your using Wands/Scrolls of Buff spells, and Wands/Scrolls of useful battle feild control spells, and your using Wands/Scrolls/Potions to heal yourself, no cleric required.

[Warmage]

With that arm, I'm thinking monk would be a good choice, roleplay wise. Gameplay wise, you should not be dominating the encounters that way, but it will let you aid that newbie fighter in melee.

If you don't like monks (and let's be honest, most people hate them), you should choose a nice support class, such as Bard or a utility caster.

[Mockingbird]

Oh my gosh...
Six and a half years..
Wow..
:p

[Rejakor]

Don't bother futzing about with the artificer unless doing inventory is fun for you.

I'd go psion 2/3rds, something else 1/3rd. Binder maybe? There are some psionic vestiges, and a psionic anima mage class would be interesting. Psion 6/Binder 3/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Psionic Prestige Class X would probably be pretty fun to play.

That said, you can pretty much go anywhere... i'd have a look at combining Wu Jen with something myself, because I like the Wu Jen.

Maybe being an Artificer can give you something to do instead of dominating combat.


Binder/Warlock is pretty damn cool in terms of 'messing with powers wot man was not meant to wot of'. If you're going for nasty daelkyr flavour it would fit pretty good. Demonbinder would be alright, or good ol' anima mage as prestige classes.

[Randomguy]

I would say hexblade, since it seems to fit given the backstory and stuff (A tough character that can survive anything the world throws at him, even losing a limb), but you've already got 2 melee characters. Perhaps a hexblade archer? Something psionic might work better, but I don't know much about psionics.

[Tokuhara]

Don't bother futzing about with the artificer unless doing inventory is fun for you.

I'd go psion 2/3rds, something else 1/3rd. Binder maybe? There are some psionic vestiges, and a psionic anima mage class would be interesting. Psion 6/Binder 3/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Psionic Prestige Class X would probably be pretty fun to play.

That said, you can pretty much go anywhere... i'd have a look at combining Wu Jen with something myself, because I like the Wu Jen.

Maybe being an Artificer can give you something to do instead of dominating combat.


Binder/Warlock is pretty damn cool in terms of 'messing with powers wot man was not meant to wot of'. If you're going for nasty daelkyr flavour it would fit pretty good. Demonbinder would be alright, or good ol' anima mage as prestige classes.

I love Binder/Warlock, maybe with a variant of Anima Mage that blends Warlock's invocation with Vestiges? Anybody got this in the Homebrew Oven?

[Rubik]

I definitely suggest helping the rest of the party out in one way or another.

War weaver and a buffer wizard would definitely come in handy. BFC to help your party mop up after you buff 'em up as a move action.

Though if your XP issues were a bit more...normal...then I might suggest doing something like the artificer archer I did. I had a bunch of +1 returning aurorum spell-storing (Pathfinder) dye arrows, all filled with his infusions of the day before. I can fire regular arrows at my enemies, and the spell-storing arrows at my friends. Buffs, damage, and debuffs, all as an attack action!

Maybe talk to your DM and ask him about some sort of expanded crafting pool? Or maybe abuse crafting cost reducers. IIRC, you can get the cost down to like 2% of the original that way.

[Dr.Epic]

Monk? I don't, seems like with a missing arm you'd go for a combat style that plays that to your advantage and for some reason I think martial artist.

Just don't go ranger, unless you know how to make one arm work with either two weapon fighting or firing a bow.

[Tokuhara]

Monk? I don't, seems like with a missing arm you'd go for a combat style that plays that to your advantage and for some reason I think martial artist.

Just don't go ranger, unless you know how to make one arm work with either two weapon fighting or firing a bow.

Teeth? Footbow?

[hex0]

Monk? I don't, seems like with a missing arm you'd go for a combat style that plays that to your advantage and for some reason I think martial artist.

Just don't go ranger, unless you know how to make one arm work with either two weapon fighting or firing a bow.

You don't have to have any arms (or legs for that matter) to be a Monk. Heck, a Lantern Archon could be a Monk.

You could TWF with a 1 handed weapon and armor spikes as well.

[Rejakor]

The problem with being a buffer G.O.D wizard/archivist/whatever is that it's boring and makes you the engine behind the group's victories. The OP seems to want to take a bit more of a back seat and yet still have an interesting/fun chassis.

Thus my suggestions to go after something he likes, split something normally strong up with unfavourable multiclassing (losing caster levels)/weak PrCs, or use something weak but fun like warlock/binder.

[leegi0n]

Well, the party may have all the "iconic" roles covered, but the two casters are extremely suboptimal (healbot and blaster??), so what they really need is a swiss army knife to handle all the problems you'll encounter.

If you don't want to step on too many toes... you probably shouldn't play a wizard or druid. Because toes will be stepped on. So, that leaves you with Factotum, or Psionics, or both (you could reflavor Factotum to be psionic instead of arcane dilettante, for example). However, being a SAK is difficult with psionics unless you're an Erudite, because of how limiting the powers-known are.

Actually, probably the best idea is an artificer. Focus on being a buffificer or golemficer and you won't overshadow the party TOO much.



I would try a psionic(wilder)....I played one of those not too long ago. Lots of fun. Me love Overchanneling.....

[CactusAir]

Hasn't it been pointed out enough times that the "new guy starts as a fighter, it's simple" thing is a lie?

Making a fighter that works is hard. If you want easy, have the new guy be like a Warlock or Warmage or something.

[Tokuhara]

Hasn't it been pointed out enough times that the "new guy starts as a fighter, it's simple" thing is a lie?

Making a fighter that works is hard. If you want easy, have the new guy be like a Warlock or Warmage or something.

Fighter in an unoptimized group is easier in PF than in 3.5. Personally, in an Unoptimized group, I love Human Fighter 20, just for the sheer number of feats. Optimized? No way in Baator. Fun? Yes, if done right (I personally play a "Samurai" if I do Fighter 20)

[Rejakor]

I <3 rolling up with a fighter and doing better than poor optimizers with T1 classes. Especially when they do a lot of crap talking. And then they try to say that they're looking incompetent by comparison because X feat or ACF that i'm using is 'broken'. Which is hilarious to anyone that knows anything at all about the tiers system/DnD mechanics.

[CactusAir]

Fighter in an unoptimized group is easier in PF than in 3.5.

If by "easier" you mean less to worry about since you can do even less, sure.



Personally, in an Unoptimized group, I love Human Fighter 20, just for the sheer number of feats. Optimized? No way in Baator. Fun? Yes, if done right (I personally play a "Samurai" if I do Fighter 20)

Yeah, because "+2 when X" a dozen times totally makes up for the lack of actual abilities.

[hex0]

How 'unoptimized' do you want to be?

Duskblade (or maybe Hexblade) 5/Dragon Disciple 10 wouldn't be horrible if you had Arcane Strike for your bonus spells and if you were allowed to take Improved Breath Weapon early.

...Or take Green Star Adept.

Don't throw things at me! >.<

[CactusAir]

How 'unoptimized' do you want to be?

Duskblade (or maybe Hexblade) 5/Dragon Disciple 10 wouldn't be horrible if you had Arcane Strike for your bonus spells and if you were allowed to take Improved Breath Weapon early.

...Or take Green Star Adept.

Don't throw things at me! >.<

Green star adept only advances casting by 5/10 levels, but advances CL by 15. Useful for a holy-word or telekinesis one trick pony build.