E6 - PrC 8 Ranks needed early entry?

[cagemarrow]

So I'm trying to find a way to get as many levels in Chameleon as possible for an E6 game. I can definitely get 1 level as the 6th level of the character but I'm wondering if there are ways to get 2 or more levels.

Human - Rogue - 1 flaw allowed

Feats - Able Learner, Favored Criminal or Performers Guild (Cityscape), Primary Contact Criminal or Performs Guild (Cityscape)

This allows me to put 8 ranks into Bluff or Disguise at level 4, but I still need 8 ranks in the other skill as well. Primary Contact specifically states that you can only take it once unfortunately. Does anyone know of any other way to get an extra rank in either skill early?


I have found that the guilds trick can work for Beast Heart Adept and Bloodstorm Blade though :)

[Tyndmyr]

Well...there's always level drain.

[DoctorGlock]

Also bloodlines depending on how you interpret them. Bloodlines are not LA but rather you buy off a few levels (meaning lower levels for a bit longer) but the skill cap increases.

[cagemarrow]

Permanent Level Drain also costs you skill ranks so that won't work.

Bloodlines unfortunately are considered levels in my group so the character would permanently lose the HD, BAB, Skill Points, and Saves from the bloodline level so I don't think that will help either.

Are there any other options? Guilds or organizations that grant a bonus rank with a high enough membership score? Feats?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use test-based prerequisites (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/testBasedPrerequisites.htm) instead?

[DoctorGlock]

Probably no other way then. Try factotum, it almost like being a chameleon.

[Tyndmyr]

Permanent Level Drain also costs you skill ranks so that won't work.

Oh, it absolutely works. Hit level 4, go chameleon for level 5. Get drained. Choose something other than chameleon for your level lost. Continue leveling. Pick chameleon when you level up.

[DoctorGlock]

Oh, it absolutely works. Hit level 4, go chameleon for level 5. Get drained. Choose something other than chameleon for your level lost. Continue leveling. Pick chameleon when you level up.

The issue being that he may no longer qualify for chameleon (at DM discretion) and then cannot advance it. Or more likely his DM will make him loose the levels top down.

[kestrel404]

I've considdered this before - Changeling is a very hard class to manage early entry for. However, if you're willing to go to really extreme lengths and you've got the budget for it, it is doable.

First, you'll need to start out with 24 skill points at 1st level - rogue is not a necessity here, but it does help. Don't worry too much about class skills - it's not going to matter.

Second, you need a caster to cast polymorph on you. Yes, a 4th level spell. There are ways to manage that even in E6, though they're expensive and difficult. Ideally this is part of your backstory. The good news is that you only need it cast at CL 6 - because you're being polymorphed into Least Dusk Giant (Heroes of Horror, 147). Then, you use the Cannibalize ability (which is an Ex attack ability, and thus granted by polymorph) to gain HD in the next 6 minutes - if you've got both bluff and disguise as class skills, then you'll only need 4 more HD (20 HD worth of sentients), otherwise you'll need 12 (60 HD of sentients) - for purposes of speed, you'll probably need to either eat a sleeping village of commoners or an entire flock of sheep. Don't worry - Dusk Giants don't get full.

Last step is to get a psionic character to use Psychic Reformation on you - yes, another 4th level ability. Again, you can probably manage it. You then re-assign your skill points to meet the requirements of Chameleon. Congrats, you can now get into this awesome PrC at 2nd level.

So, yes, it's possible within the rules to do this. Is any GM ever going to let you? Probably not.

[Lord Bingo]

So, yes, it's possible within the rules to do this. Is any GM ever going to let you? Probably not.
Could you please specify exactly how this could be achieved. I am admittedly skeptical of all this "it can probably be managed", especially considering that E6 by-the-book does not have 4th+ level spells or their equivalents. -At least this is how I understand E6.

[cagemarrow]

Least Dusk Giant eating route is interesting. Could be fun in a normal game but definitely won't work in the one I'm playing in. Only thing with spells higher than 3rd level are monsters so I'd have to track down one with the required abilities and I can't think of any CR 10 or less monsters with either of those abilities.

We also play most recent level gained is lost with Level Loss, we don't get to choose which one goes away so that won't work.


Oh well, it was really just a thought experiment and I just wanted the floating feat from lvl 2 of chameleon anyway.

[Vladislav]

Could you please specify exactly how this could be achieved. I am admittedly skeptical of all this "it can probably be managed", especially considering that E6 by-the-book does not have 4th+ level spells or their equivalents. -At least this is how I understand E6.

Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold Sorcerer can get 4th level spells by character level 6. Considered pretty much the epitome of cheese in E6, but 100% by-the-book legal.

[kestrel404]

Could you please specify exactly how this could be achieved. I am admittedly skeptical of all this "it can probably be managed", especially considering that E6 by-the-book does not have 4th+ level spells or their equivalents. -At least this is how I understand E6.

The easy way is to get an Artificer to scribe a scroll of Polymorph and a Psionic Artificer to make a power stone with Psychic Reformation. Since an artificer's effective caster level for scribing scrolls is artificer level +2, then a 6th level E6 artificer can scribe any 4th level spell he desires onto a scroll (at CL up to 8).

Alternately, when you gain 'epic' benefits in E6 you can purchase things other than feats. What you can and cannot get is dependent on the GM's interpretation of E6, but the original thread on E6 included such things as higher level class features (+1d6 sneak attack) and the ability to cast specific 4th level spells (1/day polymorph at CL) as possible things you could buy with XP.

Alternatively, if the Artificer isn't available in your setting, there was the possibility of 'artifact' level scrolls that contain spells of 4th level and higher. There would of course be psionic equivalents.

Barring that, there are methods by which you can get a 6th level character the ability to cast Polymorph. For instance, take a Beguiler, get Polymorph onto his spell list (for instance by giving him the Transformation domain through prestige classes or feats), and have him take the Versatile Spellcaster feat - then he may spend 2 3rd level spell slots to cast polymorph.

So, basically, getting 4th level spells/powers in E6 'can be managed', but they require a lot of work or explanation to accomplish. Requiring them at character creation is an exercise in getting books thrown at you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold Sorcerer can get 4th level spells by character level 6. Considered pretty much the epitome of cheese in E6, but 100% by-the-book legal.

No, no, no!

Desert Kobold, because you don't take a Con penalty. Plus you forgot to mention the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.

Spellhoarding, to trade your Sorcerer spellcasting for Wizard casting of equal level.

Your first level should be Wizard, to get Collegiate Wizard (need a flaw), plus you use the Martial Wizard to get either Combat Reflexes or Improved Initiative. Specialize in Conjuration and get Abrupt Jaunt, and with the Draconic Rite of Passage you get Charm Person.

Your next four levels should be Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, for 1d8+2+Con HP/level, 3/4 BAB, and you get proficiency with a light or one-handed weapon (armor spikes) and proficiency and weapon focus with a martial weapon (glaive).

Your sixth character level should be Mindbender 1 despite Enchantment being a prohibited school.

That gets 9th level Wizard spellcasting ability at level 6, gains four spells known per level so you know at least eight 4th and four 5th level spells regardless of what your DM makes available. Your spells are written on your scales so there's no chance of your DM taking away your spellbook. The same spells can be copied onto your scales multiple times, and you can sacrifice a copy to cast it as though from a scroll. If you ready an action and successfully counterspell, and sacrifice a gem of certain minimum value and a scribed spell of certain minimum level, you automatically gain the countered spell as a spell known/scribed and can prepare and cast it regardless of what spell list it's from.

[darksolitaire]

And I still say that it needs more dragonspawn.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

And I still say that it needs more dragonspawn.

Dragonwrought Kobolds are discernible as eggs, before they've hatched; they've never been not-dragons. Dragonspawn cannot be applied to dragons. Dragonspawn + Dragonwrought is impossible unless you throw every shred of flavor and RP under the bus.

[Tyndmyr]

Could you please specify exactly how this could be achieved. I am admittedly skeptical of all this "it can probably be managed", especially considering that E6 by-the-book does not have 4th+ level spells or their equivalents. -At least this is how I understand E6.

Also, Sanctum Spell + additional spell level modifier of choice and + Extra Slot. Feat intensive, but hey...it's E6. Feat expenditure for access to new levels of spells is pretty doable. Continue taking extra slot for an additional level of access per feat slot, granting you 9th level casting in 8 feats.

SLAs also exist.

Also, Artificer. No real cheese required here to get access to 4th level spells, simply being an artificer will suffice.

Also, there's what, the Ardent/ML shenanigans path to get 9th level psionics?

There's a number of ways to pull it off in E6. I've actually done the first one...it's actually fairly balanced for 4th level spells. It is...pretty broken when you start cycling up to 9ths.

[cagemarrow]

So with the Dusk Giant option, do you think a ring of sustenance would suffice to maintain their HD?

I could see this as a cool Villian character in E6. Kinda a Rite of Ascension like the mayor in Buffy tried.

[kestrel404]

So with the Dusk Giant option, do you think a ring of sustenance would suffice to maintain their HD?

I could see this as a cool Villian character in E6. Kinda a Rite of Ascension like the mayor in Buffy tried.

No. However, if you're thinking serious ritual magic time, then using Polymorph Any Object to permanently become a Dusk Ogre (or else using the ritual in Savage Species that lets you become a monster) would fit the bill nicely.

[dextercorvia]

The issue being that he may no longer qualify for chameleon (at DM discretion) and then cannot advance it. Or more likely his DM will make him loose the levels top down.

He does qualify so long as he has 5 HD left.

Bard5/Chameleon1 with 9 ranks in the pertinent skills gets drained for one HD. He picks a level of bard, and now has 8 ranks in the pertinent skills. He still qualifies for Chameleon, and can take the next level.

For bonus points, use Restoration rather than adventure for the lost level.

Repeat as necessary, you can get all 6 levels in Chameleon.

[Tyndmyr]

He does qualify so long as he has 5 HD left.

Bard5/Chameleon1 with 9 ranks in the pertinent skills gets drained for one HD. He picks a level of bard, and now has 8 ranks in the pertinent skills. He still qualifies for Chameleon, and can take the next level.

For bonus points, use Restoration rather than adventure for the lost level.

Repeat as necessary, you can get all 6 levels in Chameleon.

Right, it works by RAW, but they have house rules for levels lost. Meh.

Alternative solution for floating feats: Eternal Wand of Heroics.

[dextercorvia]

Right, it works by RAW, but they have house rules for levels lost. Meh.

Alternative solution for floating feats: Eternal Wand of Heroics.

People houserule away all the best tricks.

[Morph Bark]

Dragonwrought Kobolds are discernible as eggs, before they've hatched; they've never been not-dragons. Dragonspawn cannot be applied to dragons. Dragonspawn + Dragonwrought is impossible unless you throw every shred of flavor and RP under the bus.

What if you apply Dragonspawn first?

[Tankadin]

What if you apply Dragonspawn first?

3/4s on the character's mother's side?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What if you apply Dragonspawn first?

Dragonspawn is an acquired template, it gets added on after everything the character is born with. Dragonwrought represents having been born with the dragon creature type, thus the two cannot be combined.