Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground XXVI

[Amphetryon]

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XXVI. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Friday, November 11th, 2011 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Amphetryon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Sunday, November 27th, 2011 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted. (Judges are getting a couple of extra days due to the Thanksgiving Holiday in America).

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

CodeNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

CodeSpells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This week's special ingredient is:
SRD's Shadowdancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm)!
We will have trophies for 1st through 3rd places, as well as a special trophy for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

Allez optimiser!

Contestants
Zipding
Akal_Saris
Venger
Dusk_Eclipse
Hunter_Killer
AMFV
OMG_PONIES
Elfstone
The_Gilded_Duke
Grey_McBannert
BillyBobJoe
Akto
Kestrel404
Mr.Smashy
Diefje
Lateral
TheGeckoKing
phatpack
vhfforever
Hand_of_Vecna
Maethirion
flabort
Darthteej
gbprime
Piggy_Knowles

Judges

The Builds
Lord McUmbra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203663&postcount=305)
Sandamir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203671&postcount=306)
Ensis Tenebra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203694&postcount=307)
Pumpkinhead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203710&postcount=308)
Osric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203725&postcount=309)
Lucian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203737&postcount=310)
Khariman Sandiga (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203753&postcount=311)
Theodore Kaczynski (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203769&postcount=312)
Vesper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203783&postcount=313)
Artou Defoor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203792&postcount=314)
Athek (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203814&postcount=315)
Karn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203830&postcount=316)
The Raven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203845&postcount=317)
The Dancing Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203854&postcount=318)
Claire, aka Mr. Dini (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203885&postcount=319)
Tiesa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203906&postcount=320)
The Damned Drake (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203920&postcount=321)
Domovoi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203937&postcount=322)

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)

[Zipding]

I have an idea for this PrC, I hope it works out, I'm in.

[Akal Saris]

Good choice of PrC, it's one that I've been expecting for a while now!

It will be interesting to see what people will do with more than 1 level in the secret ingredient. Hopefully there will be something more imaginative than a bunch of shadow pouncers.

Sidenote: Back in 3.0, I think I remember that when a shadow died, it was dead permanently, not for 30 days :smalleek:

Good luck with being the chair, Amp! :smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

Yay! as promised, I'm going to compete. I had a question about the flavour/fluff/backstory stuff. what is the etiquette on using pre-existing material for this (e.g. if I wrote about the tragic past of bruce wayne for vigilante the last time around) I haven't seen this done and wanted to make sure whether or not it was allowed or not since I didn't want to break any rules my first time around.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I have an interesting idea so this time I might end up competing... but I have one question, how have RHD been handled in the IC competitions? are they allowed?

[Private-Prinny]

I have an interesting idea so this time I might end up competing... but I have one question, how have RHD been handled in the IC competitions? are they allowed?

They are very much allowed, just don't expect to be able to get rid of them. Just look at last round's honorable mention. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12044039&postcount=190)

[Zipding]

A build that actually went through my head before being immediatly scrapped was the Shadow Dancing Phase Spider from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. While that would be highly entertaining and probably really good on the original front, it would suck beyond belief.

[Hunter Killer]

Excellent. I love this class, and I'm really excited to see what we can do with it. The shadow pouncer, like Akal Saris was suggesting, was my first plan. Hopefully I can come up with something a little more creative than that...

Given the above I suppose this goes without saying, but I mean to compete. And this time, I'm going to win. :smalltongue:

[Venger]

A build that actually went through my head before being immediatly scrapped was the Shadow Dancing Phase Spider from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. While that would be highly entertaining and probably really good on the original front, it would suck beyond belief.

well hey, there's more fronts to appeal to than just power. if your build's not the most powerful, you can pull your average up with elegance (and a shadowdancing phase spider screams elegance) since I can't think of a dancer who could out-elegance him/her.

[Thurbane]

Shadowdancer. Nice.

And welcome to our new chairman! :smallsmile:

[AMFV]

A build that actually went through my head before being immediatly scrapped was the Shadow Dancing Phase Spider from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. While that would be highly entertaining and probably really good on the original front, it would suck beyond belief.

As a sidenote its normally considered poor form to discuss possible build elements before builds are released. As this can affect their originality scores and is generally not always the best idea.

Also I think I'm going to compete if I can come up with something good.

[Amphetryon]

As a sidenote its normally considered poor form to discuss possible build elements before builds are released. As this can affect their originality scores and is generally not always the best idea.


The man speaks truth.

[AMFV]

The man speaks truth.

Albeit in a confusing and rambling way. I should not post from my phone.

[The Gilded Duke]

I had a question about the Summon Shadow ability of the Shadowdancer. It says that your companion shadow gains 2 HD for every 3 levels you take of Shadowdancer. Does this count all of your shadowdancer levels, or just the levels after you gain the companion shadow?

In other words, at Shadowdancer level 3, would you have a 3HD shadow or a 5HD shadow?

[Venger]

I had a question about the Summon Shadow ability of the Shadowdancer. It says that your companion shadow gains 2 HD for every 3 levels you take of Shadowdancer. Does this count all of your shadowdancer levels, or just the levels after you gain the companion shadow?

In other words, at Shadowdancer level 3, would you have a 3HD shadow or a 5HD shadow?

Well, it doesn't really specify on the SRD, but the DMG does manage to muddy things a bit: "For example, a 9th level shadowdancer can have a shadow companion with 6 HD."

while on the one hand that would explain why they reprint "summon shadow" at lvl 6 and 9, their example is a little confusing.

normal shadows have 3 HD, not 2, so a 6th level shadowdancer's shadow would have 5 and then a 9th level shadowdancer's shadow would have 7, not 6, unless it "starts" with 2HD from your first 3 levels of shadowdancer (instead of its 3 racial HD from being a shadow) and then picks up HD after that since your shadow has a few immunities, which would make it add up. as a result, this seems more likely.

this is what happens when you change the rules from 3.0 and don't change the tables :smallbiggrin: as you might guess from the table, in 3.0, a shadowdancer just summoned 3 shadows without the HD stuffs.

from the way I am reading it, you would have a 2HD shadow


does that answer your question?

[OMG PONIES]

Competing, at least for now.

[Amphetryon]

Yay! as promised, I'm going to compete. I had a question about the flavour/fluff/backstory stuff. what is the etiquette on using pre-existing material for this (e.g. if I wrote about the tragic past of bruce wayne for vigilante the last time around) I haven't seen this done and wanted to make sure whether or not it was allowed or not since I didn't want to break any rules my first time around.
We'll generally want to stay away from entirely or largely derivative backstories.

While some similarities between your entrant and pre-existing fictional characters is all but inevitable, highlighting the similarities is often - though not always - harshly judged in Originality.

[dextercorvia]

I'm going to watch this one carefully. If something suddenly springs out of the shadowy recesses of my mind, I will make an attempt. I've always felt like this class had more potential than a 1 level dip.

[Elfstone]

I think im going to throw my hat into the ring for this round. First time. Shadowdancer looks like fun.

[The Gilded Duke]

Already thinking of two builds.

[Hunter Killer]

I have a perfect build that I can whip up but the book is reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally obscure. It's actually official Wizards material and also 3.5, however, I'd be surprised if any of you have heard of it.

Can someone who is going to judge let me know if they're docking for obscure material (because I'd rather not bother with it if it'll get me bent over and poked in the Elegance area)?

Furthermore, would Shadow Jump take a Standard Action or a Move Action to use? Looks like it doesn't specify in the ability, so normally that means Standard, but I thought I'd get a second opinion.

[OMG PONIES]

This is the Internet, friend. There are frightening new depths to "obscure." Also, I vote "the Elegance area" for favorite new euphemism. :smalltongue:

[Hunter Killer]

I actually have a physically copy. It's one of a type which are all pretty rare. I'd rather not say which one because I found that it is quite easy to get with a quick Google search, and that would give away my plans. :smallamused:

[TroubleBrewing]

This is the Internet, friend. There are frightening new depths to "obscure."

Truly, truly frightening depths.

Welcome to the new chairman, and I'm in for this one.

[Private-Prinny]

Furthermore, would Shadow Jump take a Standard Action or a Move Action to use? Looks like it doesn't specify in the ability, so normally that means Standard, but I thought I'd get a second opinion.

Shadow Jump specifies that it works as if you used Dimension Door, so it takes a standard action and ends your turn. The real question is whether or not you can bring people with you.

[Venger]

I have a perfect build that I can whip up but the book is reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally obscure. It's actually official Wizards material and also 3.5, however, I'd be surprised if any of you have heard of it.

Can someone who is going to judge let me know if they're docking for obscure material (because I'd rather not bother with it if it'll get me bent over and poked in the Elegance area)?

exemplars of evil?

you're under no obligation to reveal, of course, it'll just bug me. I'll find out eventually

[Dusk Eclipse]

Another problem is that it doesn't specify the effective CL (unless SU abilities have a ruling on that)... and now that killed my first draft for a build... damn :smallsigh:

[BillyBobJoe]

I'll try to get a build in for this on time.

[DaragosKitsune]

I think I'll judge again this round. I'll dig up my judging criteria sometime tomorrow.

[Draz74]

Just to clarify: I assume we're interpreting the Summon Shadow ability with "text over table"? Because the SRD Table still uses the 3.0 version of the ability, where you summoned multiple shadows rather than having one Shadow's HD progress.

[Zipding]

As a sidenote its normally considered poor form to discuss possible build elements before builds are released. As this can affect their originality scores and is generally not always the best idea.



Sorry about that, I'm pretty sure that what I posted would have been slashed for originality as it already was in an official WotC book. Even then, it would be an absolute nightmare to figure out.

Again, sorry about that. I have no idea how to make it work anyway.

[Amphetryon]

Just to clarify: I assume we're interpreting the Summon Shadow ability with "text over table"? Because the SRD Table still uses the 3.0 version of the ability, where you summoned multiple shadows rather than having one Shadow's HD progress.You assume correctly.

Thanks, again, for all the "welcome to the chairman's spot" comments, guys.

[Venger]

Another problem is that it doesn't specify the effective CL (unless SU abilities have a ruling on that)... and now that killed my first draft for a build... damn :smallsigh:

I dunno about carrying people with you, but SU abilities usually treat your CL as your class level when they print a CL. CL determines distance, but shadowdancer gives its own distance, I think you can take people with you as that one arc of OOTS demonstrated with that shadowdancer and his partner who tried to burn down that hotel. I seem to remember him shadow hopping away with his partner (although I know OOTS isn't the best source for rules questions, I know it usually sticks to RAW)

[Hunter Killer]

Ah. I forgot: Welcome to the chairman slot, Amphetryon! I thought I loved you for picking the Shadowdancer, and now... I hate you. :smallwink:

[Kesnit]

I like this PrC, and look forward to seeing what people will do using more than just 1 level of it.

I'm throwing my hat in to judge. I've been lurking this contest for some time, waiting for the right time to hop back in. This looks like it.

My old computer (that had my judging criteria) died, so I'll have to see if I can dig it up from somewhere. If not, I'll have to retype them.

Edit: OK, so they got lost in the computer death, and I can't find a post where I wrote them. So here goes...

Originality: This one is mostly self-explanatory. Do you use any known tricks/builds? Each build is judged on it's own (mostly), so even if two people use the same class, I look at them as how they used the class. If both used it the same way, I'll take a deduction. If they use the class in different ways, that's different enough to not take an Originality hit from me.

Power: This is based off the "type" of class the SI is. The more powerful (i.e. caster v. melee) the SI, the higher the expected power. Since this is a "Rogue-ish" PrC, the basis will be a Rogue's power.

Elegance: I hate dips, which I define as taking less than 3 levels of a base class. Dips will lose points from me, for each dip. (Have 2 base classes with 2 levels each? That's 1 point off right away.) Dipping PrC's is another matter, and I do not deduct for that unless you have a string of PrC dips. Another criteria, which I am sorry to say is hard to describe, is if the build just "fits." If everything flows together to make the build work and everything (or most everything) builds on itself. The more "jumbled" and "jerky" the build, the lower the score will be.

Use of Secret Ingredient: I would like to see at least 9 levels of the PrC. Less than 9 will get a deduction. (.5 for every 2 levels below 9 that you do not take. 7 levels is -.5; 5 levels is -1.) This may be waived if the build REALLY shows that it needs less levels, but do not count on getting that save. The other thing I look for is, when I look at the build, does it say "this is a SI build," as opposed to "this is a [other class] build with the SI tacked on."

[Zipding]

I'm almost done my build already. Just need to finish the tactics, recommended equipment, then backstory. I think it's a good thing that I can kick out characters really quickly, as I already have an idea for another build.

[Venger]

I like this PrC, and look forward to seeing what people will do using more than just 1 level of it.

I'm throwing my hat in to judge. I've been lurking this contest for some time, waiting for the right time to hop back in. This looks like it.

My old computer (that had my judging criteria) died, so I'll have to see if I can dig it up from somewhere. If not, I'll have to retype them.

Edit: OK, so they got lost in the computer death, and I can't find a post where I wrote them. So here goes...

Originality: This one is mostly self-explanatory. Do you use any known tricks/builds? Each build is judged on it's own (mostly), so even if two people use the same class, I look at them as how they used the class. If both used it the same way, I'll take a deduction. If they use the class in different ways, that's different enough to not take an Originality hit from me.

Power: This is based off the "type" of class the SI is. The more powerful (i.e. caster v. melee) the SI, the higher the expected power. Since this is a "Rogue-ish" PrC, the basis will be a Rogue's power.

Elegance: I hate dips, which I define as taking less than 3 levels of a base class. Dips will lose points from me, for each dip. (Have 2 base classes with 2 levels each? That's 1 point off right away.) Dipping PrC's is another matter, and I do not deduct for that unless you have a string of PrC dips. Another criteria, which I am sorry to say is hard to describe, is if the build just "fits." If everything flows together to make the build work and everything (or most everything) builds on itself. The more "jumbled" and "jerky" the build, the lower the score will be.

Use of Secret Ingredient: I would like to see at least 9 levels of the PrC. Less than 9 will get a deduction. (.5 for every 2 levels below 9 that you do not take. 7 levels is -.5; 5 levels is -1.) This may be waived if the build REALLY shows that it needs less levels, but do not count on getting that save. The other thing I look for is, when I look at the build, does it say "this is a SI build," as opposed to "this is a [other class] build with the SI tacked on."

okay, beating a rogue powerwise shouldn't be too hard. yikes, 9 levels of shadowdancer is brutal. with 9 levels, one might theoretically go for 10 for imp. evasion, but at that level the utility of imp. evasion not much higher than normal evasion with good dex. what is "really showing" that it needs less levels to you? demonstrating that what one needs from a complimentary class comes at x lvl which there isn't room for with 9+ of the SI?

I get what you mean though. obviously having a non SI class w/more levels than the SI's bad form and all.

just fits is obviously difficult to define, which is cool. can you define "string" of PrC dips though? how many constitutes a string? what is your criteria for dipping in a 10 lvl prc? a 5 lvl prc?

I've got a build pretty much down pat, I'm just ironing out skillreqs, but it looks like I might lose a point or two here (which is what my questions are about)


I'm almost done my build already. Just need to finish the tactics, recommended equipment, then backstory. I think it's a good thing that I can kick out characters really quickly, as I already have an idea for another build.

how much should we talk about equipment? should we only mention things that are "vital" (mechanically/flavourwise) or everything that would help it shine? I've seen it done both ways. the cancer mage entries were sorta gear-heavy and the tem et nu guys were pretty light. is it just personal preference or are there rules? I didn't notice much in the guidelines

[Zaq]

Huh. I've never really looked at Shadowdancer before. ("Like, you ever look at your Shadowdancer, man? I mean, really looked at it?") I have to say, I'm not that inspired. There's some low-hanging fruit, but we all know that's not what Iron Chef is about.

For now, I'm watching. I'm feeling chastened by my failure to complete last round's judging, so I don't want to make any time commitments I'm not positive I can keep. Therefore, I don't think I'll be judging, since I'm not sure what my schedule looks like yet. If I come up with something inspired, I may compete, but it's not doing much for me right now.

[Hunter Killer]

Venger,

The equipment is personal preference. It's not a required element to a submission. Just like story and adaption sections, it can push the build over the top and get you more points. However, you have to be careful not to be too reliant on gear or over-bloat a gear section if you have one because I've seen docks for it.

Taking the full 10 levels of the class almost always gets you points, but taking less doesn't always hurt. Depends on the judge. Most will dock you if you take less than 6 and have more non-SI levels in another PrC (or finish a 5 level PrC but not the SI).

You might not want to ask questions that are so closely build related... If a lot of people know that less levels of the SI are being taken by another contestant, or other important build details, it may skew the build process.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I would like to throw my hat in as a judge this round. It's late here so I will post my criteria sometime tomorrow.

[Venger]

Venger,

The equipment is personal preference. It's not a required element to a submission. Just like story and adaption sections, it can push the build over the top and get you more points. However, you have to be careful not to be too reliant on gear or over-bloat a gear section if you have one because I've seen docks for it.

Taking the full 10 levels of the class almost always gets you points, but taking less doesn't always hurt. Depends on the judge. Most will dock you if you take less than 6 and have more non-SI levels in another PrC (or finish a 5 level PrC but not the SI).

You might not want to ask questions that are so closely build related... If a lot of people know that less levels of the SI are being taken by another contestant, or other important build details, it may skew the build process.

Okay. That's what I figured. Thanks for the advice.

That's what I've generally observed, but it's nice to have it backed by someone with more experience.

I didn't mean to give anything away or influence other peoples' builds. I just saw people ask the judges about their styles in the last thread so I thought it was par for the course.

Anyway, I'm done with the crunch for mine, I just need to work on the fluff.

[Kesnit]

what is "really showing" that it needs less levels to you?

Sort of a cross-over to Elegance, but one where all the levels flow together so well that I cannot image the build with any other class combo. As I said in my criteria, don't count on being able to pull that off. It may not sound like much, but to me, it is a very high bar.


can you define "string" of PrC dips though? how many constitutes a string? what is your criteria for dipping in a 10 lvl prc? a 5 lvl prc?

Dipping a 10-level PrC is the same as dipping base classes - less than 3 levels. Using only 1 level of a 5-level PrC is a dip. A string of dips is if you dip more than 2 PrC's. (Dipping 2 is fine. Dipping 3 will lose a little.)


but it looks like I might lose a point or two here (which is what my questions are about)

Keep in mind, those are only my criteria. Other judges will see things differently. Also, don't be afraid to lose points, if you feel you can make up the difference elsewhere. (You can lose .5 in Elegance for a dip, but get a 5 in Originality.)

[Akto]

Hey guys, long timer lurker on this competetion, was planning on entering last time, but that Scion just left me drained... :P

Anyways, Shadowdancer is an interresting class, and i want to try and join in on the fun this time around =)

[kestrel404]

Well, I saw what the SI was this morning and now I've finished the crunch of the build...

Well, that's still only about 30% done, but still it's a record for me.

[Venger]

Sort of a cross-over to Elegance, but one where all the levels flow together so well that I cannot image the build with any other class combo. As I said in my criteria, don't count on being able to pull that off. It may not sound like much, but to me, it is a very high bar.



Dipping a 10-level PrC is the same as dipping base classes - less than 3 levels. Using only 1 level of a 5-level PrC is a dip. A string of dips is if you dip more than 2 PrC's. (Dipping 2 is fine. Dipping 3 will lose a little.)



Keep in mind, those are only my criteria. Other judges will see things differently. Also, don't be afraid to lose points, if you feel you can make up the difference elsewhere. (You can lose .5 in Elegance for a dip, but get a 5 in Originality.)

okay, that makes sense. well, I'll keep my fingers crossed

thanks for the clarification about dipping. I know it's sorta subjective and different for everybody. it's helpful to know as much as possible about judges' styles before finalizing things.

Okay, sure thing. I appreciate you explaining your criteria, I'm sure it'll be helpful to all the contestants for our builds.

all right, I'll do my thing and hope for the best, don't wanna give anything away. I had a lot of fun building this character

[Mr.Smashy]

I have lurked in these competitions for some time, but have never really been drawn to act. However, The shadow dancer is one of my favorite PRC's, and I would be more than willing to compete in this one. I already have some AWESOME ideas. Just juicy.
Hail, the new chairman has arrived.

[Diefje]

I have a cunning plan.

I do have to flesh it out a bit more before I can say I'm competing for sure. So we'll see. This Secret Ingredient is very strange (in the "why would you take this over X" sense) again the more I look at it. Gonna have to do some work to make all levels count.

Also, welcome new chairperson. May your chair be stable and soft and provide sufficient support for your back.

[Venger]

I have a cunning plan.

I do have to flesh it out a bit more before I can say I'm competing for sure. So we'll see. This Secret Ingredient is very strange (in the "why would you take this over X" sense) again the more I look at it. Gonna have to do some work to make all levels count.

Also, welcome new chairperson. May your chair be stable and soft and provide sufficient support for your back.

if you build prince Edmund, you win 1000 internets.

the SIs all have a bit of that going on though, for the most part, in a vacuum assuming you could use whatever classes you want, most people wouldn't make the iron chef classes the "meat" of their dish. I really wish shadowdancer gave full SA (or even partial SA), I think it'd see a lot more use. as-is, it's hard to synergise with other classes, especially as one of the DMG classes, they were expecting you to enter as a rogue.

[OMG PONIES]

You crazy whippersnappers! Back in my day, we took until the deadline to submit our builds, and we LIKED it! :smalltongue:

[Akal Saris]

exemplars of evil?

you're under no obligation to reveal, of course, it'll just bug me. I'll find out eventually

I was going to put my money on some really obscure Eberron book, like Secrets of Xen'Drik.

[Venger]

I was going to put my money on some really obscure Eberron book, like Secrets of Xen'Drik.

secrets of xen'drik, oddly enough, has garnered something of a reputation for being one of the most obscure books (like ghostwalk or serpent kingdoms) whereas no one ever talks about exemplars of evil, uses any of the stuff in it, or mentions how it is obscure, so that's why it was my guess

[The_Werebear]

Interesting. If I can't come up with an idea in a few days, I'll throw in for judging this one.

[Diefje]

if you build prince Edmund, you win 1000 internets.

Name my shadow Baldrick, have only crappy scores, and Profession (Throne Usurping) and Craft(Cunning Plan)....

[Venger]

Name my shadow Baldrick, have only crappy scores, and Profession (Throne Usurping) and Craft(Cunning Plan)....

you even have a title for the build!

[Z3ro]

Weak. You would have to pick one of my favorite PrCs during nanowrimo. Sadly, I can neither compete nor judge.

[Zipding]

Ugh, after finishing the crunch for the build and tactics, I feel that I may not have optimized this enough. Hopefully I can pull this back with a backstory.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have no ideas that are not either trite, anticipated and trite, or exceedingly cheesy, anticipated, and trite. Well, there was the one that was trite, trite, trite, cheesy, and trite... but that's a different skit. :smallbiggrin:

I'm 99% certain that the four builds I have in my mind are the four most iconic Shadowdancers ever.

I mean, the class itself railroads you. If you want to get into the class with ANY speed, at least in time to finish the thing, your feats are already chosen for you. Then, if you're going to take advantage of the class abilities... it pretty much predetermines that your focus is stealth with a side of 'needing a flanking buddy'.

Since it doesn't advance casting, I doubt we'll be seeing many casters, although I anticipate Shadowcaster showing up for an *ACTUAL* submission, rather than a half-arsed bonus. Probably at least one 'sneak-gish' build as a bid for a higher Originality score.

And, of course, the inevitable Shadowpounce build or three. I foresee this being a trade-off... scoring down on Originality for a higher Power and UoSI scores.

[Amphetryon]

Could we ease off on the speculation a tad there, please?

[Draz74]

Weak. You would have to pick one of my favorite PrCs during nanowrimo. Sadly, I can neither compete nor judge.

Hey you! Get off the internet and get back to writing! Do you want to hit 50k words, or NOT!?!? :smalltongue:

[Lateral]

All right, I'll give this a try.

[Zipding]

Could we ease off on the speculation a tad there, please?

I apologize for any speculation I have done, I did not mean to speculate.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Here are the criteria I will be judging by:

Originality: This category really only has two things for me. One, was your build similar to any of the other builds submitted, and/or was it sticking to the standard trends/entry methods for the niche the SI fills? There is no need to re-invent the wheel, but don’t just leave it there. Two, I will deduct points if your build uses obvious tricks/exploits, particularly with your items (see Power).

Power: How does your build stack up, power wise, to other builds focusing on similar objectives? Basically what Tier does your build fall into, and is it better than the base? I will deduct points for relying on your items more than your actual class abilities rather than in conjunction with your class abilities. Some slack will be given at low levels where it is somewhat required but will be judged harshly at the higher levels. I will be looking at specific points in the build, levels 6/10/15/20 and the 'sweet spot' (if there is one). Bonus points will be given if most or all of a build's power come from tricks involving the SI.

Elegance: Simply how well the build flows together and how well does it mesh with your fluff and backstory? Does your build progress well? Does it avoid requiring flaws and variant rules (not including published Alt Class Features like Racial Subs)? Do you avoid overly dipping classes like cleric 1 that are obviously for bonus feats/class abilities? Dipping will be penalized, but dips that make thematic sense (ranger dipping barbarian) will be penalized less than dips that do not (rogue dipping paladin). More importantly, the build should make sense at all levels, 1-20. Maintaining flavor and flow through the build will be rewarded. Does the build translate well from one person into a party? Do you need others to function? Or will others just get in your way? I will deduct points from both elegance and originality if you are using Taint and/or Dark Chaos shuffle. On the topic of what sources you can use, as far as I'm concerned, if it improves your submission, use it. Also, PLEASE CITE ALL SOURCES USED! (page numbers also help for ease but are not required)

Use of the Secret Ingredient: Does it make sense for you to take the SI? Do you synergize the abilities the SI gives you with others in the build or are they just an afterthought? Does your strength come from your SI or is it just the topping to the Sunday that is your build? If you didn't use all levels of the SI (and you don't always have to (but it always helps)), do you have good reasoning why not?

[Zipding]

Hooray! Almost done! I should be able to get the build up tonight, I already have an idea for another build that I should be able to get in soon as well. This is certainly not a PrC that I'm familiar with, but oddly enough, I have more ideas for this one than for the Scion of Tem Et Nu.

Build submitted, time to see if I can get my second idea to work.

[TheGeckoKing]

I might actually enter this one.......my first Iron Chef submission! :smallbiggrin:
I have a very weird build that I might as well throw out, simply to see if people like it.

[Zipding]

I might actually enter this one.......my first Iron Chef submission! :smallbiggrin:
I have a very weird build that I might as well throw out, simply to see if people like it.

Welcome! This is my second and my mind is just swimming with ideas here. With regards to your weird build, I have a pretty weird one as well. We shall duel to see which one has the weirdest build!

[phatpack]

Being a brand new forum member, I am not sure if I am allowed to compete. However I will give it an attempt.

Now off to say my hello.

[Lateral]

Being a brand new forum member, I am not sure if I am allowed to compete. However I will give it an attempt.

There's no restrictions on how long you have to have been here to compete. This isn't that kind of forum. :smallsmile:

[vhfforever]

I believe I will be competing. I already have a build worked up in my mind and written out, I just have to go and finish all the fluff surrounding it, now.

[Zipding]

Most of the crunch is done on my second build already. All that's left is the fluff, tactics and recommended equipement.

[Akal Saris]

secrets of xen'drik, oddly enough, has garnered something of a reputation for being one of the most obscure books (like ghostwalk or serpent kingdoms) whereas no one ever talks about exemplars of evil, uses any of the stuff in it, or mentions how it is obscure, so that's why it was my guess

Secrets of Xendrik was the last 3.5 book I've gotten. Ghostwalk has been too obscure even for me :P And yeah...only exemplars of evil material I've ever used was that rogue acf...

[TroubleBrewing]

I've really never realized how many of the Shadowdancer's abilities evoke a feeling of "Well... So?" :smallannoyed:

[Draz74]

I've really never realized how many of the Shadowdancer's abilities evoke a feeling of "Well... So?" :smallannoyed:

Yeah. I've despaired of coming up with anything interesting.

[phatpack]

There's no restrictions on how long you have to have been here to compete. This isn't that kind of forum. :smallsmile:
Nice...cause I was concerned as I have been to those kinds of forums.

I have my build, it should be fun and hopefully somewhat original.

[TroubleBrewing]

Yeah. I've despaired of coming up with anything interesting.

That's pretty much where I'm at. I've tried dozens of angles of approach, and all of them leave me wondering "Why in Pelor's name am I taking THIS class, as opposed to literally any other sneaky class?"

[gbprime]

Being a brand new forum member, I am not sure if I am allowed to compete. However I will give it an attempt.

Now off to say my hello.

No restrictions at all. And total Iron Chef newbs have won in the past. Just read up on past competitions, do your homework, and present your best!

Oh, and welcome and good luck and stuff. :smallbiggrin:

[gbprime]

Yeah. I've despaired of coming up with anything interesting.

Well I came up with something awesome. So I'm competing. :smallcool:

Now to format the dang thing...

[BobVosh]

I want to compete but I hate this class.
So I'm going judge on ya'll.
Good luck justifying this PrC for UoSI :D

[Private-Prinny]

That's pretty much where I'm at. I've tried dozens of angles of approach, and all of them leave me wondering "Why in Pelor's name am I taking THIS class, as opposed to literally any other sneaky class?"

I have the opposite problem. I'm trying to build around Shadowdancer, but so far all I can think is "No, that's way too obvious."

[TroubleBrewing]

For Pelor's sake, why is dismissing the shadow companion penalized at all, let alone with an XP cost!?

[deuxhero]

For Pelor's sake, why is dismissing the shadow companion penalized at all, let alone with an XP cost!?

Sakurai WotC: *Laughs*

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Hey half considering a build just want to check on something. Didn't see a CL for their Dimension Door ability does that mean it's equal to HD?

[Maethirion]

I've never been a particularly good optimizer, but I need the practice so I may as well give it a shot.

I have a vague build in mind... but I can't work out how to fit in everything I want to fit into it. Its rather frustrating.

[Amphetryon]

Being a brand new forum member, I am not sure if I am allowed to compete. However I will give it an attempt.

Now off to say my hello.
Welcome! The more, the merrier!

[kestrel404]

Hey half considering a build just want to check on something. Didn't see a CL for their Dimension Door ability does that mean it's equal to HD?

Multiple people have asked this. I think we need a definitive ruling - I'm pretty sure it should be at Class level.

[flabort]

That's pretty much where I'm at. I've tried dozens of angles of approach, and all of them leave me wondering "Why in Pelor's name am I taking THIS class, as opposed to literally any other sneaky class?"

retort: "Why in the name of Nerull am I taking this class?!"

I think I have an idea, but I doubt it would work. :smalltongue: I'm expecting 1s, and 2s, in all categories, with maybe a 3 from the nice judge.


For Pelor's sake, why is dismissing the shadow companion penalized at all, let alone with an XP cost!?

That was my first thought. Except, again, for Nerull's sake.
I'm thinking I may risk a UoSI penalty for not using that, since not even the augment summoning feat seems to apply. NOTHING seems to be able to apply and work with that ability.


Hey half considering a build just want to check on something. Didn't see a CL for their Dimension Door ability does that mean it's equal to HD?

Don't see a caster level on their Silent Image effect, either. :smallfurious:

[Amphetryon]

Okay, we want a ruling? I suppose that's now my purview.

OFFICIAL RULING ON CL EFFECTS, BARRING EXPLICIT RAW TO THE CONTRARY:
For purposes of this contest, consider a Shadowdancer's caster level to be equal to the character's effective Shadowdancer level for Shadow Jump and Shadow Illusion.

[Venger]

Here are the criteria I will be judging by:

Originality: This category really only has two things for me. One, was your build similar to any of the other builds submitted, and/or was it sticking to the standard trends/entry methods for the niche the SI fills? There is no need to re-invent the wheel, but don’t just leave it there. Two, I will deduct points if your build uses obvious tricks/exploits, particularly with your items (see Power).

Power: How does your build stack up, power wise, to other builds focusing on similar objectives? Basically what Tier does your build fall into, and is it better than the base? I will deduct points for relying on your items more than your actual class abilities rather than in conjunction with your class abilities. Some slack will be given at low levels where it is somewhat required but will be judged harshly at the higher levels. I will be looking at specific points in the build, levels 6/10/15/20 and the 'sweet spot' (if there is one). Bonus points will be given if most or all of a build's power come from tricks involving the SI.

Elegance: Simply how well the build flows together and how well does it mesh with your fluff and backstory? Does your build progress well? Does it avoid requiring flaws and variant rules (not including published Alt Class Features like Racial Subs)? Do you avoid overly dipping classes like cleric 1 that are obviously for bonus feats/class abilities? Dipping will be penalized, but dips that make thematic sense (ranger dipping barbarian) will be penalized less than dips that do not (rogue dipping paladin). More importantly, the build should make sense at all levels, 1-20. Maintaining flavor and flow through the build will be rewarded. Does the build translate well from one person into a party? Do you need others to function? Or will others just get in your way? I will deduct points from both elegance and originality if you are using Taint and/or Dark Chaos shuffle. On the topic of what sources you can use, as far as I'm concerned, if it improves your submission, use it. Also, PLEASE CITE ALL SOURCES USED! (page numbers also help for ease but are not required)

Use of the Secret Ingredient: Does it make sense for you to take the SI? Do you synergize the abilities the SI gives you with others in the build or are they just an afterthought? Does your strength come from your SI or is it just the topping to the Sunday that is your build? If you didn't use all levels of the SI (and you don't always have to (but it always helps)), do you have good reasoning why not?

great! thanks for the criteria good to know the rules ahead of time


Welcome! This is my second and my mind is just swimming with ideas here. With regards to your weird build, I have a pretty weird one as well. We shall duel to see which one has the weirdest build!

I've gotta throw my hat into the ring for this sub-challenge as well. I'm pretty sure I've got the weirdest build (although I would be happy to be proven wrong since the amount of weirdness one can cram into a primarily shadowdancer build is limited)


Secrets of Xendrik was the last 3.5 book I've gotten. Ghostwalk has been too obscure even for me :P And yeah...only exemplars of evil material I've ever used was that rogue acf...

lol, yeah, that's why EoE was my guess


I've really never realized how many of the Shadowdancer's abilities evoke a feeling of "Well... So?" :smallannoyed:

I know what you mean. shadow illusion always elicited that reaction from me. silent image? once per day? at 10th level? (at the earliest) don't break the game, there.


Nice...cause I was concerned as I have been to those kinds of forums.

I have my build, it should be fun and hopefully somewhat original.

welcome aboard! this is my first IC challenge too. the table Amphetryon so helpfully posted saves a lot of time. I second looking at past challenges when it comes to getting your juices flowing, and seeing what sort of build suits your style best. the easiest way to go (I think) is to try to get the most points in one particular area in order to pull your average up. originality and power will be a little difficult with shadowdancer (since it dictates a fair amount of your build requiring hide and move silently as class skills and requiring 3 feats) so we'll probably see a certain amount of overlap among most of the entries, but the others should be simple enough to pull off.


That's pretty much where I'm at. I've tried dozens of angles of approach, and all of them leave me wondering "Why in Pelor's name am I taking THIS class, as opposed to literally any other sneaky class?"

teehee. shadowdancer's sneaky like that. I've always especially enjoyed its bizarre dartboard weapon proficiencies. my head hasn't spun that much since I saw what monks could bonk you with.



I have the opposite problem. I'm trying to build around Shadowdancer, but so far all I can think is "No, that's way too obvious."

shadowdancer is determined not to make anything easy for anybody, isn't it? the obvious choices are out and the not-obvious choices have better things to go into than shadowdancer, making it hard to justify



For Pelor's sake, why is dismissing the shadow companion penalized at all, let alone with an XP cost!?
because, like familiars, WotC thinks that shadow companions are more powerful than they actually are and put this in as a balancing factor to make up for the vast cosmic power that having a gimped shadow follow you around offers


Weak. You would have to pick one of my favorite PrCs during nanowrimo. Sadly, I can neither compete nor judge.
I had the opposite thought process. I did my crunch on monday and fluff yesterday and submitted it around midnight so I could get it out of the way and focus on nano. if I'd left it till the 11th, I would've had build ideas distracting me while I was trying to write.


Okay, we want a ruling? I suppose that's now my purview.

OFFICIAL RULING ON CL EFFECTS, BARRING EXPLICIT RAW TO THE CONTRARY:
For purposes of this contest, consider a Shadowdancer's caster level to be equal to the character's effective Shadowdancer level for Shadow Jump and Shadow Illusion.

thanks

[OMG PONIES]

OFFICIAL RULING ON CL EFFECTS, BARRING EXPLICIT RAW TO THE CONTRARY:
For purposes of this contest, consider a Shadowdancer's caster level to be equal to the character's effective Shadowdancer level for Shadow Jump and Shadow Illusion.

And what, pray tell, is this competition's definition of "effective Shadowdancer level?" Is there a scenario in which it could differ from a character's class level (aka actual levels in Shadowdancer)?

*dodges Internet*

On an only-slightly-related note, I've got two builds stewing around that I think hit the Originality front quite nicely, and one that's just for lulz. Power on all three is underwhelming at best.

[Amphetryon]

And what, pray tell, is this competition's definition of "effective Shadowdancer level?" Is there a scenario in which it could differ from a character's class level (aka actual levels in Shadowdancer)?

*dodges Internet*

On an only-slightly-related note, I've got two builds stewing around that I think hit the Originality front quite nicely, and one that's just for lulz. Power on all three is underwhelming at best.

I'm aware of a couple of ways that "effective" Shadowdancer level may be different than actual levels in Shadowdancer. Some of them are even from outside Unearthed Arcana. I'll bet you are too, OMG. :smallwink:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Okay, we want a ruling? I suppose that's now my purview.

OFFICIAL RULING ON CL EFFECTS, BARRING EXPLICIT RAW TO THE CONTRARY:
For purposes of this contest, consider a Shadowdancer's caster level to be equal to the character's effective Shadowdancer level for Shadow Jump and Shadow Illusion.

Do you consider this RAW to the contrary?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

I know that things being based just on levels in the applicable PrC is the norm so your ruling is understandable. Also there may be an actual blanket rule covering spell-likes from PrCs.

Re: Why in Invisible Christopher Walkins' name . . . Ya I've shot down a bunch of ideas on the grounds that a mix that an equal mix of Swordsage and Expert would be better than Shadowdancer levels. I might have something though, something that works because it shouldn't have the things you lose by taking SD.

[Urpriest]

I'm aware of a couple of ways that "effective" Shadowdancer level may be different than actual levels in Shadowdancer. Some of them are even from outside Unearthed Arcana. I'll bet you are too, OMG. :smallwink:

It could also be that most levels of Shadowdancer are not actually effective levels of Shadowdancer, being rather ineffective levels. Badumdum.

[Zipding]

I should be able to get my build up sometime tomorrow. I couldn't really work on it until now, Physics Lab due tomorrow and I had to finish it up.

[flabort]

yeah, actually, this is going pretty fast. Tomorrow for me, too.

Just need one more feat, fill out some skill points + finish the table, and more description of how the build works/adaptation section.

I just know I'm going to be hit with a huge elegance penalty, even if what I used gains me power or originality. And I have no idea whether it will really gain power, or lose it. :smalltongue:
And I'm DEFINITELY taking a hit to UoSI. :smallamused: Nothing I can do to help that.

[Zipding]

yeah, actually, this is going pretty fast. Tomorrow for me, too.

Just need one more feat, fill out some skill points + finish the table, and more description of how the build works/adaptation section.

I just know I'm going to be hit with a huge elegance penalty, even if what I used gains me power or originality. And I have no idea whether it will really gain power, or lose it. :smalltongue:
And I'm DEFINITELY taking a hit to UoSI. :smallamused: Nothing I can do to help that.

I just need to get all the fluff and how to use the build done, then I can send it to Amphetryon.

[DeAnno]

Is there any consensus to how many HD the Shadow has at level 9? The DMG claims 6 HD, but that would imply a Shadow with less HD than a normal Shadow is supposed to have at level 3 (2 HD instead of the minimum, 3 HD). Various other interpretations might guess the Shadow would have 7 HD (base plus 4 additional) or 9 HD (perhaps the DMG meant to say 6 HD more?). Since the SRD and not the DMG is the explicit source for the competition, it's sort of cloudy.

Aside from that potential tangle, this is a pretty hard PRC to work with. The problem with some of the abilities in the past few months isn't really that they're bad, it's that many of them are X/day and could probably be gotten elsewhere pretty much at will (Shadow Jump, I'm looking at you).

[Venger]

Is there any consensus to how many HD the Shadow has at level 9? The DMG claims 6 HD, but that would imply a Shadow with less HD than a normal Shadow is supposed to have at level 3 (2 HD instead of the minimum, 3 HD). Various other interpretations might guess the Shadow would have 7 HD (base plus 4 additional) or 9 HD (perhaps the DMG meant to say 6 HD more?). Since the SRD and not the DMG is the explicit source for the competition, it's sort of cloudy.

Aside from that potential tangle, this is a pretty hard PRC to work with. The problem with some of the abilities in the past few months isn't really that they're bad, it's that many of them are X/day and could probably be gotten elsewhere pretty much at will (Shadow Jump, I'm looking at you).

well, you can interpret the "2HD per 3 levels" to include 3rd level, giving you a 2HD shadow at lvl 3, 4 at 6 and then 6 at 9. you could also use an out of the box shadow which'd give you 1 more HD at each of those levels. it's unlikely to matter much since your shadow can't really do anything.

I think this is another one for you, Amphetryon. the RAW has failed us. your verdict?

[Zipding]

How many builds do we have submitted so far? I count 2 including myself and we have a bunch of other builds being worked on right now.

[The Gilded Duke]

Could we get a ruling on how many HD the shadow has? It may actually effect some builds.

[Darthteej]

My gauntlet's thrown down, my hat's in the ring, I'm going all out, take no prisoners, got the Eye of the Tiger, etc. etc. First IC entry, and Savage Species looks mighty attractive from where I'm standing. Another vote for shadow HD ruling, because it matters to my build. The chairman is dead, all hail the chairman.

[Venger]

How many builds do we have submitted so far? I count 2 including myself and we have a bunch of other builds being worked on right now.

I submitted mine yesterday, so you can add me to your tally

[Zipding]

I submitted mine yesterday, so you can add me to your tally

From what I've seen so far, we are the only ones who have submitted builds, and I'm almost done my second already :smalleek:
The only thing left now is a backstory, hopefully I can come up with a good backstory like my other one. The build should be submitted tomorrow.

[Diefje]

You'd think there's a Speed category.

I'm getting there. My idea is working out so far, so I will be sending in something. Barring real life or (*GASP*) complications with the build of course. So far I'm pretty excited...

... Under the circumstances... Stupid Shadowdancer... Levels 2-10...grumble grumble...

[Venger]

From what I've seen so far, we are the only ones who have submitted builds, and I'm almost done my second already :smalleek:
The only thing left now is a backstory, hopefully I can come up with a good backstory like my other one. The build should be submitted tomorrow.

wat. we are allowed to submit multiple builds?



You'd think there's a Speed category.

I'm getting there. My idea is working out so far, so I will be sending in something. Barring real life or (*GASP*) complications with the build of course. So far I'm pretty excited...

... Under the circumstances... Stupid Shadowdancer... Levels 2-10...grumble grumble...

well, since all the builds are submitted anonymously and posted simultaneously, that would be largely moot :smallbiggrin:

yeah, it's a shame that shadowdancer was before the day of 3 and 5 level PrCs. HiPS is all that one would want from it in a non-shadowdancer-centric build, and there's little incentive to stay in for longer than 2 levels (or 3 if you really want that shadow) it would've been on all stealthy guys' lists if it were just the first 3 levels (and of course didn't require 3 feats and so many skills) but 10 levels of what we have is... yeah.

while I know you can't mean what I think you mean, I would be kind of curious to see how the judges reacted in the UoTSI category to a build with only 1 level of shadowdancer in it

[Diefje]

wat. we are allowed to submit multiple builds?

Yes. It's just generally better to submit 1 awesome build, than a few good ones, or even many crappy ones. If you want to, you can split your focus on multiple builds.

[gbprime]

while I know you can't mean what I think you mean, I would be kind of curious to see how the judges reacted in the UoTSI category to a build with only 1 level of shadowdancer in it

In a word... poorly. Not completing all 10 levels is always a hit. Even just 9/10 is a quarter or half point off. And if you just "dip" the special ingredient, I can see getting a flat 1 for UoSI score. So you'd better pull off all 5's in the power and originality categories if you hope to win, and good luck with that!


"dip" = one or two levels in a class. Like taking Rogue 2 just for evasion, or Fighter 2 just for the bonus feats.

[Venger]

In a word... poorly. Not completing all 10 levels is always a hit. Even just 9/10 is a quarter or half point off. And if you just "dip" the special ingredient, I can see getting a flat 1 for UoSI score. So you'd better pull off all 5's in the power and originality categories if you hope to win, and good luck with that!


"dip" = one or two levels in a class. Like taking Rogue 2 just for evasion, or Fighter 2 just for the bonus feats.

oh, I'm sure it would. I was more just reacting to him joking about only being able to "justify" 1 level of shadowdancer on his guy/gal. I'm pretty sure his doesn't just have 1 lvl of shadowdancer in there



Yes. It's just generally better to submit 1 awesome build, than a few good ones, or even many crappy ones. If you want to, you can split your focus on multiple builds.

I agree. I had one fun if somewhat silly idea for a second build, but don't have enough time/energy to do it. I'll say what it is when the builds are unveiled so I don't spoil anyone's plans if anybody else had the same idea. fairly certain it would've scored high points for power and originality even if it would've gotten slammed pretty hard for elegance and UoTSI.

[Akal Saris]

Holy cow, I just had a burst of inspiration! I think I might have a fun build idea if I can find the time to build the character :smallbiggrin:

[Amphetryon]

Holy cow, I just had a burst of inspiration! I think I might have a fun build idea if I can find the time to build the character :smallbiggrin:
And all who gazed upon it, trembled. . . .

[flabort]

So, I think we still need that ruling on Shadow HD, plus I ran into another (small) speed bumb. Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Now, can someone with 8 levels of X (that Doesn't grant UD or IUD) and 6 levels of Shadowdancer, be flanked by a level 10 rogue, or does the rogue have to be level 18?
Since there's the line about Stacking levels, I assume it's the lower level rogue, but still.:smallconfused:

[gbprime]

Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Now, can someone with 8 levels of X (that Doesn't grant UD or IUD) and 6 levels of Shadowdancer, be flanked by a level 10 rogue, or does the rogue have to be level 18?
Since there's the line about Stacking levels, I assume it's the lower level rogue, but still.:smallconfused:

Looks pretty clear to me...


If a character gains uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge, and the levels from those classes stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

If that other class doesn't grant uncanny dodge, then there's nothing to stack, and the rogue level required in the case of your example would be 10.

[gbprime]

And all who gazed upon it, trembled. . . .

No, all who gazed upon it RAN AND HID THEMSELVES. Remember the PrC in question. :smallwink:

[dextercorvia]

So, I think we still need that ruling on Shadow HD, plus I ran into another (small) speed bumb. Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Now, can someone with 8 levels of X (that Doesn't grant UD or IUD) and 6 levels of Shadowdancer, be flanked by a level 10 rogue, or does the rogue have to be level 18?
Since there's the line about Stacking levels, I assume it's the lower level rogue, but still.:smallconfused:

No ruling is necessary in either case. Incorrect examples never trump text, and the text says to add +2 HD per 3 levels. For the other, IUD is always based on class levels.

[Amphetryon]

No ruling is necessary in either case. Incorrect examples never trump text, and the text says to add +2 HD per 3 levels. For the other, IUD is always based on class levels.

Sounds right from here.

[Cieyrin]

Interesting. I have other things that need working on currently but maybe I can swing out a build further than last round went for me. Though the ideas I want to pursue have already been heavily speculated on in-thread, which is highly annoying for my Originality... :smallannoyed:

[Venger]

No ruling is necessary in either case. Incorrect examples never trump text, and the text says to add +2 HD per 3 levels. For the other, IUD is always based on class levels.

oh, the only question we had was whether your shadow starts out with 2HD or 3HD at 3rd level since shadows normally have 3, but the example in the text seems to imply that it'd have 2. so you're saying that it'd have 2 and thus 7 at 9th level?

[dextercorvia]

oh, the only question we had was whether your shadow starts out with 2HD or 3HD at 3rd level since shadows normally have 3, but the example in the text seems to imply that it'd have 2. so you're saying that it'd have 2 and thus 7 at 9th level?

At Shadowdancer3, the Shadow should have 5HD. 3 normal, plus you add 2HD for being a 3rd level Shadowdancer. By 9th level, it would have 9HD. It doesn't say for every 3rd level gained from this point. To say that it would need to use wording like in Scorching Ray.

[Venger]

At Shadowdancer3, the Shadow should have 5HD. 3 normal, plus you add 2HD for being a 3rd level Shadowdancer. By 9th level, it would have 9HD. It doesn't say for every 3rd level gained from this point. To say that it would need to use wording like in Scorching Ray.

oh cool! dunno what was up with the example in the DMG then. does your shadow turn into a greater shadow when it gets 9HD?

[dextercorvia]

oh cool! dunno what was up with the example in the DMG then. does your shadow turn into a greater shadow when it gets 9HD?

A Greater Shadow is just an advanced Shadow with crappy feat selection. I hope you can do better than that. :smallwink:

[flabort]

Build submitted, although I think I MAY have forgotten to spell check :smallredface:
And am questioning whether to resubmit because of that.

[Venger]

A Greater Shadow is just an advanced Shadow with crappy feat selection. I hope you can do better than that. :smallwink:

oh, I was more interested in its 1d8 str damage instead of 1d6, although racial feats are nice and I think you're entitled to pick your shadow's feats as it gets more HD. an incorporeal monster dealing that much str damage will render certain foes helpless awfully fast, which a shadowdancer with SA will appreciate

[OMG PONIES]

I feel the need to point out that even mentioning a non-SI class feature you plan on having falls under the "speculation" umbrella...and we try not to open that umbrella here.

[TroubleBrewing]

Oh my giddy aunt, I may have an angle for this thing. I guess staring blankly at a wall for a while really DOES help!

[Akto]

This class is most... let's say interresting ;) as another poster said, they really give that "well.. so?" feeling... Think i've found an interresting way to implement them

But the really important thing to ask is, would you score high on originality with 0 levels of Shadowdancer :P

[Darthteej]

This class is most... let's say interresting ;) as another poster said, they really give that "well.. so?" feeling... Think i've found an interresting way to implement them


The worst by far is Darkvision. If you already have Darkvision, you give exactly no jacks and squats.

[TheGeckoKing]

At last! My build has been submitted, even though I feel the feat selection I settled on was utter tripe (god I hate SD's pre-requirements).

[TroubleBrewing]

Online resources are fine, as long as I link to them, right?

[Cieyrin]

Online resources are fine, as long as I link to them, right?

We really need to include this in the opening post, if not already there, as it's been asked the last 4 or so challenges.

Yes, that's fine. The only things that are off-limits are 3rd party, Dragon and Dungeon magazine(Dragon Compendium is fine, though some judges don't care for it like they don't care for UA). And generally, judges like to know where you're getting stuff from, so providing a list of sources not only does that but some judges have docked Elegance points for not including a source list.

[Diefje]

This class is most... let's say interresting ;) as another poster said, they really give that "well.. so?" feeling... Think i've found an interresting way to implement them

But the really important thing to ask is, would you score high on originality with 0 levels of Shadowdancer :P

I think someone got a DQ for something like that in a similar competition. Can't remember where exactly, but he made a build that did exactly what the SI did without using the SI.

The point is to use the SI. It'd be like playing a shooter without any enemies.

[Zipding]

Have any of you had that moment where you were almost finished a build, with only the backstory left, and you are smacked with a wall of writer's block. This build is getting more annoying as I try to think of a backstory that won't include the character as a Mary Sue.

With regards to builds, I can kick out characters really quickly. For my Scion of Tem Et Nu build, I only worked on the build for about 2-3 days. Most of the time was trying to find a series of classes that would work well together.

[Cieyrin]

I think someone got a DQ for something like that in a similar competition. Can't remember where exactly, but he made a build that did exactly what the SI did without using the SI.

The point is to use the SI. It'd be like playing a shooter without any enemies.

That was IC E6 2: Monk.

[TroubleBrewing]

Are we allowed to switch out the Shadow's Alertness and Dodge feats? The MM seems to suggest that switching out non-bonus feats is fine, but I'd like to get a ruling on this before I proceed.

[Zipding]

I like that this PrC requires Perform Dance as a prerequisite, but doesn't have any abilities linked to it. Kinda makes it feel like a dump skill when you really think about it.

[Amphetryon]

We really need to include this in the opening post, if not already there, as it's been asked the last 4 or so challenges.

Yes, that's fine. The only things that are off-limits are 3rd party, Dragon and Dungeon magazine(Dragon Compendium is fine, though some judges don't care for it like they don't care for UA). And generally, judges like to know where you're getting stuff from, so providing a list of sources not only does that but some judges have docked Elegance points for not including a source list.

Updated the OP to clarify on-line source viability, and list those who have thrown their hats into the ring so far as contestants. If I missed your name, let me know.

I'll add the judges' names, linked to their criteria, shortly.

[Zipding]

I've got my second build submitted. It's not as well written as the first one in my opinion, but it works. I won't be working on anymore as trying to get this one to not be like my first one was hard enough, trying to get 1 build to not be like 2 others with a restrictive PrC like this one would be rediculous.

[flabort]

At last! My build has been submitted, even though I feel the feat selection I settled on was utter tripe (god I hate SD's pre-requirements).

Yup. Same here, I really scraped rock bottom.
As I said, I'd be surprised to see a 3 on my build from any but the "doting judge with candy in her purse at all times". The nice judge. Maybe a 3 in originality, but that's pretty well it :smallwink: What I took to get that shot me in the foot for the other three :smalltongue:


I like that this PrC requires Perform Dance as a prerequisite, but doesn't have any abilities linked to it. Kinda makes it feel like a dump skill when you really think about it.

Yeah... Anyone able to recommend any good homebrew fixes, that actually DANCE? Depending on whether the author is OK with it, I might feature it as a Dessert round SI. In a few months, not right away, of course.


Updated the OP to clarify on-line source viability, and list those who have thrown their hats into the ring so far as contestants. If I missed your name, let me know.

I'll add the judges' names, linked to their criteria, shortly.

Ouch. 24 contestants? Nope, I'm not even getting a 2 in originality, no matter WHAT the judges think of mine. Not even from the nice judge :smalltongue:
And since there's more than on entry from some contestants :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:.... Well, no trophy for me. :smallamused: Maybe HM. Doubt it.

[Zipding]

Ouch. 24 contestants? Nope, I'm not even getting a 2 in originality, no matter WHAT the judges think of mine. Not even from the nice judge :smalltongue:
And since there's more than on entry from some contestants :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:.... Well, no trophy for me. :smallamused: Maybe HM. Doubt it.

Don't worry, Diefje won HM despite him hating his overall build last round. Everyone has a chance to win HM, it all depends on what appeals to the people and what they feel didn't quite make it, but is still pretty decent.

[Amphetryon]

Are we allowed to switch out the Shadow's Alertness and Dodge feats? The MM seems to suggest that switching out non-bonus feats is fine, but I'd like to get a ruling on this before I proceed.
1) Switching the Shadow's default feats is allowed.
2) Judges are in no way proscribed from penalizing said switching as they see fit, if it impacts Elegance or UoSI in their eyes. They should probably pick one or the other to penalize for this, though.

[deuxhero]

I'm interested in how this turns out. All the previous ingredients had SOME ability that can be used. SD doesn't have anything beyond the odd dip.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'll be competing.

(Granted, I said that the last two competitions as well... but I've already gone through the trouble of formatting tables, so it would be a bit silly to back out now.)

[Akto]

Ouch. 24 contestants? Nope, I'm not even getting a 2 in originality, no matter WHAT the judges think of mine. Not even from the nice judge :smalltongue:
And since there's more than on entry from some contestants :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:.... Well, no trophy for me. :smallamused: Maybe HM. Doubt it.

Haha... Feeling your pain here brother =P 24 contestants in what is my first try at IC, no way i'm feeling comfortable about winning anything =P

Though i must admit i do hope for a positive respons in the originality section, with 24 chances are someone got an idea similiar to mine, but c'est le vie =)

[deuxhero]

I'm going to guess SRD/Core is what made this so popular?

[Venger]

Are we allowed to switch out the Shadow's Alertness and Dodge feats? The MM seems to suggest that switching out non-bonus feats is fine, but I'd like to get a ruling on this before I proceed.

Oh dear. were we supposed to make a separate sheet for the shadow?

[flabort]

I'm going to guess SRD/Core is what made this so popular?

Yuppers. If you didn't have the book with previous SIs, you'd either need to find it online/buy it, which is actually quite difficult, or not compete.
Since this is within EVERYONE's grasp, well, everyone who couldn't compete before because of that, is now in.

[Diefje]

Don't worry, Diefje won HM despite him hating his overall build last round. Everyone has a chance to win HM, it all depends on what appeals to the people and what they feel didn't quite make it, but is still pretty decent.

I hated it as a serious build. It had only 1 cool trick, that depended on general underpreparedness of the "native" people/wildlife around a desert river.

It was still very lulz-y, cause it was a frikkin huge frikkin werehippopotamus with frikkin lazers attached to its frikkin head. OK, there were no lazers... I should have given it lazers...

The point is, there's many things that can make a build awesome. Even if you don't win, you still get all these awesome ideas. And that's awesome.


Awesome awesome awesome

[Diefje]

Oh dear. were we supposed to make a separate sheet for the shadow?
It just progresses like a Shadow, so you only have a few things to customize. A couple of lines should be fine, unless it's very optimized/customized around the shadow, then you obviously need to lay out what it does etc.

No need for a statblock just for 2 feats you shuffled around.

[deuxhero]

Yuppers. If you didn't have the book with previous SIs, you'd either need to find it online/buy it, which is actually quite difficult, or not compete.
Since this is within EVERYONE's grasp, well, everyone who couldn't compete before because of that, is now in.


Even without that, I feel the DMG prcs (and other early books like CW) are good choice for IC simply because they were made by people with no idea what they were doing making a PRC and it shows (Heavy armor+hide?). Arcane Archer, Blackguard, Duelist and Shadowdancer all stand out (AA alreddy was a key part in the winner for Divine Crusader in an awesome way though)

[Venger]

I feel the need to point out that even mentioning a non-SI class feature you plan on having falls under the "speculation" umbrella...and we try not to open that umbrella here.

my apologies. I was just speaking generally, it wasn't my intent to spoil anyone's build

now that I think on it, doesn't your shadow kill anybody it reduces to 0 str? I know they don't create spawn, but they do still kill you, right?

[flabort]

No, I'm pretty sure str damage just immobilizes you. Makes you helpless and prone. Con is the only one that results in Dead.

[Mooncrow]

No, I'm pretty sure str damage just immobilizes you. Makes you helpless and prone. Con is the only one that results in Dead.

Str - helpless
Dex - paralyzed
Con - dead
Int, Wis, Cha - unconscious

[Private-Prinny]

Ouch. 24 contestants? Nope, I'm not even getting a 2 in originality, no matter WHAT the judges think of mine. Not even from the nice judge :smalltongue:


Haha... Feeling your pain here brother =P 24 contestants in what is my first try at IC, no way i'm feeling comfortable about winning anything =P

24 people expressed interest. I wouldn't be surprised if only a dozen actually submit anything.


Even without that, I feel the DMG prcs (and other early books like CW) are good choice for IC simply because they were made by people with no idea what they were doing making a PRC and it shows (Heavy armor+full plate?). Arcane Archer, Blackguard, Duelist and Shadowdancer all stand out (AA alreddy was a key part in the winner for Divine Crusader in an awesome way though)

The Arcane Archer came in second, actually. The winner was a Truenamer.

[flabort]

The Arcane Archer came in second, actually. The winner was a Truenamer.

:smalltongue: Yes, that was hilariously funny. And epic.

AndOhIWantMyBuildToScoreGood.

[Urpriest]

A creature reduced to Str 0 by a shadow dies, as per its entry. The ability is separate from its Create Spawn, so it retains it when it becomes a Shadowdancer companion.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

The Arcane Archer came in second, actually. The winner was a Truenamer.

Can... can the winner of last round still taste ice cream?

[Venger]

No, I'm pretty sure str damage just immobilizes you. Makes you helpless and prone. Con is the only one that results in Dead.


Str - helpless
Dex - paralyzed
Con - dead
Int, Wis, Cha - unconscious

oh, no, I know that's ordinarily the case, I was referring to this:


A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow dies.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm

does that still hold true of shadowdancers' shadows? I know that they can't create spawn, but do they still kill people whose str they get down to 0?

edit: ninja'ed. thanks, urpriest

[Cieyrin]

Ouch. 24 contestants? Nope, I'm not even getting a 2 in originality, no matter WHAT the judges think of mine. Not even from the nice judge :smalltongue:
And since there's more than on entry from some contestants :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:.... Well, no trophy for me. :smallamused: Maybe HM. Doubt it.

I can tell you from being a judge for the other core PRC IC: Assassin, that the number of entrants does not necessarily reflect the number of actual entries. There were like 30 contestants and we got somewhere in the 12-15 range.

[DonutBoy12321]

I'm in. Let's see... *mumbles something about two levels and no Evasion*... I hate having to think.

[Amechra]

I shall compete...

This should be far too fun... I love the Shadowdancer, I really do.

:smallsmile:

[OMG PONIES]

Can... can the winner of last round still taste ice cream?

It was actually Round XXIV, but yes I can. I actually LIKE the Truenamer, even.

[deuxhero]

I'm assuming the "taste ice cream" is a true namer joke?

[Zipding]

It was actually Round XXIV, but yes I can. I actually LIKE the Truenamer, even.

I built a Truenamer once and found it most useful when you didn't have to use the Utterances against opponents, making it much easier to pull them off.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm assuming the "taste ice cream" is a true namer joke?

It's something... I think Doc or Keld said about Zaq's Truenamer guide. "Gentlemen, learn from Zaq's example. And remember, 9 out of 10 people who play Truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream," or something to that effect.

[Venger]

It's something... I think Doc or Keld said about Zaq's Truenamer guide. "Gentlemen, learn from Zaq's example. And remember, 9 out of 10 people who play Truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream," or something to that effect.

you are correct, it was indeed Doc. zaq's truenamer guide is most excellent. despite his warning, it does have my curiosity piqued enough to try playing a truenamer someday in a high starting lvl low op short game just long enough to see the looks on everyone's faces when I show them what a truenamer 11/artificer 5 is capable of.

even if you don't want to play truenamer, it's a very fun read:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214115


Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

@Amphetryon

Last post of page 3, I posted the RAW argument for SD's Dimension Door having CL equal to HD; the SRD description of Spell-like abilities. I totally realize that the current ruling is in keeping with the majority of PrC's, but the RAW interpretation gives SD more options and I think it's in keeping with the spirit of IC.

[DaragosKitsune]

Well, it seems I got distracted.


I guess now's as good a time as any to submit my judging criteria.

For the purposes of judging, I will be assuming a score of three in all categories prior to judgment, and then adjusting higher or lower based on the contents of the build. As such, all of my criteria will include references to both gaining and losing points.

Originality: Points in originality are gained by creating unexpected build concepts and through the use of inventive methods of meeting the intended build goal. Points are lost through bland or uninteresting build concepts and by the use of similar non-essential build elements (i.e. parts of the build not needed for SI entry) to other competitors. If 5 builds use Paladin, but only one takes it somewhere different, the other 4 will likely lose points here.

Power: Points in power are, quite simply, gained or lost by the relative power of the build. Relative power, for the purpose of judging, will be defined as the ability of the build to fill its intended role.

Elegance: Points gained and lost in elegance are dependent on two factors. The first will be the "flow" of the build, such as the use of multiple classes, the use of loose rule interpretation, and the use of logical progression. The other factor covered by elegance is formatting and spelling. If I can't read it, you lose points. If reading it offends my sense of grammar, you lose points. If you put spoilers in spoilers and they aren't needed or useful, you lose points.

Use of Secret Ingredient: In the UoSI category, points are gained and lost based on effective use of and focus on the levels and abilities of the secret ingredient. Note that effective use of levels in the secret ingredient does not mean using all of the levels available. Emphasizing without overusing will win you points here.

Now, to make a few clarifications and additions. Firstly, if the SI levels feel useless (i.e. they feel like they could be replaced by any similar role PrC of the same approximate level of power) I will automatically give a 1 in the UoSI category. Also, I will not be penalizing using less than nine levels of the SI if the build is the better for it (though 5 or fewer levels is pushing it). Carry on, citizens.

[Amechra]

Important question: do we control which feats our Shaodw Companion gets from having enough HD?

[Hunter Killer]

@Amphetryon

Last post of page 3, I posted the RAW argument for SD's Dimension Door having CL equal to HD; the SRD description of Spell-like abilities. I totally realize that the current ruling is in keeping with the majority of PrC's, but the RAW interpretation gives SD more options and I think it's in keeping with the spirit of IC.

One question on this... Why would you use the Spell-Like Ability rules for the Shadowdancer's Shadow Jump? It's not a Spell-Like. It's a Supernatural Ability (Su). :smallconfused:

Also, Supernatural Abilities aren't subject to SR, Dispelling, or Counterspelling, so knowing the CL of the ability is mostly useless (Regardless of how it is calculated). Prove me wrong and you get a cookie. :smallwink:

I kind of think I know why you want to know... If you're planning on using the Quicken Spell-Like Ability Feat, let me just be a gentleman and stop you now before you lose points: It doesn't work. :smallfrown:

[Private-Prinny]

One question on this... Why would you use the Spell-Like Ability rules for the Shadowdancer's Shadow Jump? It's not a Spell-Like. It's a Supernatural Ability (Su). :smallconfused:

Also, Supernatural Abilities aren't subject to SR, Dispelling, or Counterspelling, so knowing the CL of the ability is mostly useless (Regardless of how it is calculated). Prove me wrong and you get a cookie. :smallwink:

Supernatural abilities have the same clause in their description (CL = HD). Additionally, it would give us a range and area for Shadow Illusion.

As for why the CL of Shadow Jump is relevant, it's because you travel as if you were using Dimension Door. Dimension Door let's you bring along one willing Medium-sized creature per 3 caster levels. Since the ability text for Shadow Jump doesn't have any clause that stops the Shadowdancer from bringing people with them, it would be a safe assumption that they can have their allies tag along. We need to know the CL so we know how many willing allies a Shadowdancer can bring.

[TroubleBrewing]

Firstly, if the SI levels feel useless (i.e. they feel like they could be replaced by any similar role PrC of the same approximate level of power) I will automatically give a 1 in the UoSI category.

I'm normally not one to complain, but this feels rather harsh. There's at least 1 base class that gets everything SD gets and more, and there are at least 2 PrC's who do it's thing just flat out better. :smalltongue:

Knowing this, it's impossible to justify using this PrC except in the most extreme circumstances. This doesn't mean I don't believe in penalizing builds which don't seem to gain anything from it, but it seems unreasonably Draconic to automatically score something a 1 for such a nebulous criteria. :smallfrown:

[DaragosKitsune]

I'm normally not one to complain, but this feels rather harsh. There's at least 1 base class that gets everything SD gets and more, and there are at least 2 PrC's who do it's thing just flat out better. :smalltongue:

Knowing this, it's impossible to justify using this PrC except in the most extreme circumstances. This doesn't mean I don't believe in penalizing builds which don't seem to gain anything from it, but it seems unreasonably Draconic to automatically score something a 1 for such a nebulous criteria. :smallfrown:

I'm sensing a failure in understanding between us. I explicitly said that the one would only occur if the class feels interchangeable with another class of similar power. I understand that the class is far from an optimal choice. For an example of what I mean, see my judging from last round.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I agree with Kitsune, plenty of times I've looked over people's fluffing or how it works of a submission and wanted to point out "that's not actually good/more of your base class would accomplish this 10X better/or you could have bought a wand of that 2nd level spell and been able to do that trick more than once a day without investing levels".

@Hunter Killer: Damn, the (Su) is another kick in the teeth to this class. I guess I'll have to be more imaginative than optimizing DD. Just wanted it for the innocent purposes of jumping out of melee while staying in the room. You do owe Prinny a cookie though and the same CL+HD default applies to Su.

[Venger]

I'm normally not one to complain, but this feels rather harsh. There's at least 1 base class that gets everything SD gets and more, and there are at least 2 PrC's who do it's thing just flat out better. :smalltongue:

Knowing this, it's impossible to justify using this PrC except in the most extreme circumstances. This doesn't mean I don't believe in penalizing builds which don't seem to gain anything from it, but it seems unreasonably Draconic to automatically score something a 1 for such a nebulous criteria. :smallfrown:

I experienced a similar reaction upon reading that particular selection. I think that the clarification he posted means that he won't be doing that, though. I too agree that shadowdancer is mostly impossible to justify and if you allow the whole "this class could do the SI trick better" school of thought, it's kind of defeating the purpose of the whole SI gimmick. would straight fighter levels (for example) have been better than tactical soldier? perhaps, but that doesn't mean it'd be allowed or in the spirit of the challenge.



I'm sensing a failure in understanding between us. I explicitly said that the one would only occur if the class feels interchangeable with another class of similar power. I understand that the class is far from an optimal choice. For an example of what I mean, see my judging from last round.

okay, that makes a little more sense. since I wouldn't say there's very many classes on shadowdancer's power level (or lack thereof), especially ones as weak as it that give similar abilities, I think we're all safe. so what you're saying is you won't penalize us for not taking a class that is stronger than shadowdancer, only for taking a class that is around the same power level as shadowdancer that grants similar abilities?

again, not trying to give away any of my or anybody else's build details, just seeking clarification.



I agree with Kitsune, plenty of times I've looked over people's fluffing or how it works of a submission and wanted to point out "that's not actually good/more of your base class would accomplish this 10X better/or you could have bought a wand of that 2nd level spell and been able to do that trick more than once a day without investing levels".

@Hunter Killer: Damn, the (Su) is another kick in the teeth to this class. I guess I'll have to be more imaginative than optimizing DD. Just wanted it for the innocent purposes of jumping out of melee while staying in the room. You do owe Prinny a cookie though and the same CL+HD default applies to Su.

I understand your point, but I think that this is overly harmful to shadowdancer builds as that line of thinking applies to its shadow illusion and iconic shadow jump ability. I mean, there are half a dozen items that could provide the same end result more times a day without having to take levels of shadowdancer, but the idea of the challenge is to take shadowdancer.

sorry your plan got gimped, but if it's any consolation, it probably wouldn't have helped much anyway. unless I am reading it incorrectly, I think shadow jump provokes AoOs (not since you're leaving a threatened square. you are teleporting. that would be silly) but it says "as if casting dimension door." your odds of making the DC19 concentration check to "cast" defensively are unlikely since shadowdancers do not have concentration as a class skill (derp) good luck trying to use your 1/day silent image. hitting a 16 doesn't sound hard till you realise it's with a skill you don't have and have little reason to invest in.

[TroubleBrewing]

Nearly done with my build.

Great googly moogly the FORMATTING AAGGGHHHH :smallfurious:

[Venger]

Nearly done with my build.

Great googly moogly the FORMATTING AAGGGHHHH :smallfurious:

oh, I know just what you mean. I had a scroll of "remove blindness" handy, my eyes were just about bleeding when I was triple checking all my darn saves and BA and stuff to make sure they were adding up.

that said though, the table that was provided makes things a lot easier. the thought of making my own html code table thing on top of the time it took to build and fluff makes me die a little inside

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I use a microsoft Excel document to create my characters then convert it into the IC format if I decide to post them on the forum. Excel makes creating characters (in my opinion) so much easier when it does a lot of the calculations for you.

[Venger]

I like to use a form fillable pdf to keep track of ranks, it adds everything up for you so you can at least not worry about forgetting to doublecheck your numbers

[Amphetryon]

@Amphetryon

Last post of page 3, I posted the RAW argument for SD's Dimension Door having CL equal to HD; the SRD description of Spell-like abilities. I totally realize that the current ruling is in keeping with the majority of PrC's, but the RAW interpretation gives SD more options and I think it's in keeping with the spirit of IC.
Objections duly noted. Original ruling stands.

IN OTHER NEWS:

A couple folks have asked questions about advancing the Shadow Companion of a Shadowdancer. Here's Curmudgeon's take on things:

The companion's hit dice are purely a class feature of the Shadowdancer; there is no option for other advancement after the shadow is summoned.

[cd4]

Well I have just sent in my entry. Finally a class where I had the book and had a good idea about what to do with the class.

[Amechra]

I have to ask again; we control the feats the Shadow Companion gets from its HD, along with its skill points, yes?

[Amphetryon]

I have to ask again; we control the feats the Shadow Companion gets from its HD, along with its skill points, yes?


1) Switching the Shadow's default feats is allowed.
2) Judges are in no way proscribed from penalizing said switching as they see fit, if it impacts Elegance or UoSI in their eyes. They should probably pick one or the other to penalize for this, though.

I answered this last page, unless there's some nuance to your question that I'm missing.

[Amechra]

Yes, I was wondering whether the dark moon howls.

You answered my question, though. Much glee and cackling!

[The_Werebear]

Ok, I can't come up with anything interesting AND workable, so I'm just going to throw in for judging. Criterion away!

Originality
To score high marks in originality, a build must not be something that I expect. This can involve odd feat choices, creative use of abilities, and generally feeling fresh and new. High originality builds should make me say "Wow, I did not see that coming"

Power
I'm more of a home table type gamer than a char-op specialist, so builds will be judged based on how powerful they are in an actual game. This means that stupid tricks that probably would get shut down by a DM don't count for power. Other than that, I will be acknowledging that this isn't best ingredient for earth shattering Kabooms.

Elegance
If the build flows and feels natural, that's worth about a 4. The tipping point is how well the whole ties in to any narrative provided. Dips without an excellent reason or explanation are points off, though usually small amounts.

Use of Secret Ingredient
The more of the SI you use, and the more you justify it's use over any similar class, the more points you get. Simple enough.

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, build submitted. I won't pretend it's my finest work ever, but it's solid and I'm happy with it.

[flabort]

Yes... Stuff like that.

I just realized I'd pretty much built so that something was maxed out, but never really realized my build could do that. :smallredface: And never mentioned it.
It would have gained a fair amount of power if I'd realized, and pointed it out. I think. The build can still do it, but it just doesn't... know it can do it. :smalltongue: :smallannoyed:

[The Gilded Duke]

First build is almost done, just need to come up with some kind of story.
Second build is just getting stranger and stranger by the day.

[Venger]

welp, my second idea for a build is proving too much of a headache to be viable (plus I can't justify writing any more fluff during nano) I'll post it after the big reveal so as not to steal anyone's thunder.

[Amphetryon]

25ish contestants, with most talking about two builds. . . .

Good luck, judges. :smalleek:

[dextercorvia]

25ish contestants, with most talking about two builds. . . .

Good luck, judges. :smalleek:

I say we pick our favorite 5 and judge those.:smallbiggrin:

Contestants sure are working hard this time. How many builds do you have submitted so far?

[Venger]

25ish contestants, with most talking about two builds. . . .

Good luck, judges. :smalleek:

noooooo! my idea couldn't have been that obvious, could it? darn. at least most of the judges are evaluating originality on the build's own merit this time as opposed to whether or not it's similar to the other contestants' builds, since shadowdancer is sorta prescriptive.

without speculating, I must say that "two builds" does catch my attention. shadowdancer's played pretty rarely, so I can't honestly say that I know of even one "obvious" build for it, much less two

by "talking about", do you mean in the thread or the things you've received? with an SI that's this much of an... exotic taste, the whole mystery aspect is definitely pretty high, just like it was for tactical soldier

[Amphetryon]

I say we pick our favorite 5 and judge those.:smallbiggrin:

Contestants sure are working hard this time. How many builds do you have submitted so far?

A quick count says I have 8 submissions so far.

Venger, I meant that several of those who have talked about competing, are talking about making two submissions, which would lead to a grand total of around FIFTY builds (eek!) for the judges to sort through if all 25 or so entrants sent two separate builds. I didn't mean to imply there were only 2 ways to build a Shadowdancer.

[Venger]

A quick count says I have 8 submissions so far.

Venger, I meant that several of those who have talked about competing, are talking about making two submissions, which would lead to a grand total of around FIFTY builds (eek!) for the judges to sort through if all 25 or so entrants sent two separate builds. I didn't mean to imply there were only 2 ways to build a Shadowdancer.

:smallredface: oh, silly me. I thought you meant that of the submissions you had, they were all doing two things, which really threw me for a loop since that doesn't happen very often. that makes a lot more sense. that was my mistake

well, I'm definitely not submitting two. I think I used all my good ideas on the first one. I wouldn't be able to do anything good with the second one without double dipping and thus possibly injuring both in the ways of originality.

it'll be hard for people to place in this one if everybody follows through by the 11th. honourable mention's value will shoot up in a field of 25+ possible entries. what's the protocol for voting on that? I have been unable to discern from reading past threads.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

25ish contestants, with most talking about two builds. . . .

Good luck, judges. :smalleek:

Oh god, what have us judges gotten ourselves into? :smalleek:

[BobVosh]

I'm scared. 50 builds would mean 3.57 builds a day to finish in 2 weeks.
Heck if you only spend 15 minutes(a feat I have never managed) a build that is 12.5 hours.
Bring it ON!

[nedz]

I'm up for this, I just have to tweak my build a little ...
I take it I just PM it to the chair ?

[flabort]

Hey, would it be OK to resubmit my build with the elements I missed/forgot, and spellchecking? Or is the first submission the one I'm stuck with?

And potentially 50 builds...
Well, judges, I can say I'm not submitting two (although I considered it), so that's one less. :smalltongue: Feel sorry for you, though, and realize that you definitely won't be submitting your judging day 1 :smallcool:

[Diefje]

I'm up for this, I just have to tweak my build a little ...
I take it I just PM it to the chair ?

Yes

And it seems the rules for Honorable Mention aren't explicitly layed out, but I believe everyone is allowed 1 vote regardless of what they did in the competition (but don't vote for yourself, or you'll look like a douche).

And finally, I resubmitted my build last competition, since I forgot a few things (like my race). Should be fine. Or else you can always give him a goatee and say your second build is the evil twin of your first build.

[Private-Prinny]

Hey, would it be OK to resubmit my build with the elements I missed/forgot, and spellchecking? Or is the first submission the one I'm stuck with?

When I was chairing, any corrections or additions that were sent to me before the deadline was up got added to the final version of the build. Amphetryon may or may not feel differently.

[Venger]

Yes

And it seems the rules for Honorable Mention aren't explicitly layed out, but I believe everyone is allowed 1 vote regardless of what they did in the competition (but don't vote for yourself, or you'll look like a douche).

And finally, I resubmitted my build last competition, since I forgot a few things (like my race). Should be fine. Or else you can always give him a goatee and say your second build is the evil twin of your first build.

okay, that makes sense. thanks for the explanation. lol, of course not. since the names are revealed at the end, that would indeed be pretty bad sportsmanship.

regarding resubmitting stuff, since Amphetryon is offline right now, I forgot something in my chart and he was okay with me sending him a new copy, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[Zipding]

When I was chairing, any corrections or additions that were sent to me before the deadline was up got added to the final version of the build. Amphetryon may or may not feel differently.

Yeah, I screwed up a couple of times last round, so I had to resubmit my build twice because of sources and poor formatting.

[gbprime]

I'm scared. 50 builds would mean 3.57 builds a day to finish in 2 weeks.
Heck if you only spend 15 minutes(a feat I have never managed) a build that is 12.5 hours.
Bring it ON!

25 contestants X 2 builds each X percentage that actually complete = 20 builds or less. If its more than that, I'd be incredibly surprised.

[Venger]

25 contestants X 2 builds each X percentage that actually complete = 20 builds or less. If its more than that, I'd be incredibly surprised.

well yeah. completely building characters all the way to 20 takes a long time with feats, explanations of strategies and whatnot, (not accounting for the time it takes to come up with a good build idea) and shadowdancer's 6+int skillpoints/lvl don't make that any easier. people invariably get slammed by the deadline regardless of the SI, so I'm pretty sure that we've seen the majority of the builds get submitted.

there's usually around 7-10 builds total (with the exception of the remarkably difficult tactical soldier) and since this is SRD and more people have access, I'm guessing we'll have about the same amount of entries as assassin (14), probably a little less since assassin is comparatively easier to qualify for compared to shadowdancer. I would likewise be surprised if we got more than 20, my guess is lucky 13.

[The Gilded Duke]

Just submitted my second build, and I am pretty much completely done. Not sure how to make anything else with this class at all.

[Amphetryon]

25 contestants X 2 builds each X percentage that actually complete = 20 builds or less. If its more than that, I'd be incredibly surprised.
12 so far. If the tales told of last minute deluges of builds are true, I'd be willing to bet on more than 20.

[Venger]

12 so far. If the tales told of last minute deluges of builds are true, I'd be willing to bet on more than 20.

historically, that has been the case. since we're all optimisers and good at math, you can't extrapolate the amount of daily entries based on the first day/first couple of days. the more time wears on, the greater the chance of more builds getting submitted, so while not exactly being exponential, builds/day are somewhat staggered. As a result, I'd lay odds on my earlier guess being wrong.

[BobVosh]

25 contestants X 2 builds each X percentage that actually complete = 20 builds or less. If its more than that, I'd be incredibly surprised.

I know, it would just be a funny thing if it happened.

[DaragosKitsune]

Wait, 20+ builds? We may need a judging deadline extension.

[Amphetryon]

Wait, 20+ builds? We may need a judging deadline extension.
You already got an extra 3 days beyond two weeks. :smalltongue:

[TroubleBrewing]

If it comes down to crunch time and we have too many contestants and too few judges, I'd be willing to withdraw my entry and judge instead.

[Venger]

headaches aside, my second build did prove to be mechanically viable (but it was not easy...

I'm sorry, judges, I think I am going to submit a second build after all. but it's only because there are so many other builds this time around. darn tragedy of the commons.

I think build 2 is stranger than build 1. if anyone's is stranger than build 2, I will be flabbergasted.

[BobVosh]

headaches aside, my second build did prove to be mechanically viable (but it was not easy...

I'm sorry, judges, I think I am going to submit a second build after all. but it's only because there are so many other builds this time around. darn tragedy of the commons.

I think build 2 is stranger than build 1. if anyone's is stranger than build 2, I will be flabbergasted.

Prepare to have your flabber most throughly gasted.

Not by me, I'm here to judge -.-

[flabort]

:smalltongue:
Yes, there's going to be some STRANGE builds. I expect mine to be amongst them.

PEW, PEW, PEW! :smalltongue: Sorry, distracted by sonic colors. :smallwink:
That has nothing to do with my build, fortunately. Although... hmm... I wonder how I'd do that... No.

[Piggy Knowles]

I had one SUPER strange idea, but I really couldn't leverage it into an actual build, thanks to some pretty severe limitations. That said, it probably would have fallen into the "very cheesy and obviously not the intent of the rules" category, and didn't have enough of a payoff to make it worth it.

Anyhow, with as many submissions as there have been, submitting a third build would probably be a bit too much :P

[Diefje]

I had one SUPER strange idea, but I really couldn't leverage it into an actual build, thanks to some pretty severe limitations. That said, it probably would have fallen into the "very cheesy and obviously not the intent of the rules" category, and didn't have enough of a payoff to make it worth it.

Anyhow, with as many submissions as there have been, submitting a third build would probably be a bit too much :P

I personally love when (AFTER THE REVEAL!!!) people post the ideas that didn't work. There's many interesting ideas and lulzies, without the drab stat sheets and over-analyzation that comes with putting it into an actual build.

Gotta get my build done still, aaaaaah.

[Piggy Knowles]

I personally love when (AFTER THE REVEAL!!!) people post the ideas that didn't work. There's many interesting ideas and lulzies, without the drab stat sheets and over-analyzation that comes with putting it into an actual build.

Oh, I will! I've done so with the last couple of contests, too, when I had interesting ideas that couldn't quite pull together. But I agree, seeing what didn't work is, for me, sometimes even more interesting than seeing what DID.

[flabort]

Lets see, the 11th, that's the day after my brother's birthday.
Huh, There's a lot of birthdays for people I know this month. My mom, my grandpa, my friend...

Eh. Anyways, I like it too when people put up builds after the reveal. Although there's some that I'd like to see in the full format (Still waiting on Smite Happy :smalltongue:), it's of course a given that most won't be afterwords.

While it can be fun to read the over analyzed points, I guess it's also fun to read stuff in a simpler format. it requires more knowledge on your part to understand HOW someone's qualifying for Wizard1/Urpriest 1/mystic theurge 8, but I guess if you do already know, it's easier to understand.

((Yes, I know it's impossible to qualify for Urpriest that early. Although if someone wants to find a way... :smalltongue:))

[dextercorvia]

((Yes, I know it's impossible to qualify for Urpriest that early. Although if someone wants to find a way... :smalltongue:))

Level Drain.

[gbprime]

Level Drain.

Explain that. Level drain removes skill points and feats too, leaving you nothing to qualify with.

[dextercorvia]

Explain that. Level drain removes skill points and feats too, leaving you nothing to qualify with.

Warning: NSFIC

You go something basic like Wizard1/SavageBard4/Urpriest1/MysticTheurge4

Now, as you drain each level of Savage Bard, you Restore a level of Mystic Theurge. Feats and skillpoints are (mostly) retained, and you should be able to stay qualified for Ur-Priest (if that is an issue at your table). Frankly, once you have your one level of Ur-Priest, you don't need to qualify for it any more, (not in CW or CA) so as you do the drain/restore shuffle, you can get some different skills and feats that would be more useful to your eventual build.

[gbprime]

Yeahbut... if you don't qualify for it anymore, don't you lose all the class features? (like the spell casting?)

[dextercorvia]

Yeahbut... if you don't qualify for it anymore, don't you lose all the class features? (like the spell casting?)

It is a common (usually unknowingly) houserule. RAW, this is only true of PrCs in CA and CW.

[Lapak]

Warning: NSFIC

You go something basic like Wizard1/SavageBard4/Urpriest1/MysticTheurge4

Now, as you drain each level of Savage Bard, you Restore a level of Mystic Theurge. Feats and skillpoints are (mostly) retained, and you should be able to stay qualified for Ur-Priest (if that is an issue at your table). Frankly, once you have your one level of Ur-Priest, you don't need to qualify for it any more, (not in CW or CA) so as you do the drain/restore shuffle, you can get some different skills and feats that would be more useful to your eventual build.Where in the world does it suggest that you get to choose what level gets drained when you suffer level loss? Unless I've missed something, I'd imagine you'd lose your most-recently-gained (Ur-Priest or MT) first, which kind of short-circuits this plan.

[Venger]

well, that's why it's not safe for iron chef, it's a kinda not RAW thing.

I kinda thought the way you'd get into MT with wiz1/urpriest1 would be to just go with precocious apprentice for wizard and sanctum spell with urpriest, at least as far as spells go

you are right, flabort, you can't qualify for urpriest RAW this way since you need Bluff 6, arcana5, planes 5 ranks, religion) 8, and Spellcraft8 which is doable at the earliest at level 5.

while energy drain doesn't say you lose your most recent level RAW, it's probably what RAI had in mind. that said, that's not what optimisation is about

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

you are right, flabort, you can't qualify for urpriest RAW this way since you need Bluff 6, arcana5, planes 5 ranks, religion) 8, and Spellcraft8 which is doable at the earliest at level 5.

Barring kobold shenanigans that is. With optimal circumstances for your kobold shenanigans you can qualify for it around level 2 with the help of a buddy that has psychic reformation.

[Venger]

Barring kobold shenanigans that is. With optimal circumstances for your kobold shenanigans you can qualify for it around level 2 with the help of a buddy that has psychic reformation.

could you elaborate? how does being a kobold allow you to break the max skills cap?

[flabort]

could you elaborate? how does being a kobold allow you to break the max skills cap?

Pun-Pun, of course. Pun-Pun's ability No Max Skill Ranks (Ex), combined with Gain 15 skill points with every step (Ex) means he has as many as he wants, in whatever he wants.

@V: I didn't say I approved of use of Pun-Pun, nor did I say I approved of his use of non-existent abilities like that. 'sides, it's an answer.

Also, technically, a 4th level kobold with an NPC class is CR 1, so while for a player character this would not count, for an NPC they could have 7 skill ranks and still be CR 1.

[OMG PONIES]

And that, children, was the day that flabort was forever banned from the annals of Iron Chef history. :smalltongue:

[Urpriest]

could you elaborate? how does being a kobold allow you to break the max skills cap?

Without being Pun-Pun, substitution levels are probably what's being referred to. (There's a very stupid trick involving a clause that says dragons qualify for anything that has dragonblood as a prerequisite and arguing that it lets you qualify for a substitution level before you've taken the other levels, so you can skip right to Cleric 7 or the like). Venger might also be referring to the Dusk Giant trick, where you polymorph into a monster that gains HD when it eats stuff, then rearrange your skill points according to your new, higher cap with psychic reformation. You don't need to be a kobold for that, but it's one way for kobolds to get the epic feats with high skill prereqs. Losing the HD doesn't lose you the skill, since the skill points came from earlier hit dice, they're just rearranged.

[Cieyrin]

Without being Pun-Pun, substitution levels are probably what's being referred to. (There's a very stupid trick involving a clause that says dragons qualify for anything that has dragonblood as a prerequisite and arguing that it lets you qualify for a substitution level before you've taken the other levels, so you can skip right to Cleric 7 or the like). Venger might also be referring to the Dusk Giant trick, where you polymorph into a monster that gains HD when it eats stuff, then rearrange your skill points according to your new, higher cap with psychic reformation. You don't need to be a kobold for that, but it's one way for kobolds to get the epic feats with high skill prereqs. Losing the HD doesn't lose you the skill, since the skill points came from earlier hit dice, they're just rearranged.

I suppose polymorphing into a Barghest is just the less cool way of doing that, since you have to eat more corpses and they have to be at least as powerful as you are to advance.

[Urpriest]

I suppose polymorphing into a Barghest is just the less cool way of doing that, since you have to eat more corpses and they have to be at least as powerful as you are to advance.

Yeah, it's that last condition that's the clincher. With Dusk Giant you can load up on chickens and go to town.

[Venger]

the dusk giant trick only works if you are a lvl 7 master of many forms though. you can qualify best by being a wildshape ranger so you don't give up casting and can be a little less MAD. at that level you obtain "extraordinary wildshape" and can retain the dusk giant's erroneously named "cannibalize" ability, and by lvl 2, you can turn into giants, so you're good.

speaking of which, when do wildshape rangers get wildshape? I assume it's also level 5.

[Hunter Killer]

That is correct; That's why the text says "As Druid". Remember the extra stipulation that it's Small and Medium creatures only, though.

I now officially hate this class, by the way. I can't figure out anything to do with it that's flavorful, powerful, and/or clever. Most of it is wonky stuff that screams "Why wouldn't you do this in a more straightforward manner with more levels of {censored}?!!". :smallannoyed:

[Venger]

That is correct; That's why the text says "As Druid". Remember the extra stipulation that it's Small and Medium creatures only, though.

I now officially hate this class, by the way. I can't figure out anything to do with it that's flavorful, powerful, and/or clever. Most of it is wonky stuff that screams "Why wouldn't you do this in a more straightforward manner with more levels of {censored}?!!". :smallannoyed:

that's what I thought. thanks. that's fortunately superseded if you take levels in MoMF which lets you turn into almost every size of monster eventually.

well, one thing that I found out helps a lot is to try striving for one thing the most with a build, either originality, power, elegance, or UoTSI. if you do that really well, you'll find yourself unconsciously buttressing that with the other 3.

which of the things is your build best at? flavour, power, or cleverness? which of those three avenues is the most fun for you to elaborate on? (we are doing this to have fun, cute trophies aside) if you got a 5 in that alone, would you feel proud?

I do feel your plight, shadowdancer is a wonky class. my builds each approached a different one of the 4 criteria (which I just now realised are likely a play on the 4 basic tastes, furthering the whole food and cooking analogy) and as a result, they felt really different to work on.

best of luck with your entry! I hope you're able to make your shadowdancer work for you

[TroubleBrewing]

You submitted four builds? :smallconfused:

I don't know why you'd need that many.

[gbprime]

You submitted four builds? :smallconfused:

I don't know why you'd need that many.

Well, win or lose, he just set a record, didn't he?

[TroubleBrewing]

Well, win or lose, he just set a record, didn't he?

Touche. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Touche)

However... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SequentialBoss) revenge is mine! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Revenge) You'll be trapped here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ICannotSelfTerminate) for eternity! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForEternity) Mwahahahahahahaha! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilLaugh)

[Venger]

You submitted four builds? :smallconfused:

I don't know why you'd need that many.

oh, heavens no! I don't have nearly that much free time on my hands, and there's no way that I'd be able to come up with four completely different ways to use shadowdancer. I'd inevitably end up slipping up somehow whether it was repeating a chain of feats, using the same turns of phrase in the writeup part, or even having to resort to using the same classes in two or more of them, which would definitely lose points in originality if it was a commonality in 2 or 4 of the contestants.

As I said a little earlier, I submitted my second build earlier this evening. by "each of my builds" I meant that I built two, and each of those two focused on one of the four aspects of the contest, I did not build an original character, an elegant character, a powerful character and a UoSI-y character. I can see how that could be read to mean that I made 4 builds, but that is unfortunately not true. if I wasn't out of ideas after build1, I definitely am out of ideas after build 2.

build 2 kinda came from me being a little paranoid that someone might try the same approach I used with build 1, so I wanted to try something so out there that when I was finished I could say "no one else would try this"

that said, I too am nursing a bit of a grudge against shadowdancer at this point. why did it have to have a tax of three feats? one or two would be bad enough. I'm excited to see the competition :smallsmile:

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

could you elaborate? how does being a kobold allow you to break the max skills cap?

White dragonspawn and effective sorcerer levels were what I was referring to. With crazy good rolls it is theoretically possible to obtain 6 'effective' levels of sorcerer (and then one real level of sorcerer) to obtain polymorph, polmorph into a psionic mindflayer and then use psychic reformation to edit your skills. So you can enter Ur-priest at ecl 3.

[Draz74]

Touche. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Touche)

However... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SequentialBoss) revenge is mine! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Revenge) You'll be trapped here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ICannotSelfTerminate) for eternity! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForEternity) Mwahahahahahahaha! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilLaugh)

If I click on the "revenge" link in this post, the tvtropes page should start with the example, "The thing the person did to you that posted links to tvtropes for you to click."

[TroubleBrewing]

If I click on the "revenge" link in this post, the tvtropes page should start with the example, "The thing the person did to you that posted links to tvtropes for you to click."

It so should. I'm actually a bit bummed that it doesn't. :smalltongue:

[Maethirion]

Well, exams are looming, and my build isn't coming together, so I think I'm going to have to drop out. Best of luck all, I look forward to seeing all the ideas, and I'll try again next time.

[TroubleBrewing]

Feel free to share that almost-finished idea with the playground after the reveal. I'm sure we could help you get that one finished off!

[OMG PONIES]

I am loving my shadowdancer in terms of flavor, but I'd be lying if I said that no other class could do this better.

[TroubleBrewing]

Hell, there are base classes (no annoying prereqs here) that do what the Shadowdancer does.

[flabort]

yeah, as I said before, I'd be willing to feature a SD fix in the dessert competition at some point. Porbably round 7 or 8, if someone finds one quickly.

That said, this class seems to be a PrC designed for NPCs. It doesn't really advance, well, ANYthing from ANYwhere. it would do best in gestalt, MAYBE.

Heh, I might write up a gestalt build for it now, and share it after the reveal in full IC form :smalltongue:
Hmmm.... what classes to use.... :smallamused:

[Venger]

yeah, as I said before, I'd be willing to feature a SD fix in the dessert competition at some point. Porbably round 7 or 8, if someone finds one quickly.

That said, this class seems to be a PrC designed for NPCs. It doesn't really advance, well, ANYthing from ANYwhere. it would do best in gestalt, MAYBE.

Heh, I might write up a gestalt build for it now, and share it after the reveal in full IC form :smalltongue:
Hmmm.... what classes to use.... :smallamused:

what sort of things did you have in mind? having it progress casting? cutting down on the feat tax? giving it shadow evocation/conjuration usable a couple times a day as SLAs pathfinder style?

that sounds like fun

[nedz]

Shadow Dancer is a great class, it gets its capstone at level 1 :smallbiggrin:
I''m not sure that there's much point to it beyond that; but I'm sure we will see.

[deuxhero]

Yes, Shadowdancer ranks up there with Mindbender as one of the beat one level prcs. :)

[dextercorvia]

Yes, Shadowdancer ranks up there with Mindbender as one of the beat one level prcs. :)

Nah -- Mindbender is straightforward to enter.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Yes, Shadowdancer ranks up there with Mindbender as one of the beat one level prcs. :)

The only bad part about the class for the dip is the feats required to do it...

[Venger]

Yes, Shadowdancer ranks up there with Mindbender as one of the beat one level prcs. :)

that would be true if it weren't for the 3 useless feats and only being able to enter post lvl 8.

mindbender's really hard to actually qualify for on time (at least in any of the 3 ways you're supposed to, wizard/sorc/warlock) unless you're a factotum

lvl 1 capstone is pretty sweet though. darkvision and evasion are nice if you don't already have 1 or both though.

[OMG PONIES]

I know I'm nitpicking, but can we please remove the errant <BR> from the "Base Attack Bonus" heading of the sample table? It's been irking me for a few rounds now.