warshaper

[awa]

my dm tells me warshaper is broken but i honestly don't see how any one can say that is their an aspect of the class im just not getting.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Its abilities are very useful and always active when in your in your alternate form (not Alternate form, just a different from your base form). Extra, non-capped natural attacks, fast healing, extra reach on top of natural. Then you combine it with Changling usually who can and will be in alternate form constantly so the class features essentially become racial features.

The concept is good but application poor. Powerful abilities while in a different form. While in different form should of been a limiting factor but its not.

Now, if your not a changling, its hardly broken. If your a Druid, your sacrificing a lot more for better wildshape. If your a were-whatever, well you just plain suck. If your relying on polypmorph line of spells, your loosing casting for benefits you have less time to utilize than a Druid.

[awa]

its base races only so it couldn't be the changeling thing

[Kittenwolf]

The biggest problem with it is the uncapped natural attacks, and as discussed above how long you spend in an alternate form.
If you've got a way of being in an alternate form at will, then it's very very powerful.
However, the uncapped natural attacks is an oversight nearly as absurdly dumb as Hulking Hurler's uncapped throwing damage.

A player being able to go "Ok, I turn into X and spend the next twenty minutes creating two hundred secondary natural attacks" is just stupid.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Its class features are only active when you're not in your own form, with the possible exception of the 5th level ability. For a Doppleganger or (arguably) a Changeling character, this can be accomplished at all times at no cost.

That means continual immunity to critical hits, sneak attack, and stunning, and the ability to grow natural weapons at the first level. The part about growing natural weapons is probably what he's talking about. You can grow 2 claw attacks, a bite attack, a gore attack, a tail whip attack, and 12 24 144 tentacle attacks. Then, after growing those natural weapons, you can increase their size by one step, and then by one more step, and then by one more step, until every natural weapon you currently possess deals damage as though you were colossal size. That's on a 5th level character if you went Changeling (+0 LA) Full BAB Class 4/ Warshaper 1.

At the 2nd level, you get +4 Str and +4 Con as unnamed bonuses, completely amazing.

At the third level you get +5 ft. reach, and opponents won't realize that you can reach that far until you do.

At the 4th level you get Fast Healing 2, which is available at character level 8. There are a few other ways to get fast healing at a low level (Shadow Creature), but this route has no level adjustment.

The 5th level of Warshaper should be skipped, since it doesn't progress your BAB or base saves, and the ability it gives you is pretty useless if you do your shaping outside of combat.

Luckily, there's an easy fix to this: Morphic Weapons can only grant you a natural attack routine of a creature whose form you could take, and a given natural weapon can only benefit from the ability once, whether being grown initially or increasing in size. That means that if the shape-changing ability you're currently using to enable Warshaper's class features would allow you to take the form of a Giant Octopus and use its 8 tentacle attack routine, then you can add 8 tentacles to your current form. For example, if you're using Alter Self, you could only gain the natural weapons of creatures of your own creature type that fall within the HD limit, and you would not be able to gain a greater number of attacks per round than you already possess. A Changeling using Minor Change Shape would not be able to use this ability to gain any natural weapons at all, though any he happens to already possess could still be increased in size.

[Mockingbird]

its base races only so it couldn't be the changeling thing

Well, your DM is dumb. :P

I play a changeling warshaper, it gave me a much-needed boost..

[awa]

i see i thought you just got one extra attack

[TurtleKing]

Ah so my thinking of enhancing my current natural attacks or just adding a claw here or a bite are just being tame? Also on that list of natural attacks if you can acquire the wings then enhance them for a Wing attack.

[CIDE]

Its class features are only active when you're not in your own form, with the possible exception of the 5th level ability. For a Doppleganger or (arguably) a Changeling character, this can be accomplished at all times at no cost.

That means continual immunity to critical hits, sneak attack, and stunning, and the ability to grow natural weapons at the first level. The part about growing natural weapons is probably what he's talking about. You can grow 2 claw attacks, a bite attack, a gore attack, a tail whip attack, and 12 24 144 tentacle attacks. Then, after growing those natural weapons, you can increase their size by one step, and then by one more step, and then by one more step, until every natural weapon you currently possess deals damage as though you were colossal size. That's on a 5th level character if you went Changeling (+0 LA) Full BAB Class 4/ Warshaper 1.

At the 2nd level, you get +4 Str and +4 Con as unnamed bonuses, completely amazing.

At the third level you get +5 ft. reach, and opponents won't realize that you can reach that far until you do.

At the 4th level you get Fast Healing 2, which is available at character level 8. There are a few other ways to get fast healing at a low level (Shadow Creature), but this route has no level adjustment.

The 5th level of Warshaper should be skipped, since it doesn't progress your BAB or base saves, and the ability it gives you is pretty useless if you do your shaping outside of combat.

Luckily, there's an easy fix to this: Morphic Weapons can only grant you a natural attack routine of a creature whose form you could take, and a given natural weapon can only benefit from the ability once, whether being grown initially or increasing in size. That means that if the shape-changing ability you're currently using to enable Warshaper's class features would allow you to take the form of a Giant Octopus and use its 8 tentacle attack routine, then you can add 8 tentacles to your current form. For example, if you're using Alter Self, you could only gain the natural weapons of creatures of your own creature type that fall within the HD limit, and you would not be able to gain a greater number of attacks per round than you already possess. A Changeling using Minor Change Shape would not be able to use this ability to gain any natural weapons at all, though any he happens to already possess could still be increased in size.


How do you accomplish the immunity to critical hits, sneak attack, stunning, etc? Also, regardless of the number of weapons wouldn't you still be restricted to the number of attacks per turn?

Finally, friend of mine claimed you could grow natural armor with Warshaper. I saw nothing supporting his argument in the write up. Possible or not?

[Dr.Epic]

Even with it's average HD and BAB, it's still pretty good:

-a boost to both str and con (even if your not a fighter, con is always good)
-immune to stun and crit; tell me that isn't awesome
-your reach extends 5 feet
-fast healing (right? I forget; I know I had a build involving warshaper and fast healing, but I forget where I get it from)
-natural weapons (okay, not great, but you always have a weapon at hand and if you had this before, you can increase the damage one size up)

Yeah, warshaper is awesome, though level 5 of it varies from build to build.

[MesiDoomstalker]

How do you accomplish the immunity to critical hits, sneak attack, stunning, etc? Also, regardless of the number of weapons wouldn't you still be restricted to the number of attacks per turn?

Finally, friend of mine claimed you could grow natural armor with Warshaper. I saw nothing supporting his argument in the write up. Possible or not?

Its explicity stated as a class feature, I believe the one you get at level 2. The immunities at least.

At first you cang grow natural attacks. Period. No limit to the number of natural attacks you can grow. Natural attacks can all be done together in a full attack. If you grow 2 claw, 1 bite, 2 slam, 1 tail slap, 2 wing buffets, 1 gore, 1 sting, and lets restrict ourselves at 20 tentacle attacks. Lets be funny and say the 20 tentacle attacks are your main attacks. That means you get 20 attacks at full BAB and 10 attacks at BAB-5. -2 if you have Multiattack. Combine this with Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike, you get iterative of sorts with your natural attacks. So you go upwards of 30 attacks per round with what I detailed above. You get no limit the number of attacks you can grow and the rules have no restriction to the number of natural attacks you can use unless a manufactured weapon is used in the appendage that has a natural attack.

And, no, you can not grow Natural Armor. I have no idea how your friend got that notion.

[lord pringle]

My friend and i have been joking about the warshaper lately so we have one question. Can you grow multiple bite attacks?

[MesiDoomstalker]

My friend and i have been joking about the warshaper lately so we have one question. Can you grow multiple bite attacks?

Yup. You could grow infinite numbers of all natural attack styles. Your only restricted by how long you have in alternate form and prep time. Though you'd look supremely silly.

[Keld Denar]

No, you can't grow multiple bites. Well, you could, but you could only use one at a time. If you are doing something that would impact your ability to use the weapon, such as wielding another weapon, then you can't use that natural weapon. Rules precident in several sources state that if you gain a bite (or claw or other natural weapons) when you already have those weapons, you use the damage of the attack gained or the origional, whichever is greater. If you have a 2d6 bite and you gain a 1d8 bite, you only use the 2d6 bite. If you have a pair of 1d4 claws, and you get a set of 1d8 claws, you use the 1d8 ones. If you have a bite attack from Warshaper, and you "grow" a second bite attack, you will use the damage of whichever is greater (they are both the same), and you'll make one bite. The only way to gain more than 1 bite is to have multiple heads, just like the only way to gain multiple claws is to have multiple arms (or legs, if you don't need to otherwise stand on your legs).

Unfortunately, the loophole is still open, however, since there is no limit to the number of tentacles you can sprout in various places. No, I won't draw you a picture, but if you google hard enough, I'm sure you can figure it out.

[MesiDoomstalker]

No, you can't grow multiple bites. Well, you could, but you could only use one at a time. If you are doing something that would impact your ability to use the weapon, such as wielding another weapon, then you can't use that natural weapon. Rules precident in several sources state that if you gain a bite (or claw or other natural weapons) when you already have those weapons, you use the damage of the attack gained or the origional, whichever is greater. If you have a 2d6 bite and you gain a 1d8 bite, you only use the 2d6 bite. If you have a pair of 1d4 claws, and you get a set of 1d8 claws, you use the 1d8 ones. If you have a bite attack from Warshaper, and you "grow" a second bite attack, you will use the damage of whichever is greater (they are both the same), and you'll make one bite. The only way to gain more than 1 bite is to have multiple heads, just like the only way to gain multiple claws is to have multiple arms (or legs, if you don't need to otherwise stand on your legs).

Unfortunately, the loophole is still open, however, since there is no limit to the number of tentacles you can sprout in various places. No, I won't draw you a picture, but if you google hard enough, I'm sure you can figure it out.

Thats true if the alternate form your in has a bite attack. But what about something without? Warshaper makes no provision about making multiple copies of the same attack. You can create infinite bite attacks just as you can create infinite tentacle attacks. You could make so that mouths randomly sprout all over your body. Realistic? No. But no more realistic than growing an ever increasing number of tentacles and all of them being fully functional and not hindering you or your other limbs despite being just a mass of tentacles.

[Fitz10019]

The warshaper should choose between enlarging one attack (that is native to the alternate form, like 1 claw of a tiger form) once, or adding one additional natural attack (like adding a horn to a tiger form). That's the interpretation of Morphic Weapons that my group uses, and I think that's RAI.

I suggest you run this interpretation by your DM -- maybe he will approve it then.

[Grim Reader]

The multiple attacks are the big problem with the class. Having the rest of the abilities in always-on mode for Changelings is very strong but not broken.

Unless you are in an all-melee party, and even then there are a number of other PrCs that match or outperform it. MoMF, Divine Crusader, Bear Warrior etc.

[comicshorse]

The warshaper should choose between enlarging one attack (that is native to the alternate form, like 1 claw of a tiger form) once, or adding one additional natural attack (like adding a horn to a tiger form). That's the interpretation of Morphic Weapons that my group uses, and I think that's RAI.

I suggest you run this interpretation by your DM -- maybe he will approve it then.

Thats pretty much how my G.M. ruled it for my Razorclaw Shifter/Warshaper though he allowed it to enlarge both of my claw attacks
And I love the class, the immunity to Crits and Sneak attacks is a lifesaver even though it only works for my character when he is Shifted

[Brumski]

The warshaper should choose between enlarging one attack (that is native to the alternate form, like 1 claw of a tiger form) once, or adding one additional natural attack (like adding a horn to a tiger form). That's the interpretation of Morphic Weapons that my group uses, and I think that's RAI.

I suggest you run this interpretation by your DM -- maybe he will approve it then.

My groups interpretation as well. I didn't even realize people were reading it as growing unlimited natural attacks, no one ever brought that idea up before.


Thats pretty much how my G.M. ruled it for my Razorclaw Shifter/Warshaper though he allowed it to enlarge both of my claw attacks
And I lve the class the immunity to Crits and Sneak attacks is a lifesaver even though it only works for my character when he is Shifted

I have a player currently running a Shifter Monk/Warshaper. Since he was playing a monk (and I forget exactly what but something weird about the shifter class) I let his warshaper abilities always be on, and with some monk fixes he's pretty awes...well with that Con boost and fast healing he can atleast take alot of damage.

The wizard just got a wand of Enlarge Person though, so some Huge fists getting thrown around may tip things more in his favor, power-wise.

And the 5th level wasn't taken

[CIDE]

-natural weapons (okay, not great, but you always have a weapon at hand and if you had this before, you can increase the damage one size up)

Yeah, warshaper is awesome, though level 5 of it varies from build to build.


This is where one problem comes in though. The way it is written there is no limit to the number of times you can enlarge said weapon. Thus, your right hand in the form of a claw is all of a sudden Collosus and you're a Small creature. All without any penalties.


Its explicity stated as a class feature, I believe the one you get at level 2. The immunities at least.

At first you cang grow natural attacks. Period. No limit to the number of natural attacks you can grow. Natural attacks can all be done together in a full attack. If you grow 2 claw, 1 bite, 2 slam, 1 tail slap, 2 wing buffets, 1 gore, 1 sting, and lets restrict ourselves at 20 tentacle attacks. Lets be funny and say the 20 tentacle attacks are your main attacks. That means you get 20 attacks at full BAB and 10 attacks at BAB-5. -2 if you have Multiattack. Combine this with Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike, you get iterative of sorts with your natural attacks. So you go upwards of 30 attacks per round with what I detailed above. You get no limit the number of attacks you can grow and the rules have no restriction to the number of natural attacks you can use unless a manufactured weapon is used in the appendage that has a natural attack.

And, no, you can not grow Natural Armor. I have no idea how your friend got that notion.


Where is it stated that you can use all natural attacks in a single turn? Not that I doubt you; I just need to know it in case it comes up. Also, I never said my friend was all that smart. He thinks he is a master of D&D without ever having played it.


My friend and i have been joking about the warshaper lately so we have one question. Can you grow multiple bite attacks?

No, actually. see below:
"If the warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were a category larger"

So the 20 tentacles is out. BUT it can be a tail, bite, gore, claw, tentacle, wing.... And in the right build all at COllosus if they can be in alternate form long enough to enlarge them all.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Where is it stated that you can use all natural attacks in a single turn? Not that I doubt you; I just need to know it in case it comes up. Also, I never said my friend was all that smart. He thinks he is a master of D&D without ever having played it.


The section on natural attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#claworTalon). It says:
When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.


It strongly implies that on a full-attack you get all your natural attacks. Of course an AoO or non-full attack will only use one but thats not what were argueing here.

[CIDE]

Gotcha. So, if the DM allowed it unknowingly there could potentially be five collosus-level damaging natural attacks swinging at a target.

[Dr.Epic]

This is where one problem comes in though. The way it is written there is no limit to the number of times you can enlarge said weapon. Thus, your right hand in the form of a claw is all of a sudden Collosus and you're a Small creature. All without any penalties.

That's hilarious! Too bad drill isn't a natural weapon, otherwise you could create a giga-drill.:smallwink:

[dgnslyr]

Perhaps a specially fluffed gore attack? As you empower your rhinoceros horn, it grows in size and develops threads, creating a very drill-like horn. Then get a flight speed, so your drill can better pierce the heavens. I've been on a TTGL binge lately, and statting out Kamina has been floating on my mind.

[CIDE]

That's the thing. It doesn't actually increase the size; it enhances it as if it did increase the size.

[Ravens_cry]

Yup. You could grow infinite numbers of all natural attack styles. Your only restricted by how long you have in alternate form and prep time. Though you'd look supremely silly.
Could lead to a good comedy routine: " Warshaper and Waldorf"
W: "Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?"
W: "Certainly! And this one, and this one, and this one, and this one, and this one, and this one, and this one, and this one, but not that one, and this one, and this one, and this one . . ."

[candycorn]

Easiest way to make it relatively balanced is to add this to Morphic Weapons:

When you grow a natural weapon with Morphic Weapons, any natural weapons created previously by this ability meld back into your body. In addition, if you use the effective size increase ability of Morphic Weapons, any natural weapon previously affected returns to its original effective size first.

[Heliomance]

RAI is clearly that you can grow only one extra natural weapon. Like many things D&D, it's badly worded, but trying to claim that you can grow unlimited natural attacks is firmly in TO territory, and too unimaginative and boring for them.