Tips for Party versus Party

[Squirrel_Dude]

My party of more experienced players want to mess with a less experienced DM because he bastardized the rules(Claymores with 1d20 for damage) and the less experienced players (for the lulz/"a learning experience").

tl;dr We didn't think combat was going to happen, but certain personalities between the parties make it likelihood.


We were initially considering lethal combat as a potential possibility, but nothing to really worry about. Maybe some faux fights, just for bragging rights (I.e. my ninja vs a half giant fighter in unarmed combat). Well, that was before we had met this fairy character. Apparently it's a beguiler (with 10 intelligence, btw), and some natural fire abilities (because DM). It preceded to make talk of "well, if that character tries anything, I'll just threaten him because I can light him on fire."

That Character: Why, a chaotic evil Elf that worships Lolth of course. Who immediately became friends with the party's half-orc fighter and Chaotic Evil Sorceror NPC (DM character) who will be joining us. How evil is he? Why the first time he got to torture victims, he caused the to overdose and die on sheer pain, and then ripped out and carried around their beating hearts. He gave one of them to a child in a day-care.

Surely the fairy wouldn't just attack something she met in a pub. Well, when we were watching a session of theirs, her reaction to an irritated wizard was, " well if he won't talk to us, we should just attack him." Yeah...

There will be 2 DM's present, one from each party, and 11 total players (including our DM as an NPC from our campaign). Any tips for how to run an effective Party V Party session, and hide roll results in a way that doesn't slow down the game to crawl.

Or have we taken a giant dump on everything holy by even considering this.

[Hawkings]

Can't say much besides get an impartial judge to DM, definitely not the DM that likes to change the game arbitrarily.

I understand where you're coming from, I had two DM's who liked to heavily modify the game so I'd say agree on rules prior to the game like core rules only and no house rules would be nice, otherwise anything's possible.

the reason I suggest this is because a DM friend of mine allows called shots, so if he just says the character has some fake feat and it allows him to lob off a characters head because the AC for the face is lower than your +4 plate mail and tower shield well that would be ridiculous to suddenly explain and pull off in mid game. I think it'd just be a lot easier to avoid blatant cheating by taking this stance "if you can prove it in an official book it goes, otherwise it doesn't work that way".

Another big thing is trust, if the players don't believe they can trust the guy calling the shots then they won't believe anything and there will be no fun and tons of arguing, I shouldn't have to mention this since you already know that, just pointing it out because it'll be even more the case when two groups are fighting each other.

That said, make sure everyone rolls their dice on the table in plain view of everyone, I had a lot of dice fudging in my campaign including the I roll then pickup the dice and move it to show the 20 instead of the low number trick, and when things get desperate crafty players might start trying to make their own luck.

I had PVP in a past game on a few occasions and it got ugly, heavily damaged how players interacted in following games, so I'd suggest thinking it through just in case you have overly sensitive grudge holders.

as far as the characters "evil" behavior, sounds like a stupid barbaric evil that just kills everything, if you want to throw in a single homebrew creature toss in the happy bunny (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Happy_Bunny_%283.5e_Creature%29), they will almost die and lessons will be learned.

If you want to go crazy with it toss a couple deitys in there, say Olidammara and Lolth are having a bet to see which party will win, other gods get in on it because Olidammara is persuasive, the benefit of this is even if the players die, the gods can UNDO it because it was a test! I wouldn't be upfront about it otherwise people will not feel the risk of dying, but it's a idea to get out of people getting angsty that their character died permanently if they're that type; Also Olidammara is the best so it's always good to find an excuse to have him do anything. :3

Also fighting a high level ninja is in single combat often stupid, if he had a weapon and the right feats the ninja could turn ethereal, use ghost strike and repeatedly sudden strike to death while being impervious to any damage unless the half-giant is dragging around a ghost touch weapon, which in my experience isn't likely (though I always do in games, just in case of incorporeal).

Another thing, Being lit on fire is no big deal too unless you're low level, 1d6 damage vs a reflex save? I played a firemage homebrew once that had the ability to spontaneously ignite people, it was mostly useless aside from slowing them down while they put themselves out.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm just going to leave this here. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html) Maybe focus on the second section.

[Gotterdammerung]

My party of more experienced players want to mess with a less experienced DM because he bastardized the rules(Claymores with 1d20 for damage) and the less experienced players (for the lulz/"a learning experience").

tl;dr We didn't think combat was going to happen, but certain personalities between the parties make it likelihood.

The background
We were initially considering lethal combat as a potential possibility, but nothing to really worry about. Maybe some faux fights, just for bragging rights (I.e. my ninja vs a half giant fighter in unarmed combat). Well, that was before we had met this fairy character. Apparently it's a beguiler (with 10 intelligence, btw), and some natural fire abilities (because DM). It preceded to make talk of "well, if that character tries anything, I'll just threaten him because I can light him on fire."

That Character: Why, a chaotic evil Elf that worships Lolth of course. Who immediately became friends with the party's half-orc fighter and Chaotic Evil Sorceror NPC (DM character) who will be joining us. How evil is he? Why the first time he got to torture victims, he caused the to overdose and die on sheer pain, and then ripped out and carried around their beating hearts. He gave one of them to a child in a day-care.

Surely the fairy wouldn't just attack something she met in a pub. Well, when we were watching a session of theirs, her reaction to an irritated wizard was, " well if he won't talk to us, we should just attack him." Yeah...

background end

There will be 2 DM's present, one from each party, and 11 total players (including our DM as an NPC from our campaign). Any tips for how to run an effective Party V Party session, and hide roll results in a way that doesn't slow down the game to crawl.

Or have we taken a giant dump on everything holy by even considering this.

It was hard for me to follow the details of this scenario due to poor grammar.

But from what little I could gleam, it seems petty. Both sides appear to be disrespectful braggarts.

That being said, if you decide to use existing characters from two different D&D groups, I think it is important that you respect the house rules of each GM, as they had important influences on the existing characters. If this is a problem then i recommend both GM's agreeing on the rules and then all players remaking their characters within the new guidelines.


Tips for actual Party Vs. Party Gameplay:

The easiest way to achieve a fair, fast, and fun party vs. party, Is to set up two gaming tables in two different areas. Put one party in one room and the other party in the other room. The Gm's then travel from room to room relaying the movements.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Can't say much besides get an impartial judge to DM, definitely not the DM that likes to change the game arbitrarily.

I understand where you're coming from, I had two DM's who liked to heavily modify the game so I'd say agree on rules prior to the game like core rules only and no house rules would be nice, otherwise anything's possible.

the reason I suggest this is because a DM friend of mine allows called shots, so if he just says the character has some fake feat and it allows him to lob off a characters head because the AC for the face is lower than your +4 plate mail and tower shield well that would be ridiculous to suddenly explain and pull off in mid game. I think it'd just be a lot easier to avoid blatant cheating by taking this stance "if you can prove it in an official book it goes, otherwise it doesn't work that way".That should be doable. We intend to have a couple sit downs with the other DM in the weeks leading up the main event. Hopefully we can set the ground rules for transferring between the two worlds.


Another big thing is trust, if the players don't believe they can trust the guy calling the shots then they won't believe anything and there will be no fun and tons of arguing, I shouldn't have to mention this since you already know that, just pointing it out because it'll be even more the case when two groups are fighting each other.

That said, make sure everyone rolls their dice on the table in plain view of everyone, I had a lot of dice fudging in my campaign including the I roll then pickup the dice and move it to show the 20 instead of the low number trick, and when things get desperate crafty players might start trying to make their own luck.How do you prevent the other team from knowing that you are slipping some oil of taggit into their ale? :smallwink:


I had PVP in a past game on a few occasions and it got ugly, heavily damaged how players interacted in following games, so I'd suggest thinking it through just in case you have overly sensitive grudge holders.Yeah, this should be a one-shot, universe-cross-over, thing. That said, we do have friends in the other party, and this may happen again. We were also given explicit instructions to not go completely overboard, so we can't completely kill them.


as far as the characters "evil" behavior, sounds like a stupid barbaric evil that just kills everything, if you want to throw in a single homebrew creature toss in the happy bunny (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Happy_Bunny_%283.5e_Creature%29), they will almost die and lessons will be learned.No, he just worships lolth, so he needed to get some torture in to honor her. He is a bit more developed than that. He's currently trying to corrupt the only good player in the party into becoming evil. So far he's been successful in getting her to follow him around, listen to his advice.


If you want to go crazy with it toss a couple deitys in there, say Olidammara and Lolth are having a bet to see which party will win, other gods get in on it because Olidammara is persuasive, the benefit of this is even if the players die, the gods can UNDO it because it was a test! I wouldn't be upfront about it otherwise people will not feel the risk of dying, but it's a idea to get out of people getting angsty that their character died permanently if they're that type; Also Olidammara is the best so it's always good to find an excuse to have him do anything. :3I actually like this. The problem is that we are going to the other DM's world, and he doesn't really have religion in his universe. Also, if religion was brought into the picture, things would get complicated and/or more violent

Our Party
Ranger 2/Spirit Shaman 2 - Lolth
Ninja 5 - Vec- shhh
Shugenja 5 - Confucianism+Buddhism Equivalent
Fighter 4 - Gruumsh
Sorceror 4 - ?

Their Party
Level 3 Fighter - ?
Level 3 Monk - "The Inner Eye"
Level 3 Wizard - "The Inner Eye"
Level 3 Beguiler - ?
Level 3 Cleric - ?
Level 3 bard -?

I would like to have some sort of safety net, but the other DM has shot down that idea before, when it was proposed for his intro section.


Also fighting a high level ninja is in single combat often stupid, if he had a weapon and the right feats the ninja could turn ethereal, use ghost strike and repeatedly sudden strike to death while being impervious to any damage unless the half-giant is dragging around a ghost touch weapon, which in my experience isn't likely (though I always do in games, just in case of incorporeal). Shh... they don't know that I'm a ninja and not a monk. >.>


Another thing, Being lit on fire is no big deal too unless you're low level, 1d6 damage vs a reflex save? I played a firemage homebrew once that had the ability to spontaneously ignite people, it was mostly useless aside from slowing them down while they put themselves out.Shh.... don't tell the fairy that.


Apologies for the bad grammar. Well, not so much bad grammar as bad syntax, what with all my "well, not"s and "what with"s and "also"s.

I'm just going to leave this here. (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html) Maybe focus on the second section.*reads*

Danke for the link

[Hawkings]

When dice rolling if a DM cheats it's to enhance the story, if a player cheats it's to break the game.

the DM should still make hidden rolls like normal, but since this is PVP the DM is little more than referee. so to avoid dice roll cheating just have every player roll it on a table in clear view, no one touching or interacting with it until the DM see's, determine whether or not you accept rolls that fall off the table or reroll beforehand. This might seem a bit strict but I haven't had a player yet that found it unreasonable.

Don't allow dice dropping, honestly I can cheat by dropping a D6 so that it always lands on 5-6 super easy by flipping it at the right height, it only took a couple hours of practice, I can also spin a D20 so when it lands it'll spin on the number I want but look as if it was actually rolled. I'd like to note here I'm less a cheater and more of a learn to cheat to know what to watch out for type of person; that said looking up cheating with dice on youtube is ridiculously easy and effective enough.

I really like the idea of having the two DMs relaying from room to room with identical maps, this gives the players free reign to plan strategies like they would in a normal session without fear of the other players.

As far as religion goes from what I can tell the D&D universe allows for many pantheons that simply don't interact heavily. I think of it like AO determines what realms each god reigns over and they're stuck in it, that way there can be several gods working not over the entirety of the multi-verse but managing sections of it. Using this idea I allowed a player to roll a christian in a standard D&D setting who's back story was he fell into a reality maelstrom. He just ran around talking about how he worshiped the over god and everyone thought it was AO, and ignored him since most mortals know worshiping AO is a waste of time in the D&D universe.

That being said it doesn't mean they can't influence a realm on the fringe of their influence, perhaps the players who are their worshipers give them a slimmer of reach into this new area simply by being there, anchoring the deity's reach into this new realm, a prospect most deity's might welcome, new followers in a empty zone? massive power boost of new worshipers in a realm with no composition(an example of this would be the last seasons of stargate). this could turn it into a beachhead of a new war between two realms because for all any one knows the gods invade new realms to increase influence all the time and the typical mortal just doesn't know that; after all who even knows what gods do all day.

this would give you some story element to the scenario instead of just "GRR lets fight" helping motivate the players by achieving some goal for their respective sides and giving meaning to this otherwise meaningless brawl; which would help if you want reoccurring skirmishes. it might also be fun for their own games to suddenly have religious or counter religious groups from each others universe appear occasionally in each others games; with using extra planar travel the plot devices are near endless.

Oh and if I'm not mistaken a character who goes to another plane of existence is considered an outsider of some form or another, might be wrong, only read some of the planar handbook.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I like the idea of spreading religion in the new land/zone. Especially Gruumsh.

In the other DM's world, the Orcs are more like native American's, who have been pushed off their land. Throw in some Gruumsh philosophy about take what belongs to the Orcs (everything)... and that would make his world more interesting.

Thanks for the idea, it should make our stay there much more interesting when we do that session. For now, I just need to focus on figuring out how to turn one of my party (Lawful Evil) Party members in for the reward money. :smalltongue:

Anyway, thanks for the advice.