Punish the DM

[Strormer]

Right, so I hope this is the right place to do this. I have had a DM who has some serious issues with forcing his views on his players' characters. He has a few classes which he does not think can be combat effective and he'll do nearly anything in game that he can to ensure that those classes are not combat effective. These include Clerics, which he says are only good for healing, any Archer, and any unarmed including Monks. No matter what I've tried whenever I played one of these he somehow managed to kill me off when I started to be combat effective. I want to build one of these that will be optimized to all hell so that he'll have to do something obvious like killing me in a "cut-scene" in order to take me down, but I'm not much of an optimizer since I really play for the fun and not for the idea of winning.
Anyone have a suggestion for a hardcore combat optimized Cleric, Monk, or Archer?
Thanks, playground. I just wanna hammer one of his PC-molesting NPCs, just once.

[Vladislav]

Level and allowed sources?

[GnomeGninjas]

What every you do don't try to prove him wrong with a monk.

[Arbane]

Leave. Unless he's really fantastic at some other part of the game, putting up with a jerk DM isn't generally worth the bother.

That said, if you want to make your point on the way out the door... What levels are you playing at, and how does he feel about druids?

Sadly, he is probably correct about the monks.

[Keld Denar]

If he's gonna kill you during the cinematics, it won't matter how optimized or invincible you are. You aren't gonna win this fight. The only way to win is to not play.

[Demonic_Spoon]

Long range artillery style archer? Possibly a nightstick abusing cleric? Really, just look up any abuses for one of those classes. I recall the twice betrayer of Shar being a cleric so you could do that I suppose.

Cleric Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866830/The_Cleric_Handbook)

[Studoku]

Monks are weak- he's right about that. Archers aren't great but there are a few tricks you can do.

He's completely wrong about cleric. Assuming you have enough levels and access to Complete Divine, you can get some serious power out of clerics. As your feats, take Extend Spell, Persist Spell and Divine Metamagic (persist). Any other feats go towards extra turning- you need 7 (and ideally more) turn attempts per day.

This allows you to persist spells by using turn undead uses instead of increasing its level. It takes 7 per spell (until you find ways to reduce it) but it means some of the nastiest combat buffs can be as good as permanent. Divine Power is enough for you to equal the fighter while still being a full caster. Start adding Righteous Might and Divine favour and it gets even more insane.

Then you add nightsticks...

[Daer]

start making gimpest possible builded fighters or what ever he thinks are great.

[Mooncrow]

Actually, Cleric archers are pretty darn awesome.

[Douglas]

What level and what allowed sources?

I might actually be able to cram all three concepts into one build, just for the heck of it. Imagine, a heavily buffed cleric attacking at range with his fists. Required components: standard DMM (Persist) buffing, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Blood Wind (spell that lets you use natural weapons at range).

Anyway, to help best I'll need to know what level to build for and what books I can draw things from. The higher the level and the more books, the more broken I can get it.

[Strormer]

Sorry, sorry. I forgot to list levels. He allows all the complete books, except psionic, and core. Level 13. Average money for that level.

Also, yeah, I should just get out, but the story really is fantastic. I just want to see if I can force his hand so that he has to use cinematic tactics rather than do what he does in-game.

[Snowbluff]

Ruin the way he wants you to play. Can only use core books cuz other books are op? PLAY A DRUID AND WRECK IT!

[Douglas]

Hmm, level 13 gives a fair bit of room to work with, but the books list leaves some to be desired. No Spell Compendium or Magic Item Compendium? The "Races of <blank>" series has a few things that would help too. Libris Mortis has the famous Nightsticks, of course, but I'd stay away from abusing those too much.

[Basket Burner]

Right, so I hope this is the right place to do this. I have had a DM who has some serious issues with forcing his views on his players' characters. He has a few classes which he does not think can be combat effective and he'll do nearly anything in game that he can to ensure that those classes are not combat effective. These include Clerics, which he says are only good for healing, any Archer, and any unarmed including Monks. No matter what I've tried whenever I played one of these he somehow managed to kill me off when I started to be combat effective. I want to build one of these that will be optimized to all hell so that he'll have to do something obvious like killing me in a "cut-scene" in order to take me down, but I'm not much of an optimizer since I really play for the fun and not for the idea of winning.
Anyone have a suggestion for a hardcore combat optimized Cleric, Monk, or Archer?
Thanks, playground. I just wanna hammer one of his PC-molesting NPCs, just once.

Cleric is incredibly easy. He's definitely right about Monks though, and is almost certainly right about archers as well. Unfortunately though he's just fiating you out, so there's no getting through to him regardless.

[Strormer]

Right, then I suppose I'll go with a battle cleric and run with CD as much as I can. Thanks all.

[Douglas]

Hey, if you really want hardcore optimization it's way too early to thank people and bow out. No one's given you more than vague assurances and bits and pieces of suggestions yet.

Just to be clear, here: Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium, and the Races of series are all out of bounds, correct?

[Claudius Maximus]

Sacred Fist from Complete Divine technically has full casting (the text, which says full casting, trumps the table). That would let you punch people with your cleric with minimal sacrifice, if you want to do more than one of these concepts.

Ultimately though, I think this is an out of game issue. Talk to this guy about laying fair and not stomping on these concepts. If you approach him right and he's reasonable he might just ease up on this sort of thing.

Edit: And yeah, we can probably set up a whole build for you, if you want. We can still help you out.

[Yuki Akuma]

Make a Cleric archer. Elf works, with Zen Archery and a few other things I don't remember right now.

Alternatively: "No gaming is better than bad gaming". Get out. Preferably after biting the DM.

[kardar233]

Cleric Archer is a perfectly valid build due to Zen Archery, which I believe is in Complete Warrior.

Punchy-cleric can be achieved through Sacred Fist. Works well with the bucket's worth of Persisted buffs you'll be able to toss on yourself.

If douglas says he can fit both of them into a build I wouldn't doubt him. Check out some of his Inferno Mage fights sometime.

[Templarkommando]

Killing a PC off in a "cinematic" is cheap and mean. It's also only barely hanging on in my mind because of rule zero. The thing is that rule zero isn't license to be a jerk. It's akin to killing off a plot-central character in a video game that can take a hail of bullets in regular gameplay, but goes down in a cutscene like they have a glass jaw.

Your DM's universe is suffering from continuity issues if he's killing you off in cutscenes.

[Aemoh87]

Here is what I would do. I would get d20 modern and build a fast hero. With some sweet guns. Because it's kinda a monk and would do pretty well in 3.5 with gunslinger advanced class. You cheat. You win. You get weapons that don't fit the time period which is great.

And before this happens you get in a stupid argument in which you argue reverse arrows works against bullets so when he shuts you down and rules against you, you become invincible!

But seriously your story sounds like he shouldn't DM. The best part of DMing is creating moments of revelation for the characters, not killing them. Killing them is easy, you know their weaknesses. I guess I am saying don't play with him.

[Elric VIII]

Right, so I hope this is the right place to do this. I have had a DM who has some serious issues with forcing his views on his players' characters. He has a few classes which he does not think can be combat effective and he'll do nearly anything in game that he can to ensure that those classes are not combat effective. These include Clerics, which he says are only good for healing, any Archer, and any unarmed including Monks. No matter what I've tried whenever I played one of these he somehow managed to kill me off when I started to be combat effective. I want to build one of these that will be optimized to all hell so that he'll have to do something obvious like killing me in a "cut-scene" in order to take me down, but I'm not much of an optimizer since I really play for the fun and not for the idea of winning.
Anyone have a suggestion for a hardcore combat optimized Cleric, Monk, or Archer?
Thanks, playground. I just wanna hammer one of his PC-molesting NPCs, just once.

I feel your pain, I had a Cleric that was basically an immortal combat medic, with a bit of melee thrown in. My DM screwed me over before the final boss battle with some combination of Dead Magic and Disjunction that did not affect anyone else and was completely undetectable by me (multiple divinations and Arcane Sight).

That said, if you're interested in being immortal, undeath is a nice way to go. My character is a Bone Knight (non-DMM:persist), but you can easily mimic the class features with some liberal buffing and DMM:Persist. If nightsitcks are not allowed, just be a Human with 2 flaws, take Undeath Domain (Extra Turning) or Planning domain (Extend Spell) then take Power Attack and Persist. Make all of your other feats Extra Turning (and make your second domain something that gets a variety of turning, to get double the effect out of ET). Oh, and take Cloistered Cleric to add some Knowledge Devotion on to that.

[Aemoh87]

I feel your pain, I had a Cleric that was basically an immortal combat medic, with a bit of melee thrown in. My DM screwed me over before the final boss battle with some combination of Dead Magic and Disjunction that did not affect anyone else and was completely undetectable by me (multiple divinations and Arcane Sight).

That said, if you're interested in being immortal, undeath is a nice way to go. My character is a Bone Knight (non-DMM:persist), but you can easily mimic the class features with some liberal buffing and DMM:Persist. If nightsitcks are not allowed, just be a Human with 2 flaws, take Undeath Domain (Extra Turning) or Planning domain (Extend Spell) then take Power Attack and Persist. Make all of your other feats Extra Turning (and make your second domain something that gets a variety of turning, to get double the effect out of ET). Oh, and take Cloistered Cleric to add some Knowledge Devotion on to that.

Don't forget domain swap from CChamp to turn extra domains into turning domains, then collect a bunch of random extras. And make sure you have turn and rebuke.

[Tokuhara]

My Suggestion:

Play the following build:

Race: Human (or Favorite Elf Subrace)
Class: Cleric of Re-Horthanky 7/Radiant Servant of Re-Horthanky 10/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 1/Church Inquisitor 1

With the human version, be a caster who refuses to heal (granted, it makes the players a little jittery, but hey, prove him wrong).

On the Elf side, be a Spellslinging Archer. Use your powerful divine magic to smash all who dare oppose you.


Plan B is:

Race: Human
Class: Hexblade 6/Ur Priest 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Geomancer 10/Abjurant Champion 2

This requires you to be baby-eating puppy-kicking rooster-blockingly EVIL!!!, but if you play this, you once and for all prove that Clerics (kind of) don't suck. Just use lots of Charisma-based divine feats and do all sorts of fun things in melee

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you really think this sort of behavior is going to be helpful, then we might as well help you. Calmly talking and presenting your concerns doesn't always work, but I strongly suggest trying it first if you haven't. That said, building a powerful character to force the DM's hand is valid as a last resort, especially if it foments rebellion from the other players. I'll throw together a "Cleric Smash" build soon.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961.0

Quickstart Cleric Archer. Use it. Currently the BG boards are down, just paste that into google with "cache:" in front of it for the page.

[Randomguy]

Three words: persistent divine power. You now outclass a paladin in almost every possible way. Beware dispel magic, but you're still decent without it.

Some good spells for one on one combat are hold person (Save or lose), poison (save or suck) and bestow curse (save or suck).

If you decide to be a monk/cleric or go unarmed combat then the inflict spells are also great.

Spiritual weapon is also a good spell to persist, since when persisted it's basically another sword arm for the rest of the day. It's important to watch out for dispel magic with that, too though.

Wisdom should probably be your best stat, for obvious reasons. Next, charisma, for more turn attempts. After that, strength. You'll need at least 13 dex if you plan on being an archer, since even with zen archery you need dex to qualify for feats that improve your archery.

[Tokuhara]

If you really think this sort of behavior is going to be helpful, then we might as well help you. Calmly talking and presenting your concerns doesn't always work, but I strongly suggest trying it first if you haven't. That said, building a powerful character to force the DM's hand is valid as a last resort, especially if it foments rebellion from the other players. I'll throw together a "Cleric Smash" build soon.

Didn't I thow together a decent Cleric Smash build using Ur-Priest?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Didn't I thow together a decent Cleric Smash build using Ur-Priest?Yeah well, I didn't know swordsages could build decent clerics <_<

But if he wants an honest to goodness Cleric with a dash of PrCs he'd probably be better off using your first build or one of the BG ones.

[Strormer]

Yeah, I did try talking with him. He told me that I was trying to make characters do things they weren't designed to do and that I was basically playing the game wrong. (Paraphrase)
The game is nearly over and I have to make a replacement for my dead character, so I wanted to see what I could do about a quick face-slap for my DM. I'm not alone in my hate. We have an archer ranger who he house ruled that his bow enchantments cost twice as much as they would for normal characters. His reasoning was that a two-weapon ranger has to enchant two weapons (thus twice as much cost) so the archer enchantments should cost double to balance. Bunk, I know, but that's his rule now. Still, if I can make a worthwhile archer within his rules, I think that would be beast.
Also, sorry for seeming like I'm running off, I had to go to work and I just wanted to say thanks for the help, not bow out.
I really like the Cleric Zen Archer. Two birds with one stone and I don't have to play a monk, which makes me happy. (So sick of monk after the one time I made one.)
I'll look up the Cleric Archer build you linked.
Thanks again.
Incidentally, I've never played an archer before. I usually go two-weapon ranger/barbarian or I play bard in rp heavy games. Is an Oathbow a good magic weapon for a mid-level archer cleric?

[Aemoh87]

You know what. Your DM stinks, he should accept that there is no right way to play. Some of the worst optimizers I know are my favorite people to play with because they rely on their inventiveness and role playing to work through challenges and it can be amazingly fun. Now if there is differences in character powers and it effects game play that can be corrected, but since when has a build ever been not good enough? Play what makes you happy by RAW, until he gives you a reason to delve your character into his world and play by his rules.

[faceroll]

To get the most mileage out of divine metamagic, do the following:
At level 1, use the alternate turning feature in CD to do damage with your turns instead of the current mechanic. At level 6 or 10 or whatever, when you qualify for Sacred Exorcist, take a level of that.

Congratulations, you've doubled your turns/day.

You'll also want domains Planning & Undeath (if you can justify having the undeath domain on a good cleric).

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's a copy paste of the google cache of it:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fbrilliantgameologist s.com%2Fboards%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D10961.0

It is a great thread, with a few minor issues (read the comments).

Also, Oathbow sucks.

Were you serious about a VoP Monk being powerful, by the way? It's objectively one of the weakest options in the game.

[Hawkings]

I hate to pop in since I'm terrible at optimization, but wouldn't it be easy for a DM to sidestep a cleric by throwing monsters against them they're weak against, turn attempts a day only work against undead and related creatures right? what if he starts throwing constructs or oozes at your ranged cleric and says "Ah ha ha the ooze is only hurt by BLUDGEONING WEAPONS! HAR HAR HAR!" then breaks your bow in half because he's a horrible person.

I've had DMs like that, the fantastic story is rarely worth the DM train ride though.

Also had a game where my friend and I were a Rogue/assassin and ninja combo, we death/sneak attack/sudden striked everything to instant death, so imagine our surprise in no time when we ended up fighting nothing but undead, immune to all our most potent tricks, to which we said sneak around them, and he said "sense life" or whatever ability let undead see living, can't remember the name off the top of my head.

point is if he's trying to make a point to go out of his way to brutalize specific play types, either surprise him with the abilities (which he can just instant houserule to not work) or outshine the fighter and make barbarians cry.

I agree with biting the DM on the way out though. :3

[Lord Thurlvin]

I'm not alone in my hate. We have an archer ranger who he house ruled that his bow enchantments cost twice as much as they would for normal characters. His reasoning was that a two-weapon ranger has to enchant two weapons (thus twice as much cost) so the archer enchantments should cost double to balance. Bunk, I know, but that's his rule now. Still, if I can make a worthwhile archer within his rules, I think that would be beast.

How long has this guy been DMing?

[Strormer]

Yeah, on the way out. Sorta leaving a message.

Also, my VoP monk was strong, but I'd also used about a dozen sourcebooks and a lot of fancy tinkering to get her that way. She was really good in fights where she could charge up and pound on the enemy for a couple turns, then jump back and get healed. She was sorta one hit wonder in that sense. She had a very specific use and couldn't stand alone.
As a point of interest, she actually ended up losing her VoP in the end of the game, but also turning on the party to support the villain because he had her brother's soul captive, or so she was led to believe. The party fighter smushed her in two rounds when she went up against him, but he admitted he'd've been in trouble if I'd had a healer, just because I dropped the casters first and had powerhouse undead warriors as my minions holding the party cleric down. My backup, the evil necromancer, promptly used my showdown with the party as a chance to escape, only to be forcibly brought back by the party wizard and some well played teleporting shinanigans. I suppose that's my measure of a strong monk. I held my own against a greatsword highly optimized fighter with a party backing him up and would've won with backup of my own. Still, a Wizard that I didn't grapple in the surprise round would've posed a serious threat, even with my saves. My goals were drop the Wiz, drop the Bard, remove the threat of the cleric for now, drop the fighter, finish the cleric, party is doomed. I got to step three. ^_^

Also, he's been a DM for years, but always with one of two groups, and his stories have been enough to hold the groups for a while, but the crap is starting to wear down the group's patience.

[faceroll]

I hate to pop in since I'm terrible at optimization, but wouldn't it be easy for a DM to sidestep a cleric by throwing monsters against them they're weak against, turn attempts a day only work against undead and related creatures right? what if he starts throwing constructs or oozes at your ranged cleric and says "Ah ha ha the ooze is only hurt by BLUDGEONING WEAPONS! HAR HAR HAR!" then breaks your bow in half because he's a horrible person.

I've had DMs like that, the fantastic story is rarely worth the DM train ride though.

Also had a game where my friend and I were a Rogue/assassin and ninja combo, we death/sneak attack/sudden striked everything to instant death, so imagine our surprise in no time when we ended up fighting nothing but undead, immune to all our most potent tricks, to which we said sneak around them, and he said "sense life" or whatever ability let undead see living, can't remember the name off the top of my head.

point is if he's trying to make a point to go out of his way to brutalize specific play types, either surprise him with the abilities (which he can just instant houserule to not work) or outshine the fighter and make barbarians cry.

I agree with biting the DM on the way out though. :3

Optimized clerics never use their turning attempts for anything other than boosting the power of their spells over 9000.

[Mooncrow]

I hate to pop in since I'm terrible at optimization, but wouldn't it be easy for a DM to sidestep a cleric by throwing monsters against them they're weak against, turn attempts a day only work against undead and related creatures right? what if he starts throwing constructs or oozes at your ranged cleric and says "Ah ha ha the ooze is only hurt by BLUDGEONING WEAPONS! HAR HAR HAR!" then breaks your bow in half because he's a horrible person.

I've had DMs like that, the fantastic story is rarely worth the DM train ride though.

Also had a game where my friend and I were a Rogue/assassin and ninja combo, we death/sneak attack/sudden striked everything to instant death, so imagine our surprise in no time when we ended up fighting nothing but undead, immune to all our most potent tricks, to which we said sneak around them, and he said "sense life" or whatever ability let undead see living, can't remember the name off the top of my head.

point is if he's trying to make a point to go out of his way to brutalize specific play types, either surprise him with the abilities (which he can just instant houserule to not work) or outshine the fighter and make barbarians cry.

I agree with biting the DM on the way out though. :3

Well, ideally you're using turn attempts on something that's not turning undead - DMM, or Devotion feats for example. And the cleric archer has enough options that no matter what kind of enemies the DM throws in, they are still going to have plenty of tricks left to play; because after all, they still have a cleric's full casting ability at hand. He breaks your bow? Just lay in a collection of non-magical ones and cast Greater Magic Weapon on them as needed. It's always a good idea to have a few summon spells prepared as well - by this level you have enough options that between the melee attacks and the SLAs you can provide offense against anything.

Basically, the cleric is powerful enough that squashing it is going to take a "rocks fall, cleric dies" level of DM dickery, and I think that's what the OP is after.

(it's called Lifesense btw, and yeah, that type of "punishment for using class abilities" makes me rrrrrrrage ><)

[Gavinfoxx]

With that description of the VoP Monk and the sorts of things characters did... um, lets just say that the sort of story for that has a very low optimization threshold. The sorts of things you are talking about happening in that post really only take place in low op games.

In such games, something as simple as a PHB/DMG/MM1 Orc Barbarian mounted on a flying mount he bought with his wealth by level, with max strength who Rages and Spirited Charges enemies, while power attacking with a two handed lance would probably be considered overpowered, because it is capable of one shotting things, even though it spent basically all of its resources to be able to do that one single trick (or power attack with greatsword when not mounted)...

Try doing the math to see how much damage such a creature would do on a charge, and what the to hit would be. It's surprising. ;)

Lessee... 18 str + 4 orc = 22 str, barbarian rage is +4 = 26 str. Every 4th level put into STR. By level 9, you have 28 str with a 2h lance is 9+4 = +13 str.

L1: Power Attack
L3: Mounted Combat
L6: Ride by attack
L9: Spirited Charge

Full charge two handed power attack is +13 str to hit, +2 charge to hit for +15. Damage is 1d8+13 (str) + 18 (power attack) x 3, for an average of 106.5 damage on a charge at level 9, if my math is right. This is with a completely mundane Lance...

Also, have you read this?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

also seen here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fbrilliantgameologist s.com%2Fboards%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D420

[Strormer]

Yes, I did see that actually, as well as the archer cleric primer. Both are indeed useful.
Incidentally, yeah, the Monk was in a very RP heavy game, thus the changing sides. In the combat heavy game I want the archer cleric for, the monk would be less dangerous to most opponents than gum on the sidewalk. Can you picture how irritating it would be for a skeleton to pick gum out of its foot? So much worse than your average monk. :smallwink:

[Gavinfoxx]

Hey! Monks make fantastic lackeys and gofers for powerful people. They can run quickly and for long periods of time and carry documents back and forth, and are fantastic at getting away from trouble...

[Strormer]

True, and if you happen to be a commander of an army you would really want a legion of monks. They can charge out and stall the murderous rampage of enemies much further away than normal footsoldiers could hope to.
That and if they're large and high level they could make excellent mounts for open minded cavalry. I'm picturing an epic fields of pelennor done with lance wielding cavaliers chicken fighting atop Ogre monks while the king drinks and laughs at the show before fleeing in his grand dirigible.

[Knight9910]

It's been my experience that when someone is that adamant about something they'll go to any lengths to keep their ignorance. People don't like to feel like they're stupid, and one thing even ignorant people are very good at is justification.

The point I'm making is, if your goal here is to prove him wrong, don't bother. Even if you manage to find the perfect cleric/archer that even he can't kill, he'll just accuse you of cheating, houserule that none of your abilities work anymore, kill your character, possibly ban you from the game, and go back to his merry little life.

If your goal is just to be a prick, then...well, have fun with that I guess.

[Killer Angel]

Yeah, I did try talking with him. He told me that I was trying to make characters do things they weren't designed to do and that I was basically playing the game wrong. (Paraphrase)


Tell him that he's reading the game wrong. Completely wrong. Clerics were designed to fight.
1) 3.x gave the clerics spontaneous casting (cure) exactly for the reason that in this way they will cure only if there's need of it, while they're free do study more effective spells.
2) other than fight, what could be the reason for spells like Divine Power and Righteous Might? or for domains like Strenght and Destruction?

Of course the 3.0 core designers didn't expect future things like DMM, but the chassis for cleric is built for war.

[HunterOfJello]

I very strongly discourage monk characters in non-gestalt games and would likely do so if someone wanted to play a fully dedicated archer. Both fighting styles are just too inefficient in d&d. Things change significantly if the person playing a PC with one of those fighting styles is an optimizer. Any character type should be completely reevaluated once heavy optimization and smart PrC use comes in. Your DM should be shown a few very effective monk options like Talashatora Psychic Warriors and Warshapers in order to display that while pure core monks are obviously retarded, there are good and effective options out there to improve such a terrible class like the monk into a melee combatant more effective than any of the non-spellcasting core classes.


As far as clerics go, he's just ignorant.

[The Boz]

True, and if you happen to be a commander of an army you would really want a legion of monks.

A Vow of Poverty army would be dirt cheap.

[PetterTomBos]

What about angering your god? Choose a god that agrees with you, and possibly be of the 100% right alignment, to avoid seeing him say:

"When you try to pray for spells, the gods are disappointed in you and only gives you healing"...

Perhaps heironeus?

[Killer Angel]

Perhaps heironeus?

I would say: a good half of the gods in the PH...

[faceroll]

Don't pick a god.

[Killer Angel]

Don't pick a god.

There's wisdom in your words. Very "on topic", given that wisdom is the primary stat for clerics... :smalltongue:

[docnessuno]

Every sane archer in the world will want THIS (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) bow

the problems with archers is DR. Low damage/arrow means even a DR 10 (pretty common in the 10-15 bracket) will reduce your damage output to absymal levels.

The energy bow, dealing force damage, just bypasses any DR (and force resistence is so rare we don't even need to talk about it). Plus 2d6 base damage and auto-scaling str bonus is great.

[Tokuhara]

Worship the Ideals of Munchkinnery. Pick the two most powerful domains, use the ACF that drops the spontaneous healing (or be evil and tell him to bite you, because you worship an evil god/demon/devil/ELDER EVIL) and you se devotion, DMM: Persist, and divine feats to make yourself the party.

On second thought... Be Evil. I don't mean, "oh, my alignment's evil..." hipster garbage. No, I mean, "I worship a being that wants to destroy EVERYTHING except his followers. I willingly warped my mind, cursed my body, and became truly VILE. And now I want to spread this "gift" to every person." evil. Think Jahova's Witness from HELL (If anyone on the forums is a Jahova's Witness, I am sorry)

[Coidzor]

Have you tried asking him why he's anti-fun?

Smacking him for being an ass and deliberately building the game to kill off your character specifically?

Taking the hint that he hates you personally and ceasing to play with him?

[Tokuhara]

Have you tried asking him why he's anti-fun?

Smacking him for being an ass and deliberately building the game to kill off your character specifically?

Taking the hint that he hates you personally and ceasing to play with him?

I would agree with you, but I did precisely this a year ago, and then realized that he was the ONLY DM in the Area. Granted, I earned my spot back in the group, but I hate the words (core only) that tend to leave his mouth

[Coidzor]

I would agree with you, but I did precisely this a year ago, and then realized that he was the ONLY DM in the Area. Granted, I earned my spot back in the group, but I hate the words (core only) that tend to leave his mouth

So you're saying that the entire group are idiots that love being abused? Or personally agree with the DM's hatred for you? :smallconfused: Why would you want to play with them even if those were the only people you had available?

[Tokuhara]

So you're saying that the entire group are idiots that love being abused? Or personally agree with the DM's hatred for you? :smallconfused: Why would you want to play with them even if those were the only people you had available?

I'm saying, if you are like me, sometimes bad D&D is better than no d&d

[Balor01]

You can not pwn this in-game. Just talk to him ... or leave ...

I do not even understand why people reply to this threads, suggesting builds. DM is omnipotent and will f*ck you up if he is a douche, no matter the build.

Just get a new DM man. Not some munchkin-ish builds.

[Tokuhara]

You can not pwn this in-game. Just talk to him ... or leave ...

I do not even understand why people reply to this threads, suggesting builds. DM is omnipotent and will f*ck you up if he is a douche, no matter the build.

Just get a new DM man. Not some munchkin-ish builds.

Or do what I do: Don't play what he wants you to play. He doesn't like Cleric, Monk, and Archers, then don't play them. Play druid, unarmed swordsage, and a thrower build and tell him to shove off

[Hellwyrm]

Hey! Monks make fantastic lackeys and gofers for powerful people. They can run quickly and for long periods of time and carry documents back and forth, and are fantastic at getting away from trouble...

Hey, I know a class feature that's good for that too!
Don't you love wizards? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars)

But seriously, I lol'd when I read this.:smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

I'm saying, if you are like me, sometimes bad D&D is better than no d&d

In any case, advising people to stay in an abusive relationship is generally the less desirable option for the general go-to response. Even if that abusive relationship is just a power-tripping DM who gets his jollies from molesting the PCs.

Actually, considering the DM apparently molests PCs in game, that probably goes double in this case. :smallyuk:

[Chained Birds]

Can clerics get the Gravity Bow spell? If so, then does that scale with the Energy Bow linked earlier?

Regardless, best way to break game as a cleric (minus Chain-Gating) is DMMing every buff you are legally allowed. Have Fun!

Oh, and I second being evil, and maybe do a little necromany for a Zombie Hydra or Dragon. Knowledge (arcane/history) to learn of the final resting places of these creatures, or find a Bard (They know pretty much everything and can be found almost everywhere). Remember to desecrate in the name of [insert name], if you want, and have fun. Bonus points if you can heal via negative energy by being undead, through a PrC (Doe Bone Knight do this?) or taking that one feat (name escapes me).

So enjoy riding your fellow anti-thesis while shooting randomly with your infinite Force arrows of Doom and maybe killing some big things with 1 of your many, many, many save-or-suck/save-or-die spells (and I guess your party can tag along...).

[Novawurmson]

Be a necromancer and raise all of your dead characters :D

Just kidding, of course. If the campaign is almost over, finish it up, say goodbye (nicely) and never return. For bonus points, start your own campaign and be a reasonable DM.

Try not to be a jerk.


From Culture and Manners Institute:

It was the dreaded day of the big layoff. One by one we were called into the office of a vice president of a company that had just purchased our company, to be let go by a man we did not know. I had heard that a few people before me had lashed out at him with angry words, some had burst into tears.

When it came to my turn, he looked like a man who had been through it. Instead of issuing a parting shot, I smiled and said to him, "I enjoyed my time here and I learned a great deal. I am grateful for the experience and I thank you for that." He was pleasantly surprised. We chatted for a minute, he smiled, shook my hand and I went on my way.

Though I left the company as a "coordinator," I returned a few months later to interview for a managerial position. One of the people I had to interview with was this same vice president. When I walked into his office, he smiled and said, "I remember you." I got the job.

Build bridges, don't burn them. Be nice to everyone, because the most unlikely characters may become the greatest asset to your career.

Applies to roleplaying games, too.

[Tyndmyr]

Hmm, level 13 gives a fair bit of room to work with, but the books list leaves some to be desired. No Spell Compendium or Magic Item Compendium? The "Races of <blank>" series has a few things that would help too. Libris Mortis has the famous Nightsticks, of course, but I'd stay away from abusing those too much.

Whatever, that still gives him access to complete divine, extend, persist, and craft contingent spell.

You can break a cleric with that.

[Douglas]

Whatever, that still gives him access to complete divine, extend, persist, and craft contingent spell.

You can break a cleric with that.
Yeah, but it doesn't include any of the easy ways I know of to get triple turning pools for DMM, and Greater Mighty Wallop (accessed through Greater Anyspell) isn't in there and I don't know if Blood Wind was first printed in a Complete book so the extra components that would allow making the cleric an ultra-damage ranged unarmed attacker (rocket fist!) aren't available.

[Aemoh87]

Optimized clerics never use their turning attempts for anything other than boosting the power of their spells over 9000.

+1. This is fact. And that is why turn plant is better than everything but wildshape and spells.

[Tyndmyr]

+1. This is fact. And that is why turn plant is better than everything but wildshape and spells.

Turn plant doesn't power DMM.

[Ingus]

My two coppers

This is the easiest canvas of an optimized cleric archer

Race: Elf

Class: Cleric 13

Stats: Max (in order) dexterity, constitution, wisdom, strenght

Feats: True Believer (of Corellon) This give you access to two special relics, both very good: a Longbow and a chainmail (Complete Divine), Knowledge Devotion which give you huge bonuses on attacks and damage provide you max knowledges, other shaneningas available (Complete Champion), ... complete feats to your taste (do not take the manyshot chain: it's a trap!)

Skill tricks: Collector of Stories +5 to knowledge checks, sinergizes with Knowledge Devotion, Complete Scoundrel

Equipment: Bow of the Wintermoon (via True Believer), which, among other things, adjust itself to add full strenght to damange (sinergizes very well with Divine Power + Righteous Might) cost: 18.550 Add "Seeking" (DMM) or the powers of an "Oathbow" (DMM) for further fun.
Millennial Chainmail (via True Believer), fast healing 3 and very good bonuses cost: 18.800.
50 +1 Spell Storing arrows (have fun with the spells embedded; ever suggested: Bestrow Curse, if you have a druid in the party, I humbly suggest Poison). Cost: arrows + 8.000
50 +1 Holy Cold Iron Arrows Cost: arrows + 20.000

Tactics: do cleric stuff as usual, never forget your life saving buffs (you said you may be a focused enemy for your DM) and use archery to your favour.
As said, your bow should help you hitting good and often, do more damage and be effective and dangerous without risking in the first line.
Against BBEG foe: Divine Power and Righteous Might yourself, so you'll have a flat +10 to strenght. With a base Str score of 10 and a maxed Dex score of 26, you'll end up with To Hit: 9(base) + 9(dex) + 4(bow) +3(avg, Know. Dev) = 25 and 2d6 + 9 + [2d6(holy) or spell effect(spell storing)] + 3(avg, Know.Dev.) and still not maxed.
Against incorporeal / invisible foes: Truesight + Seeking bow
Against melee crowds: Holy Word or other crowd control spells

...and so on, with normal bread and butter cleric tactics.

[Aemoh87]

Turn plant doesn't power DMM.

As written it does. I forgot which book explains it and I am away from mine but all the turns/rebukes, can give you turn attempts to power DMM as they function just like turn undead. Or I am wrong and I just thought it worked the same, but I am pretty sure it works.

[Douglas]

As written it does. I forgot which book explains it and I am away from mine but all the turns/rebukes, can give you turn attempts to power DMM as they function just like turn undead. Or I am wrong and I just thought it worked the same, but I am pretty sure it works.
No, DMM very specifically requires and uses Turn/Rebuke Undead, not Turn/Rebuke <insert creature type here>. Getting around that requires finding a Turning variation that specifically states that it can be used in place of Turn/Rebuke Undead for the purpose of Divine feats, and there aren't very many of those.

[Tyndmyr]

As written it does. I forgot which book explains it and I am away from mine but all the turns/rebukes, can give you turn attempts to power DMM as they function just like turn undead. Or I am wrong and I just thought it worked the same, but I am pretty sure it works.

DMM specifies that turn undead uses are sacrificed to power it...it's quite explicit. Now, if you have some way to convert them from turn x to turn undead, you're golden, but until then, it's not useful for that specific purpose(though it still would be for less specific things).

[Jolly]

I would agree with you, but I did precisely this a year ago, and then realized that he was the ONLY DM in the Area. Granted, I earned my spot back in the group, but I hate the words (core only) that tend to leave his mouth

There are two million eight hundred thousand some people in Chicago (which your profiles indicates is your home). There's only one DM out of that population?

[Basket Burner]

Zen Archery. What is this Dex you speak of?

[Deophaun]

There are two million eight hundred thousand some people in Chicago (which your profiles indicates is your home). There's only one DM out of that population?
There's the city proper, and then there is the vast landmass surrounding it that no one is familiar with outside of what they might have picked up by watching the Blues Brothers or Wayne's World movies (Aurora, Joliet). So, lots of people who live in north eastern Illinois just say "Chicago," even if the city is an hour or more away.

Basically, imagine if everyone who lived in New Jersey said they lived in NYC.

[Chained Birds]

Zen Archery. What is this Dex you speak of?

That +1 I put to my AC when I'm wearing my Full Plate.

[Aemoh87]

That +1 I put to my AC when I'm wearing my Full Plate.

Yeah dex is just a huge dump stat. It just lacks offensive, defensive, and skill applications. Also it only effects 1 save and 1 secondary stat (initiative). It might as well be wisdom.

[sirpercival]

Yeah dex is just a huge dump stat. It just lacks offensive, defensive, and skill applications. Also it only effects 1 save and 1 secondary stat (initiative). It might as well be wisdom.

My Illumian Dex-based Cleric is very offended by this post. No I don't have one of those for real.

[Tokuhara]

Your DM is a tool. There. It has been said. He has no reason to DM. Ever. Period. If you need a group, I live a little less than an hour from East Chicago. We need players...

As for the character, I suggest Raptoran Sha'ir 6/Skypledged 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 4. For more info, look on the Raptoran Fan Flock thread.

[Aemoh87]

My Illumian Dex-based Cleric is very offended by this post. No I don't have one of those for real.

He shouldn't be. Dex is hands down the best stat. Not the best stat for every character, but the best stat in general. Just count up where it pops up on your character sheet!

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Your DM is a tool. There. It has been said. He has no reason to DM. Ever. Period. If you need a group, I live a little less than an hour from East Chicago. We need players...

As for the character, I suggest Raptoran Sha'ir 6/Skypledged 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 4. For more info, look on the Raptoran Fan Flock thread.Well, we might be going too far. One can hope that either some compromise comes from this or this incites a player revolt. Many a bad DM are fine players. Power corrupts and all.

[Metahuman1]

Watch out for Sunder Tards that attack ONLY the cleric if you do this. Take precautions as needed. Also watch out for Targeted Super Juiced up Disspell magics and Greater Disspell Magics, and Anti Magic Fields. And Mordikitens Disjunction. And Spear of Annihilation. And Rod of Cancellation. And Targeted Disintegrates on your gear.

You want to have sufficient defense to FORCE him to be OBVIOUS about trying to Nerf you specifically for no freaking reason other then to do it because HE doesn't like the way YOU are playing YOUR character.


And then, yeah, look into your local gaming stores and find another group. Maybe learn Pathfinder to expand what you can play.

[Randomguy]

While you're at it, go ahead and try and abuse wondrous item creation rules: Remember, a magic item that can cast a spell at will, or provide the affect continuously, is as good as persisting the spell yourself.

[Randomguy]

While you're at it, go ahead and try and abuse wondrous item creation rules: Remember, a magic item that can cast a spell at will, or provide the affect continuously, is as good as persisting the spell yourself. An item that lets you cast cure minor wounds at will can essentially full heal the whole party between every fight, but it takes a while.

[Metahuman1]

The OP doesn't WANT to heal at ALL except to keep himself alive.

Because the DM is trying to force his view on the OP. The DM's view is that all clerics are allowed or intended to do is be heal bots.

Thus, the less Healing the OP has to do, the better. Doubly so if the healing is being used on anyone but his own character.

[Mockingbird]

Make a character with the most ridiculous saves ever. I'd take Hexblade 3, rogue or shadowdancer 2, antipaladin 2, barbarian levels, fighter levels, monk levels (assuming you're doing pathfinder), those feats that increase saves, constitution, dexterity and wisdom as highest stats..
If failing your saves is nearly impossible, then dying is harder. If you have levels in a casting class and a high dexterity, you can use mage hand and have a really high AC.

[Antonok]

Monk 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Cleric 5/Sacred Fist 10

1d10 unarmed damage by lvl 5, a rage type ability, combined with the usual DMM Persist tricks.

Monk by itself sucks, but I garuntee this combo will have any DM pulling his hair out.

Edit: Bonus points if you make it a Whisper Gnome. :smallsmile:

[Tokuhara]

Well, we might be going too far. One can hope that either some compromise comes from this or this incites a player revolt. Many a bad DM are fine players. Power corrupts and all.

Hence why I stuck with a powercaster build. Outlast the party due to casting Cleric Spells

[Hiro Protagonest]

Monk 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Cleric 5/Sacred Fist 10

1d10 unarmed damage by lvl 5, a rage type ability, combined with the usual DMM Persist tricks.

Monk by itself sucks, but I garuntee this combo will have any DM pulling his hair out.

Edit: Bonus points if you make it a Whisper Gnome. :smallsmile:

Or just monk 2/cleric X/sacred fist 10/cleric +y (if levels are still left). I don't actually know the prereqs for Sacred Fist since I don't have the book.

[Antonok]

Or just monk 2/cleric X/sacred fist 10/cleric +y (if levels are still left). I don't actually know the prereqs for Sacred Fist since I don't have the book.

The lvls of FotF are more then worth it. Its just about the only class in complete champion worth it. The only downside is the entry reqs are rather steep. Still can be pulled off by a lvl 2 human monk tho.

[Diefje]

Don't do it. Take the high road, point out the Rule of Fun. In the end it's not about what he thinks is effective or not, but about you getting your characters killed when you want to try something out. And that's not fun. So talk to him about it. Or leave. But don't go pissing in his cereal. Breaking the campaign isn't fun for him, having your new supercleric get killed anyway isn't fun for you.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Don't do it. Take the high road, point out the Rule of Fun. In the end it's not about what he thinks is effective or not, but about you getting your characters killed when you want to try something out. And that's not fun. So talk to him about it. Or leave. But don't go pissing in his cereal. Breaking the campaign isn't fun for him, having your new supercleric get killed anyway isn't fun for you.I think the idea is if his cleric gets fiat-killed it might incite player rebellion and motivate someone else to take the DM seat. That might very well improve his fun in the long run. It's quite a gamble any way you look at it, though.

[Chained Birds]

The OP doesn't WANT to heal at ALL except to keep himself alive.

Because the DM is trying to force his view on the OP. The DM's view is that all clerics are allowed or intended to do is be heal bots.

Thus, the less Healing the OP has to do, the better. Doubly so if the healing is being used on anyone but his own character.

I still suggest going either Neutral (rebuke + Inflict spells) or Evil and take that Tombtainted Soul Feat (Yeh! I remembered). Rebuking a swarm of Shadows is pretty fun when you've just got that 1 or 2 Rebukes left over. Do a Knowledge (religion) check to learn where Shadows might gather.
Ghostly Visages are also cool.

[Wings of Peace]

To get the most mileage out of divine metamagic, do the following:
At level 1, use the alternate turning feature in CD to do damage with your turns instead of the current mechanic. At level 6 or 10 or whatever, when you qualify for Sacred Exorcist, take a level of that.

Congratulations, you've doubled your turns/day.

You'll also want domains Planning & Undeath (if you can justify having the undeath domain on a good cleric).

If he has Expedition to Castle Ravenloft he could also use Lightbringer. A Death Delver dip could also be profitable if he doesn't mind losing a caster level for even more turning attempts. Finally, there's a Faerunian feat from Power of Faerun called Heretic of the Faith that will let you swap out a granted domain for a different domain of any variety and it loosens the alignment restrictions on the Cleric too.

Unless the OP wants to take levels in Dweomerkeeper I would also recommend entering Hathran unless he doesn't want to play a female character. Hathran + Extra Spell + Acorn of Far Travel would be an immense boon.

Edit: The CD variant isn't an acf, it's a system variant. So I don't think it would stack with the Sacred Exorcist feature.

[Arbane]

I think the idea is if his cleric gets fiat-killed it might incite player rebellion and motivate someone else to take the DM seat. That might very well improve his fun in the long run. It's quite a gamble any way you look at it, though.

OP: Trying to DM yourself might be less of a pain.

[CIDE]

[i]"Monks are weak- he's right about that. Archers aren't great but there are a few tricks you can do.
Monks are weak- he's right about that. Archers aren't great but there are a few tricks you can do.

He's completely wrong about cleric. Assuming you have enough levels and access to Complete Divine, you can get some serious power out of clerics. As your feats, take Extend Spell, Persist Spell and Divine Metamagic (persist). Any other feats go towards extra turning- you need 7 (and ideally more) turn attempts per day.


I still disagree about the monk being weak. It can be optimized and kick major ass. Then again most things I'm looking at include Dragon Magazine...

And in my most recent campaign the archer of the group in a level 7 campaign fired three arrows each doing 15 foot splash damage with 100-150 damage for each blast area. 48 orcs one shotted. No, archers are not weak.


Sorry, sorry. I forgot to list levels. He allows all the complete books, except psionic, and core. Level 13. Average money for that level.

I never understood why everyone has a thing against psionics...


Ruin the way he wants you to play. Can only use core books cuz other books are op? PLAY A DRUID AND WRECK IT!

The DM probably things the Druid (as he should) is god's gift to D&D,


Killing a PC off in a "cinematic" is cheap and mean. It's also only barely hanging on in my mind because of rule zero. The thing is that rule zero isn't license to be a jerk. It's akin to killing off a plot-central character in a video game that can take a hail of bullets in regular gameplay, but goes down in a cutscene like they have a glass jaw.

Your DM's universe is suffering from continuity issues if he's killing you off in cutscenes.


Also shows a distinct lack of creativity if he can't beat you in a legit way.


Yeah, I did try talking with him. He told me that I was trying to make characters do things they weren't designed to do and that I was basically playing the game wrong. (Paraphrase)


This is complete and utter bull****. If a Cleric weren't meant to fight why would they be allowed all the weapons and FULL PLATE? Hell, My cleric in a current game is the single strongest character in the party next to a Psion, Palladin, and Rogue. I'm just a step below the Astral Deva.

You need to ditch this ass.


A Vow of Poverty army would be dirt cheap.


Especially once they got sustenance. You don't need to feed them, clothe them (as they ignore the elements), and you aren't even allowed to arm them with the more expensive weapons.


I would agree with you, but I did precisely this a year ago, and then realized that he was the ONLY DM in the Area. Granted, I earned my spot back in the group, but I hate the words (core only) that tend to leave his mouth

How many players are there...? And none are willing to DM? What we do with my group is alternate. Every week is someone else's game. So the guy that DMed the first sunday DMs again the same sunday next month. All the other weeks are a different game.

[Tokuhara]

How many players are there...? And none are willing to DM? What we do with my group is alternate. Every week is someone else's game. So the guy that DMed the first sunday DMs again the same sunday next month. All the other weeks are a different game.

There were 4 of us, plus him. And we did that because 2 of them cannot DM (prefer to be a player), I've done it once (Caused 3 TPKs in a row), and the last player is generally our DM (far more lenient), but wanted some time off.

[Metahuman1]

Hence why I advised making sure he has another group to go to first, thus meaning that at worst, he forces the DM to show is BS colors to everyone publicly and made him hopefully very frustrated and if the players don't revolt as a result, he can just leave after the fiat kill and never play with that DM again, but still be able to play.

And he's tried talking to the DM like an adult. The DM is being a child, and it's high time his group was shown this.

[Snowbluff]

[i]"

I never understood why everyone has a thing against psionics...



The DM probably things the Druid (as he should) is god's gift to D&D,




Also shows a distinct lack of creativity if he can't beat you in a legit way.



You need to ditch this ass.



Psionics always rubbed me the wrong way, much how people who think monk is good.

Too bad about him like druid. That class, like many other T1s, is a monstrosity. Good time to ditch at that point.

[CIDE]

Psionics always rubbed me the wrong way, much how people who think monk is good.


Monks CAN be good. Not as a single class but dipping. And uh...doesn't really answer the psionic question.

[Tokuhara]

Psionics, as a general rule, is Idiot Proof. If you understand a Mana System in a video game, you understand the Basis of Psionics. You have X powers, you have Y Power Points. The powers cost Q, and the add-ons cost Z. Essentially, it's a "go have fun" system. You aren't constrained by spells/day and the limitations of core metamagic.

[CIDE]

Psionics, as a general rule, is Idiot Proof. If you understand a Mana System in a video game, you understand the Basis of Psionics. You have X powers, you have Y Power Points. The powers cost Q, and the add-ons cost Z. Essentially, it's a "go have fun" system. You aren't constrained by spells/day and the limitations of core metamagic.

I still don't see that as a reason to get rid of it. If a DM can't figure out a way to deal with a character throwing psi powers around all day then they need to get a little bit more imaginative.

[Tokuhara]

I still don't see that as a reason to get rid of it. If a DM can't figure out a way to deal with a character throwing psi powers around all day then they need to get a little bit more imaginative.

I'm saying that because it is simple is a reason to NOT ban it. Seriously? When WotC makes an alternate system for magic BASED on Psionics, It Has To Be Simple

[Hiro Protagonest]

Monks CAN be good. Not as a single class but dipping.

When people try to optimize the monk class, they generally don't mean a two level dip.

However, in this case, it works, because monk was an example. What the OP said was his DM thinks anyone fighting unarmed is weak.

[Tokuhara]

When people try to optimize the monk class, they generally don't mean a two level dip.

However, in this case, it works, because monk was an example. What the OP said was his DM thinks anyone fighting unarmed is weak.

Introduce the DM to City Brawler Barbarian

[Dazed&Confused]

And in my most recent campaign the archer of the group in a level 7 campaign fired three arrows each doing 15 foot splash damage with 100-150 damage for each blast area. 48 orcs one shotted. No, archers are not weak.

Satisfy my curiosity and tell me how he did it. I've never built an archer.

[Venger]

monk 5 (PHB)/ reaping mauler 1/pyrokineticist 2 (XPH)/ reaping mauler 5(CWAR)/ xx8

be human and take jotunbrud at 1st lvl, which makes you count as large when counted for grappling.

pick clever wrestling (for mauler) as your 1st lvl feat

monks get improved unarmed strike so are treated as armed and unarmed damage scales with level.

reaping mauler gives improved grapple free at lvl 1

pryo 2gives hands afire, which does exactly what it sounds like, 2d6 fire onto unarmed damage.

when you grapple and maintain the grapple, you automatically deal your normal unarmed damage at the beginning of the round.

it doesn't take a mathematical genius to tell you that your modifier to grapple will be absolutely huge in no time at all, especially if you can get the party caster to use enlarge person beef you up to being large (thus giving you the grapple bonuses for being Huge from jotunbrud)

combat will go:

1: enlarge person
2: grapple enemy
3: crush and burn them with hands afire+unarmed damage for awesomeness

who's underpowered now?

option 2, if PHB2 is allowed (if not, disregard)

roll beguiler. go beguiler with versatile spellcaster, allowing the casting of 3rd lvl arcane spells at lvl 4 by pooling 2 2nd lvl slots

beguiler 4/ rainbow servant 10/ xx6

beguiler casts off of int, is a spontanous caster, and has a spells available list equal to its spells known list. it gets a pre fixee spell list like warmage and dread necromancer.

rainbow servant gives full casting (text trumps table) and its lvl 10 capstone is add the cleric list onto your list of spells known. you can now cast the entire cleric list spontaneously.

best part? you cannot convert prepared spell slots (since you don't prepare spells) to heal spells, so you can't be called upon to heal as "that's what clerics are for" although if you ever want/need to, you can give everyone a lesser vigour, the best heal spell.

afraid I can't help you with archer, they are sort of bad in this game due in large part to damage reduction and being very vulnerable to DM fiat since they, like fighters, rely very heavily on their equipment. not that they are impossible to optimise, they're just not really my style.

if you want to do something really different, roll a human with 1 or 2 flaws, take great fortitude, lightning reflexes, and iron will, and go into forsaker. you can start taking levels at level 2 as long as you can get these feats somehow. in exchange for never using magic items or buffs, you get spell resistance 10+class lvl, crazy DR (that works if you destroy 100gpx class lvl of magic items every day) an ability score boost of +1 every level, and full BA. it's from masters of the wild, which is somewhat obscure, but full of fun things.

good luck! I know just what you're going through, I do agree a bad game is better than no game, because you can complain about it on the internet, and that's at least part of the reason we play

[Gavinfoxx]

DO NOT TAKE VENGER'S ADVICE!!

That is *fantastically bad advice*, since he is ignoring the bugs in the Reaping Mauler class, and it is pretty much a weak combo too.

Remember, with Reaping Mauler, the second you become Large size, you lose access to all of your Reaping Mauler class features! PLUS, it is doing the *worst* thing for grappling -- when grappling, you want to be as armored as possible, since you are going to be immobile and generally denied your dex. Remember, most of reaping mauler's features have to do with getting OUT of grapples, not being more badass in them.. it just has one single SoS at the end, and that doesn't matter at all, when you could just get that by taking a spellcasting class...

[Wings of Peace]

Since you're probably only going to get one chance before the DM throws a book at you I'd optimize a Cleric out the wazoo. That way your point will be conveyed in an optimally dramatic fashion.

[Tokuhara]

Want to really Punish a DM?


Human Paladin 3/Knight 4/Apostle of Peace 4/Sentinel of Bharrai 9/Contemplative 1

An invincible and exalted wall.

[Gavinfoxx]

So, Tokuhara: Is that meant to be a strong build or just an annoying build for the DM?

[Slipperychicken]

Hence why I stuck with a powercaster build. Outlast the party due to casting Cleric Spells

Get healing belts (MiC), and a wand or two of lesser vigor, maybe a custom item if you're feeling crazy. When someone needs healing, toss a healing belt to them, and say "Here, knock yourself out. Servants of [my god] have bettter things to do than play nurse". Maybe say something about promoting self-sufficiency too. Make it clear that you aren't using your class abilities for healing at all, that a rogue could do the same healing as you. In addition to teaching a lesson, it shows that healing is a job best done by items.

[Venger]

DO NOT TAKE VENGER'S ADVICE!!

That is *fantastically bad advice*, since he is ignoring the bugs in the Reaping Mauler class, and it is pretty much a weak combo too.

Remember, with Reaping Mauler, the second you become Large size, you lose access to all of your Reaping Mauler class features! PLUS, it is doing the *worst* thing for grappling -- when grappling, you want to be as armored as possible, since you are going to be immobile and generally denied your dex. Remember, most of reaping mauler's features have to do with getting OUT of grapples, not being more badass in them.. it just has one single SoS at the end, and that doesn't matter at all, when you could just get that by taking a spellcasting class...

:frown:

your reaction is a little uncalled for. that made me cry.

it's okay to disagree with my proposed build, but there's no need for such harsh language.

the main point of this is boosting your unarmed damage that you deal in a grapple.

while you are technically correct in your note about the size, clever wrestling requiring small/medium to use and being a prereq for RM, that bizarre addendum about losing feats in CWar is observed about as frequently as the multiclassing xp penalty and encumbrance when it comes to temporary effects. it wasn't as though I was suggesting he get enlarge person permancied on himself. I agree that would be missing the point somewhat.

making yourself bigger also boosts your monk unarmed dmg (and thus your grapple dmg) which is one of the easiest and best ways to make them a little better. while this DM obviously is unreasonable and hates monks, I can't see a normal DM saying "you lose your class abilities for the next x minutes because you are too big" keeping backwards track of what everybody is capable of due to temporary conditions creates a lot of extra bookkeeping for DM and player alike and is frankly kind of stupid, which is probably why it didn't see print outside of CWar and CAdv.

do you make a fighter lose his feats while he is power attacking since his base attack goes down for the duration? no, of course not, that is not only ridiculous, but it takes away one of the few valid strategic options to help a low tier class keep up and prove himself in combat.

"sorry, no leap attack for you, PA makes it go down too low for you to qualify"

this makes no sense, which is why the "lose feats/prcs you don't qualify for even if it's temporary" rule is seldom observed.

grappling is difficult to optimise in this game, to say the least without playing monstrous and/or LA races. I was suggesting something likely to raise the least number of eyebrows.

I assume SoS was a typo since S and D are next to each other on the keyboard, but devastating grapple is a SoD. it kills you if you fail your save.

is this the fastest way to kill someone?

no, of course not

could a wizard do it better?

undoubtedly

which is more fun though, zapping a guy with disintegrate and dusting him or wrestling him to the ground while on fire and snapping his neck after your DM told you it couldn't be done?

obviously this is a matter of personal taste, but I went with monk because the intent of the OP was to make a point to his DM about either monks, clerics, or archers.

I don't really like archers very much because like an uttercold assault necromancer or a shock trooper, it dictates a lot of your build and leaves less room for customisation and I am not particularly skilled at archer builds.

OP doesn't need help optimising a cleric, because that kind of does itself. show up the game and don't fall asleep and you'll prove the DM wrong about clerics.

monk offers a lot of different options though because there's a bunch of different fronts that you can single out to improve. you can be a snapkicker or a battledancer, or a sacred fist, or a bunch of different things. I singled out grapple because I've used this character in a past game and it was a lot of fun. he even got to deal pretty decent damage with flurry of blows + hands afire.

you could just do anything while taking a spellcasting class. while you are not wrong, that advice doesn't really help OP much. what specifically did you have in mind? were you talking about a battle cleric? I don't have much experience with those, I'd love to see your ideas.

while beating up your DM with CoDzilla is a perfectly valid way to go, beating him up with a flaming wrestler will earn you a lot more bragging rights when you tell this story on the internet later about how you showed your DM what for. CoDzilla is old painless from "predator" and monk is arnold's ghetto spear with a bunch of gunpowder in a banana leaf tied to it. old painless is undoubtedly superiour, but the spear is undoubtedly dramatically superiour because it makes arnold the underdog, which is why he wins with it at the end, and though it's a lot more work, it's fun to play the underdog in D&D sometimes.

OP, what do you think?

[Hiro Protagonest]

:frown:

your reaction is a little uncalled for. that made me cry.

*snip*

He's right. You fail to qualify for Clever Wrestling, and by extension Reaping Mauler, as soon as that Enlarge Person is cast on you. Your unarmed damage also boosts by about one point. Wheeee.

This is also a one trick pony that doesn't deal half an enemy's hit points or more in damage each round or do crowd control.

Your build is tier 5. Tops.

The ways to make a good unarmed warrior are: monk X (where X is 2 or the minimum levels needed to qualify, whichever is higher)/Fist of the Forest, monk X/cleric Y/Fist of the Forest Z/Sacred Fist, monk X/cleric Y/Sacred Fist, monk X/wizard Y/Enlightened Fist with Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk, monk X/Psionic Fist 10/monk Y, monk X/psychic warrior with Tashalatora, or unarmed swordsage.

[Tokuhara]

So, Tokuhara: Is that meant to be a strong build or just an annoying build for the DM?

Both. The build is annoying since enemies have to make 2 separate saves to not get their attack nixed, you have 18 feats, and you have 9th level spells, along with decent SLAs

[Gavinfoxx]

Lessee...

Knight is Tier 5, Paladin is Tier 5, Apostle of Peace is Tier -1 without vow of poverty, or Tier -2 with vow of poverty, Sentinel of Bharrai is Tier +2, and Contemplative is Tier +1...

I... don't see a lot of power in that build. You could stand to not worry about saves so much, and instead focus on other things that negate attacks (like immediate action interrupts and such), and put it on a much better chassis? It could use lots of spellcasting to start with, as an example...

[Tokuhara]

Lessee...

Knight is Tier 5, Paladin is Tier 5, Apostle of Peace is Tier -1 without vow of poverty, or Tier -2 with vow of poverty, Sentinel of Bharrai is Tier +2, and Contemplative is Tier +1...

I... don't see a lot of power in that build. You could stand to not worry about saves so much, and instead focus on other things that negate attacks (like immediate action interrupts and such), and put it on a much better chassis? It could use lots of spellcasting to start with, as an example...

Test of Mettle. That's the real power. You Goad them into attacking, then they have to make the saves. Unarmed fighters are essentially removed from the fight

[Gavinfoxx]

But Goad and the Knight's Challenge are soooooo easy to overcome though; there really isn't any challenge to it. Huge swathes of creatures can completely ignore those abilities, full stop. Are you saying it is annoying to the DM because it has to roll several saving throws?? I think you are overestimating the use of these abilities, or the ability of these classes to withstand damage. How familiar are you with the Crusader?

[Tokuhara]

But Goad and the Knight's Challenge are soooooo easy to overcome though; there really isn't any challenge to it. Huge swathes of creatures can completely ignore those abilities, full stop. Are you saying it is annoying to the DM because it has to roll several saving throws?? I think you are overestimating the use of these abilities, or the ability of these classes to withstand damage. How familiar are you with the Crusader?

Played it. Not a fan. Nor am I a fan of Swordsage and Warblade. While yes, they work, I just do not like playing them, since they lack the fluff appropriate in any campaign I've played in. Fancy Kung-Fu doesn't fit with Shadow of the Colossus

[Gavinfoxx]

Uh... you do know that an Iron Heart Warblade is the closest approximation to historic European martial arts (well, German longsword fencing, at least, ) that D&D has come up with?

[Tokuhara]

Uh... you do know that an Iron Heart Warblade is the closest approximation to historic European martial arts (well, German longsword fencing, at least, ) that D&D has come up with?

It all looks like wuxia kung-fu to me. And besides, 99% of the time, we play Core Only (the primary DM is a Core-Only-Nazi)

[dgnslyr]

Longsword fencing? I thought fencing usually implied a rapier, or an epee?

That said, the Tome of Battle is a pretty awesome resource for any melee character, because it gives them options to do cool stuff without being too specialized. Give it a good read, because there's plenty of good stuff in there.

The swordsage is the most wuxia of the bunch, but warblade and crusader are about as mundane as the fighter and paladin, respectively. I'm not a fan of the fluff, but the crunch is absolutely delicious. The book works better if you work on the idea that maneuvers are something any martial character can learn with some practice, rather than some exclusive technique specific to a specific school of martial arts.

[Gavinfoxx]

Then you need to read more Fechtbuchs. What, you think Knights weren't fantastic martial artists? The Arts of Mars, hello? It's not kung fu, they have their own stuff that works fantastically well... and like I said, the best way to simulate the flow of a fight and the sorts of things that those sorts of martial artists do (well, other than a few outliers in Iron Heart. IHS, I'm looking at you), is as an Iron Heart Warblade. Look at some of the quotes in these centuries old books, and compare that to the flavor text and what is happening in the Iron Heart strikes...

Fencing in this context as in "The Art of Defense". I am referring to neither Classical Fencing nor Sport Fencing, which are probably what you are thinking of?

[Tokuhara]

Then you need to read more Fechtbuchs. What, you think Knights weren't fantastic martial artists? The Arts of Mars, hello? It's not kung fu, they have their own stuff that works fantastically well... and like I said, the best way to simulate the flow of a fight and the sorts of things that those sorts of martial artists do (well, other than a few outliers in Iron Heart. IHS, I'm looking at you), is as an Iron Heart Warblade. Look at some of the quotes in these centuries old books, and compare that to the flavor text and what is happening in the Iron Heart strikes...

Fencing in this context means "The Art of Defense".

I'm mostly following Person_Man's Saint Bertold Build

[Gavinfoxx]

And I'm saying that Tome of Battle is not automatically kung fu, nor supernatural, nor eastern, and works quite well for various different types of character archetypes and abilities, including the stalwart paladin (amongst others), and is actually the best source before going third party for finding tools for the task of simulating realism of Western martial arts, as a way of staying in the archetype of Western-influenced fantasy, and is actually a great set of tools for finding ways to simulate how fights tend to actually flow, as well.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Played it. Not a fan. Nor am I a fan of Swordsage and Warblade. While yes, they work, I just do not like playing them, since they lack the fluff appropriate in any campaign I've played in. Fancy Kung-Fu doesn't fit with Shadow of the Colossus

...Why? Losing your footwork and posture are what makes maneuvers expendable. Not some fancy Kung Fu fightin' thing. You could make a case for swordsages, but they're monk's replacement, and may I direct you towards the dirty tricks of Setting Sun, the discipline (concentration doesn't mean meditating for hours) of Diamond Mind, and the aggressiveness of Tiger Claw? Those aren't wuxia. You could make a case for Leaping Dragon Stance, but other than that? Nothing in any of the nine disciplines.

Also, I never, EVER use Sublime Way fluff for my character, regardless of whether the world includes it or not. My warblades are taught in academies or streets, not dojos. My swordsages are brawlers, and since I like Avatar: TLA, Desert Wind for some firebending. My crusaders are, well, I've never played one, but if I did, my crusaders are the ones who stand while others fall, and aren't zealots of some god, even if they worship one.

[Tokuhara]

...Why? Losing your footwork and posture are what makes maneuvers expendable. Not some fancy Kung Fu fightin' thing. You could make a case for swordsages, but they're monk's replacement, and may I direct you towards the dirty tricks of Setting Sun, the discipline (concentration doesn't mean meditating for hours) of Diamond Mind, and the aggressiveness of Tiger Claw? Those aren't wuxia. You could make a case for Leaping Dragon Stance, but other than that? Nothing in any of the nine disciplines.

Also, I never, EVER use Sublime Way fluff for my character, regardless of whether the world includes it or not. My warblades are taught in academies or streets, not dojos. My swordsages are brawlers, and since I like Avatar: TLA, Desert Wind for some firebending. My crusaders are, well, I've never played one, but if I did, my crusaders are the ones who stand while others fall, and aren't zealots of some god, even if they worship one.

I only played a Warbalde once (Nezumi "Ronin"), Swordsage twice (Both were Martial Artists), and a Crusader six separate times (pseudo-paladin each time, including a Ruby Knight Cheatdicator). To me, they all seem like wuxia rip-offs of Paladin, Fighter, and Monk. Besides, due to our primary DM, we rarely leave Core-Only. In core, I play Cleric, Druid, and Currently an Apostle of Peace Build, revolving around Paladin (for save bonuses, a nonlethal smite, and Lay on Hands) 3/Knight (Test of Mettle mostly)/Apostle of Peace 4, heading into Sentinel of Bharrai (all of the nice exalted goodies, plus nice SLAs and a pseudo-wildshape) 9 and Contemplative 1 (Domain, probably one of the "Cheated 3)