Monks suck.

[Snowbluff]

My friend thinks monks are broken in good way (as in they rock). Please comment on how lousy this class is/why are they tier 5. :smallannoyed:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You don't need a new thread for this, just use google to find an old one.

[MesiDoomstalker]

My friend thinks monks are broken in good way (as in they rock). Please comment on how lousy this class is/why are they tier 5. :smallannoyed:

Tons of useless or double edged sword abilities (I'm looking at you SR and becoming an Outsider)

Flurry of Misses, who ever thought that stacking attack penalties onto a medium BAB chasis was a good idea?

No niche. It does nothing special.

No synergy. So you can move 100 feet per round. At the end, you can punch somebody once. But the whole point of the class is to let loose a flurry of unarmed strikes and be mobile. Which you can't do by the rules. You either move and punch once or you sit still and lightly tap and just plain out miss.

Theres more.

[Basket Burner]

Flurry of Blows.

[Kaje]

It looks nice because you get a class feature at every level. Then you realize, hey, most of this stuff will never be used and the other stuff will never be used together.

[Arbane]

Medium BAB. For a class whose stated PURPOSE is "punching people in the face".

[Gnaeus]

Make a monk. (or have your friend do it). Make it either a grappler, or an unarmed striker, or a trip-fighter, or a combination.

Then make a fighter, use all his fighter feats, his better BaB and his lowered need for wisdom and dex to do everything the monk can do... with better chances of success, and better AC.

Then make a Warblade or an unarmed swordsage, who can do the same tricks better than the fighter.

Then make a druid, who can out grapple, out trip, or out fight the ToB guy.

[AmberVael]

Medium BAB. For a class whose stated PURPOSE is "punching people in the face".

There are a fair few 3/4 BAB classes that are intended to be in combat that are quite good at their job.

See: Swordsage, Psychic Warrior, Cleric, Totemist, just to name a few.

3/4 BAB is not a particular hindrance.

[Ravens_cry]

Yes, I am afraid they do. They don't even make any sense within the typical "Medieval-esque Western Fantasy" setting. Pathfinder added some fun archetypes that make them at least playable at middling optimization levels, added some ways to mitigate their MAD, but they still don't make much sense within a typical setting.
I want to play a half-orc or even orc Monk sometime. The contrast of an orcs bestial appearance and violent heritage with the calm composure and disciple of a monk intrigues me.

[Rubik]

Yes, I am afraid they do. They don't even make any sense within the typical "Medieval-esque Western Fantasy" setting. Pathfinder added some fun archetypes that make them at least playable at middling optimization levels, added some ways to mitigate their MAD, but they still don't make much sense within a typical setting.
I want to play a half-orc or even orc Monk sometime. The contrast of an orcs bestial appearance and violent heritage with the calm composure and disciple of a monk intrigues me.That's all fluff. You can do this as a barbarian if you really want to. Just say you're in a meditative trance when you 'rage'.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Why does it matter that your friend thinks monks are great? I used to play with a guy who thought monks were awesome; he had a DMPC (yeah) monk who basically broke every rule imaginable (namely flurry after a move action, but there were more egregious ones), and then I realized he was playing a very different game.

Basically, just have him play a monk by the RAW (except let him be proficient in unarmed strikes) next to a bog-standard power attacking barbarian with a two hander, and see how it works out for him.

[Rubik]

It IS possible to make a truly kickass monk, but you have to do it in unusual ways. Take lots of ACFs (I believe there are ones that allow you to use Invisibility and Blink at will), and go for a necklace of natural attacks from Savage Species and/or kensai and/or psionic weapon master and/or Item Familiar and/or Ancestral Relic (but only if you're warforged or have a masterwork body for a few hundred gp), and add things like ghost touch and throwing and distance and sizing and morphing, since your body counts as a manufactured weapon.

Basically, abuse what you've got, and you can be awesome.

[Big Fau]

There are a fair few 3/4 BAB classes that are intended to be in combat that are quite good at their job.

See: Swordsage, Psychic Warrior, Cleric, Totemist, just to name a few.

3/4 BAB is not a particular hindrance.

It is very annoying though, especially for the non-Cleric group (really, Cleric could have 1/2 BAB and still be very good in melee, even without Divine Power).

The developers have always overvalued BAB.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Slight correction, straight core monk sucks. A two level dip is delicious as long as you can use the alternate class features the designers gave you.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well, a class can be a good dip but still be bad as a whole. See the ACF-less fighter.

[Ravens_cry]

That's all fluff. You can do this as a barbarian if you really want to. Just say you're in a meditative trance when you 'rage'.
Some fluff and crunch mesh well. That, however, doesn't for me.

[Flickerdart]

It IS possible to make a truly kickass monk, but you have to do it in unusual ways. Take lots of ACFs (I believe there are ones that allow you to use Invisibility and Blink at will), and go for a necklace of natural attacks from Savage Species and/or kensai and/or psionic weapon master and/or Item Familiar and/or Ancestral Relic (but only if you're warforged or have a masterwork body for a few hundred gp), and add things like ghost touch and throwing and distance and sizing and morphing, since your body counts as a manufactured weapon.

Basically, abuse what you've got, and you can be awesome.
The problem is that at that level of optimization, nearly any other class is still better than you, and the bulk of your power is gained from multiclassing, optional rules and items.

[Tokuhara]

Here's the problem:

Monk is not good on its own. now, if you go Monk/Ur Priest/Sacred Fist or Monk/Psi-Warrior/Slayer (tashalatora), yes, THEN monk isn't a repeated testicular punch. However, on its own, monk is crap

[Rubik]

The problem is that at that level of optimization, nearly any other class is still better than you, and the bulk of your power is gained from multiclassing, optional rules and items.At that level of optimization, you can destroy a campaign world with a T3 or higher. If you want to go all-out on optimization in an actual game, might as well not obliterate the whole thing.

Whoever said you had to have 'equal optimization,' anyway?

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: I'm just going to lock this one before it becomes a lot of work. The OP doesn't really offer much as far as discussion, and this mostly seems like a flamewar waiting to happen.