[PF] Zen Archer Monk

[The Boz]

Is it just me, or does this archetype seem to be actually viable as far as ranged bow combat goes?
Pump Wisdom. Then Constitution. Ignore Dexterity. Have a 10 or 11 Strength.
Am I missing something really obvious here? How does he compare to other bow-wielders of PF?

[Fax Celestis]

Does it let you qualify for archery feats without meeting the Dex req, or subbing Wis for Dex?

[The Boz]

He gets to take the feats he doesn't qualify for as bonus Monk feats, since he ignores all prereqisites while getting those...
Other than that, no. :(

[Bhaakon]

Does it let you qualify for archery feats without meeting the Dex req, or subbing Wis for Dex?

Yes, sort of. The archery feats can be taken as monk bonus feats without meeting the requirements, but it takes longer to get them. But the flurry ability replaces rapid shot/manyshot anyway, so it's not so bad. The only important one you don't have access to is deadly aim, but that's only a 13 DEX prereq anyway.

The ability to swap out your unarmed strike damage dice for your arrows' normal base damage is also nice, since it's relatively hard to pump ranged damage. It also gives you other useful tricks and bonuses (point blank master at level 3, AoO with ranged weapons at level 9, free weapon focus and specialization)

As archer builds go, I quite like it, but it's pretty brutal in the first two levels before you get WIS to hit (and a monk's starting wealth is so low that you have to start with a short bow).

[Tokuhara]

Yes, sort of. The archery feats can be taken as monk bonus feats without meeting the requirements, but it takes longer to get them. But the flurry ability replaces rapid shot/manyshot anyway, so it's not so bad. The only important one you don't have access to is deadly aim, but that's only a 13 DEX prereq anyway.

The ability to swap out your unarmed strike damage dice for your arrows' normal base damage is also nice, since it's relatively hard to pump ranged damage. It also gives you other useful tricks and bonuses (point blank master at level 3, AoO with ranged weapons at level 9, free weapon focus and specialization)

As archer builds go, I quite like it, but it's pretty brutal in the first two levels before you get WIS to hit (and a monk's starting wealth is so low that you have to start with a short bow).

All of this said, a monk armed with a bow is both realistic (the Japanese had a martial art based on archery) and scary (Flurry of Arrows? Arrow rain)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) adds your Wis bonus to damage with your Mind Arrows, and it only takes one hand to fire one so you can TWF with them. Swordsage 2/ Soulknife 2/ Swordsage 1/ Soulbow is a far better choice, but Monk is useful if you go nonpsionic Thri-Kreen LA +1/ Monstrous Humanoid 2/ Monk 1/ Soulknife 2/ Soulbow, with Multiweapon Fighting for four mind arrows/round not even considering Rapid Shot. Vow of Poverty is actually slightly playable with either of those. Be sure to put the Lucky property on all of your Mind Arrows so you'll get to reroll the attack once on each one that initially misses. Don't forget about Woodland Archer.

[Blyte]

elf fighter/ranger is hard to beat as an archer, but he seems to be a nice alternative and less cliche..

try and score yourself a bow with gravity bow (swift) built in :smallwink:

[The Boz]

All of this said, a monk armed with a bow is both realistic (the Japanese had a martial art based on archery) and scary (Flurry of Arrows? Arrow rain)

That's the original reason why I became interested in it. It seems to be both fluffy AND effective.

[Tokuhara]

That's the original reason why I became interested in it. It seems to be both fluffy AND effective.

Right. All that needs to exist is a realistic bow damage

[The_Scourge]

You'll probably want to prioritize Strength over Con and get a Composite Bow when you can afford it.
Oddly enough, Dwarves make awesome Zen Archers, since with very little investment you can have str con and wis at reasonable to awesome levels.

A feat you definitely want to look at later on is Clustered Shots from Ultimate Combat. It pretty much eliminates the DR problem archers so often have.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat

[Tokuhara]

You'll probably want to prioritize Strength over Con and get a Composite Bow when you can afford it.
Oddly enough, Dwarves make awesome Zen Archers, since with very little investment you can have str con and wis at reasonable to awesome levels.

A feat you definitely want to look at later on is Clustered Shots from Ultimate Combat. It pretty much eliminates the DR problem archers so often have.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat

You sir, are a sick little monkey. Dwarf with a bow? How will he carry his ale into the thick of combat?

[The_Scourge]

You sir, are a sick little monkey. Dwarf with a bow? How will he carry his ale into the thick of combat?

An Ale Helmet, obviously.

[Tokuhara]

An Ale Helmet, obviously.

Maybe he should also carry a bottle of high-proof alcohol, cloth wrapped arrows (the cloth behind the arrowhead), and a torch and have FLAMING ARROWS without spending a lot of money. What would be funnier is if he also enchanted his bow with Frost. Flaming Frost Arrows... Lol

[grarrrg]

A feat you definitely want to look at later on is Clustered Shots from Ultimate Combat. It pretty much eliminates the DR problem archers so often have.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat

Going by RAW it is debatable if Clustered Shots can be used with a Flurry of Bows attack.
I'm not saying one way or the other, I'm just saying there is some confusion potential.


Maybe he should also carry a bottle of high-proof alcohol, cloth wrapped arrows (the cloth behind the arrowhead), and a torch and have FLAMING ARROWS without spending a lot of money. What would be funnier is if he also enchanted his bow with Frost. Flaming Frost Arrows... Lol

How dare you suggest a Dwarf carry alcohol with the purpose of using it to shoot flaming arrows!
The waste of it all!

[Tokuhara]

How dare you suggest a Dwarf carry alcohol with the purpose of using it to shoot flaming arrows!
The waste of it all!

It actually saves him the money of enchanting his bow with Flaming

[Psyren]

Soulbolt + Gifted Blade imo. Now there's an archer.

[Fax Celestis]

Soulbolt + Gifted Blade imo. Now there's an archer.

Gifted Soulbolt/Aegis/Metaforge ftw.

[The_Scourge]

Going by RAW it is debatable if Clustered Shots can be used with a Flurry of Bows attack.
I'm not saying one way or the other, I'm just saying there is some confusion potential.

There really isn't. Read Flurry.

Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.

And Clustered Shots

Benefit: When you use a full-attack action to make multiple ranged weapon attacks against the same opponent, total the damage from all hits before applying that opponent’s damage reduction.

[Ravens_cry]

You sir, are a sick little monkey. Dwarf with a bow? How will he carry his ale into the thick of combat?

I know of a very zen dwarf (http://guildedage.net/webcomic/chapter-1/chapter-1-page-1/)who uses a bow.
His name is Gravedust, and he is what Awesome wants to be when it grows up.

[nyarlathotep]

Get the guided enchantment on your bow an your build will become very SAD.

[Ravens_cry]

Get the guided enchantment on your bow an your build will become very SAD.

Or on any Amulet of Mighty Fists for any barehanded monk that isn't concentrating on non-attack roll manoeuvres. It is debatable if it can be added to ranged weapons though, the RAW gets weird.

[grarrrg]

There really isn't. Read Flurry.


And Clustered Shots

I personally would allow it, but I can still see a rules-Nazi DM ruling otherwise.
Because "Technically" the Monk is using the Full Attack action to make a Flurry.

[Psyren]

I personally would allow it, but I can still see a rules-Nazi DM ruling otherwise.
Because "Technically" the Monk is using the Full Attack action to make a Flurry.

You don't need a separate full-attack action to activate Clustered Shots though; it automatically triggers whenever you make a full-attack with a ranged weapon, which the Zen Archer's flurry explicitly is. Scourge's conclusion is therefore correct.

[Novawurmson]

Soulbolt + Gifted Blade imo. Now there's an archer.

Seriously. Marksman's not half bad, though.

[ericgrau]

Flame arrow is a 3rd level spell so you can save both your enchantment and your ale.

I played next to a zen archer and he did pretty well. Look into the wide variety of trick arrows out there, especially tripping arrows. Flurrying 3 trip attempts at low level when everyone has 1 attack is nuts.

[deuxhero]

A decent Monk build that doesn't involve that psionc feat, unarmed swordsage, or not being a monk?

Madness!

[Psyren]

A decent Monk build that doesn't involve that psionc feat, unarmed swordsage, or not being a monk?

Madness!

Welcome to Pathfinder.

[grarrrg]

Madness!THIS IS PATHFINDER!

Fixed that for you.

[Novawurmson]

THIS. IS. PATH-FIN-DER! ::Punishing Kick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/hungry-ghost-monk)::

Fixed that fix for you.