Epic battle ideas

[Iuliano05]

I am running a game for 20th level characters. I am going to make all the characters for this battle, lets assume 6-8 min/maxed characters with a castle against some form of epic battle. I need ideas for a set of characters that work well together and are awesome on there own accord, and what to put up against them. I really want to go all out but the standard tarasque with a 20th level wizard on top seems kinda well to op. If you guys have any ideas it is most welcome. All books allowed since i will be going off of PDF's just to make it more fun, and no pun-pun cheese. This game is going to be designed as a fight to be remembered, so make both sides equal if at all possible.

[Aegis013]

It's only too OP based on the wizard. Standard Tarrasque should only be a nuisance for 6-8 min/maxed 20th level characters. And it will take a lot of cheesy optimization to make that wizard a credible threat assuming the group has casters.

[Midnight_v]

You have a lot of options here...
I'd like to humbly suggest using Monsters out of the books.
A couple waves of unique balors and thier legions, would do it.
A unique balor is literally allowed to look like anything, so you can totally have a "Broken Demon King Leopold" or whatever show up, he's still a balor forces of CHAOS & EVIL just vary like that, but he totally looks like an angel with a lions head, insectoid eyes, and molten kracked skin.
Most of what makes an epic battle is in the description.

Tactically, a demon horde shows up and uses a huge array of spell like abilities and you can increase the number and vary each grouping till "Leopold" or whoever shows up, to cast Summon Tanari (more balors) 1 of which spamming blasphemy, the other debating the finer points of life on the prime material plane (its like cancun!)

Another approach is to have the leader of the demon horde be something like an advanced Half-fiend Trumpet Archon which I guess would make him "Fallen Angel King" etc. . .

Ultimately though, you get waves of:
2 Nalfanshee's (smiting stun) and some vrocks (who cast mirror image and try to dance of ruin over and over again)

1 Marilith, 2 Glabrezu, 2 Hezrou. Glabrezu 1: cast reverse gravity, Marilith: Cast Blade Barrier under the party. Glabrezu 3, Casts reverse gravity (forcing the party into the blade barrier below. The Hezrous: Move within 10 feet of the Blender(Party) which would trigger 2 dc 24 saves vs the stench or be nauseated. One of them casts unholy blight, the other attempts to summon another Hezrou (and another fort save)

The point of all this is to:
1. Match the action economy of the party.
2. Make the party deal with a strong and varied amount of threats.

Hmm.. I just thought, a Giant monster thrown in there might make it interesting too not big T but a 2 Colossal elder eidolons, will be rather interesting.

[Iuliano05]

I Like the idea's keep them coming! Demon horde is cool sounding what else does the playground have?

[Dr.Epic]

Battle on an erupting volcano. Just don't make it too much more like Revenge of the Sith.

[herrhauptmann]

Maybe the party against the emerald legion?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587

If there's a paladin, or paladin like character, he could have an epic duel his opposite/rival. Though if they're both leap attack/shocktroopers, it'll be a short fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDGuG9zhnaM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QENsSlzyrcQ

Personally I think the heroes attacking a castle with a time limit (epic wizard sacrificing someone dear to them perhaps) is more exciting than just defending a castle. Even against an army.

Additionally, with that time limit, as they invade and get confronted with serious threats, different party members say "You go on ahead! I'll catch up"
The wizard against a Balor. The Cleric against some undead monster (maybe advanced nightwalker).
Perhaps one of hte enemies is a rogue/assassin type, in a noisy cluttered room. The paladin would probably die against the hit and run tactics. But the party rogue would save the paladin, then enter into a game of cat+mouse with the assassin.

I know, it's cliche, but it feels epic to me. A lot more epic than standard actions of a high level God/Batman wizard. Timestop: Buff, Buff, debuff enemy. Belt of battle: Kill enemy. Or whatever they use.

[Herabec]

Have the group fight a God of Death and his near limitless hordes of undead as they assault the group's castle. Liches, Vampires, Famine Spirits, Nightwalkers. Avatar(s) of the Death God.

Makes for a stressful encounter for even min/maxed characters when they realize that, even as strong as they are, they will eventually run out of resources against an enemy who's numbers can seem limitless, even if they're not.

Most fodder will likely be zombies, skeletons, ghouls and ghasts, with powerful enemies like Nightshades and Famine Spirits spread throughout the army and Liches for Arcane support and Dread Necromancers for divine power. A souped up Avatar of Death could act as a 'boss' enemy, just as long as he has a Keen Vorpal Scythe +5. :P

[DoctorGlock]

Remember, at these levels a traditional boss fight is sort of boring unless it is extraordinarily memorable. You need to combine more than just a fight with some good scenery, the time limit is also good, you need a sense of urgency. Why do they need to fight their way through a horde of death cultists and fallen? Is the leader about to complete an apocalypse from the sky?

Is this a final battle to an existing game or the start of an epic game? If the former, go for all out world ending. A demiplane is crumbling and at the center lies the forge of souls, if it is destroyed then no new lives will be born into the multiverse. Eblis, lord of burning hate has led the forces of the nine hells against the forge to ensure the final dissolution of the universe as the ultimate act of spite in the eyes of whoever your creators are. Your players have to cut their way through the horde until they reach the BBEG himself before he can complete his doom ritual.

If its part of a full length game, you need encounters that are not simple combat or monsters that do not exist in the normal sense to fight, then the fun is finding ways to stop them. From another thread on epic encounters...

"it that walks behind the shadows" (i need a better name)
ITWBTS exists in the details. Whenever a pattern catches the eye or you see a shape in the clouds, there is ITWBS. Anywhere there are details, it manifests. The weave of the mages robe, the pits on the metal of the fighter's sword, the lumps in a bowl of potatoes. But it is not the random details or the interpretation thereof. ITWBTS is melevolent and intelligent. When you see the shape of teeth bared in the details, it is coming, you look again, the image gone, searching and you see it again... but now it is closer. It has your scent and it is coming for you... you run, throwing down whatever so saw it in, fleeing far... you stop to rest by a stream... and in the pattern of the rocks you see it, even closer, malice in its eyes...

Finding a way to escape this thing is probably alot more fun and requires more creative solutions than "drop the sun on it"

Also you need a plausible reason the players cannot open with full force, otherwise they literally can drop the sun on a target at these levels.

Also, if anyone has a vorpal scythe they must be able to cast "surge of fortune"

Fun enemy mook builds should includes things like Arcane Swordsage 2/Human Paragon 3/Ur-Priest 2/Ruby Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 3. Throw on the feathered wings graft and the otherworldly feat and you have your hordes of fallen or whatever.

[Runestar]

Keeping track of so many monsters at higher lvs is going to be a headache, especially when each of them is probably worthy of a solo fight in their own right.

I know MM5 has the wild hunt encounter, which involves a cr22 fey and his 4 cr18 hounds (a EL24 challenge). I suppose you could start with 2. As all 8 dogs use the same stats, this would simplify book-keeping a lot.

You want action economy, a beholder with lvs in beholder mage could work, as it can cast up to 10 spells each round (including epic spellcasting).

I also like the idea of a high lv martial adept specialising in white raven maneuvers. That would really help squeeze out extra actions from your "mooks". In fact, you can consider elder elemental warblade5s commanding armies of elementals, with perhaps a few monoliths. They should prove to be fairly resilient, and you don't have to bother keeping track of abilities like sr or resistances.

[Iuliano05]

The idea of the game is based on the fact we will be playing dec 20th 2012. So its really a joke on the whole end of the world idea that people think is going to happen. (no turning thread into a flame contest please) Since it could possibly be the end of the world, we figured we might as well play a DnD session where everyone is 20th level. The input is great. Maybe I will make them assault the castle since a time frame seems important, and it will prevent them from dropping the sun on everyone. I like the idea of each character has an arch rival that could potentially take out another character. I.e Hit and run assassin, vs pally, but rogue saves pally. Those seem memorable, I would have to find a way to make it important to separate each person. any ideas on that would be great. also Would a CR 13-15 monster be a good challenge for a single 20th level character if they got seperated?

[DoctorGlock]

also Would a CR 13-15 monster be a good challenge for a single 20th level character if they got seperated?

Generally not, but elemental weirds could pull it off, maybe a few adamantine horrors if you insist on throwing really low CR stuff around. (MMII)