Helping a new party. (Need some build assistance.)

[Metahuman1]

Ok, A few of my friends are gonna be starting and IRL game in the next couple of months. Right now getting scheduling and giving the gentleman who as Volunteered to DM for us time to put things together are the major hold ups.

As a more experienced player, I've been charged with helping with character construction.

Right now, there are four people who will actually be playing, plus a DM. We might end up down or up one person depending.

The two concepts I've gotten are one person wants a Warrior. Big, Strong, Tough. Think Conan or Red Sonya. Herculean feats of Strength, uses a big sword, does lots of damage, can take a beating.

The other Wants something sneaky, lots of tricks up there sleeve, and in combat wants to move in, hit there target in a way that is gonna hurt, and get back out before they take a hit themselves, rinse repeat. Would prefer to be able to take opponents out in one shot, particularly when dealing with things that aren't boss monsters.

Both would appreciate greatly if this could be done with out totally tanking Int and Wis, and could be done while still leaving them a spiffy Cha score for RP. Cause statistical benefits none-withstanding, having a high Cha is fun.

System is 3.5 D&D as that is what Both me and the DM have most experience and knowledge of.

So, Playground, help me build these two up so that there gonna be Good at playing what they want to play.

For the First person, Barbarian with a bit of Warblade caught my eye. Maybe with Frenzyed Breserker and a Jacked up Will save + some Luck Rerolls, and Perhaps some Con to AC tricks. I had already talked to the DM, and a slightly refluffed Orc could be arraigned for her base race along with a template or two.


For the other one, I was thinking off the top of my head, Factotum/Swordsage with Able learner and a dip into Shadow Dancer. Focus on Int SADing or Int + Dex for low Mad, and dip Shadow Dancer for Hide in Plain Sight. Use Iaijutsu Focus + Shadow Hand for offense. But he wants to play something not human. I seem to recall there was something similar to Able Learner for elves somewhere.

The other player doesn't know what he wants to do at all yet. And I'm just planning on trying to cover whatever niches aren't being covered by the rest of the group.

So, Playgrounders, am I on the right tracks here, is there something I'm missing? Help, thoughts, and Input are appreciated!

[Flickerdart]

For the second guy, Travel Devotion is probably the easiest way to accomplish what he wants. Otherwise, a shadowpouncer build would be almost exactly what he's looking for (since you can make, by some readings, three full attacks per round with them). For the tough guy, a Crusader is incredibly difficult to kill.

[Anderlith]

A barbarian & a scout. Roll the dice, pick up Power Attack/ Cleave for the barb, & Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack for the Scout. I recommend starting at level one, so the new guys can start small & know what they are dealing with. Level two at the most

[sonofzeal]

Do NOT make the mistake of overloading newbies with tones of complexity. And by "tones" I mean "any". I've introduced literally dozens of new players to the game, and rare is the player who can handle anything more complicated than a Rogue or Barbarian their first session, without either messing something up badly, or getting something wrong.

If a pure-classed Rogue and Barbarian aren't sufficiently powerful, I'd simply jack up their numbers by an appropriate degree. Something like +2 to all stats, or doubled hp, or one out-of-depth free magic item (possibly Ring of Invisibility for the Rogue, and a Flaming Greatsword for the Barbarian, depending on their level).

Trust me - the basic mechanics of the game, moving around and using skills and making attack rolls, will be enough complexity to keep most people engaged their first session. "I full-attack again" may be boring for us pros, but is good practice for someone who's still learning which dice do what. The Barbarian will still have to keep track of his Rage, and the Rogue will keep track of his Sneak Attack, and that gives them something to play with if they're feeling more comfortable. But maneuvers and spells and grapples and disarms and skill tricks and whatnot are too much.

[Mooncrow]

I have to agree; factotum is a neat class, but it requires a lot of system knowledge to make it work. Not recommended for new players.

[sonofzeal]

I recommend starting at level one, so the new guys can start small & know what they are dealing with. Level two at the most
I agree with your first part, but in contrast with my previous post... this might be too little. I find lvl 3 is where everything starts settling down. There's an extra feat to set your character appart from others, spellcasters have enough spells to actually contribute properly, skillmonkeys have enough skill points to really make a big difference in success rates, and warrior-types have enough attack bonus to set themselves apart from non-warriors. Even lvl 2 doesn't differentiate well enough for me. And lvl 3 vs lvl 2 doesn't add much of any new complexity, if you're choosing feats and magic items for them. I wouldn't run something below lvl 3 unless I really had to.

[Anderlith]

I agree with your first part, but in contrast with my previous post... this might be too little. I find lvl 3 is where everything starts settling down. There's an extra feat to set your character appart from others, spellcasters have enough spells to actually contribute properly, skillmonkeys have enough skill points to really make a big difference in success rates, and warrior-types have enough attack bonus to set themselves apart from non-warriors. Even lvl 2 doesn't differentiate well enough for me. And lvl 3 vs lvl 2 doesn't add much of any new complexity, if you're choosing feats and magic items for them. I wouldn't run something below lvl 3 unless I really had to.

Acting in character should differentiate enough. Also this starts them with things like magic missile, burning hands, & shocking grasp, to, well get a grasp of how magic works.

[Metahuman1]

Actually the guy who want's to be the stealthy skillsish character has a bit of prior experience. He's played a couple of Pathfinder and 4th Edition sessions. (Enough that with out even really having played 3.5 he decided he did no care for 4th edition.) And he use to play 2nd Edition back in high school, but that was a noticeable number of years ago.

The other one however is a total new player. Hence the "Hulk SMASH" and hard to kill play style. Hard to kill means forgiving of mistakes and Hulk smash is fairly simple.

Edit: And so far, no one's wanted a mage, which is probably what I'll play. Which is ok cause I've been around the block before and I can build a competent caster and not break the game, and use that to teach by example on magic.

[sonofzeal]

Acting in character should differentiate enough. Also this starts them with things like magic missile, burning hands, & shocking grasp, to, well get a grasp of how magic works.
There's also the issue that super-low level is... well, swingy to say the least. Even the Barbarian can be dropped in a single hit by a normal enemy if he's unlucky. And I don't think 2nd level spells add all that much complexity over 1st level spells.

And not everyone is a mage. Skillmonkeys who can't succeed reliably at their best-trained skills, and warriors who can't reliably take or deal damage, just aren't that fun to play IMO.

[Metahuman1]

I'm with you. I want the skills guy to be able to pull off "That was cool/how did you do that!" Moments and Warriors to be able to go in there and be badasses.

[Anderlith]

There's also the issue that super-low level is... well, swingy to say the least. Even the Barbarian can be dropped in a single hit by a normal enemy if he's unlucky. And I don't think 2nd level spells add all that much complexity over 1st level spells.

And not everyone is a mage. Skillmonkeys who can't succeed reliably at their best-trained skills, and warriors who can't reliably take or deal damage, just aren't that fun to play IMO.

Well now I guess it is a matter of opinion as I find failure does not always lead to despair. I've played in many campaigns where failure adds more to the story than success.

[sonofzeal]

Well now I guess it is a matter of opinion as I find failure does not always lead to despair. I've played in many campaigns where failure adds more to the story than success.
Oh, I entirely agree that failure often adds more than success! Invincible ubermenchen are simply not fun, either for the game or storytelling. Deeply flawed and occasionally incompetent "heroes" are often better. But...

...if I'm going to play a Warrior, I expect him to be good at Warrior-ing. Sometimes he'll fail, and fail spectacularly, and that can add to the story. But by default, he should be able to be good if I want him to. It's entirely possible to make an incompetent lvl 3 warrior. But lower level character tend to be incompetent at everything, whether intended or not. That removes range of expression and character freedom, and that's bad.

[Metahuman1]

that was the general consensuses when I talked to them. I was told "I want to be big, strong, tough, and good at beating things down" and "I want to be slick, sneaky, full of surprise's, and good at killing things before they know I'm there."

Anyway, I've had a bit of time to kick it around in my head, and I have a couple of things I want to double check for the build for the rougeish character.

1: I seem to recall somewhere there's a Feat or a Racel sub level for elves that does the same basic thing as the Able learner feat. Does anyone know where/what that might be?

2: Having looked again at Shadow blade, a couple of questions came up. First, does Shadow blade + Weapons Finesse on a Finesseable weapon allow you to use Dex in place of Str for Trip attacks?

3: And how useful would spiked chain be if you did NOT take combat expertise + Improved trip?

4: And a final Major question: Does anyone know a way to get Hide in plain sight at the earliest possible level? Preferably with out having to waste three feats to Dip Shadow Dancer?

The answers will allow me to get a better fix on which feats to give him.

At this point, I'll probably have him use Rogue for the Chassis, + what ever dip I need for quickest possible gaining of HiPS, + a dip into swordsage for some Maneuvers, + 3 levels of Swashbuckler and the Daring outlaw feat. Might tack something else on depending.