exoskeletons and raising skeletons.

[kiryoku]

Is the creature having an exoskeleton ever explained anywhere?
Because this creature:

Siege Beetle CR 16
Always N Gargantuan vermin (extraplanar)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +0, Spot +0
Languages —
AC 33, touch 6, flat-footed 33
(–4 size, +27 natural)
hp 250 (20 HD); DR 15/piercing
Immune electricity, sonic, vermin immunities
Resist cold 10, fire 10
Fort +20, Ref +6, Will +6
Speed 40 ft. (8 squares); fly 50 ft. (clumsy)
Melee 2 claws +26 each (2d8+15) and
bite +24 (2d6+7 plus paralysis)
Space 30 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Base Atk +15; Grp +42
Atk Options improved grab
Special Actions blinding musk, surging trample
Abilities Str 40, Dex 10, Con 27, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 9
SA blinding musk, improved grab, paralysis, surging trample
SQ vermin traits
Feats —
Skills Listen +0, Spot +0
Advancement 21–26 HD (Gargantuan); 27–35 HD (Colossal)

Paralysis (Ex) A creature hit by a siege beetle’s bite attack
must succeed on a DC 28 Fortitude save or be paralyzed
for 1d6 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, a siege beetle must
hit an opponent of any size with a claw attack. It can
then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without
provoking attacks of opportunity.
If it wins the grapple check and maintains the hold
during the next round, it bites the grappled foe as a free
action.
Blinding Musk (Ex) As soon as it is reduced to half of its
full normal hit points or fewer, a siege beetle sprays
opponents with a 60-foot cone of blinding musk as an
immediate action. Those within the cone must succeed
on a DC 28 Fortitude save or be blinded for 1 minute. The
save DC is Constitution-based.
Surging Trample (Ex) A siege beetle can surge forward,
flattening and demolishing everything in its path.
Targets in the siege beetle’s path take 2d6+22 points
of damage, and they are also pushed in front of the
siege beetle to the extent of its movement. A creature
in the beetle’s path can choose to either make a DC 35
Reflex save to move out of the way, or attempt an attack
of opportunity, taking the effect of the trample if the
attack does not kill the siege beetle. The save DC is
Strength-based.

would be pretty fun to use. but exoskeletons are not addressed in the skeleton creation at all.

[Strormer]

lol, I so just posted a question about something just like this. :smallsmile: My DM let me summon a skeleton umber hulk, so I think anything that has something akin to a skeleton would work, but DM permission.

[kiryoku]

I know that :p but I was wondering if it was ever addressed in any book or by the creators of D&D?

[Lord Vukodlak]

First the animate dead spell says this.

A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.

Both the zombie and skeleton templates mention the creature must have a skeletal system. That being said even if you could animate a vermin as a "skeleton" or "zombie" They lose those special qualities and attacks.

[kiryoku]

an exoskeleton is a skeletal system on the outside. made of bone plates that fit together. what I meant to ask was would it keep the natural ac as it really didn't change. so even if it was a skeleton would it keep its natural ac like a zombie?

[faceroll]

Skeletons can only be animated from corpses with bones.

[kiryoku]

-facepalms.- then what is a exoskeleton then.....

[Lord Vukodlak]

-facepalms.- then what is a exoskeleton then.....



an exoskeleton is a skeletal system on the outside. made of bone plates that fit together. what I meant to ask was would it keep the natural ac as it really didn't change. so even if it was a skeleton would it keep its natural ac like a zombie?

No an exoskeleton is a system of chiten plates on the outside that support the creature. The technical definition of a bone excludes exoskeletons. Bones are for endoskeletons.

Now hypothetically speaking if a Beatle's exoskeleton could be animated it should probably use its old natural armor bonus. Though if the creature died from physical damage its exoskeleton might not be in any condition to be animated. When you slice and dice a Blue Slaad to death its skeleton can still be relatively intact. The same can not be said of giant vermin as the skeleton is hit first.

[Coidzor]

"Skeleton" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

So, I'd allow skeletons, but zombies are unassailable. I'd even allow animate dead to make vermin skeletons, but by RAW you'd need a different spell than animate dead for skeletons.

Kind of stupid, the difference, but there you go.

[Lord Vukodlak]

So, I'd allow skeletons, but zombies are unassailable.

The spell animate dead also says the corspe must have bones, and the template also says "Skeletons are the animated bones of the dead" And as I've already said, exoskeletons do not technically have bones.

There is actually more room to allow zombies, as neither the template or the spell mention the requirement of bones.

[kiryoku]

Its says mostly intact not completely though.

plus you could use mend or some other weak repair spell to fix it if that really was that big of an issue sense a dead body is treated as an object I think. Not sure if I am remembering something from another game or not.

or I could just make it a freaking half dragon and avoid this whole mess.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Its says mostly intact not completely though.

plus you could use mend or some other weak repair spell to fix it if that really was that big of an issue sense a dead body is treated as an object I think. Not sure if I am remembering something from another game or not.

or I could just make it a freaking half dragon and avoid this whole mess.

That wouldn't actually give it the qualifiations to be animated as a zombie/skeleton if it didn't have them before. If your the DM and want the party to fight an undead siege beatle then simply apply the template how you see fit. If the party asks how just say some unique magic or sponatious concentration of negative energy.

[kiryoku]

If I make it a half dragon I can just say it has both a skeleton and a exoskeleton. That and I could use the Draconomicons skeleton and zombie Template.

[Lord Vukodlak]

If I make it a half dragon I can just say it has both a skeleton and a exoskeleton. That and I could use the Draconomicons skeleton and zombie Template.

Err no, being a half-dragon wouldn't add an endoskeleton. No creature has both an endo and exoskeleton.

You only need to worry about explaining how you animate a corpse if your a PC trying to make a new servant. Normally a skeleton loses out on AC from the base creature while a zombie loses out on extra attacks inexchange for retaining some durability.

If I was to allow a PC to animate vermin with animate dead, I would treat it as a zombie. Most of its bulk is the exoskeleton so animating the corpse should create a lumbering creature rather then a nimble light creature of bones. But this is for balancing purposes

Sense your the DM simply add the skeleton template and have it retain its old natural armor bonus. Your not entitled to explain how the undead vermin exist. There are undead vermin already in D&D they just don't use the existing skeleton or zombie template.

If you have Libris Mortis try the revived fossil. You'll end up with something tougher then the regular skeleton template.

[kiryoku]

why not all dragons have one and it becomes a dragon. not to mention it removes the exoskeleton and replaces it with scales. among many other changes it would go through becoming a completely different fusion of two races. one being highly magical and unpredictable in what it will do with the joining of the two species.

Edit: hmmm I will go look that up give me a min.

Edit2: okay same problem.
CREATING A REVIVED FOSSIL
“Revived fossil” is an acquired template that can be added to any
corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal
system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A revived fossil has all the base creature’s statistics and special
abilities except as noted here.

Edit3: zombie would not work normally as its a 20HD vermin. so it would raise it to 40HD making it unraisable by the standard animate dead. now the half dragon template makes the Draconomicon zombie work and that can go as high as you want it to.

[Lord Vukodlak]

why not all dragons have one and it becomes a dragon. not to mention it removes the exoskeleton and replaces it with scales. among many other changes it would go through becoming a completely different fusion of two races. one being highly magical and unpredictable in what it will do with the joining of the two species.

Because its still mostly a vermin. Its overall shape, and form are that of a beattle. A half-dragon may have a dragon for a parent but physically its mostly the base creature.
All true dragons(which the template is based from) have four legs and a tail but a half-dragon human doesn't gain any extra limbs. (not even wings because there not large).



Edit2: okay same problem.
CREATING A REVIVED FOSSIL
“Revived fossil” is an acquired template that can be added to any
corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal
system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A revived fossil has all the base creature’s statistics and special
abilities except as noted here.


Ah its not the same problem, The skeleton template and the associated spell for making them animate dead. Specify the use of bones. Which excludes an exoskeleton. The term skeletal system does not actually exclude exoskeleton.
The Revived Fossil is a lot more plausable then the half-dragon vermin existing to begin with. As can you really see a dragon mating with a giant bug?



Edit3: zombie would not work normally as its a 20HD vermin. so it would raise it to 40HD making it unraisable by the standard animate dead. now the half dragon template makes the Draconomicon zombie work and that can go as high as you want it to.

A zombie with more then 20HD can not be created with animate dead, but that does not mean a zombie with more then 20HD is impossible it just require a higher level spell. Or it just happens randomly like a lot of undead.

[kiryoku]

you wouldn't happen to know of any online sources for necromancers so I could stop looking foolish on here would you?

[Lord Vukodlak]

you wouldn't happen to know of any online sources for necromancers so I could stop looking foolish on here would you?

Its not all that foolish I looked around and by appearances no one has brought up the idea of animating giant vermin before.

[Strormer]

lol, and that is exactly the question I was asking in my post. My entire thread has now been ninja'd. ^_^ lol
Incidentally, if you're really interested in necromancy there are a few resources out there, but most of it you have to pull together from across the interwebs and it can be a real pain. Tome of Necromancy and tome of undeath help, along with Libris Mortis, of course, and the Secret College of Necromancy. Also, some hides out in cleric resources. Eventually I want to build a fan-splat that covers only the creating side of necromancy that doesn't mostly rely on its own original base class (see SCoN for this problem). There's a lot out there and most of it you either have to buy or dig up via my favorite scrying tool (http://www.google.com). I'll see if I can find my links as most of what I use I've copied to my HD now. :smallsigh: The interwebs are a mighty source of information with a terrible filing system.

[faceroll]

Err no, being a half-dragon wouldn't add an endoskeleton. No creature has both an endo and exoskeleton.

I'm pretty sure we can find one in the world of D&D.

[NNescio]

Err no, being a half-dragon wouldn't add an endoskeleton. No creature has both an endo and exoskeleton.


http://ompldr.org/vYjNibA/turtle.jpg

[Knaight]

I'm pretty sure we can find one in the world of D&D.

I hope not. Details like "plausible anatomy" tend to be overlooked, but the level of ignorance you would need to even consider creating a creature with both an endoskeleton and exoskeleton is staggering.

[NNescio]

I hope not. Details like "plausible anatomy" tend to be overlooked, but the level of ignorance you would need to even consider creating a creature with both an endoskeleton and exoskeleton is staggering.

Tortoises and boxfishes.

(c.f. Smith and Hall 1993; Gilbert et al. 2007)

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm pretty sure we can find one in the world of D&D.

Tauric Human / Large Monstrous Scorpion

BAM!


EDIT: There's also some Ape-Spider demon or devil in one of the books, and don't forget the classic drider, if you prefer official monsters.

[Coidzor]

Ah its not the same problem, The skeleton template and the associated spell for making them animate dead. Specify the use of bones. Which excludes an exoskeleton.

And the part of the skeleton template that matters doesn't specify that it requires bones, just a skeletal system.

[Yuki Akuma]

And the part of the skeleton template that matters doesn't specify that it requires bones, just a skeletal system.

And the spell that is the only way to apply that template to anything says it has to have bones.

[Coidzor]

And the spell that is the only way to apply that template to anything says it has to have bones.

Yes, I already addressed that inconsistency. :smallwink:

[MesiDoomstalker]

http://ompldr.org/vYjNibA/turtle.jpg

ITS A TURTLE!:biggrin:

*ahem*

I mean, its a turtle. Point proven.

[Strormer]

I'm picturing a cackling necromancer behind and army of enlarged skeletal turtles.
The world is your zombie oyster. :smallbiggrin:

[silver spectre]

I'm picturing a cackling necromancer behind and army of enlarged skeletal turtles.
The world is your zombie oyster. :smallbiggrin:

A gargantuan Dire tortoise skeleton would make for a dandy little home away from home. Just bolt down the furniture, tell it where to go, and enjoy a nice leisurely ride.

[kiryoku]

Okay now a turtle that is something we should agree should not use the standard skeleton rules. It has a shell of bones so it really shouldn't lose its natural ac.

[Jolly]

A turtle's shell is not an exoskeleton iirc.

Also, you're the DM. Hand wave it.

Also also, the rules for necromancy are horridly written and generally contradictory or vague. This is because the designers assumed it would be something bad guys the party was trying to kill would do and therefore the DM would just kind of rule zero it. Or so I believe after reading the poorly implemented mismash of rules about the subject.

[kiryoku]

Yes the rules do seem to not cover all possible creatures just those with skeletons.

[nyarlathotep]

I hope not. Details like "plausible anatomy" tend to be overlooked, but the level of ignorance you would need to even consider creating a creature with both an endoskeleton and exoskeleton is staggering.

The ignorance you would need to consider creating a Huge size creature with just an exoskeleton is equally staggering. The endoskeleton that would have to be used for such large vermin would be more accurately considered a system of internal chitin supports for the outer skeleton, but I digress.

The spell by RAW basically just says no you can't, it has chitin not bones and thus you can no more animate it as a skeleton than you could a gelatinous cube.

That being said there is a template called husk vermin from Drow of the Underdark specifically made to be the reanimated exoskeleton of a vermin. On the bright side they are creatable and even get some nice feelies over skeletons (natural weapons being treated as magic, create spawn, energy drain) unfortunately the spell that creates them is create greater undead(no minimum CR). Fortunately as it is still mindless and thus receives no save verse your command undead spell to control it for days at a time.

[NNescio]

A turtle's shell is not an exoskeleton iirc.

1) It's a carapace.
2) It's on the exterior of the animal's body.
3) It's made out of bones.
4) It provides attachment points for muscles.
5) It provides support for the underlying musculature and organs.
6) It protects the animal's body.

Some sources disqualify the turtle's shell because it's a modified ribcage (but hey, it's an skeleton on the outside! AKA an exo-skeleton) or because that it doesn't completely cover the whole body (which would disqualify a lot of invertebrates). Both of these reasons are very shaky, and a lot of modern academic textbooks and papers (like this one (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jez.1103/abstract)) regard the turtle's shell as an exoskeleton.

[kiryoku]

this seems like an argument that we are not all going to agree on. one side firmly siding with the rules. the other firmly with logic that its an exemption to the rules. I think a turtle is different then most animals not really changing its source of armor when made a skeleton but still losing its natural armor seems stupid. -he shrugs.- Seems like they should have addressed this at least a little in one or two splat books but they didn't.

[Caesar]

As a DM, I would have no problem allowing my players to raise giant bugs with animate skeleton. I would just follow the rules, and adjust abilities and hitpoints accordingly. For fluff, it is the hollow shell of a giant beetle. "Its joints rasp and echo with a hollow sound as it shuffles up the tunnel towards you. Its compound eyes are translucent, and you can see the back of its empty skull thru them. But it is looking at you, regardless, and it is drawing nearer."

Playing semantics between 'bones' and 'endoskeleton' just sucks creativity and fun out of the game, and serves no reasonable purpose (unless you are trying to purposely limit the party necro by throwing only insects and gastropods at him, which also sucks).

As far as not being able to imagine a dragon mating with a giant bug... Serious? Of all the myriad of things they DO mate with in official literature, giant insects seem like one of the more reasonable interspecies exchanges. Either way, that is a pure flavor call and up to the DM and how he wants to define dragons in the campaign. Personally, I think its a cool idea. Fire breathing acid crapping half dragon giant bombardier beetle? Yes, please.

[Tvtyrant]

The ignorance you would need to consider creating a Huge size creature with just an exoskeleton is equally staggering. The endoskeleton that would have to be used for such large vermin would be more accurately considered a system of internal chitin supports for the outer skeleton, but I digress.

The spell by RAW basically just says no you can't, it has chitin not bones and thus you can no more animate it as a skeleton than you could a gelatinous cube.

That being said there is a template called husk vermin from Drow of the Underdark specifically made to be the reanimated exoskeleton of a vermin. On the bright side they are creatable and even get some nice feelies over skeletons (natural weapons being treated as magic, create spawn, energy drain) unfortunately the spell that creates them is create greater undead(no minimum CR). Fortunately as it is still mindless and thus receives no save verse your command undead spell to control it for days at a time.

Interestingly, there is no RAW definition of bone, nor is there any indication by RAW of which creatures have skeletons. So technically nothing but a skeleton could be made into a skeleton, because nothing except a skeleton has one. Or we can ditch the stupidity of RAW and go with Rules as Logic.

[Lord Vukodlak]

As a DM, I would have no problem allowing my players to raise giant bugs with animate skeleton. I would just follow the rules, and adjust abilities and hitpoints accordingly. For fluff, it is the hollow shell of a giant beetle. "Its joints rasp and echo with a hollow sound as it shuffles up the tunnel towards you. Its compound eyes are translucent, and you can see the back of its empty skull thru them. But it is looking at you, regardless, and it is drawing nearer."


The problem wih applying the skeleton template directly to a giant insect is the AC on the skeleton template is determined by it size. While a zombie's is based of the original creatures nature armor as it retains the flesh.

For an Exoskeleton creature its skeleton is what provides its armor class. So the animiated exoskeleton of a seige beatle should relatively the same natural armor bonus it had in life.

On an endoskeleton creature maybe 10-20% of its weight will be the bones. So the animated skeleton is lighter and more nimble then the zombie. For an exoskeleton creature its almost the opposite. More then half the weight is going to be its skeleton.

So animated vermin really need there own template.

[Coidzor]

^: I'd concur that'd be the best, most complete answer.

Isn't the turtle's shell an extension of the spine? Or is the spine just anchored to it?

[KillianHawkeye]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG89.jpg

You still haven't answered the question of creatures with true hybrid anatomies.

[kiryoku]

it has a skeleton as the drow half never lost it. O.o so what to do with the spider half.

[agentnone]

Man, my head hurts from reading all this. It's like I'm in junior high biology all over again. lol

On another note, when they made the game, I don't think they wanted to make things as complex as this. Skeleton is a skeleton. It's a part of the body that holds the structure together and protects the squishy bits. Endo-skeletons and exo-skeletons are both skeletons (just take away the prefix) in my book, no matter their specific classification (bone, chitin, carapace, etc...) or location on/in/around the body. I would say that it would work like a normal body for all sakes and purposes of the spell. Or at the very least, up to DM interpretation.

The whole new template thing is a good idea too and would remove a whole mess load of science-infused confusion and would keep players at the table becoming experts and ruining someone's creative fun. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to steal this idea and toss a gargantuan undead beatle swarm at my players next session. I thank you for facilitating their demise.

P.S.
I'd be very grateful to see said template so if anyone makes one, could ya post it here for the rest of us to use and abuse? Thanks in advance.