Evening out the "tiers" in Dark Heresy

[Void Born]

Hi all. We're thinking of running a Dark Heresy campaign soon. I'm a bit concerned about the high tier ranking of the psyker and to a lesser degree the tech priest. I'd like to focus the discussion on DH rather than ascension because that game seems to be more deeply broken than DH.

Let's put the argument of psykers being restricted by fluff aside for a moment and look at the combat and social encounter mechanics. It appears that the mechanic that the game designers had in mind to counteract the psykers overpowered abilities was the warp perils. An interesting design choice because rather than dumbing down psychic abilities to be on par with regular abilities to even the playing field (D&D 4th ed wizard treatment) they decided to allow them to be overpowered but also inherently dangerous to the party. An elegant choice in terms of staying true to 40K lore I think!

However it appears that two things are breaking the original design intent:
-Talents such as Favoured by the Warp which allow you to minimise perils
-Metagaming where we debate whether or not a peril of the warp effect has alerted the NPCs in the area to the presence of a psychic

Would you say that houseruling Favoured by the Warp out of the game and making it an iron rule that any peril of the warp roll will automatically make NPCs conscious of the psycher's presence would be enough to even the playing field and bring the psyker back down to "extremely powerful but a dangerous wild card"?

I don't know much about the tech priest what's the story there?

Also are there any Career Paths that are currently gimped and should be avoided or need a few house rule tweeks to get them up o speed? I've heard bad things about the Adept and Scum...

[king.com]

Hi all. We're thinking of running a Dark Heresy campaign soon. I'm a bit concerned about the high tier ranking of the psyker and to a lesser degree the tech priest. I'd like to focus the discussion on DH rather than ascension because that game seems to be more deeply broken than DH.


I disagree with the deeply brokeness of it, its silly, requires a very select method of play but it works though I would avoid it unless you have a plan in mind ::smalltongue:



Let's put the argument of psykers being restricted by fluff aside for a moment and look at the combat and social encounter mechanics. It appears that the mechanic that the game designers had in mind to counteract the psykers overpowered abilities was the warp perils. An interesting design choice because rather than dumbing down psychic abilities to be on par with regular abilities to even the playing field (D&D 4th ed wizard treatment) they decided to allow them to be overpowered but also inherently dangerous to the party. An elegant choice in terms of staying true to 40K lore I think!


I feel you missing the fluff aspect is missing one of the biggest balance factors of the game, just as money limits the scum from being top dog (seriously, he can become everything the shooty assasin can be AND can become the party's face but he must rely on his charisma because he can barely pay to feed/clothe and pay for bullets without getting some very lucky roles, though the Noble Scum breaks that of course).

EDIT: Also with the psyker, he only gets broken if you let him combine the wrong things. Make the characters roll for stats, its surprising how quickly this immediately strips away someones ability to break a character and it immediately sets about a character with strengths and flaws, shaping them into a person that may or may not have different career goals to their actual abilities.

Got one Psyker I played with great BS and strength, immediately set the backdrop for a person who may have been in the imperial guard or a mercenary thug, whose latent powers manifested much later in his life. He trained and prepared his body to build up into skilsl that aided his life and then this curse was bestowed upon him which made much of that insignificant.

Also one warning about the Radical's Handbook if you use it. That thing is powerful and is intentially so. Either force every player to take something from it or dont allow anyone to take from it (some rare exceptions like the penal legionnare), it helps to keep a party aligned and stops a mix of players from taking things more powerful than the others for almost no penality. If you allow it, know your playing a radical campaign and treat the characters who took from it like they all just picked up a Vendetta.




However it appears that two things are breaking the original design intent:
-Talents such as Favoured by the Warp which allow you to minimise perils
-Metagaming where we debate whether or not a peril of the warp effect has alerted the NPCs in the area to the presence of a psychic


Heres a tip with Perils of the Warp. GM roles the power manifestation dice behind the screen. You inform the play if there was a 9 or not and nothing more. You figure out the perils yourself and use the most appropriate one (if he has Favoured by the Warp) and make it activate at a random time (or chaotic you might say :smallwink:) so add spice to an encounter or simply throw off an event later on. You now have the paranoia the psyker has for ever using a power going up to 11 as soon as you trigger the first power. Anything could happen at any time and once the player triggers it, its beyond his control, and in the hands of the Dark Gods (i.e. the DM :smallbiggrin:).



Would you say that houseruling Favoured by the Warp out of the game and making it an iron rule that any peril of the warp roll will automatically make NPCs conscious of the psycher's presence would be enough to even the playing field and bring the psyker back down to "extremely powerful but a dangerous wild card"?


Nope, I would keep it (NPCs are aware of the psyker relative to the power or if you want a general scale, how far down the table you go). Do you then take Jaded out of the game so players dont need to worry about the insanity wildcard? Certain DH game styles run heavily on this mechanic.



I don't know much about the tech priest what's the story there?


Without dodge until level 5 (or thereabouts) he is super fragile. His lack of social graces and forced standing out in the crowd (not to mention that on his own he can never afford his augments) makes him a perfectly reasonable character that easily negates the usefulness of the Force Pull (WITH MAGNETS!) or hovering. Hes handy, can replace an Adept but nothing overwhelming.



Also are there any Career Paths that are currently gimped and should be avoided or need a few house rule tweeks to get them up o speed? I've heard bad things about the Adept and Scum...

Scum is (after the psyker) the best class in the game. He talks, sneaks and shoots. A Noble Scum is a force to be reckoned with (see aforementioned) yet for some reason nobody wants to play him. I guess the need to have a couple of good stats makes it somewhat unfavourable but ultimately its not any harder than most other classes and adds so much more utility.

Adept...yea I can see how you might say that, the adept is entirely based upon the DM and the type of game your running. If your running the usual DH where its very low power, Noir, stalking through a hive, investigating events etc...the adept can be extremely useful. All that knowledge can let you find clues otherwise not noticeable, can uncover connections, can establish complicated backgrounds for fake identities etc. If your playing a guns blazing, loads of money, high power game, the adept doesnt compete with the other players as research just slows everyone down and offers little straight up interrogation doesnt solve. For a great utility character you can make a Bonded Emissary and get him lots of talky skills and he turns into the Brains AND Face of the party.

Personally I think the weakest is the Guard class. Sure they get some nice expensive armour but they really are limited to...shooting and...hitting things and...thats about it. They cant really do that job any better than the assassin and the only positive they get is the use of heavy weapons (which is a big money sink and removes any chance of subtly).

Thats my take i guess.

[Misery Esquire]

Personally I think the weakest is the Guard class. Sure they get some nice expensive armour but they really are limited to...shooting and...hitting things and...thats about it. They cant really do that job any better than the assassin and the only positive they get is the use of heavy weapons (which is a big money sink and removes any chance of subtly).


I don't know, the Guardsman has a few passive considerations, if you picked the Uplifting Primer you can add a few more.

First off, the Guardsman is likely carrying the most, and shiniest weaponry, while the Assassin sits with his Longlas or sneaks with duel swords, the Guardsman is carrying a grenade launcher, a lasrifle, a shotgun, a sword, a laspistol, a few knives, and an assortment of grenades. This allows for the Professional Soldier/Walking Armoury type of intimidation, which may not work the best against the deeply entrenched heretics, but the blokes pushing gladstone with a few enforcers to back him is going to be terrified of this sullen, professional, soldier, pulled right out of the Emperor's own armies, carrying more ways to kill him than his entire gang has.

Secondly, he's a soldier, which offers a number of interesting encounters socially, which, while he won't be smooth-talking like a Scum, he'll be able to discuss the trade and make aqquaintences (I hate that word, I never spell it quite right) out of any poor dog-soldier, because he went through the same thing. Heck, if he keeps the old "company colours/number" people might even recognize a renowned branch. And/or retired Imperial Generals might be able to discuss any campaign with him that his company took part in, even before he joined if it's a heroic company, or the battles he fought in, if not, which the general will still have a chance of conversation on.

Thirdly, even the most investigative party needs a meatshield, and on the "mercenary" background, or a Guardsman who removed the unit markings, he's easier to fit inconspicously the background of a negotiation than the upright law-enforcing Arbite.

Fourth, well. You already covered Heavy Weapons. They aren't subtle, but if you ever need them...

Okay, overall, my point is ; including Fluff/RP considerations, there really isn't a weakest class. Unless you roll a psyker and get teamed up with Black Templars.

[king.com]

I don't know, the Guardsman has a few passive considerations, if you picked the Uplifting Primer you can add a few more.

First off, the Guardsman is likely carrying the most, and shiniest weaponry, while the Assassin sits with his Longlas or sneaks with duel swords, the Guardsman is carrying a grenade launcher, a lasrifle, a shotgun, a sword, a laspistol, a few knives, and an assortment of grenades. This allows for the Professional Soldier/Walking Armoury type of intimidation, which may not work the best against the deeply entrenched heretics, but the blokes pushing gladstone with a few enforcers to back him is going to be terrified of this sullen, professional, soldier, pulled right out of the Emperor's own armies, carrying more ways to kill him than his entire gang has.


The assassin, who make more money than the guardsman can do all of that and more.



Secondly, he's a soldier, which offers a number of interesting encounters socially, which, while he won't be smooth-talking like a Scum, he'll be able to discuss the trade and make aqquaintences (I hate that word, I never spell it quite right) out of any poor dog-soldier, because he went through the same thing. Heck, if he keeps the old "company colours/number" people might even recognize a renowned branch. And/or retired Imperial Generals might be able to discuss any campaign with him that his company took part in, even before he joined if it's a heroic company, or the battles he fought in, if not, which the general will still have a chance of conversation on.


Just like a Scum can interact with any underground group well, a Noble can interact with any upper class well, an assassin has his guild to work with, Arbite has well..the Arbitrators and likely the local Enforcers too. Every class has their faction they can interact with (except maybe the psyker depending on the background) and this is entirely up to the character itself. I dont think its right to say it has an advantage over other classes simply by doing something nearly identical to every other class.



Thirdly, even the most investigative party needs a meatshield, and on the "mercenary" background, or a Guardsman who removed the unit markings, he's easier to fit inconspicously the background of a negotiation than the upright law-enforcing Arbite.


So can an assassin (after a couple of paydays) or an Arbite who simply puts his badge away (again, class based). As I mentioned, the starting armour is nice but it very quickly gets outpaced.



Okay, overall, my point is ; including Fluff/RP considerations, there really isn't a weakest class.

There are weaker classes, there are not 'useless' classes as everyone can offer their own support into a party's skillset but some get and can do more than others, its not enough of a problem to require any changes but its something to be aware of.

[Void Born]

Interesting. I really like the idea of holding back on the perils roll. Very neat way to build suspense.

I still feel that removing Favoured by the Warp can only be a good thing.
The whole "balance" of the psyker is based on having him be powerful but unstable I don't see how adding stability to his abilities is going to do anything but hamper that basic design principle. It seems like it was included as type of maths fix for higher levels but the fix really isn't necessary.

[king.com]

Interesting. I really like the idea of holding back on the perils roll. Very neat way to build suspense.

I still feel that removing Favoured by the Warp can only be a good thing.
The whole "balance" of the psyker is based on having him be powerful but unstable I don't see how adding stability to his abilities is going to do anything but hamper that basic design principle. It seems like it was included as type of maths fix for higher levels but the fix really isn't necessary.

Problem is, the maxed out psyker with high willpower doesnt need it but you compare against the psyker with the military path and maybe taking a prestige class and didnt have the highest willpower to begin with and they depend on that ability to be able to risk using a power as they are still in the same situation they were at character creation, jsut with a bigger range of powers (which are far more difficult to roll).

I see it was implemented to allow non-specialist psykers to actually be able to participate rather than simply being useless characters at later levels while the completely dedicated psyker doesnt need it but still benefits him greatly.

[Ranos]

Top of my head, things that could depower the psyker a bit would be :

Psy rating no longer gives you free powers. You have to buy all of those separately with Psychic Power / Minor Psychic Power talents. Psykers start with one minor power for free at character creation.
You gain access to one Psychic discipline of your choice at Psy rating 3, and a second discipline at Psy rating 6. Never more than that.
No discipline mastery bonus
Invocation doesn't double your willpower bonus for manifesting. Instead, it grants you a +1 bonus to your manifesting roll, and another +1 for every 2 additional degrees of success. Conversely, if you fail the invocation, that's a -1 to your manifesting roll, and another -1 for every 2 additional degrees of failure. You can't just retry the invocation if it fails either - once you've started invoking, it's too late to go back, you'll have to try and manifest the power.


It's not perfect, but it should help.

[king.com]

Psy rating no longer gives you free powers. You have to buy all of those separately with Psychic Power / Minor Psychic Power talents. Psykers start with one minor power for free at character creation.


Wow...thats unnessarily harsh, thats harsher than AD&D mages. I mean I could see you going for a fixed rate per psy rating but that means they realyl have to spend every ounce of XP to give them enough flexibility to do something until like rank 4-5? They better not think about cross-classing either. That immediately drops psykers below Scum in terms of usefulness.
Also makes the Savant tree pointless as you get a grand total of 3 Psychic Powers by max rank. Wow....



You gain access to one Psychic discipline of your choice at Psy rating 3, and a second discipline at Psy rating 6. Never more than that.


That doesnt seem too bad though it makes the Savant tree even worse.



No discipline mastery bonus


That seems pointless since from what your setting its incredibly hard to get it anyway. The Scholar tree only ends up with 8 psychic powers maximum so...you cant actually get it. The bonus is not that major anyway.



Invocation doesn't double your willpower bonus for manifesting. Instead, it grants you a +1 bonus to your manifesting roll, and another +1 for every 2 additional degrees of success. Conversely, if you fail the invocation, that's a -1 to your manifesting roll, and another -1 for every 2 additional degrees of failure. You can't just retry the invocation if it fails either - once you've started invoking, it's too late to go back, you'll have to try and manifest the power.


So, average psyker is running 50% of damaging their next roll. Which is something already dangerous to try so unless you have Lucky already running to let you reroll this, theres really no point.

Your list seem to depend entirely upon the psyker being one who has optimized up the wazoo. They start 45 WP, and bought +20 immediately and took radicals handbook stuff. Which depend on
A) that point buy was used (which in this system, is not the majority)
B) They were willing to go through 5 or 6 session where they have no skills to participate with
C) The party is a radical party.

Thats not what happens in this system, one psyker was running at rank 6 with 58 Wp having bought +20 already. Another barely broke the 50 mark, because they decided they didnt want to be a void born.

The in world effects are easily enough to keep a psykers power under control. Hell its completely justifyable that his fellow party members gun him down at the first sign of trouble and nobody will bat an eyelid.

If he every uses his powers in public, people are going to start screaming witch and they really aren't going to care if hes sanctioned or not.

The ecclesiarchy, the intergalatic religion of humanity for whom lack of membership of is heresy actively hunts down psykers often regardless of whether the black ships have deem them safe or not.

The amount of anti-psyker gear in the Imperium is staggering, and for good reason. Use these issues and make sure the psyker player is aware of them, if they get caught, they are in huge trouble. Fate point burning trouble. Player death trouble, and their party members are just as likely to be responsible as NPC. Remember, he is playing a Mutant, an Abomination! He is a vessel for the Great Enemy and faster his life is ended the safer it is for everyone. Thats easily enough of a drawback for the little power they get.

Ultimately I dont understand why people seem to get so hung up about psykers being too powerful, you want to talk about sillyness in balance, start talking about Black Crusade and Ascension if you really want to but you can atleast get away with that.