grafts and Vow of Poverty question

[NimbleNZ]

i read that you can apply grafts to characters after taking the VoP:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136877&page=36

however, what if you took the graft at say, level 10 (or it was done to you against your will), and then took VoP much later on; would that make it allowable by RAW?

cheers guys,

NimbleNZ

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's still not RAW- you have to get rid of all material goods and magic items when you take the vow. If it was done against your will, then maybe I'd let you keep it. If not, better get your buddy to start cutting.

[Keld Denar]

Grafts are magic items. VoP prevents you from using or benefitting from magic items. It doesn't matter HOW you do it, but you have to give up use of the graft prior to taking the vow or you'll fall.

[Doc Roc]

Grafts are magic items. VoP prevents you from using or benefitting from magic items. It doesn't matter HOW you do it, but you have to give up use of the graft prior to taking the vow or you'll fall.

About the only hack for this is using tomes before you psychic reformation yourself into a vow of poverty. And that's terrible (http://www.photobasement.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/andthatsterrible.jpg).

[Strormer]

If you had it done against your will I wouldn't penalize you as a DM, but you should avoid using it if at all possible and have it removed by a cleric as soon as you could. I wouldn't even give you trouble about having it removed if you went to a cleric that shares your views (alignment notwithstanding).
Now if you're asking as a player for how the feat works and if this is a tool for getting around what you gave up for VoP, then no, you can't do it and you knew that going into the feat as it stated the demands of the feat quite clearly.
The biggest problem I had was that, as a member of the team I was given a share of the loot. I always gave it to a member of the party and the rest of the party got pissed saying that I was unbalancing their shares. That was such a pain. He was an archer and used the money to buy enchanted arrows and the such so yeah, I was good with giving him my money. I ended up donating a sixth of a dragon's horde to a tiny orphanage in some miserable little hamlet we went through. :smallsigh:

[Big Fau]

Grafts are magic items.

They are explicitly not magic items, but they follow some of the rules for magic items (cost and crafting, specifically).


In fact, once applied, a graft is nonmagical. Some of the effects it can use are (such as SLAs or SuAs), but the graft itself is not.

[Lans]

Grafts are magic items. VoP prevents you from using or benefitting from magic items. It doesn't matter HOW you do it, but you have to give up use of the graft prior to taking the vow or you'll fall.

Counter point



Grafts are not magic items

Sword saged

[Strormer]

VoP reads: You must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: ordinary (non-magical, non-MW) simple weapons, simple clothes (non-magical), food for one day in non-magical container, spell component pouch. You may benefit from a magic item used on you by another, but may not cast it yourself or borrow a magical item.
The preceeding was paraphrased to avoid issues, but this is the gist.
It is not just magical items that are in question here, it is any material possession outside these exceptions. If it is not an ordinary simple weapon, ordinary simple clothing, plain food for one day, or spell components in a pouch of negligible value then you cannot have it when you've taken this feat.
It could be argued that since the graft is physically attached to you then it is similar to a potion you were given by another party member (physically in your stomach), but that's pushing it, thus my suggestion of allowing it as long as it remains unused to the extent the graft allows and is removed whenever possible. If one wanted to be a jerk about it, having a graft could constitute breaking the vow, thus irrevocably losing its benefits, but I think that is extreme if the character did not willingly attain the graft.
I've heard of DMs doing dickly moves like having a rogue slight of hand a valuable item like a piece of jewelry onto a monk and then claiming that the monk owned it since it was on his person, but that's a DM basically saying he wants the character to not be using VoP which should've been discussed long before it got to that point.

[Keld Denar]

Ok, my bad. They are "non-magical" items that have a non-zero value that aren't included in the "simple weapon, simple clothes, one day's food" restriction set forth in VoP. Just like you couldn't own a water clock with VoP, you couldn't have a graft.

[Talya]

Also, your arms are non-magical items that have non-zero value and are not included in VOP's list of allowed items. So no using your arms.



Grafts become part of your character. They are not "items" at all once applied.

[Doc Roc]

Ok, my bad. They are "non-magical" items that have a non-zero value that aren't included in the "simple weapon, simple clothes, one day's food" restriction set forth in VoP. Just like you couldn't own a water clock with VoP, you couldn't have a graft.

So yeah, like said, your recourses are magical locations, tomes, and a few other sundry options. Or you could play some other game that does life-without-gear better.


Not... naming any names here.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Also, your arms are non-magical items that have non-zero value and are not included in VOP's list of allowed items. So no using your arms.



Grafts become part of your character. They are not "items" at all once applied.

Don't forget, the same applies to your eyes. You have to get rid of those once you get VoP.


A graft costs money to add onto a creature. After that point, its value becomes zero because it cannot be transferred, salvaged, or otherwise recovered in any way. If you gain grafts prior to taking VoP, there's no remaining value for you to give up, and at that point to remove one on principle is nothing but a senseless waste.

[Doc Roc]

Actually, where is it said that grafts can't be salvaged?

[Trekkin]

Of all the problems I've heard with using BoED in a game, VoP is at the heart of most of the more problematic. My solution would be this:

When you take VoP, all your grafts stop working as anything other than the body part they replace. In effect, you're treated as though you never got any beneficial grafts.

I mean, it's already providing a ton of magical benefits as the character gains levels; why not assume that whatever deity she's swearing the Vow to isn't also going to ensure the ascetic experiences true spiritual purity by making her, as much as possible, unaffected by material wealth? It's probably still abusable somehow, but at least this way there's no incentive to cover a character in grafts and then take Vow of Poverty, and no way a character who once got a graft, perhaps against her will, could be barred from becoming an ascetic.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Actually, where is it said that grafts can't be salvaged?


A graft is not a magic item: It does not radiate magic once completed, it does not count against a creature's limit for magic items worn, it does not have a caster level, and it is very hard, if not impossible, to salvage as treasure. It does, however, count against the treasure value of the character with the graft, which means that creatures with grafts are still appropriate challenges for their normal Challenge Rating, but have reduced treasure.

Thus once the cost is paid and the graft is added to a creature, there is nothing of intrinsic value remaining. It is not a possession, not any more than any other part of the individual's body. "To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions," a graft is not a material possession just like a character's legs are not material possessions.

[Rubik]

I support hacking the limbs off of most VoP characters. At least then they'll look the part of the beggars that they are...

[Keld Denar]

Just because it doesn't have any resale price doesn't mean it doesn't have worth. If you were assassing a characters total "wealth" to compare to the WBL table, you'd include the value of the graft, as well as any inherant bonuses from Wish books or similar. They can't be "looted", but they still have value. Unlike the results of the wish books, grafts are material.

Besides, anyone trying to "pull one over" on VoP is already violating the intent of the vow. The whole point of it is that you give away or otherwise donate your treasure and living a simple aesetic life, and through your selflessness, gain power. Using your treasure to aquire grafts because they technically "don't have resale value" and are therefore "valueless" (which they aren't, see above) is shanananananananananananananiganery. You aren't really being self-less, you are being greedy, and therefore fall.

[Rubik]

VoP characters are selfish anyway. They're putting the whole group (and frequently, the whole WORLD) at risk so they can feel warm and fuzzy about giving up material possessions, as if giving them up is somehow a good thing to do.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regardless of the player's intent, if you jump through all the right hoops in the character's backstory, then there is no grounds for the character to fall.

If you hire one or more NPC spellcasters to put Greater Magic Fang and Permanency on you at caster level 20, it's a permanent magical effect with a value that counts against your wealth by level. Once you get Vow of Poverty, are you required to get that dispelled (likely at an additional cost) or to go get one of the original casters to dismiss the effect? Nothing would be gained in doing so, it would just be a needless waste. Granted it does betray the spirit of the feat, but as long as your character wasn't planning to take up an ascetic lifestyle when he got it done there would be no wrongdoing or risk of falling on his part. The same goes for grafts.

Would a Warforged with Adamantine Body who takes VoP be required to somehow shed his very skin? I seriously doubt it, but this is no different from how grafts interact with that feat.

[Keld Denar]

"You know, I've been thinking of donating all of my money to charity. Its something I've always wanted to do, and I feel like its a good cause. Other people can benefit from the money more than me. I have my faith, I don't need anything else.

BUT, before I go and zero out all of my bank accounts, I'm gonna go out and get $200,000 worth of plastic surgery. I mean, if I'm gonna be dirt poor, I might as well be good looking, too. Don't worry, I'll donate whats left AFTER I pay all of my medical bills to charity. It should be enough."

*Checks bank account. Sees remaining $.36 cents.*

"Well, it was the thought that counts, right? Right? Right? No? Awwwwww."

[Yora]

Grafts are magic items. VoP prevents you from using or benefitting from magic items. It doesn't matter HOW you do it, but you have to give up use of the graft prior to taking the vow or you'll fall.
What if you have read one of those books that improve your ability scores? Do you have to have those bonuses removed as well?

[Rubik]

What if you have read one of those books that improve your ability scores? Do you have to have those bonuses removed as well?Lobotomy time!

[Keld Denar]

As I said above, no, because 2 things. 1) You can get the effect without the book if you were a spellcaster (or someone cast the spells on you), and 2) unlike a graft which leaves a material effect that CAN be removed, the book leaves no physical trace.

That said, as I showed in my example above, liquidating all of your wealth into a book or otherwise expending it right before you are supposed to donate all of your wealth is clearly against the intent and flavor of the Vow. You aren't aesetic, you are greedy. You are basically stealing that money from the causes you've pledged to uphold.

[Rubik]

As I said above, no, because 2 things. 1) You can get the effect without the book if you were a spellcaster (or someone cast the spells on you), and 2) unlike a graft which leaves a material effect that CAN be removed, the book leaves no physical trace.

That said, as I showed in my example above, liquidating all of your wealth into a book or otherwise expending it right before you are supposed to donate all of your wealth is clearly against the intent and flavor of the Vow. You aren't aesetic, you are greedy. You are basically stealing that money from the causes you've pledged to uphold.Does that mean that if you donate that $200k that you'd have to have someone strip your face off to remove the plastic surgery you got last year?

[JaronK]

Grafts are not magic items, or even items at all, once attached to your body. They're a part of you. VoP does not require giving up parts of you, so this works... if you already had the graft before taking the feat. This also applies to tomes, wishes that created permanent effects, and so on. Permanent magic spells should also be fine. As should the effects of magical locations.

Note that Demonic grafts probably prevent you from taking VoP in the first place due to being made of demon flesh and VoP requiring Exalted status. It's a shame, because you can get Demonic grafts for free.

JaronK

[Necroticplague]

Note that Demonic grafts probably prevent you from taking VoP in the first place due to being made of demon flesh and VoP requiring Exalted status. It's a shame, because you can get Demonic grafts for free.

JaronK

Not true, as long as you are willing to deal with the WIS damage (or have a high enough Will save to avoid it), you are no more punished for having a demonic graft than a silithar raft. Funny thing, only nuetral characters have to perform evil acts when they fail their save.

[Zombimode]

Does that mean that if you donate that $200k that you'd have to have someone strip your face off to remove the plastic surgery you got last year?

And thats a strawman. I think what Keld Denar objects to are players that spend their characters wealth (calculated at PC level -1) on inherent bonuses and THEN take VoP. And I agree that this behaviour perverts the intend of the feat.

[Mooncrow]

Given how hard VoP gimps a character, it seems more reasonable to rule grey areas in favor of the player on this one.

[Necroticplague]

And thats a strawman. I think what Keld Denar objects to are players that spend their characters wealth (calculated at PC level -1) on inherent bonuses and THEN take VoP. And I agree that this behaviour perverts the intend of the feat.

While it may pervert the intent, their is no perversion of letter. That is the difference between RAW and RAI. And besides, you can't steal money from a cause you haven't pleged to yet.

[georgie_leech]

I'd say this is entirely up to the DM, as there are good arguments for both sides. Personally, I'd decide via a DMPC of an angel or somesuch:

"Mortal, thine Vow of Poverty shows you worthy of my lord's protection and power. However, thou still hast items of great power in thy possession. (Draws Greatsword) They must be removed to fulfill the terms of the Vow. What say you?"

Agreement: "Thou hast shown conviction and courage. (Sheathes sword)Thou shalt be allowed to keep your grafted flesh, but take heed. Abuse of their magical features spits on the name of my lord. I shall take swift retribution if that comes to pass."

Disagreement: "Then thou shalt not recieve the boons of my lord." (Angel immediately leaves; as DM: "Pick a different feat")

[Gnaeus]

And thats a strawman. I think what Keld Denar objects to are players that spend their characters wealth (calculated at PC level -1) on inherent bonuses and THEN take VoP. And I agree that this behaviour perverts the intend of the feat.

I agree, and between grafts, inherent bonuses, permanent spells cast on target, and non-item/non-possession mechanical benefits like touchstones, companion spirits and membership in organizations, it would be trivially easy for most PCs to spend all their WBL on things that would benefit them, then take VOP. I mean there isn't any RAW in VoP against giving your spouse a huge mansion and a master chef, with the understanding that while they own it, you get to live there and eat gourmet meals given to you. But it pretty clearly violates the vow.

Where there is a grey area, it should first look to RAW (unclear). Then to RAI. Does anyone seriously think that Vow of Poverty was meant to be used in this way? Yes, VoP is underpowered for most characters in most games. Maybe it was intended to be (separate argument here). If you think it should be powered up, that makes a lot of sense, and if my DM proposed rewriting it, I would support the idea. Heck, Wizards told you to do it!!!


One Size Does Not Fit All

The best fit for balancing Vow of Poverty is probably not any of the above but instead an acknowledgement that Vow of Poverty as written greatly favors druids, monks, and sorcerers. Tweaking the poverty benefits to equally fit everyone is not realistic. A better solution is to do one of the following:

Develop a personalized list with the player: You probably have only one PC with this vow. Don't waste your time rewriting an entire rule set. Work with that person, see what he would like to be able to do, what kind of character he would like to create, his reasons for adopting voluntary poverty for his character, and develop a list and a progression that fits that unique PC's situation.
Develop specialized vows: This is hard to do solely on the basis of class when PCs multiclass so often, but you could develop several styles to fit different types of characters -- perhaps one or two for each good alignment. Each list could have a particular flavor for why the character adopted poverty

But I agree with Keld that buying grafts is clearly against the spirit of VoP.

[Rubik]

And thats a strawman. I think what Keld Denar objects to are players that spend their characters wealth (calculated at PC level -1) on inherent bonuses and THEN take VoP. And I agree that this behaviour perverts the intend of the feat.No, that is NOT a strawman. He said that you had to cut off your own body parts in order to take VoP, and likened taking grafts right before taking the vow to getting elective surgery right before donating $200k to charity.

Sure, that's fine, but if you had grafts a few levels previously, that's like having to cut your own face off for surgeries you had a long time ago.

No strawman here; you're just not seeing the intent.

[CactusAir]

Just make grafts and skip VOP. VoP hurts you more than it helps in any game over level 6 where the DM actually allows you to have anything approaching standard WBL.

If you must have grafts *and* VoP, you might get around this by playing a class with an animal companion, mount, or other pet and grafting the heck out of your pet instead.

[JaronK]

Grafts + VoP still loses you a lot of the bonus feats, and you're by no means overpowered at that point. So I don't see the issue. Really, it's like renouncing your old ways in favor of a new way, and good is all about allowing that (sometimes).

Redeemed evil was a big concept in BoED, after all.

JaronK

[Gnaeus]

Except that you aren't really renouncing anything at that point. Renouncing the old way generally means that you stop taking advantages of the benefits of the old way.

[Rubik]

Except that you aren't really renouncing anything at that point. Renouncing the old way generally means that you stop taking advantages of the benefits of the old way.But if that old way is an inherent part of your body, cutting it off does nothing good (unless it's actively evil, of course). Why renounce something neutral when it doesn't make you more good?

But then, that's exactly what you're doing for VoP, so...

[NimbleNZ]

intersting, thanks for the responses guys.

i was actually asking because its the cornerstone of one of the pvp builds i have been working on.

however, although some of you were in favour, it looks like opinion in divided enough for me to not bother submitting a build for public criticism that has such a controversial element to it.

ill just say that would it have been sweet have had:

-freedom of movement
-true sight
-decent stat bonuses
-deflection AC
-regeneration
-exalted attack/damage bonuses
-mind shielding

...and to still have been able to fly.

what's that? ...you're casting MDJ at me to dispel all my magical gear? too bad i DON'T HAVE ANY :belkar:

sigh :smallwink:

[CactusAir]

I agree, and between grafts, inherent bonuses, permanent spells cast on target, and non-item/non-possession mechanical benefits like touchstones, companion spirits and membership in organizations, it would be trivially easy for most PCs to spend all their WBL on things that would benefit them, then take VOP. I mean there isn't any RAW in VoP against giving your spouse a huge mansion and a master chef, with the understanding that while they own it, you get to live there and eat gourmet meals given to you. But it pretty clearly violates the vow.


Except that

1) unless there has been a huge errata I missed somewhere, touchstones are items, with a value of several hundred GP each.

2) If you spent money on memberships, companion spirits, and +5 tomes, and then take VOP, this still leaves you with less punch than someone who spent his WBL on items that give him more abilities or synergize with his abilities, rather than flat static bonuses, 98 times out of 100.

VoP is in no way balanced as written. It's too good at levels 1-4 for some classes, and is clearly underpowered for almost every other occasion.

[Talya]

I don't know why I always have to point this out...

Nothing prevents a VOP character from getting a big pile of inherent bonuses. Sure, they're not likely getting it from tomes or manuals (although there's ways around that, too), but they are likely getting it from the influential churches or temples that they have donated several hundred thousand gold peices worth of items and coin to over 12-20 levels. It's called gaining "good will," and there are suggestions in the same book VOP is in on dealing with it.

(Note that this in no way makes VOP a mechanically good option for the majority of charcter concepts.)

[DeAnno]

For certain more liberal churches, one might even argue that goodwill could lead to them knocking you out, strapping you down to a table, and grafting useful parts onto you so you could do a better job of going out in the world to bring them money. Adventurers are really the best investment.

[Morph Bark]

"You know, I've been thinking of donating all of my money to charity. Its something I've always wanted to do, and I feel like its a good cause. Other people can benefit from the money more than me. I have my faith, I don't need anything else.

BUT, before I go and zero out all of my bank accounts, I'm gonna go out and get $200,000 worth of plastic surgery. I mean, if I'm gonna be dirt poor, I might as well be good looking, too. Don't worry, I'll donate whats left AFTER I pay all of my medical bills to charity. It should be enough."

*Checks bank account. Sees remaining $.36 cents.*

"Well, it was the thought that counts, right? Right? Right? No? Awwwwww."

While in that regard the spirt of the eat is grossly violated, it would not be if you first take grafts and everything and then come to realize you want to take the Vow.