[PF] Full attack with alchemist fire?

[Dyllan]

Okay, a friend is playing an Alchemist in an upcoming Pathfinder game, and has run into a problem.

He's taking the discovery that lets him full attack with bombs. However, we can't find a way to full attack with alchemist fire (as he'll run out of bombs quickly). I find it a bit ridiculous that he has time to grab ingredients, mix 3 bombs and throw them during a full attack, but doesn't have time to grab 3 pre-made alchemical items and throw them during a full attack.

Apparently quick draw specifically prohibits alchemical items (although I can't imagine why).

Any suggestions on ways around this? Other feats? Gear (magical or mundane)? I saw someone mention some kind of gnomish sling that could be used with alchemical items, but I can't find any record of it, and I'm not sure if it was even a Pathfinder item.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[stormtemplar]

You could always ask you DM to either Fiat it away or make some sort of house rule feat or item. (I don't have the knowledge to help though)

[Mockingbird]

Take the discovery that lets you grow more arms, and throw one with each hand?

(Lamp oil? Rope? Bombs? You want it? It's yours, my friend. As long as you have enough rupees.)

[Ravens_cry]

With the Quick Draw feat, I see no reason you can't full attack with alchemist fire and other splash weapons.
***
Except the feat description.
Damn.
Well, I would houserule it such, but only for alchemical items and for an Alchemist, only they have the knowledge to draw these rather delicate solutions without blowing their hand off.

[Mooncrow]

With the Quick Draw feat, I see no reason you can't full attack with alchemist fire and other splash weapons.

Aside from Jason Bulmahn really hating throwing rogues and specifically banning it in Pathfinder.

[Ravens_cry]

Aside from Jason Bulmahn really hating throwing rogues and specifically banning it in Pathfinder.
Yeah, I just noticed. Ranged rogues have always had a hard time mind, but still. . .

[Psyren]

Well, I would houserule it such, but only for alchemical items and for an Alchemist, only they have the knowledge to draw these rather delicate solutions without blowing their hand off.

This sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[Novawurmson]

Aside from Jason Bulmahn really hating throwing rogues and specifically banning it in Pathfinder.

How are thrown rogues banned in Pathfinder? /interested

[Psyren]

How are thrown rogues banned in Pathfinder? /interested

He meant that Quick Drawing alchemical items (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat---final) is banned. This inadvertently nerfs throwing rogues.

[Mooncrow]

He meant that Quick Drawing alchemical items (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat---final) is banned. This inadvertently nerfs throwing rogues.

Well, it wasn't inadvertent at all, actually. That was the whole point of adding that exception in :p

But yeah, the "specifically banned" was referring to the use of Quick Draw to throw flasks, not throwing rogues in general. But with that gone, now it's more of a "why bother?"

[Prime32]

He meant that Quick Drawing alchemical items (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat---final) is banned. This inadvertently nerfs throwing rogues.Well, "splash weapons can't be used for sneak attack" nerfs them deliberately. You also sometimes can't deal precision damage with anything that's a touch attack; this rule explicitly does not apply to guns for some reason.

The Pathfinder designers are known for banning or allowing things based on whether they like the flavour rather than whether it's consistent.

[Psyren]

Well, "splash weapons can't be used for sneak attack" nerfs them deliberately. You also can't deal precision damage with anything that's a touch attack; this rule explicitly does not apply to guns for some reason.

Where'd you get that from? Attack roll = sneak attack, provided you meet the other prereqs (target flanked/denied Dex, within 30 ft. etc.etc.) The fact that it's a touch attack doesn't change anything.

[Prime32]

Where'd you get that from? Attack roll = sneak attack, provided you meet the other prereqs (target flanked/denied Dex, within 30 ft. etc.etc.) The fact that it's a touch attack doesn't change anything.Edited in the word "sometimes" before you posted. Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) disallows it.

[Ravens_cry]

Edited in the word "sometimes" before you posted. Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) disallows it.
Nothing about that disallows sneak attack.

[Prime32]

Nothing about that disallows sneak attack.
You also sometimes can't deal precision damage with anything that's a touch attack; this rule explicitly does not apply to guns for some reason.Whuh? Where did I say sneak attack? :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Whuh? Where did I say sneak attack? :smallconfused:

You said "precision damage" which is a catch-all for sneak attack and related effects (sudden strike, skirmish etc.) as well as critical hits.

As for Deadly Aim, they disallow touch attacks so that the choice of giving up attack for damage is meaningful (though I personally think archers could have used the boost anyway.)

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

He was talking about deadly aim, which can't be used with touch attacks... for game balance reasons, I guess.

Description of Deadly Aim actually sounds a lot like other precision sources: "You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed."

Edit: Archers don't generally make ranged touch attacks. I think this was for alchemist stuff, and spells.

[deuxhero]

He meant that Quick Drawing alchemical items (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat---final) is banned. This inadvertently nerfs throwing rogues.

Then quick draw an improvised melee weapon!

[Psyren]

Then quick draw an improvised melee weapon!

Those don't go boom. :smallfrown:

[deuxhero]

When they are bombs, yes they do.

[Yora]

I would create an item that allows to store flasks like weapons, so you can draw them with the quick draw feat. Like a bag of hard leather with compartments to store each flask that you can can carry on a strap in front of you.

In German we have this funny word "Bauchladen", no idea what they are called in english. Something like this (http://www.rocketpacks.de/ing/bier-rucksack/bauchladen-2.jpg), just more compact and better protected.

Though I remember one story in which a character was fighting an alchemist who carried dozens of flask and killed him with the shatter spell. :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Technically, they are weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Throw-Splash-Weapon), and qualify as such for most feats. It's just that the modified Quick Draw feat disallows them specifically.

[Psyren]

When they are bombs, yes they do.

I don't think meleeing with a bomb is the smartest thing an alchie could do with his career...



Though I remember one story in which a character was fighting an alchemist who carried dozens of flask and killed him with the shatter spell. :smallbiggrin:

You're not endearing me on this idea :smalleek:

But if you're asking what soldiers use e.g. to carry multiple grenades, that would be a bandolier.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Not being able to quick draw alchemical items is about the dumbest things I've seen

[deuxhero]

Hence why you work around the inability to draw them as bombs (which the 3.5 version didn't let you do either) and draw them as improv weapons.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Seems to me like asking your DM for a houserule is more likely to work at the table, super-strict-RAW DMs excepted.

[NNescio]

In German we have this funny word "Bauchladen", no idea what they are called in english. Something like this (http://www.rocketpacks.de/ing/bier-rucksack/bauchladen-2.jpg), just more compact and better protected.

Vendor trays. 'though, "Belly Shop" is just plain funnier.

[Ravens_cry]

Seems to me like asking your DM for a houserule is more likely to work at the table, super-strict-RAW DMs excepted.

Not really, you could also include those that go by RAI as well. After all, this is an addition to the rules, it is not some 3.X screwy RAW wording that was all too likely a piece of bad editing.

[Dyllan]

The problem with a house rule is, this is a mini-campaign run by someone who's not usually the DM, and in the same game world shared by our two regular DMs. He's already said he's making no house rules for this, as he feels like it's not his game world to mess with.

And since both the regular DMs are playing PCs in this game, he doesn't think it's fair to make house rules that the two of us agree with either (as letting PCs set house rules would be a conflict of interest). So, since we haven't run into this rule until now and therefore haven't house ruled it in the past, we're stuck with RAW.

It's not the end of the world. He's going to wear two spring loaded wrist sheathes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services#TOC-Wrist-Sheath-spring-loaded) so he can pull two flasks as swift actions. And he'll be sure to pull one as part of a move action any time he's not full attacking. Then he'll just mix them in with his bombs as part of a full attack. It's not ideal, but it will hopefully extend his bomb supply far enough that he won't often run out.

[Psyren]

Hence why you work around the inability to draw them as bombs (which the 3.5 version didn't let you do either) and draw them as improv weapons.

Bombs/splash weapons are most certainly "crafted to be weapons." They thus disqualify themselves from the improv weapons rule.


And since both the regular DMs are playing PCs in this game, he doesn't think it's fair to make house rules that the two of us agree with either (as letting PCs set house rules would be a conflict of interest). So, since we haven't run into this rule until now and therefore haven't house ruled it in the past, we're stuck with RAW.

That's the silliest thing I've ever read but okay.

"This is a perfectly reasonable change, we're all mature adults here and both regular DMs would be okay with it but the gaming gods have tied my hands."

[MukkTB]

All you need is a group houserule that quick draw lets you grab that stuff. Damn just house rule that you can use the 3.5 quickdraw feat.

I really don't care for the way pathfinder set out to nerf some nonmagic combat styles but didn't do much at all to fix the tier system. It seems biased and cowardly at the same time.

[Dyllan]

That's the silliest thing I've ever read but okay.

"This is a perfectly reasonable change, we're all mature adults here and both regular DMs would be okay with it but the gaming gods have tied my hands."

I do see your point, but as it's not a game breaking problem, we have a history of supporting DM decisions (a level of respect for the DM that I really respect). I'm not going to make an issue of it.

[panaikhan]

My Alchemist is designing a flask-launcher. The device attaches to the shoulder-pad of her leather armour and is belt-fed from the handy haversack on her back. Needs the 'rapid reload' feat, but works.