Hideous Laughter and Water

[Ursus the Grim]

How would you adjudicate this?

Player casts Hideous Laughter on a flying enemy. Enemy is flying over water (poor maneuverability) when affected. Seems reasonable that the flying enemy would fall into the water. What happens then? They can take no actions, but are not considered 'helpless'. Do they begin to drown? Can they make swim checks?

What happens when they get their actions? They have natural flight (wings), but with poor maneuverability, how do they get back into the air?

[Yuki Akuma]

Seeing as you can't even stand under the effects of Tasha's Hideous Laughter, I doubt you can tread water either. A swim check technically isn't an action in and of itself, though.

As for getting into the air, you don't need a run up to fly. Anything with a fly speed can just hop right into the air.

[Ursus the Grim]

Seeing as you can't even stand under the effects of Tasha's Hideous Laughter, I doubt you can tread water either. A swim check technically isn't an action in and of itself, though.

As for getting into the air, you don't need a run up to fly. Anything with a fly speed can just hop right into the air.

Yeah, I think this may be a case of something being more fatal in a given scenario than originally intended.

See I always thought that was weird. Most "Large Birds" have difficulty just taking off from a standstill, and I thought I had seen elaboration somewhere (perhaps Draconomicon) on Flight dynamics.

[Doughnut Master]

Clever. To me, it looks like the target would simply drown. Pretty horrific way to go.

To give the target a slight chance, I might say swim checks with a big penalty. But from the way the spell works, it looks like they'll be sucking water pretty soon.

[Ursus the Grim]

Clever. To me, it looks like the target would simply drown. Pretty horrific way to go.

To give the target a slight chance, I might say swim checks with a big penalty. But from the way the spell works, it looks like they'll be sucking water pretty soon.

Yeah. You can't even hold your breath because, you know, you're laughing. Not much a chance of surviving the duration, either.

[Aemoh87]

have you seen the drowning rules for 3.5? It takes FOREVER to drown.

[Yuki Akuma]

I doubt you can hold your breath while magically compelled to laugh uncontrollably.

It takes 18 seconds to drown. Three rounds.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter lasts a minimum of three rounds (two, if you're a bard).

[Gullintanni]

have you seen the drowning rules for 3.5? It takes FOREVER to drown.


I doubt you can hold your breath while magically compelled to laugh uncontrollably.

It takes 18 seconds to drown.

Yuki is correct. IIRC, (AFB atm) you can hold your breath nearly forever with a high enough CON, but once you start drowning it's a short journey to a watery grave.

And well...as mentioned...magical compulsion...laughter...etc...

[Jolly]

Is there a chance there thrashing might act as an involuntary whole body form of treading water? Perhaps give it a %5 chance and roll percentile for it each round.

And it might take a round or two to fall into the lake depending on the altitude of flight.

[Ravens_cry]

Well . . .
D&D is weird.
If you jump, it takes time to fall, using your movement speed. But falling from any height is instantaneous, IIRC.
Don't try this at home kids.

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually, I think there are rules for how far you fall per round... But it's something like 300 feet in the first round, and more after that, so.


Is there a chance there thrashing might act as an involuntary whole body form of treading water? Perhaps give it a %5 chance and roll percentile for it each round.

Er...

When you're in danger of drowning, thrashing around is exactly the thing you want to avoid doing. You will go under.

[herrhauptmann]

Actually, I think there are rules for how far you fall per round... But it's something like 300 feet in the first round, and more after that, so.



Er...

When you're in danger of drowning, thrashing around is exactly the thing you want to avoid doing. You will go under.

When I imagine someone a victim of Hideous Laughter, I imagine someone holding their belly trying not to pee themselves as they laugh. Eventually falling over and wheezing as they try to breathe.
Doesn't sound like the sort of circumstances where someone could tread water
Real life: You can tread water without hands OR feat. Even with an extra load (backpack/clothes). You can tread water with the classic 'eggbeater kick' or by using a 'jog in place' motion. I don't think you could do any of those while being compelled to laugh as described above.

So yeah, Tasha's becomes deadly in the right circumstances. Maybe someone could freeze some water and give the enemy something to have a chance of holding onto.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Screw water, hit them with Crisist of Breath (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crisisofBreath.htm). Now that is a deadly combo. :smallamused:

Just the mental image of Someones mouth stretching wide andthen dry heaving as the magic forces them to laugh and psionics energy prevents them from breathing. If joker ever exists in DnD, he would use this combo. It's just horrifying.

[Gotterdammerung]

The flying creature would not be able to move so it would definitely fall in the water.

Swimming does take an action. The creature can't take actions while under the affects of hideous laughter. So it can not swim.


It is impossible to hold your breath and laugh at the same time.

On round 1 the creature will fall to 0 hit points and go unconscious.

On round 2 the creature will fall to -1 hit points and is dying.

On round 3 the creature will suffocate completely and die.

The good news, the creature will stop laughing once it goes unconscious on round one.

The bad news, it is 100% going to die unless something pulls it out of the water.

Recap:
Can't fly= fall

Can't make swim checks= sink and risk of drowning.

Can't hold breath= instant drowning = round 1 unconscious, round2 dying, round 3 dead.


Fun combo. Would be neat to see a bard or wizard pull this off with a summoned water elemental acting as the catchers mitt.

[CactusAir]

This is an awesome way to kill someone in D&D. Consider this idea appropriated for my next game/webcomic/fanfic. (with your permission, of course)

[Rubik]

It IS possible to hold your breath and still laugh. Maybe not laugh hysterically, but I've done it before.

Anyway, yeah, this is rather lethal. Much like a shaper hitting someone with this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ectoplasmicCocoon.htm) in the same circumstance, only it isn't as disturbing from an outsider's perspective.

[Gotterdammerung]

It IS possible to hold your breath and still laugh. Maybe not laugh hysterically, but I've done it before.


Except, No, it actually is impossible to hold your breath and laugh.
You can laugh on the exhale of a breath, and even on the inhale of a breath (although it sounds very weird). But you absolutely can not HOLD your breath and laugh.

The sound of laughing requires breath.

A similar scenario. I put my brother in a sleeper hold. He gives a weak wheezy cry "I can't breath!" I reply "Yes, you can breathe. Otherwise, you would not have been able to say 'I can't breathe'. What you meant to say was ' I can't breathe very well, please let me go."

[Rubik]

Except, No, it actually is impossible to hold your breath and laugh.
You can laugh on the exhale of a breath, and even on the inhale of a breath (although it sounds very weird). But you absolutely can not HOLD your breath and laugh.

The sound of laughing requires breath.

A similar scenario. I put my brother in a sleeper hold. He gives a weak wheezy cry "I can't breath!" I reply "Yes, you can breathe. Otherwise, you would not have been able to say 'I can't breathe'. What you meant to say was ' I can't breathe very well, please let me go."I can close my throat shut and hit the laughter convulsions. I'm not making any NOISE, but I'm still laughing.

[Keld Denar]

Then you aren't laughing, you're convulsing. The spell isn't called "Tasha's Moderately Annoying Siezure". lawl

[Rubik]

Then you aren't laughing, you're convulsing. The spell isn't called "Tasha's Moderately Annoying Siezure". lawlConvulsing in laughter, yes.

However, the spell will likely push you past the point where you can do that, so it still works as stated above.

[Snowbluff]

have you seen the drowning rules for 3.5? It takes FOREVER to drown.

Holy crap! I just looked through them! You can go like a whole fight wihtout breathing 0.0

[Ravens_cry]

Holy crap! I just looked through them! You can go like a whole fight wihtout breathing 0.0
Indeed, it has happened.
While most cannot equal Guybrush Threepwoods legendary ten minutes, it is often long enough if you are in a fight.

[Ursus the Grim]

This is an awesome way to kill someone in D&D. Consider this idea appropriated for my next game/webcomic/fanfic. (with your permission, of course)

Erm, by all means? If you actually use it, I'd be quite flattered, but I doubt I'm the first to think it up, and there are funnier combos out there.


Then you aren't laughing, you're convulsing. The spell isn't called "Tasha's Moderately Annoying Siezure". lawl

Careful now. Moderately Annoying Seizure doesn't belong to anyone, the copyright police say so. :smallbiggrin:

In no way is this at all related to what just happened to the Raven's newest pet. Not at all. . . I mean. . . . damn it, I queued it up before I realized the consequences! :smallfrown:


Holy crap! I just looked through them! You can go like a whole fight wihtout breathing 0.0

I like to play Lizardfolk. I can go several fights without breathing. :D

[KillianHawkeye]

Thanks for this. I am totally going to use this strategy sometime. I am playing a Gray Jester in an Evil campaign, and I get Tasha's Hideous Laughter at-will. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Socratov]

Death by laughter! that would make quite the chaotic execution :), maybe featured with a perform(comedy) beforehand to help set the mood

[Yuki Akuma]

Laughing can actually rupture something important and kill you, you know.

So can sneezing, coughing, and yawning.

Have fun!

[Socratov]

Laughing can actually rupture something important and kill you, you know.

So can sneezing, coughing, and yawning.

Have fun!

you are not assuming modern medicine works in 3.5? sure if the DM allows the anurysm on a nat 1 on a saving throw that would increase the power of the spell :)

also, it's not unheard of to suffocate while laughing, the unctrollable spasms in the midriff could actually cause youto stop breathing, seen it almsot happen once myself... quite dampens the fun...

[Gotterdammerung]

you are not assuming modern medicine works in 3.5? sure if the DM allows the anurysm on a nat 1 on a saving throw that would increase the power of the spell :)

also, it's not unheard of to suffocate while laughing, the unctrollable spasms in the midriff could actually cause youto stop breathing, seen it almsot happen once myself... quite dampens the fun...

Divine prankster's "Killing Joke" from races of stone is a good example of the danger of laughing too hard.

Also, it wouldn't be too hard for a bard or wizard to research a new spell that is a higher form of a laughter spell with a save or die component.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually, I think there are rules for how far you fall per round... But it's something like 300 feet in the first round, and more after that, so.
There are two different sets of rules for this, actually.

Tactical Aerial Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#tacticalAerialMovement), for creatures with wings; Dungeon Master's Guide, page 20: fall 150' in the first round, and 300' in subsequent rounds when you stall (fail to maintain minimum horizontal flight requirement)
The usual laws of physics, for non-winged creatures; Dungeon Master's Guide, page 136: fall about 500' in the first round, and 1200' in subsequent rounds after reaching terminal velocity (computations in the FAQ)

[Ziegander]

How would you adjudicate this?

Player casts Hideous Laughter on a flying enemy. Enemy is flying over water (poor maneuverability) when affected. Seems reasonable that the flying enemy would fall into the water. What happens then? They can take no actions, but are not considered 'helpless'. Do they begin to drown? Can they make swim checks?

What happens when they get their actions? They have natural flight (wings), but with poor maneuverability, how do they get back into the air?

1) Yes, the flying enemy falls into the water.

2) No, they do not begin to drown.

3) Yes, they can make swim checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm). "Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water."

4) When they get their actions, apparently, yes they can just up and fly out of the water. I had thought that fliers of certain maneuverabilities had to move a certain distance to take off, but that's only for turning and for moving between down and up.

[DarkestKnight]

not to burst any bubbles, as I've been chuckling as i catch up on this post, but what happens when the victim has cast fly or such and it is magical effects keeping them aloft? i don't think this would work on them. the only exception being wind walk (the one that lets you step on air, not sure if that is the right spell) in my mind.

[Socratov]

1) Yes, the flying enemy falls into the water.

2) No, they do not begin to drown.

3) Yes, they can make swim checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm). "Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water."

4) When they get their actions, apparently, yes they can just up and fly out of the water. I had thought that fliers of certain maneuverabilities had to move a certain distance to take off, but that's only for turning and for moving between down and up.

ok, let's look at the SRD entries:


Check

Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water. Success means you may swim at up to one-half your speed (as a full-round action) or at one-quarter your speed (as a move action). If you fail by 4 or less, you make no progress through the water. If you fail by 5 or more, you go underwater.

If you are underwater, either because you failed a Swim check or because you are swimming underwater intentionally, you must hold your breath. You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to twice your Constitution score, but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. (Effectively, a character in combat can hold his or her breath only half as long as normal.) After that period of time, you must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round to continue holding your breath. Each round, the DC for that check increases by 1. If you fail the Constitution check, you begin to drown.

The DC for the Swim check depends on the water, as given on the table below.
Swim DCs Water Swim DC

You can’t take 10 on a Swim check in stormy water, even if you aren’t otherwise being threatened or distracted.

Calm water 10
Rough water 15
Stormy water 201

Each hour that you swim, you must make a DC 20 Swim check or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage from fatigue.

See also: epic usages of Swim.
Action

A successful Swim check allows you to swim one-quarter of your speed as a move action or one-half your speed as a full-round action.
Special

Swim checks are subject to double the normal armor check penalty and encumbrance penalty.

If you have the Athletic feat, you get a +2 bonus on Swim checks.

If you have the Endurance feat, you get a +4 bonus on Swim checks made to avoid taking nonlethal damage from fatigue.

A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. The creature always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. Such a creature can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line.


Hideous Laughter
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature; see text
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone. The subject can take no actions while laughing, but is not considered helpless. After the spell ends, it can act normally.

A creature with an Intelligence score of 2 or lower is not affected. A creature whose type is different from the caster’s receives a +4 bonus on its saving throw, because humor doesn’t “translate” well.
Material Component

Tiny tarts that are thrown at the target and a feather that is waved in the air.

So, the evidence is inconclusive, the swim entry in the skills section doesn't say anything when you can't take actions. It does say that when making a swim check you can take full round actions to move a certain distance. I know the following example isn't RAW, but it could help. When I was in a campaing i got stunned while flying. Losing control and unable to take actions or do anything my Dm ruled that as I was unable to do anything while stunned i can't make swimchecks, automaticly failing them, thus sinking further and further and ultimately drowning. common sense supports this, if you can't move controlled because you are laughing like mad you cant swim. I guess this will have to be houseruled...

[Ziegander]

So, the evidence is inconclusive, the swim entry in the skills section doesn't say anything when you can't take actions. It does say that when making a swim check you can take full round actions to move a certain distance.

Except it's 100% clear. You make a swim check every round when you are in water. Period. That's not an action. Not even a free action. If your check succeeds you may then move (which Hideous Laughter prevents you from doing). If you fail by 1 to 4, then you simply can't move. You do not start drowning until you fail by 5 or more (at which point your inability to breath while laughing makes you automatically fail to hold your breath).

EDIT: Honestly, I would allow players to hold their breath while affected by Hideous Laughter and underwater, because neither breathing nor holding one's breath is an action, and "This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter" is fluff text not rules text.

If we used the popular ruling that "you can't laugh and breath at the same time" then we'd have to infer a suffocating condition that doesn't exist and force players to roll Constitution checks to avoid suffocating while laughing on dry land. Since I don't think anyone is advocating doing that, then we also cannot, while preserving consistency, advocate auto-drowning while laughing underwater.

[Socratov]

snip for relevance

If we used the popular ruling that "you can't laugh and breath at the same time" then we'd have to infer a suffocating condition that doesn't exist and force players to roll Constitution checks to avoid suffocating while laughing on dry land. Since I don't think anyone is advocating doing that, then we also cannot, while preserving consistency, advocate auto-drowning while laughing underwater.

I would try that, though only on failin the check by 5 or more, or on a natural 1 :smallyuk:

[Curious]

If we used the popular ruling that "you can't laugh and breath at the same time" then we'd have to infer a suffocating condition that doesn't exist and force players to roll Constitution checks to avoid suffocating while laughing on dry land.

Eh? Nobody's saying you can't laugh and breathe at the same time, they're saying you can't laugh and hold your breath at the same time, which is completely true.

[Socratov]

Eh? Nobody's saying you can't laugh and breathe at the same time, they're saying you can't laugh and hold your breath at the same time, which is completely true.

when laughing hysterically enough you cant, you kind of start to hickup while laughing, so when you try to breathe, the hickups and the laughing are creating such spasms so your midriff can't function thus you cant breathe... This ofcouerse gives great mening to the phrase: Dieing laughing...

[MesiDoomstalker]

This ofcouerse gives great mening to the phrase: Dieing laughing...

I'm making a build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221368)inspired by this thread based on this idea. Shamless Plug

[Ursus the Grim]

Okay, so aside from arguing the whole breathing/laughing/ breath holding and its associated semantics, I think there's something else that can contribute to the deadly outcome.

Hideous Laughter does explicitly state that the defender falls prone. Consider this in water?

[Socratov]

Okay, so aside from arguing the whole breathing/laughing/ breath holding and its associated semantics, I think there's something else that can contribute to the deadly outcome.

Hideous Laughter does explicitly state that the defender falls prone. Consider this in water?

yeah, that's where WotC stopped thinking i guess since it no actually described in the rules... So i guess that's up to the DM...

[Gotterdammerung]

1) Yes, the flying enemy falls into the water.

2) No, they do not begin to drown.

3) Yes, they can make swim checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm). "Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water."

4) When they get their actions, apparently, yes they can just up and fly out of the water. I had thought that fliers of certain maneuverabilities had to move a certain distance to take off, but that's only for turning and for moving between down and up.


#2 They can not hold their breath and they are under water, so yes the DO begin to drown.

#3 swim checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm), every skill has a section labeled "actions" which is used to determine what action a skill check represents. Swim checks do require actions. Hideous laughter prevents actions. Ergo, you can't swim while under the effects of the spell.

That is per the rules, but even going outside of the rules the drowning is supported. The spell makes you laugh so hard you can't even stand up. There isn't even a skill check for standing because it is so innate and simple. But Hideous laughter brings forth such an uncontrollable fit of laughter that you can't even stand anymore. What makes you think anyone would be capable of the coordination of movement required to swim or tread water?

#4 realistically, no they wouldn't be able to fly out from the water unless they had a way to launch their body completely clear of the water.
But, by the rules, yes they can just decide to fly.


not to burst any bubbles, as I've been chuckling as i catch up on this post, but what happens when the victim has cast fly or such and it is magical effects keeping them aloft? i don't think this would work on them. the only exception being wind walk (the one that lets you step on air, not sure if that is the right spell) in my mind.


The scenario was talking about a naturally flying creature.

A creature magically held aloft or a naturally buoyant creature, like a beholder (by the way, did you know a beholder moves by tooting!) would not fall.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, I think there are rules for how far you fall per round... But it's something like 300 feet in the first round, and more after that, so.

150' in the first round, 300' in each round after that. It's in the rules for creatures with fly speeds that can't maintain forward velocity. Apparently they never thought they'd need to actually qualify how fast someone falls when they're not already a flyer. :smallannoyed:

[Keld Denar]

If, however, you double move in your turn (lets assume a 30' move speed), and you go 50' and then make a jump check. Assuming you make a jump check of 15+, you're jump will take you further than you are allowed to move for the round. That means you have to wait until your next turn to land, and you don't fall at all between then.

[Socratov]

If, however, you double move in your turn (lets assume a 30' move speed), and you go 50' and then make a jump check. Assuming you make a jump check of 15+, you're jump will take you further than you are allowed to move for the round. That means you have to wait until your next turn to land, and you don't fall at all between then.

so, ToB is anime, and DnD is matrix?

[Keld Denar]

Only if the camera rotates around you one full revolution while you are suspended in mid air while waiting to land.

[Sliver]

Of course it feels like you are suspended in air because of the turns mechanic, but saying that is how it works in the game world is like saying everybody wait patiently for their turn in combat.

[Ziegander]

#2 They can not hold their breath and they are under water, so yes the DO begin to drown.

They are under water according to what rules? No, until a swim check is failed by 5 or more a creature in water remains above the water.


#3 swim checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm), every skill has a section labeled "actions" which is used to determine what action a skill check represents. Swim checks do require actions. Hideous laughter prevents actions. Ergo, you can't swim while under the effects of the spell.

You are wrong. There is a clear and distinct difference between making a Swim check and literally swimming. The rules are not confusing. The Swim skill check does not require action. Moving through the water, swimming, does.

[Gotterdammerung]

You are wrong. There is a clear and distinct difference between making a Swim check and literally swimming. The rules are not confusing. The Swim skill check does not require action. Moving through the water, swimming, does.


This is an example of you making up rules. Which is fine if your the DM.

The skill section has a format.

The action section in that format is where using the skill is assigned an action usage.

There are other examples of skills that require no action. Swim is not one of these skills.

If swim required no action, it would say so under the "action" section of the skill format.

Also in D and D any rigorous movement translates into a move action. There is precedent for this all over the place. Jumping up and down in one square doing jumping jacks would require a move action. It is not a free action. You definitely could not swim while under the effects of Tasha's hideous laughter.

This results in you sinking.

You can argue that once underwater the creature could hold its breath, since holding your breath while laughing is not covered in the rules at all. But in most cases, when you run across something not covered in the rules, logic and precedent dictates the GM's decision. Logic dictates that one could not laugh uncontrollably and also hold their breath.

You simply can not argue that a creature under the effect of tasha's hideous laughter is capable of swimming or treading water, as it is an act that first off requires a move action, and secondly requires a level of coordination, both of which are restricted by the effects of the spell.

[Curmudgeon]

You are wrong. There is a clear and distinct difference between making a Swim check and literally swimming. The rules are not confusing. The Swim skill check does not require action.
That's not what the rules say.
Check: Make a Swim check once per round while you are in the water. Success means you may swim at up to one-half your speed (as a full-round action) or at one-quarter your speed (as a move action). If you fail by 4 or less, you make no progress through the water. If you fail by 5 or more, you go underwater.
...
Action: A successful Swim check allows you to swim one-quarter of your speed as a move action or one-half your speed as a full-round action. Succeeding on a Swim check means you may move through the water, though it does not require you to make horizontal progress; however, it does require you to use one of those listed actions.

From the introduction to the Skills chapter (Player's Handbook, page 65):
Time and Skill Checks
Using a skill might take a round, take no time, or take several rounds or even longer. Most skill uses are standard actions, move actions, or full-round actions. Types of actions define how long activities take to perform within the framework of a combat round (6 seconds) and how movement is treated with respect to the activity (see Action Types, page 138). Some skill checks are instant and represent reactions to an event, or are included as part of an action. These skill checks are not actions. Other skill checks represent part of movement. The distance you jump when making a Jump check, for example, is part of your movement. Each skill description specifies the time required to make a check. The Swim skill specifies the time required for the check: either a move action or a full-round action. While your Swim check may be simply to keep from going underwater without horizontal progress, that still takes the required time.

Action: None. Making a Concentration check doesn’t take an action; it is either a free action (when attempted reactively) or part of another action (when attempted actively).
You can't just assume that a skill check is a free action or no action; those actions must be specified in the RAW, as in the above example. As Gotterdammerung already noted while I was assembling this :smallsigh:, you're making up something not in the rules.

[Ziegander]

So, you're both saying that, in order to swim, the player decides before he makes his Swim check, how fast he wants to attempt to move through the water, spending the appropriate action and making the Swim check as a part of that action? Thus if a character is unable to take actions at all, the same character is unable to make Swim checks?

But that's not what the rules say, do they? The rules say that a character may move, depending on whether or not his Swim check succeeds. Clearly, the Swim check is made first, then the player chooses whether or not to move and how fast. What sort of action would it be if the player didn't wish to move through the water? That's undefined by the rules.

[Fax Celestis]

So, you're both saying that, in order to swim, the player decides before he makes his Swim check, how fast he wants to attempt to move through the water, spending the appropriate action and making the Swim check as a part of that action? Thus if a character is unable to take actions at all, the same character is unable to make Swim checks?

Pretty much, yes.

[Jolly]

If you are in water and wish to avoid sinking, it requires a swim check. Swim checks use up actions. I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise without redefining those terms as used in the ruleset.

[Gotterdammerung]

So, you're both saying that, in order to swim, the player decides before he makes his Swim check, how fast he wants to attempt to move through the water, spending the appropriate action and making the Swim check as a part of that action? Thus if a character is unable to take actions at all, the same character is unable to make Swim checks?

But that's not what the rules say, do they? The rules say that a character may move, depending on whether or not his Swim check succeeds. Clearly, the Swim check is made first, then the player chooses whether or not to move and how fast. What sort of action would it be if the player didn't wish to move through the water? That's undefined by the rules.



Argumentum ad nauseam.

[Curmudgeon]

So, you're both saying that, in order to swim, the player decides before he makes his Swim check, how fast he wants to attempt to move through the water, spending the appropriate action and making the Swim check as a part of that action?
I'm not saying that, because the rules don't require you to pre-declare actions. So you can make the check and then decide which action to take; you've got two options, after all.

Thus if a character is unable to take actions at all, the same character is unable to make Swim checks? That's correct.

What sort of action would it be if the player didn't wish to move through the water? That's undefined by the rules.
It is defined in the rules. It's still the same check, with the same action options. You can tread water (Swim without horizontal progress) as a move action or as a full-round action. These action options specify how far, in terms of your speed, you can progress through the water, but do not require that you move that maximum distance (or any distance at all). But without a successful check, you go underwater.

[Ziegander]

Okay, so moving at 1/4 your speed is a move action, moving at 1/2 your speed is a full-round action. What sort of action is not moving at all? Oh, right, it's not an action. You cannot argue that the Swim check requires an action on the grounds you're attempting to.



Action
A successful Swim check allows you to swim one-quarter of your speed as a move action or one-half your speed as a full-round action.


{Scrubbed} The quoted text says that a successful check allows you to spend an action. It definitely does not say that spending an action allows you to make a Swim check.

@Curmudgeon: At least you attempt to make a stronger argument, but I still do not believe that the swim check is what requires the action. For the simple reason of how the Action entry is written.

[Kalirren]

A much more sensible ruling is that no -maneuvering- is possible. An living, intelligent locomotive gets Tasha'd while traveling at 50 mph. It doesn't just -stop-. Its engine and its brakes break, but the physical object doesn't -stop-, it has to screech and slide to a halt. Tasha's -explicitly- makes a typical target fall prone, but it doesn't -explicitly- make a flying target stall. It can take no actions, so it can't maneuver. Consequently it holds course. So you could cause a dragon to plow into a cliff face with Tasha's For Massive Damage, but not fall into the water unless it were already diving.

[Curmudgeon]

Okay, so moving at 1/4 your speed is a move action
Possibly, though you could also do that as a full-round action.

What sort of action is not moving at all? Oh, right, it's not an action.
Yes, drowning is accomplished with no action. There's no free water treading available in D&D, unless you've got a swim speed.

Personally, I never learned how to tread water with just my legs. I have to swim (back and forth a few inches each stroke) to keep my head above water. And that's without a pack, boots, sword belt, & c.

[Narren]

Yes, drowning is accomplished with no action. There's no free water treading available in D&D, unless you've got a swim speed.

Personally, I never learned how to tread water with just my legs. I have to swim (back and forth a few inches each stroke) to keep my head above water. And that's without a pack, boots, sword belt, & c.

Not to mention the magical compulsion to fall down and heartily giggle.

[Ursus the Grim]

A much more sensible ruling is that no -maneuvering- is possible. An living, intelligent locomotive gets Tasha'd while traveling at 50 mph. It doesn't just -stop-. Its engine and its brakes break, but the physical object doesn't -stop-, it has to screech and slide to a halt. Tasha's -explicitly- makes a typical target fall prone, but it doesn't -explicitly- make a flying target stall. It can take no actions, so it can't maneuver. Consequently it holds course. So you could cause a dragon to plow into a cliff face with Tasha's For Massive Damage, but not fall into the water unless it were already diving.

Except that flying is different than being propelled along tracks. It requires distinct effort on behalf of the flier. Without maneuvering, a creature could not beat its wings, and thus could not maintain lift. Therefore, it would drop. Not straight down, sure, but it would fall.

Of course, this discussion is causing a catgirl genocide. D&D doesn't exactly allow for the laws of momentum in a realistic format, as illustrated by the falling and takeoff points. :smalleek:

[Rubik]

Lucky for my Maximillian, he has a necklace of adaptation.

Being an airhead comes in handy sometimes (even with a 27 Int)!

[ArcanistSupreme]

Back when I was in high school, I spent hours coming up with a special boss fight that took place in a shallow swamp. I meticulously homebrewed each terrifying ability of the monster, and with malicious glee I threw it at the party, ready to watch as it tore them to shreds. Round one, the sorcerer wins initiative and casts hideous laughter. Rounds two through four, my beautiful monster drowned. Then he did the same thing to a nymph, just to be a jerk.

[faceroll]

As for getting into the air, you don't need a run up to fly. Anything with a fly speed can just hop right into the air.

Anything with average maneuverability or better. You still have to worry about minimum forward movement (half speed to stay airborn) and, if you want to climb, you have to move forward 5/10/20 feet for average/poor/clumsy maneuverability.

So a dragon taking off needs to move at least 20 feet forward at ground level before it can begin to ascend, and even then has to move at least half its speed or it crashes next round.

[Socratov]

speaking of the dragon: he does stop.

Tasha's specifically states the target falls prone (emphasis mine).