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Cogidubnus
2011-11-02, 05:29 PM
Disciple of Philoctetes

Philoctetes was the bearer of Heracles’ bow after Heracles death. With it, he became the greatest archer in Greece. But, as he sailed to the Trojan war, a snake bit his heel, and his foot festered. His companions left him behind on the deserted island of Lemnos, unable to bear the sight and smell of the foot, or the horrid fits it inflicted on Philoctetes. 10 years later, at the instructions of an oracle, they returned and tried to persuade him to carry on to Troy with them, where his bow would help them win the war. Philoctetes refused, until divine Heracles appeared to him and promised that his foot would finally be healed at Troy.

Some martial students have studied this man’s life and skills. They have dedicated a bow to Heracles, prayed for insight and skill, and practised every day. Many have lived rugged, hard lives, imitating Philoctetes’ lonely survival on Lemnos. A few gain the attention of a god or divine hero, a few simply power through by practise and skill, but either way, those who succeed become archers almost without peer. A few are even visited by the vision of divine Heracles himself and given the final blessing of this, greatest of mortal archers.

If fitting Heracles into your campaign would ruin the atmosphere, feel free to replace him with any other demigod, with a divine rank of 4 or 5, and ignore fluff references to Philoctetes and Heracles in the class.

Skill Points per level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge: Geography, Nature and Religion (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Use Rope (Dex).

Alignment: Any. Disciples of Philoctetes are martial students and exemplar individuals, but such abilities are not tied to philosophy or moral code.

HD: d8

Starting Wealth: 2d6 x 10gp

N.B. All save DCs are equal to 10 + ½ the Disciple’s HD + their Dexterity modifier, unless otherwise noted.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|Bow of Heracles, Heraclean Exploits, Centaur Hunter

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|Rapid Shot, Gift of Oath

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+3|Passed Through Suffering, Ancestral Relic

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+4 |+1 Arrows of Heracles, Fast Friend

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4 |
+4 |Greek Arms, It’s In How You Aim, Achaean Kleos

6th|
+6|
+2|
+5|
+ 5 |Imbued Arrow of Heracles +1, Specialisation

7th|
+7|
+2|
+ 5 |
+ 5 |Neoptolemus’ Query, Power In The Bow, First Trust of Heracles

8th|
+8|
+2|
+6|
+ 6 | +2 Arrows of Heracles, It Doesn’t Miss

9th|
+9|
+3|
+ 6 |
+ 6 |Faster Friend, Implode

10th|
+10|
+3|
+7|
+ 7 |Unbelievable Resilience, Oathbound, Imbued Arrows of Heracles +2, Greater Achaean Kleos

11th|
+11|
+3|
+ 7 |
+ 7 |By Day By Night Our Arrows Take Flight, Hero-Killer, Commune With Heracles

12th|
+12|
+4|
+8|
+ 8 | +3 Arrows of Heracles, It Never Misses

13th|
+13|
+4|
+ 8 |
+ 8 |Why Aim?, Like Lightning

14th|
+14|
+4|
+9|
+9| Imbued Arrows of Heracles +3, Predicted Shot

15th|
+15|
+5|
+ 9 |
+ 9 |Wounded Fury, Helm-Splitter, Worldwide Achaean Kleos

16th|
+16|
+5|
+10|
+ 10 | +4 Arrows of Heracles, Cripple’s Experience

17th|
+17|
+5|
+ 10 |
+ 10 |Sequential Implosion, Keep Them Back

18th|
+18|
+6|
+11|
+ 11 | Imbued Arrows of Heracles +4, Slayer

19th|
+19|
+6|
+ 11 |
+ 11 |The Cure At Troy, Unswerving As Apollo

20th|
+20|
+7|
+12|
+12|Divine Achaean Kleos, +5 Arrows of Heracles, Visitation of Heracles, Versatile Archer
[/table]

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: The Disciple of Philoctetes is proficient with all simple weapons, all ranged martial weapons, one melee martial weapon and the Greatbow. However, they use the Greatbow to the exclusion of everything else. Disciples of Philoctetes are proficient with light armour, medium armour and shields (except tower shields).

Heraclean Exploits: The Disciple of Philoctetes gains a number of ways to use its bow and a number of abilities it can apply when making ranged attacks. Any of these abilities with (H) after the ability name is a Heraclean Exploit, and no more than one Heraclean Exploit can be used as part of any given attack action.

Bow of Heracles: All Disciples of Philoctetes need a bow to imitate the great bow wielded by Heracles and then Philoctetes. At 1st level, in addition to their starting wealth, the Disciple of Philoctetes receives a masterwork composite greatbow. This greatbow always has a Strength rating equal to the wielder’s Strength modifier.

Centaur Hunter (H): One of the first things Disciples of Philoctetes is how to hunt fast prey, weather to eat or simply to keep them from charging them down. From 1st level, any time a Disciple of Philoctetes makes a ranged attack using their Bow of Heracles, they may choose to aim to cripple their opponent. By subtracting an amount from the damage roll, they can reduce an opponent’s movement speed. Only one form of movement may be effected with a given hit. For every two points of damage sacrificed, the target’s move speed is lowered by 5 feet, to a minimum of 5ft. In addition, if the target fails a Fortitude save, they may not use the Run or Charge actions with that movement type. This condition persists until the target receives healing, either through magical means or by resting, although a successful Heal check (DC = Fortitude save DC) may allow the creature to Charge and Run.

Rapid Shot: At 2nd level, the Disciple of Philoctetes receives Rapid Shot as a bonus feat, except that it may used when taking a standard action or a full-round action to fire a bow.

Gift of Oath: In symbolic imitation of Neoptelemus’ returning of the bow to Philoctetes, each Disciple performs a short (one round) ritual with another’s help upon reaching 2nd level, and then gains the ability call his Bow of Heracles to his hand with a move action from anywhere on the same plane. At 10th level, this effect may cross planar boundaries. This is effected as though by a Miracle, and as such crosses barriers against magical or extra-planar intrusion.

Passed Through Suffering: Disciples of Philoctetes learn to endure afflictions as he did. From 3rd level, whenever the Disciple of Philoctetes fails a Fortitude saving throw against an effect that has a duration or an ongoing effect, he may attempt a second saving throw to remove the condition the following round, at the same DC. This ability improves at 7th level, allowing the Disciple to attempt to remove an effect that causes the paralysed, nauseated or sickened conditions.

Ancestral Relic: At 3rd level, the Disciple of Philoctetes gains the Ancestral Relic feat, applying to their Bow of Heracles.

I felt this was both thematic and would allow the Disciple to always keep control of their bow, which they need to have most of their class features.

Arrows of Heracles: From 4th level, any arrow the Disciple of Philoctetes fires from his Bow of Heracles gains an enhancement bonus equal to ¼ of his class level. This does not stack with any enhancement bonus the arrow may already have.

Fast Friend: A Disciple of Philoctetes knows the value of sticking by their friends. From 4th level, as a part of any swift, move, standard or full-round action, the Disciple may declare to keep an eye on their allies. Opponents get a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls against the Disciple, but if an enemy within 30ft makes a melee or ranged attack with one of their allies as the target, or uses a spell, spell-like, extraordinary or supernatural ability, which would negatively affect one of their allies, the Disciple may make an Attack of Opportunity against them using their Bow of Heracles. This attack is resolved before the enemy completes their action. This uses up one of the Disciple’s Attacks of Opportunity for this round. The Disciple may not use this ability against an attack that only targets themselves. As a ranged attack, this in turn provokes Attacks of Opportunity.

Greek Arms: From 5th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes is sufficiently practised in their style of fighting that they may use a bow while using a light shield without penalty.

It’s In How You Aim: From 5th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes may add their Dexterity modifier in addition to their Strength modifier on damage rolls with their Bow of Heracles.

Achaean Kleos: At 5th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes begins to earn renown for his skills as an archer. At the start of each day, the number of uses of Achaean Kleos the Disciple of Philoctetes has resets to one. Achaean Kleos may be used in a number of ways, but the only option available to a 5th level Disciple of Philoctetes is to add 1d6 to the result of any d20 roll. This must be done before the roll is made. Achaean Kleos may only ever be used once for any given action (this will become relevant as the Disciple gains more uses of Achaean Kleos as they level up).

If your campaign uses Action Points, Achaean Kleos uses may be treated as Action Points for abilities that require the expenditure of them.

Imbued Arrow of Heracles: At 6th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes gains the ability to add various magical bonuses to their arrows when fired from their Bow of Heracles, selected from the list below. All arrows fired with any given action must have the same bonuses applied to them. To begin with, these bonuses may not have a greater total than +1, but at 10th, 14th and 18th level this amount increases by 1.

Bonuses list:

Flaming (+1)
Frost (+1)
Corrosive (+1)
Shocking (+1)
Screaming (+1)
Magebane (+1)
Keen (+1)
Shattermantle (+1)
Vicious (+1)
Holy (+2)
Unholy (+2)
Axiomatic (+2)
Anarchic (+2)
Psibane (+2)
Wounding (+2)
Speed (+3)
Implacable (+3)
Cursespewing (+3)


Specialisation: At 6th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes gains either Shot On The Run or Improved Rapid Shot (no penalties from using Rapid Shot) as a bonus feat even if they do not possess the prerequisites.

Neoptolemus’ Query: Odysseus knew not to hope to fight Philoctetes, even in melee. You should know the same of his Disciples. From 7th level, once per encounter when the Disciple of Philoctetes takes damage from a melee attack, he may instantly make a ranged touch attack with their Bow of Heracles against his attacker. If it hits, this touch attack deals damage equal to the damage dealt to the Disciple of Philoctetes. The Disciple may use this ability even if the attack renders them unconscious, paralyses them, kills them, or would otherwise normally render them unable to attack, as they move so fast their attack is made before their body ceases to obey.

First Trust of Heracles: For following in the footsteps of his friend and companion, Heracles grants you immunity to disease and poison.

Power in the Bow: From 7th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes can add half his Strength modifier to his attack rolls with the Bow of Heracles, and adds 1.5x his Strength modifier on damage rolls with it.

DMs, I hope to see Good Disciples using this ability to die to kill the Big Bad.

It Doesn’t Miss: Heracles’ bow, famously, never strayed from its true target. The Disciples of Philoctetes slowly imbue some of this same infallibility into their weapons. From 8th level, all arrows fired by the Disciple of Philoctetes ignore Deflection bonuses to AC. In addition, once per encounter for one round, the Disciple may ignore all cover possessed by the target, including total cover, as long as they have a means of knowing the target is there.

Faster Friend: At 9th level, the range of the Disciple’s Fast Friend ability extends to 60ft.

Implode (H): From 9th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes can, once per encounter, make an arrow fired from their Bow of Heracles strike so hard that it pulls the air and even the fabric of reality in around it. This effect may be used as part of a full attack, but only the first arrow fired is affected. Every enemy within 30ft of the target suffers untyped damage that is not subject to damage reduction equal to the damage dealt by the arrow (including benefits from precision damage, enchantments and so forth).

Unbelievable Resilience: By 10th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes has mastered the resilience that kept their patron alive, crippled, on an island for ten years. They gain Steadfast Determination as a bonus feat, even if they do not meet the prerequisites. In addition, whenever an attack would reduce a Disciple of Philoctetes below 1 hit point, they continue acting as though they still had 1 hit point until their actual hit points becomes equal to -10 or –their Con score, whichever is lower.

Oathbound: From 10th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes may teleport to his Bow of Heracles as a move action, instead of using his Gift of Oath ability to bring it to him, if he so wishes. Like Gift of Oath, this ability is affected as though by a Miracle, allowing the Disciple to cross through planar barriers and defences against teleportation.

This is a very powerful form of teleportation, but it is rather limited in that you can only use it to go where your bow is, and if you don’t have your bow, most of your class features become useless. Also, you can’t bring anyone with you. I see this as being very situational, but rather fun when it is. Teleport out of someone’s dungeon and into their armoury? Yes. Throw your bow off a cliff and teleport after it to avoid certain death? Hell Yes.

Greater Achaean Kleos: At 10th level, when a Disciple of Philoctetes uses Achaean Kleos to improve a d20 roll, they now add 2d6, rather than one, to the result. In addition, they may expend a use of Achaean Kleos to cast either Heroism or Greater Magic Weapon as spell-like abilities, with a Caster Level equal to their class level. In addition, once per round, if the Disciple of Philoctetes misses on an attack with their Bow of Heracles, they gain another use of Achaean Kleos.

By Day, By Night, Our Arrows Take Flight: At 11th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes comes ever closer to Philoctetes’ perfect aim, and gains the ability to ignore miss chances of 20% or less when using their Bow of Heracles.

Hero-Killer (H): Philoctetes’ performance at Troy was famous, his arrows cutting down many of the greatest heroes from afar. From 11th level, when the Disciple of Philoctetes makes a full-attack (or uses Manyshot), he may elect to fire fewer arrows than his maximum. For each arrow that is not fired, all other shots in that full-attack gain a +1 bonus to their attack roll. In addition, calculate the maximum damage the arrow could have dealt (including precision damage and weapon enhancements) and divide it in half. The first arrow in the full attack to hit adds this amount to its damage roll. If this ability is used in conjunction with Rapid Shot or Manyshot, the Disciple of Philoctetes must still take the penalties to attack rolls to use the feats, even if he opts to not actually fire some of the arrows gained in this way.

Commune With Heracles: Heracles is willing to aid those who learn from Philoctetes’ example, just as he once stepped in to help Philoctetes himself choose the right path. He grants you the ability to use Commune 1/day as a spell-like ability to ask Heracles’ advice (Heracles has a Divine Rank of 5, so if he isn’t included in your campaign setting, feel free to substitute another powerful demigod).

It Never Misses: At 12th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes’ “It Doesn’t Miss” class feature improves. All of the Disciple’s attacks with the Bow of Heracles now ignore cover, although total cover may still only be ignored for one round per encounter.

Why Aim? (H): At 13th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes gains the ability to, rather than aiming at a target, to aim at an area. As a standard action, select one contiguous 5ft square for each class level you have. These must all be within the first range increment of your Bow of Heracles. Any enemy within or moving through one of these squares provokes a ranged Attack of Opportunity if the action would normally provoke an attack of opportunity from an enemy within melee reach.

Like Lightning: Drawing, knocking and aiming an arrow faster before an enemy even knows he’s going to shoot just comes naturally to a Disciple of Philoctetes. From 13th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes is able to shoot arrows out of the air. He gains the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, but only while wielding their Bow of Heracles (instead of while having one hand free), even if they don’t have the prerequisites. This ability serves as all the prerequisites for the Epic Feats Exceptional Deflection and Infinite Deflection, aside from needing to be an Epic-level character.

I nearly called this ability “Can’t Touch This”...Sigh.

Predicted Shot: At 14th level, it is not simply that the Disciple of Philoctetes can predict how his opponent moves. His arrows are predicted, fated, to strike their targets, and no amount of ducking or weaving can stop that. The Disciple of Philoctetes treats all enemies as flat-footed for the purposes of attacks with his Bow of Heracles.

Wounded Fury (H): Philoctetes’ rage from his time as a cripple has taught you that injury can make a man deadly. From 15th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes may sacrifice a number of hit points, not exceeding three times his class level, to add an equal amount to the damage of one successful hit in a round. The decision to do this may be made after the attack and damage rolls have been made, but it may only be used once per round.

Helm-Splitter (H): From 15th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes may fire a single arrow at an enemy with their Bow of Heracles, striking them on their head, breaking helmets, cracking skulls and slashing eyes. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and in addition, forces the target to make a Fortitude save or be blinded for one day and Stunned for one minute. If this save is successful, they must still pass another save or be Stunned for one minute. This ability is a standard action and functions once per encounter.

Worldwide Achaean Kleos: At 15th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes’ Achaean Kleos ability improves further, allowing him to add 3d6 to the result of a single d20 roll by expending a use of Achaean Kleos, rather than 2d6. In addition, the Disciple adds the following spells to the list of spell-like abilities he may cast with a use of Achaean Kleos: Teleport, Plane Shift, Overland Flight, True Seeing, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door. At the beginning of each day, their number of uses of Achaean Kleos resets to two, rather than one.

Cripple’s Experience (H): A Disciple of Philoctetes slowly learns to pass on their patron’s affliction to those they shoot. From 16th level, whenever the Disciple of Philoctetes hits an enemy with a ranged attack using their Bow of Heracles, they may choose to reduce the damage dealt by 10 to inflict one point of ability penalty to their target’s Strength or Dexterity score. This ability may not reduce a target’s Strength or Dexterity below 1, but does stack with itself. This ability does not affect targets immune to critical hits unless the Disciple of Philoctetes has a way of effecting them with critical hits and precision damage.

Sequential Implosion (H): At 17th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes’ Implode ability improves. The Disciple is now strong enough to effect every arrow in a full attack when he uses his Implode ability. It may still only be used once per encounter.

Keep Them Back: From 17th level, whenever an enemy moves with 15’ of a Disciple of Philoctetes in a manner that would normally provoke Attacks of Opportunity, the Disciple may make an Attack of Opportunity against them using his Bow of Heracles. If it hits, the Disciple of Philoctetes may elect to, instead of dealing damage as normal, halt the target’s movement if the target fails a Reflex saving throw equal to the damage the arrow would have dealt. This decision must be made before rolling damage.

Slayer (H): By 18th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes can almost guarantee death and destruction to any target they aim at. Once per encounter, before firing his Bow of Heracles at a target, the Disciple of Philoctetes may declare he is aiming to slay them. If the attack hits (if used as part of a full attack, the first arrow is always the attack used for this effect), the target must make a Fortitude save or be torn apart by the force of the shot, leaving nothing but shreds behind. This ability may also effect constructs, undead and other creatures immune to effects requiring a Fortitude save. If the save is successful, the target still takes damage from being hit by the arrow.

The Cure At Troy: Every Disciple of Philoctetes knows that, ultimately, the gods cure illness when you fulfil your purpose, and like Philoctetes, their purpose is destruction. From 19th level, for every 5 points of damage the Disciple of Philoctetes deals in a round, they heal one point of hit point damage. For every 100 points of damage they deal in a round, they gain the benefits of a Restoration spell, cast at their character level. For every 200 points of damage dealt in a round the Disciple gains the benefits of a Heal spell, except that it does not restore lost hit points, with a caster level of their class level. None of these are actually spells, and so bypass Spell Resistance, Magic Immunity, and so forth.

Unswerving As Apollo: The Disciple of Philoctetes now ignores all miss chances from all sources when using their Bow of Heracles, almost mastering the perfection Philoctetes possessed.

Divine Achaean Kleos: At 20th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes is known throughout the world as an archer without peer. Even the gods respect his skill. Everyone, even his enemies, finds themselves willing his shots to find their mark.
The Disciple may expend a use of Achaean Kleos to achieve on e of the following effects, in addition to those already gained: to treat the damage dealt by a single attack as the maximum it can be. This must be done before the damage is rolled or, by expending two uses of Achaean Kleos, to cast any of the following spells as spell-like abilities with a caster level equal to your class level: Greater Teleport, Greater Plane Shift, Greater Heroism, Repulsion.

In addition, every time the Disciple of Philoctetes misses with an attack using its Bow of Heracles, it gains another use of Achaean Kleos, with no limit on how many uses may be gained per round, as the world and the gods strive to help them succeed and prove their glory.

Visitation of Heracles: The greatest of the Disciples of Philoctetes are visited by divine Heracles, who remembers Philoctetes’ loyalty to him, and rewards those who have truly followed in his footsteps – or crawl-tracks. He grants you the ability to cast Greater Visage of the Deity as a spell-like ability once per day per 7 HD you possess.

Versatile Archer: At 20th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes gains an additional use per encounter of Neoptelemus' Query, It Doesn't Miss, Implode, Helm-Splitter and Slayer. He also gains one additional use of Commune per day.

Changelog:
3/11/11 - Made changes in response to jiriku's comments. Introduced idea of Heraclean Exploits. Reduced benefits granted by Unswerving as Apollo, removed ability to ignore immunities to various abilities.

4/11/11 – Spread out the benefits from Visitation of Heracles and Achaean Kleos to improve the class’ versatility. Also removed the ability to make a single ranged attack a touch attack.
Added Versatile Archer ability.

6/11/11 - Realised a buckler can be used with a bow of crossbow with no penalty anyway, so changed Greek Arms to a light shield.
Changed "Why Aim?" to allow AoOs instead of auto-hitting. It needs a new name now, though. Will work on that...

jiriku
2011-11-02, 07:04 PM
Very stylish. I like it. Overall I'm concerned that you're making it rather too efficient at damage-dealing and not versatile enough to contribute when the bow isn't needed (although Oathbound offers interesting possibilities). Thus, you'll end most combats almost before they start, then sit around for an hour waiting for another combat, which you'll also end almost before it starts. A more well-rounded class would probably be more fun to play.

It needs a skill list and skill points.

Greek Arms - This seems... less than logical. I'd suggest increasing the benefits for using a buckler, rather than allowing a character to use three hands-worth of gear in two hands. It can have the same mechanical effect, but makes more sense.

Neoptolemus’ Query - This is an extremely powerful defense for the level. Basically, any melee creature with fewer hit points than you is going to kill itself attempting to attack you, and you aren't even taking any actions to do this. I'd recommend that you expend attacks of opportunity and make normal attack rolls to do this, and that it also be made available no earlier than 12th level, even with the nerfs. It's so good, it needs to expend some kind of limited resource like AoOs, and you're already ridiculously accurate, so making touch attacks is overkill.

Hero-Killer - I would be concerned about the possibility for abuse with this, as it's granting the ability to essentially roll up all the damage for your full attack into one attack roll, made with a bonus on top of your highest base attack bonus, and (due to other class features), probably only missing on a 1. When combined with implode and a splitting bow, you're looking at a 1/encounter bomb at 11th level that deals effectively 14x weapon damage, untyped with no save, to all foes in a 20' burst. This is mailman-level nova damage, and will end many (most) encounters before they start.

Why Aim? - In a mass battle with mobile enemies (such as when a squad of troops is charging through the archer's attack zone, it's possible for the disciple to actually hit more targets than he's firing arrows. For example, if you fire 13 arrows into 13 squares, and 20 foes rush through that space... some of your arrows were doing "double duty".

Predicted Shot - It's bad form to create attacks that trump all defenses against them. Uncanny dodge is an effective defense, and you should let it play. Making an accurate archer is a worthy goal, but I don't think you can make a balanced class that always hits and automatically trumps all defenses.

Helm-Splitter - As written, this only stuns targets who are NOT blinded. Intentional?

Cripple's Experience - Much like Predicted Shot, I'd recommend against building an ability that trumps immunities against itself. If you deal ability damage, creatures that are immune to ability damage should be immune to your ability damage. If you want to affect creatures who are immune to ability damage, make it drain instead. If you want to affect creatures who are immune to drain, make it a penalty.

Sequential Implosion - This ability doesn't do anything you couldn't already do with Implosion+Hero Killer six levels ago.

Keep Them Back - This needs to involve some sort of contested roll, as the ability to automatically halt a character's movement is easily breakable. For example, if you face some kind of ungodly epic monster that you can't even harm with your arrows, it makes little sense that you should be able to automatically lock it down with your harmless little darts.

Slayer - I'd suggest that the arrow should deal normal damage on a successful save. You've still be shot with an arrow, after all.

The Cure At Troy - A heal spell with a caster level of 1? Is that a typo? I'd suggest increasing the damage requirement for restoration and heal, as it's fairly trivial for a 19th level character to deal 100 damage every round, or even more than once per round. You probably don't want the disciple popping 20+ free restorations and 10+ free heals on himself in every combat. I'd suggest that you double the thresholds. Alternately you might quadruple the requirements, but allow the disciple to keep a running total of damage dealt through the entire combat.

Unswerving as Apollo - I think this goes too far in accuracy optimization. You're stacking a powerful magic weapon and +7-equivalent magic arrows on a full base attack, Dex-primary class, then ignoring deflection, Dexterity, dodge, luck, insight, and cover bonuses to AC, ignoring concealment, total concealment, and incorporeality, all other miss chances, and frequently ignoring armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses to AC as well. It's too much. It's basically a stealth-true strike on all of your attacks, except that it stacks with true strike.


Achaean Kleos, Visitation of Heracles - I'm concerned about the free touch attacks for the same reason that Unswerving as Apollo was a concern for me, but most of the other abilities I'd encourage you to place much, much sooner. This is a badly-needed shot in the arm for the character's versatility, but it comes much too late to be any good. You'd improve the class if you'd dump half the archery-related features at lower levels, break these capstones apart into several abilities, and distribute them throughout the lower levels.

Cogidubnus
2011-11-02, 07:18 PM
I agree with most of what you've said, actually. A lot of stuff that's become too much is to do with flavour. I'll make changes tomorrow.

Cogidubnus
2011-11-03, 12:46 PM
Greek Arms - This seems... less than logical. I'd suggest increasing the benefits for using a buckler, rather than allowing a character to use three hands-worth of gear in two hands. It can have the same mechanical effect, but makes more sense.

Changed it to a buckler.


Neoptolemus’ Query - This is an extremely powerful defense for the level. Basically, any melee creature with fewer hit points than you is going to kill itself attempting to attack you, and you aren't even taking any actions to do this. I'd recommend that you expend attacks of opportunity and make normal attack rolls to do this, and that it also be made available no earlier than 12th level, even with the nerfs. It's so good, it needs to expend some kind of limited resource like AoOs, and you're already ridiculously accurate, so making touch attacks is overkill.

Gah, that was meant to be 1/encounter.


Hero-Killer - I would be concerned about the possibility for abuse with this, as it's granting the ability to essentially roll up all the damage for your full attack into one attack roll, made with a bonus on top of your highest base attack bonus, and (due to other class features), probably only missing on a 1. When combined with implode and a splitting bow, you're looking at a 1/encounter bomb at 11th level that deals effectively 14x weapon damage, untyped with no save, to all foes in a 20' burst. This is mailman-level nova damage, and will end many (most) encounters before they start.

I've included a clause about "Heraclean Exploits", which stops a lot of abilities being stacked with each other, much like many ToB manoeuvres. Please have a look and see if you think all of them out to be unstackable, or whether I've missed any.


Why Aim? - In a mass battle with mobile enemies (such as when a squad of troops is charging through the archer's attack zone, it's possible for the disciple to actually hit more targets than he's firing arrows. For example, if you fire 13 arrows into 13 squares, and 20 foes rush through that space... some of your arrows were doing "double duty".


It makes more sense now.


Predicted Shot - It's bad form to create attacks that trump all defenses against them. Uncanny dodge is an effective defense, and you should let it play. Making an accurate archer is a worthy goal, but I don't think you can make a balanced class that always hits and automatically trumps all defenses.

Dispensing with the fluff of never missing, I've removed the clause about Uncanny Dodge.


Helm-Splitter - As written, this only stuns targets who are NOT blinded. Intentional?

No, thanks for picking up on that. Though for many enemies blinded is worse than stunned.


Cripple's Experience - Much like Predicted Shot, I'd recommend against building an ability that trumps immunities against itself. If you deal ability damage, creatures that are immune to ability damage should be immune to your ability damage. If you want to affect creatures who are immune to ability damage, make it drain instead. If you want to affect creatures who are immune to drain, make it a penalty.

Made it a penalty.


Sequential Implosion - This ability doesn't do anything you couldn't already do with Implosion+Hero Killer six levels ago.

They don't stack any more, so problem fixed?


Keep Them Back - This needs to involve some sort of contested roll, as the ability to automatically halt a character's movement is easily breakable. For example, if you face some kind of ungodly epic monster that you can't even harm with your arrows, it makes little sense that you should be able to automatically lock it down with your harmless little darts.

Reflex Save = damage that would have been dealt. Appropriate?


Slayer - I'd suggest that the arrow should deal normal damage on a successful save. You've still be shot with an arrow, after all.

Alright. This was my first thought, I just didn't want it to out-do magical death effects too much.


The Cure At Troy - A heal spell with a caster level of 1? Is that a typo? I'd suggest increasing the damage requirement for restoration and heal, as it's fairly trivial for a 19th level character to deal 100 damage every round, or even more than once per round. You probably don't want the disciple popping 20+ free restorations and 10+ free heals on himself in every combat. I'd suggest that you double the thresholds. Alternately you might quadruple the requirements, but allow the disciple to keep a running total of damage dealt through the entire combat.

I'll increase the damage requirement. The Heal isn't a typo, it was just an easy way of not giving them massive healing. I'll change it to a clause that says it doesn't heal any hit points.


Unswerving as Apollo - I think this goes too far in accuracy optimization. You're stacking a powerful magic weapon and +7-equivalent magic arrows on a full base attack, Dex-primary class, then ignoring deflection, Dexterity, dodge, luck, insight, and cover bonuses to AC, ignoring concealment, total concealment, and incorporeality, all other miss chances, and frequently ignoring armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses to AC as well. It's too much. It's basically a stealth-true strike on all of your attacks, except that it stacks with true strike.


Allowed Luck and Insight bonuses to AC again.


Achaean Kleos, Visitation of Heracles - I'm concerned about the free touch attacks for the same reason that Unswerving as Apollo was a concern for me, but most of the other abilities I'd encourage you to place much, much sooner. This is a badly-needed shot in the arm for the character's versatility, but it comes much too late to be any good. You'd improve the class if you'd dump half the archery-related features at lower levels, break these capstones apart into several abilities, and distribute them throughout the lower levels.

The touch attacks aren't too bad, simply cos you only get one by expending a point. I think what I'll do is introduce the abilities earlier on in the class, then stagger their improvement throughout, granting 1 point of Achaean Kleos with no way of gaining more to begin with, then adding more of the uses and abilities on as the class advances. If you've got any critique before I do that (gonna take a short break first) please go ahead.

jiriku
2011-11-04, 04:38 PM
No, thanks for picking up on that. Though for many enemies blinded is worse than stunned.

But blinded and stunned! Now that's a crunchy debuff! :smallbiggrin:


Reflex Save = damage that would have been dealt. Appropriate?

Sounds good to me. It's going to be a difficult save DC and one that's easily optimized, but now we're looking at a contested roll, so the skill of both the attacker and defender can come into play.


I'll increase the damage requirement. The Heal isn't a typo, it was just an easy way of not giving them massive healing. I'll change it to a clause that says it doesn't heal any hit points.

Oh, I get it, so you're just looking for condition removal from the heal. That makes sense, since you're already getting healing. As an alternative to a CL1 heal, you might consider panacea (SC 152) at a more normal CL. It cures a laundry list of conditions, similar to heal, but removes fear and paralysis instead of feeblemind and insanity, and the healing amount is quite small at any caster level (max 1d8+20). Since fear and paralysis are both more common conditions and more crippling to an archer (plus paralysis is picking on your weak Fort save), you might find panacea slightly more useful overall.

Some other thoughts that have occurred to me:

How would Helm-Splitter work against a creature with more than one head, like a hydra or ettin, or that has eyes distributed over its body, like a beholder or gibbering mouther? Does it function against creatures that are immune to critical hits, like an iron golem or a zombie?

For helm-splitter, it seems a bit of a bummer that a creature with a strong Fort save could just shut down the attack. Since you're stacking conditions already, it might be interesting to make this more like a single-target holy word with multiple conditions inflicted according to hit dice, no save allowed. That's a powerful attack, but less powerful than many 7th and 8th level spells. Used once per encounter, with some sort of applicable defense like fortification, I'd think it wouldn't be too overpowered. Still, this is a pretty significant departure from your original vision for the ability, so I'd understand why you might prefer it in its current form.

I notice you omitted Profession from the skill list. Since many prominent Greek heroes were proficient sailors, you might wish to add this in to provide in-class access to Profession (sailor), which is needed to operate a sailing ship. Also, depending on the importance of Heracles to the class and the amount of time since his mortal life, Knowledge (religion) and/or Knowledge (history) might be appropriate as well.

There is a blank line after level 15 in your table.

The vicious and wounding special properties might be good additions to the imbued arrow options.

Cogidubnus
2011-11-04, 04:49 PM
How would Helm-Splitter work against a creature with more than one head, like a hydra or ettin, or that has eyes distributed over its body, like a beholder or gibbering mouther?

That's a very good question xD the Helm-Splitting aspect is mostly fluff-based (breaking the horns off enemies' helmets is a mark of great strength in the Iliad) but as I'm using the fluff, I ought to consider that. I'll work on it.


For helm-splitter, it seems a bit of a bummer that a creature with a strong Fort save could just shut down the attack. Since you're stacking conditions already, it might be interesting to make this more like a single-target holy word with multiple conditions inflicted according to hit dice, no save allowed. That's a powerful attack, but less powerful than many 7th and 8th level spells. Used once per encounter, with some sort of applicable defense like fortification, I'd think it wouldn't be too overpowered. Still, this is a pretty significant departure from your original vision for the ability, so I'd understand why you might prefer it in its current form.

Actually, I think I prefer your idea. A departure from the usual save-or-suck might be quite nice. Only problem is, most monstrous enemies have many more HD than PCs do character levels, so how best to set the HD requirements without it allowing you to auto-cripple humanoid NPCs?


I notice you omitted Profession from the skill list. Since many prominent Greek heroes were proficient sailors, you might wish to add this in to provide in-class access to Profession (sailor), which is needed to operate a sailing ship. Also, depending on the importance of Heracles to the class and the amount of time since his mortal life, Knowledge (religion) and/or Knowledge (history) might be appropriate as well.


I have inserted Know: Religion, but left out Profession to represent the part of the Disciple's training where he imitates Philoctetes and separates himself from society (albeit voluntarily, not forcibly), and as such does not learn the professions usual to people, instead gaining Survival as a skill.


There is a blank line after level 15 in your table.

Stupid spaces just get in there randomly. Still don't know how. Thanks for pointing it out.


The vicious and wounding special properties might be good additions to the imbued arrow options.

Duly included :smallsmile:

jojolagger
2011-11-04, 06:48 PM
Worldwide Achaean Kleos: At 15th level, the Disciple of Philoctetes’ Achaean Kleos ability improves further, allowing him to add 3d6 to the result of a single d20 roll by expending a use of Achaean Kleos, rather than 2d6. <snip>

Divine Achaean Kleos: <snip>
Finally, the amount the Disciple of Philoctetes may add to a single d20 roll with a use of Achaean Kleos is increased to 3d6.
so it goes from 3d6 to 3d6? :smallamused:


Why Aim? (H): <snip> Any enemies entering one of these squares is automatically struck by a shot from the Bow of Heracles<snip>
Auto-hit is a bit unfair. Maybe make the disciple roll to hit.


Unbelievable Resilience: <snip> In addition, whenever an attack would reduce a Disciple of Philoctetes below 1 hit point, they continue acting as though they still had 1 hit point until their actual hit points becomes equal to -10 or –their Con score, whichever is lower.
Wait, so If I have this an 30 CON, I can keep acting as if I had 1 hp until i hit -30? I don't have much complaint, but it makes spells that bring them back at 0 hp/-1 and stable far better.

Overall I like it, just noting a few things that stood out to me.

Cogidubnus
2011-11-04, 09:48 PM
so it goes from 3d6 to 3d6?

Oopla, that text should have been removed. Thanks for catching that.


Auto-hit is a bit unfair. Maybe make the disciple roll to hit.

But, the enemy do have to move into the area, so the Disciple can end up wasting an action purely because the enemy avoided moving into the squares.


Wait, so If I have this an 30 CON, I can keep acting as if I had 1 hp until i hit -30? I don't have much complaint, but it makes spells that bring them back at 0 hp/-1 and stable far better.

Yes, that was the intention. I've seen it as a better alternative to Diehard a couple of times, and liked the idea. By the time you can get a Con score high enough for it to be significantly larger than -10, though, your enemies will be dealing upwards of 100 damage a round at the absolute least, so there's still a good chance you'll be dropped immediately. It just adds a tiny bit of a safety net.

jojolagger
2011-11-04, 10:08 PM
But, the enemy do have to move into the area, so the Disciple can end up wasting an action purely because the enemy avoided moving into the squares.

In a 10 ft. wide hallway, at the level after you get it, a 35 ft. stretch becomes 7 insta-hit arrows and 7 more attack arrows the enemy needs to go through to get to you. Consider that in many cases the opponent doesn't know your going to do this or has to move through those squares.

mootoall
2011-11-05, 10:30 AM
I've only given the class a brief read-through, but are there any abilities that allow a ranged power attack? If not, I'd recommend it. Two and a half stats to damage is nice, but power attack and charging multipliers trump it badly.

Cogidubnus
2011-11-05, 10:59 AM
I've only given the class a brief read-through, but are there any abilities that allow a ranged power attack? If not, I'd recommend it. Two and a half stats to damage is nice, but power attack and charging multipliers trump it badly.

Ranged Power Attack isn't in there. There are several reasons. Firstly, it feels a bit like a generic ability every archer class seems to get, secondly because it doesn't actually go with the class feel. Thirdly, there is a Pathfinder feat (often homebrewed into 3.5) for Ranged Power Attack anyway. I think it's called Deadly Aim or somesuch. Also, unlike most Leap Attackers, this class allows you to debuff or save-or-die your enemies, so it has some different versatility.

jiriku
2011-11-09, 01:16 PM
Actually, I think I prefer your idea. A departure from the usual save-or-suck might be quite nice. Only problem is, most monstrous enemies have many more HD than PCs do character levels, so how best to set the HD requirements without it allowing you to auto-cripple humanoid NPCs?

Well, the ability is conceptually intended for humanoids anyhow, right? I'd say just balance it around the assumption of a creature with HD approximately equal to CR, and accept that helmet smasher isn't of use against creatures with massive HD.

jiriku
2011-11-09, 01:17 PM
Actually, I think I prefer your idea. A departure from the usual save-or-suck might be quite nice. Only problem is, most monstrous enemies have many more HD than PCs do character levels, so how best to set the HD requirements without it allowing you to auto-cripple humanoid NPCs?

Well, the ability is conceptually intended for humanoids anyhow, right? I'd say just balance it around the assumption of a creature with HD approximately equal to CR, and accept that helmet smasher isn't of use against creatures with massive HD. Or simply add a category of "HD > Class level" and grant some minor debuff for that category, so that it's useful against all comers to at leat a minimal degree, but really effective against creatures of HD <= class level.

Re'ozul
2012-01-21, 03:39 PM
This class is awesome. I am currently making a character with it.

Due to this however, I have a question.
Does "Power in the Bow" stack with the normal Strenght bonus to damage or does it replace it? (I assume the latter)

Cogidubnus
2012-02-24, 11:33 AM
This class is awesome. I am currently making a character with it.

Due to this however, I have a question.
Does "Power in the Bow" stack with the normal Strenght bonus to damage or does it replace it? (I assume the latter)

It was indeed intended to replace it. Sorry about the slow answer, been off the forums for a few months. Haven't been well.