school of magic question

[leegi0n]

So...here's a question for all you energy-slingers....

If there was only one school allowed for any caster to have access to, which one would you want it to be and why?

personally...I vote, evocation.

[JaronK]

Illusion, because then I'd be a Shadowcraft Mage and have plenty of magic to work with. Probably a Gnome Illusionist/Shadowcraft Mage thingy. That gives me all the flexibility I'd ever need (including far superior blasting to Evocation), and it's just plain fun.

JaronK

[Diefje]

Conjuration for the win. Illusion for the lulz.

[leegi0n]

Illusion, because then I'd be a Shadowcraft Mage and have plenty of magic to work with. Probably a Gnome Illusionist/Shadowcraft Mage thingy. That gives me all the flexibility I'd ever need (including far superior blasting to Evocation), and it's just plain fun.

JaronK

I've seen people mention this "shadowcraft mage" what's that all about and how is it that it would provide uber blasting power? would it translate to the world of rays?

[JaronK]

I've seen people mention this "shadowcraft mage" what's that all about and how is it that it would provide uber blasting power? would it translate to the world of rays?

It's in Races of Stone. The class lets you use Silent Image as though it were Shadow Evocation/Conjuration, with a reality rate based on the level of the spell (10% per level of the spell, plus a 20% bonus). It also gives you a few other fun illusion powers (like always on concealment and extended illusions).

Combo this with Earth Spell and Heighten Spell, plus Residual Metamagic, Arcane Thesis (Silent Image), and Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell), plus the metamagics of your choice (I prefer Echoing and Twin).

Now, you can use Silent Image to duplicate any Evocation, Conjuration Creation, or Conjuration Summoning spell. That alone is amazing, because it takes a Standard Action to cast the spell and has no component costs (it's just Silent Image), so you can cast Minor or Major Creation as a standard action to instant kill anyone with Black Lotus Poison (buckets of it!) or similar tactics. Plus spells like True Creation become amazing. Furthermore, because of the combo of Earth Spell and Arcane Thesis, and the fact that Silent Image is a 0 level spell for Gnome Illusionists (ACF), you get to add +3+Spell Level to the CL of all such spells. This makes your spells a LOT stronger. Added bonus: you cast all such spells with a spell slot one lower than normal... and if you cast two spells in a row, the second one takes a 0 level slot base (due to Residual Metamagic). Plus all your metamagics other than Heighten cost one less, making spells like Twin Spell a lot more attractive.

And of course since you're just casting Silent Image, you practically cast spontaneously.

So yeah, it trumps everything else (or at least nearly so) as far as single schools go if you do this. No Planar Binding loops of course, but you have so many other options...

EDIT: Since you asked about rays, let's play with Polar Ray. We have a 13th level Gnome Illusionist/Shadowcraft Mage. He's got Spell Focus: Illusion, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Heighten Spell, Arcane Thesis: Silent Image, Residual Metamagic, Easy Metamagic: Heighten Spell, Twin Spell (two flaws, one Wizard bonus feat). Now, an Evoker couldn't even cast this spell, because it's an 8th level spell. However, our SCM just has to get Silent Image to be a 9th level spell and he can cast it. So, it starts as a 0 level spell. Because of Easy Metamagic: Heighten Spell he can heighten it to 8th level with only a +7 adjustment, and then Earth Spell makes it a 9th level spell. It's now got a +11 CL adjustment, because SCMs are awesome that way (and because of Arcane Thesis). So now, assuming no other CL bonuses, he's got a CL of 24. Also, this spell has 110% reality (spell level * 10 + 20), so if they pass their will save they actually take even more damage than normal (take that, Monk!). This spell is only resisted by spell resistance... but our CL is so high we don't care. It does 24d6 damage with a 7th level spell slot. But wait, we have Residual Metamagic, so next round we get to heighten Silent Image for free. Let's shoot them again with our Polar Ray, shall we? This time let's twin it at a +3 cost... so it takes a level 3 spell slot (remember, it started as level 0, and Arcane Thesis reduced our cost). So now we hit them for another 24d6 damage... twice, for 48d6. And if we want to do this again, next round we get to Twin our spell for free (thanks, Residual Metamagic!), so all we have to do is heighten it, and we do another 48d6 damage. And why not do this next round, heightened for free, so we use a third level slot to do another 48d6?

So now we've done 168d6 damage for two 7th level slots and two third level slots, in four rounds, with no save (technically, if they made their save they'd actually take 174d6), and SR just isn't going to help them. And we can split that damage up into 24d6 damage chunks. Note that we didn't have to keep using Polar Ray... we could have varied it up with any other spells we wanted.

So why did you want Evocation again?

JaronK

[Morph Bark]

Universal. :smallamused:

[leegi0n]

It's in Races of Stone. The class lets you use Silent Image as though it were Shadow Evocation/Conjuration, with a reality rate based on the level of the spell (10% per level of the spell, plus a 20% bonus). It also gives you a few other fun illusion powers (like always on concealment and extended illusions).

Combo this with Earth Spell and Heighten Spell, plus Residual Metamagic, Arcane Thesis (Silent Image), and Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell), plus the metamagics of your choice (I prefer Echoing and Twin).

Now, you can use Silent Image to duplicate any Evocation, Conjuration Creation, or Conjuration Summoning spell. That alone is amazing, because it takes a Standard Action to cast the spell and has no component costs (it's just Silent Image), so you can cast Minor or Major Creation as a standard action to instant kill anyone with Black Lotus Poison (buckets of it!) or similar tactics. Plus spells like True Creation become amazing. Furthermore, because of the combo of Earth Spell and Arcane Thesis, and the fact that Silent Image is a 0 level spell for Gnome Illusionists (ACF), you get to add +3+Spell Level to the CL of all such spells. This makes your spells a LOT stronger. Added bonus: you cast all such spells with a spell slot one lower than normal... and if you cast two spells in a row, the second one takes a 0 level slot base (due to Residual Metamagic). Plus all your metamagics other than Heighten cost one less, making spells like Twin Spell a lot more attractive.

And of course since you're just casting Silent Image, you practically cast spontaneously.

So yeah, it trumps everything else (or at least nearly so) as far as single schools go if you do this. No Planar Binding loops of course, but you have so many other options...

JaronK

jeez man...sick!

[Randomguy]

So now we've done 168d6 damage for two 7th level slots and two third level slots,
JaronK
Technically true, but remember you do this damage at over 4 rounds, and you can easily be butchered in one or two by a decent melee character. Hell, even a monk, if he survives the first attack, since fast movement means he gets to you faster and can stun you when he hits. Although with an illusory phantom steed that's not really a factor, but (If earth spell does what I think it does, I'm not completely sure) then you can't gain the benefit of earth spell. Or do you not need to be touching the ground in an earth area for earth spell to work?

Where did you get the +11 caster level from? Highten spell (if earth spell does what I think it does, but i'm not sure about that) only change the level of the spell, not your caster level.

[Coidzor]

Illusion, Transmutation, and Conjuration are the big three. Followed by Necromancy and Enchantment, because those schools allow you to potentially take control of other casters.

[Keld Denar]

Where did you get the +11 caster level from? Highten spell (if earth spell does what I think it does, but i'm not sure about that) only change the level of the spell, not your caster level.

Earth Spell. Its the lynchpin of the build. It does 2 things. 1) when you heighten a spell, you get a free "effective" level out of it. 2) for EACH level you heighten the spell by (including that one free one), you get +1 CL.

[Chronos]

To clarify the question: Is this the single school I'd allow as a DM, or the single school I'd want as a player? Am I looking for power, or for flavor?

[Zeta Kai]

Evocation is widely seen as the weakest school, because it can be emulated by Illusion or Conjuration, & because it has mostly lackluster spells that aren't really worth it.

[Big Fau]

Universal. :smallamused:

There's really not that may spells in Universal, and most of them are not combat-practical.

[Psyren]

To clarify the question: Is this the single school I'd allow as a DM, or the single school I'd want as a player? Am I looking for power, or for flavor?

Yeah, the OP confused me too :smallconfused:

If DM: Every caster should either have divination or abjuration imo. Just studying magic should give you the tools to counter it, or learn more about it, imo.

If the player: I'd probably go with Conjuration.

[jaybird]

Evocation is widely seen as the weakest school, because it can be emulated by Illusion or Conjuration, & because it has mostly lackluster spells that aren't really worth it.

It's quite sad for people like me who really want to play blast wizards :smallfrown: remove Shadow Evocation, put the Orbs into Evocation, and allow dice size to scale (say, for every 5 levels above the minimum level for the spell, raise the dice size by one, meaning that a Wizard 10 would cast 8d8 for Fireball).

[Psyren]

Or do what psionics did - merge evocation and abjuration. Manipulating energy should be used for dispels and all force effects anyway.

[leegi0n]

To clarify the question: Is this the single school I'd allow as a DM, or the single school I'd want as a player? Am I looking for power, or for flavor?

I guess I meant it more from the player perspective, though you have a good point.

[Morph Bark]

There's really not that may spells in Universal, and most of them are not combat-practical.

Who needs combat-practical? I just want Prestidigitation and Wish.

Though if I would be a wizard, I would have to choose Divination. So I can laugh at non-Diviner wizards.

[Zeta Kai]

It's quite sad for people like me who really want to play blast wizards :smallfrown: remove Shadow Evocation, put the Orbs into Evocation, and allow dice size to scale (say, for every 5 levels above the minimum level for the spell, raise the dice size by one, meaning that a Wizard 10 would cast 8d8 for Fireball).

It has always perplexed me that WotC expected Wizards to be blasty, & yet they gave seemingly every mechanical incentive to play a Wizard as anything but blasty. Of all the many ways to eliminate a challenge, blasting its HP away is the least efficient & least effective. Ability damage/drain, save-pecking, & flat-out nyah-nyah escaping are much more attractive options, & far less risky. On top of all that, Conjuration kept plagiarizing all of Evocation's good ideas, & Illusion lets you take all of Eve's stuff out through the back door. Even Necromancy is better served.

[Dr.Epic]

Depends on the build. Like, for a cleric you have to take abjuration (maybe necromancy if they really want it) for the healing spells, but a wizard doesn't have much use for the school. And a bard basically has to go illusion with this. Druids could go conjuration or abjuration depending on if they want to summon or heal. Wizards and sorcerers, really, what kind do you want to be? You want to deal damage, create illusions, be able to divine, have undead minions.

[Psyren]

Depends on the build. Like, for a cleric you have to take abjuration (maybe necromancy if they really want it) for the healing spells, but a wizard doesn't have much use for the school. And a bard basically has to go illusion with this. Druids could go conjuration or abjuration depending on if they want to summon or heal. Wizards and sorcerers, really, what kind do you want to be? You want to deal damage, create illusions, be able to divine, have undead minions.

Healing is conjuration actually, not abjuration. (I think it used to be necromancy at one point, but I don't think it was ever abjuration.)

[JaronK]

Technically true, but remember you do this damage at over 4 rounds, and you can easily be butchered in one or two by a decent melee character.

40% concealment automatically (SCM ability). Plus Mirror Image (Illusionist, remember? With automatically extended illusions!) and any other illusion and conjuration defenses. Greater Mage Armor (no cost, extended like all his other spells) is a given, along with Greater Floating Disk (with some rock and dirt on it for Earth Spell) so he's been flying since about level 5. Could use Greater Invisibility if he really wanted, though I'm not sure I'd want that.

And to be clear, I only picked Polar Ray because the OP asked about Rays. Really, I'd rather be throwing around stuff like Evard's Tentacles, Cloudkill, and so on.


Hell, even a monk, if he survives the first attack, since fast movement means he gets to you faster and can stun you when he hits.

Nope, Chuck Testa. Well, more to the point, nope, flying. And nope, too many miss chances even if he gets there. And 48d6 damage should flatten most level 13ish Monks, and he does that in a single round (24d6 is gonna hurt too!).


Where did you get the +11 caster level from? Highten spell (if earth spell does what I think it does, but i'm not sure about that) only change the level of the spell, not your caster level.

Earth Spell gives +1 Caster Level for each level you heighten a spell, and increases the level of the spell when you heighten it by one. You have to be standing on unworked dirt or rock, hence the use of a Greater Floating Disk with a layer of rock and dirt on it. Also, Arcane Thesis gives +2.

JaronK