Experts, Equipment, and a Point.

[Little Brother]

Okay, first: Is it possible to make an expert to be good? If so, what would it look like? How about any other NPC class(Beyond Adept. That thing could probably survive fine in a T3 party)?

Equipment A) What would a build based on killing stuff with wands look like? Artificer 9 or Warlock 12 would be a start for getting an Unfettered Heroism item, would it not?

Equipment B)(And the point) Okay, some of my players are getting a bit irritating. Rushing headlong, no thought or preparation. The bard and archivist can hold them back, and carry them through, but it's annoying. So, I want to make a point to them. I want to show them how simple preparation from an NPC will let something like an expert destroy them. I am obviously not going to destroy the party, but a little taste of humility cake could do them some good. I say an NPC because a Tucker's Kobolds requires too much set-up. So, I ask you: A) Is this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101) a good starting place? B) Am I going a bit over-the-top on this? C) I'm obviously gonna have to modify the sack. I need a few things. One: How to survive the archivist. He's mostly buffing, but I'm gonna need to be able to survive the blasts he has, as well as the insta-loses, like fear/sleep/etc. Two: I need to be able to let him escape before he dies, just in case the Archivist and Bard pull them through. Third, I need a way to keep the 4th level WBL out of their hands if the guy dies. And fourth: What to cut. This guy is only gonna be level 4, so 5400 GP is the limit.

Thanks.

[NNescio]

Okay, first: Is it possible to make an expert to be good? If so, what would it look like? How about any other NPC class(Beyond Adept. That thing could probably survive fine in a T3 party)?

Pick Handle Animal, UMD, and Diplomacy. Jack Charisma high. Add in Iaijutsu Focus if you want to deal melee damage sometimes. Funny that most of the more broken skills are Cha-based.

[Reluctance]

If you want "preparation" to mean "buffing", just give the party a cannon fodder encounter near the baddie, so he can have a friendly caster buff him up ahead of time. That makes it less about wands, and more about the fact that their rushing in alerted the enemy and allowed him to get the drop instead of vice versa.

If you want thought and preparation, arrange battlefields such that certain areas have natural strategic advantages (e.g: chokepoints and high ground), objects that can be used to good effect (e.g: the classic chandelier that can be dropped on whoever's beneath it), and possibly magical terrain to make certain areas more or less attractive (e.g: a statue that gives anyone adjacent to it +1 to AC and saves). If the players think and take advantage of these features, they gain an advantage. If they continue to rush in heedlessly, things get harder as the enemies position themselves to enjoy the benefits.

[Inferno]

Funny that most of the more broken skills are Cha-based.

Likely why WOTC liked to keep +Cha races to a minimum.

UMD and a whole whack of scrolls can make for a versatile expert, good value to be had in scrolls.
I'd stay away from Iaijutsu Focus if i were you, an expert'll be pretty low on HP. Melee damage boosts or no.

[deuxhero]

That's why you abuse the "draw a melee weapon" not meaning you have to use (it as) a melee weapon. Draw quickrazor/bow as improvised melee weapon and shoot.

[Elfinor]

That's an interesting idea. My party has the occasional potential high CR encounter that they can trigger if they're not careful (sometimes even if they are). Or ones that are strong enough to only be defeated with planning and care. I find throwing in the odd high-level encounter is great for reinforcing tactics and pushing the party to its limits. I'm not totally sadistic though, I generally make sure an escape option is available.

I look forward to seeing how a low level/CR/Tier humiliation would work in contrast to my usual DM tactics. Unfotunately, I don't think I'll be much help given my low tier NPC 'optimisation' experience tends to involve adding more class levels:smalltongue:

How are you planning on breaking the news that they've been (almost) defeated by a Level 4 Expert, is it going to be an in-game (Sense Motive [HD check]/NPC exposition?) or OOC revelation?

[Little Brother]

If you want thought and preparation, arrange battlefields such that certain areas have natural strategic advantages (e.g: chokepoints and high ground), objects that can be used to good effect (e.g: the classic chandelier that can be dropped on whoever's beneath it), and possibly magical terrain to make certain areas more or less attractive (e.g: a statue that gives anyone adjacent to it +1 to AC and saves). If the players think and take advantage of these features, they gain an advantage. If they continue to rush in heedlessly, things get harder as the enemies position themselves to enjoy the benefits.As I said, the Archivist and the Bard, who know what they're doing, pull them through. That's why I want to do this.

That's an interesting idea. My party has the occasional potential high CR encounter that they can trigger if they're not careful (sometimes even if they are). Or ones that are strong enough to only be defeated with planning and care. I find throwing in the odd high-level encounter is great for reinforcing tactics and pushing the party to its limits. I'm not totally sadistic though, I generally make sure an escape option is available.Again, either they won't have a snowball's chance, or the Archivist and Bard's heals/buffs/control with carry them through. Also, part of the agreement between me and the Archivist player, he's supposed to go all out when that happens, but otherwise stay passive, so eh.

I look forward to seeing how a low level/CR/Tier humiliation would work in contrast to my usual DM tactics. Unfotunately, I don't think I'll be much help given my low tier NPC 'optimisation' experience tends to involve adding more class levels:smalltongue:I will let you know. I'll find a when I find an opportunity to do so(in the middle of a dungeon crawl, not the best time).

How are you planning on breaking the news that they've been (almost) defeated by a Level 4 Expert, is it going to be an in-game (Sense Motive [HD check]/NPC exposition?) or OOC revelation?Afterwards. The Archivist and Bard will know what's going on, so I need to be able to deal with them. Ideas?

And what about the "no" buttons? We're running a sorta mix of 3.5 and pathfinder, odd but the group likes it, so whatever. So, if a human, for the +2 anywhere, does so does 12/16/12/14/10/16 look good? How can I bump saves without blowing all the money?

What offensive items are there? I know there are marbles and tanglefoot bags, but what else? I'd also want to avoid wands, as I'd be basically cheating off the wizard.

[Elfinor]

What offensive items are there? I know there are marbles and tanglefoot bags, but what else? I'd also want to avoid wands, as I'd be basically cheating off the wizard. Poisons? It's more useful for taking out/nerfing the Bard, the Archivist's fortitude saves will be a tougher nut to crack.

If the rest of the party are not casters, inhaled poisons of INT and CHA damage will only really hamper the effectiveness of the Archivist and Bard. If other members will also be adversely affected, you can try delivering them by hand either prior to the fight (poisoned food) or during the battle. You can fluff the poisoner emphasising taking the Archivist and Bard out first because of some previous observation of their power.

Are scrolls ok? High UMD check aside...

EDIT: To make it look like you aren't picking on the Archivist and Bard specifically, the expert villain could be viewed as picking off the Bard and Archivist first and then using some cheesy line like '...and now, it's time to deal with you three!'. And then go for more conventional tactics.

Unfortunately, there are still several potions that are capable of these neutralising these poisons to some degree, not to mention any restorative abilities the Archivist may have should he make his save. Forgot about that...

[Coidzor]

...So the two players whose characters aren't doing this are the ones you want to most punish for not conforming to your desired playstyle 100% of the time? :smallconfused:

And with an Expert no less.

Why?

[Elfinor]

It looks more like she wanted them to not be able to pull an auto-win by adding defensive mechanisms to the Expert. Looking for creative ways around auto-win spells for important encounters (while still allowing character contribution) is practically a staple of DMing 3.5 games. An encounter like this, to prove a point, most certainly qualifies as important.

I was actually the only one who suggested offensively targeting those two players specifically, in an 'offence is the best defence' prep style. Targeting the whole party isn't a bad idea either. I just wanted to emphasise the anti-Bard and Archivist potential, though depending on how they roll and the items they carry it may go too far or not far enough. And, again, it wasn't really what she said, I just think that way.

And she wants to prove that even 'just an Expert 4', with limited resources is a formidable threat to a party of adventurers with preparation; ergo hopefully instilling the belief that preparation will make them more effective (and hence better) players hence encouraging forethought, lateral thinking etc.

[Golden Ladybug]

My first thought about this was that you want to build the Batman Expert, and that is an amazing endeavor.

But in terms of being a threatening combatant against your players, using the Charisma based skills is a very powerful option...for a Player. NPCs don't have the luxury of making a roll against the PCs, because it doesn't work in the same way. However a combination of Iajutsu Focus for Damage and UMD for dropping some Scrolls. An interesting option for that would be to Solid Fog the Melee Types while leaving the Casters outside of it, so that you can neutralise them without interference. Alternatively, you can have him cast Silence to deal with the Archivist and Druid, before dashing around to them to drop them while they can't speak. This doesn't inconvenience the Melee types any, since a Sword doesn't require a Verbal Component.

Checks that the PCs will have to beat to even get a hit in against BatExpert is crucial. Hide and Move Silently in dark terrain will give you an advantage against multiple attackers because a single enemy is always disadvantaged just by the discrepancy between actions. If they have trouble even finding their enemy, the encounter will be a struggle and therefore memorable.

Giving terrain advantage to the BatExpert is a good call. I've always wanted to stage a fight on the inside of the eaves of a tall tower. Characters making balance checks to not fall down to the next level of wooden beams, with a fall waiting for them if they can't keep themselves steady...Stuff like that is what the Players will be talking about at the end of the session.

Alternatively, traps and height advantages. If your expert can consistently get the drop on the others by using pitfalls and spikes to lock down parts of the battlefield, while keeping a high ground and using the environment as his weapon just as much as whatever he's actually fighting with...well, that'd work well for him, I think.

[Little Brother]

...So the two players whose characters aren't doing this are the ones you want to most punish for not conforming to your desired playstyle 100% of the time? :smallconfused:

And with an Expert no less.

Why?


It looks more like she wanted them to not be able to pull an auto-win by adding defensive mechanisms to the Expert. Looking for creative ways around auto-win spells for important encounters (while still allowing character contribution) is practically a staple of DMing 3.5 games. An encounter like this, to prove a point, most certainly qualifies as important.

I was actually the only one who suggested offensively targeting those two players specifically, in an 'offence is the best defence' prep style. Targeting the whole party isn't a bad idea either. I just wanted to emphasise the anti-Bard and Archivist potential, though depending on how they roll and the items they carry it may go too far or not far enough. And, again, it wasn't really what she said, I just think that way.

And she wants to prove that even 'just an Expert 4', with limited resources is a formidable threat to a party of adventurers with preparation; ergo hopefully instilling the belief that preparation will make them more effective (and hence better) players hence encouraging forethought, lateral thinking etc.This is why.

I don't want to punish them per se, I need to prevent them from winning the encounter. Thus, Silence, Tanglefoot bags, and so on will be good. The other guys are ToB and a PsyWar archer, so I am going to need to work hard to get them

What do you guys think about planting Explosive Packs(Secrets of Sarlona) ahead of time for some more control. Only a couple will make the PCs paranoid enough to keep them corralled in a small area.

Would abusing Shapesand and Chaos Flasks be too mean? And what poisons are good for this? I don't wanna kill them, but I want to make this point. Dragon Bile or something?

My first thought about this was that you want to build the Batman Expert, and that is an amazing endeavor.I didn't think about that. He's even gonna have a utility belt. Awesome.

But in terms of being a threatening combatant against your players, using the Charisma based skills is a very powerful option...for a Player. NPCs don't have the luxury of making a roll against the PCs, because it doesn't work in the same way. However a combination of Iajutsu Focus for Damage and UMD for dropping some Scrolls. An interesting option for that would be to Solid Fog the Melee Types while leaving the Casters outside of it, so that you can neutralise them without interference. Alternatively, you can have him cast Silence to deal with the Archivist and Druid, before dashing around to them to drop them while they can't speak. This doesn't inconvenience the Melee types any, since a Sword doesn't require a Verbal Component. So, quickrazors? Or a bajillion weapons to draw? I can't really use a gnome for this, so yeah. Maybe make it a whatever that thing in ToM that gives HiPS, for flat-footing and survival? In that case, taking the casters is most important.

Checks that the PCs will have to beat to even get a hit in against BatExpert is crucial. Hide and Move Silently in dark terrain will give you an advantage against multiple attackers because a single enemy is always disadvantaged just by the discrepancy between actions. If they have trouble even finding their enemy, the encounter will be a struggle and therefore memorable.

Giving terrain advantage to the BatExpert is a good call. I've always wanted to stage a fight on the inside of the eaves of a tall tower. Characters making balance checks to not fall down to the next level of wooden beams, with a fall waiting for them if they can't keep themselves steady...Stuff like that is what the Players will be talking about at the end of the session.I do like the rafters idea. Especially since Explosive Packs could blow out beams with players on them.

Alternatively, traps and height advantages. If your expert can consistently get the drop on the others by using pitfalls and spikes to lock down parts of the battlefield, while keeping a high ground and using the environment as his weapon just as much as whatever he's actually fighting with...well, that'd work well for him, I think.I'm holding myself to WBL to make the point. How much is one? If I'm right, I should be able to dance around the meleers easily, so the issues are the casters(Bard not so much, not as many I win buttons) and the Archer.

I'm considering using Wild Cohort to help with the actions, maybe a Warbred Dog or something? Does Natural Bond affect Wild Cohort? If so, would a Warbred Fleshraker be too much?

[Darrin]

Okay, first: Is it possible to make an expert to be good? If so, what would it look like? How about any other NPC class(Beyond Adept. That thing could probably survive fine in a T3 party)?


There are at least two skills that can be optimized that might make an Expert into a viable threat: Handle Animal and UMD.

One of the better "Go To" build for Handle Animal optimization is actually Bubs the Commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) (not an Expert but could be adapted fairly easily). This is essentially "minionmancy", though... the threat isn't really the NPC, but the menagerie of pets he surrounds himself with. When you're dealing with trained animals, however, it can be difficult to guage the difficulty. You can go "off the rails" of the typical CR/Encounter Level calculations, since anyone can acquire a bunch of animals (no HD cap, and Warbeasts are fantastically cheap) and train them.

Not sure if there's a "Go To" build for Expert/UMD... but I'd be very leery of that, since most of your wands/scrolls are going to be standard actions to activate, which means one single expert vs. the party is going to get smeared in 1-2 rounds just because he can't compete in the action economy (although a Choker optimized for UMD could be interesting...)



Equipment A) What would a build based on killing stuff with wands look like? Artificer 9 or Warlock 12 would be a start for getting an Unfettered Heroism item, would it not?


I prefer Warlocks. Simple, straightforward, and almost no bookkeeping to keep track of.



So, I ask you: A) Is this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101) a good starting place? B) Am I going a bit over-the-top on this? C) I'm obviously gonna have to modify the sack. I need a few things. One: How to survive the archivist. He's mostly buffing, but I'm gonna need to be able to survive the blasts he has, as well as the insta-loses, like fear/sleep/etc.


Mirror image is a good low-level anti-blasting spell that can buy you a couple rounds. There's actually a 1st-level version, instant diversion in Races of the Dragon that makes for a great 1st level wand, but probably only one image so more like a 50/50 chance to hit the real target. Wand Chamber (100 GP, Dungeonscape) with a wand of wings of cover can be a fantastic defense, but 2nd level wands are a little expensive. Cloak of Energy Protection (1000 GP, MIC) and Enduring Amulet (1500 GP, MIC) are great low-cost items for energy-based damage.

Whiteshiver Elixir (1500 GP, check the Type III list) takes care of most of the insta-loses (gain all the immunities of the plant type), and it's a one-shot item that your expert can quaff before the encounter, so the party may never even know where those immunities come from.



Two: I need to be able to let him escape before he dies, just in case the Archivist and Bard pull them through.


If the expert isn't wearing any armor (check out Tarmak War Paint in Honorable Mentions, 500 GP, Dragonlance Campaign Setting p. 232), the Escaping version of the Panic Button (750 GP, Complete Scoundrel) can do dimension door as a swift action.

If Eberron material is available, Tempo Bloodspike can give him an extra move action. Those are both disposable one-shots, so not a long-lasting headache if the PCs get their hands on them. Other than contingency shenanigans, not much available as an immediate action... except maybe Greaves of Aundair (5000 GP, Forge of War): 3/day immediately take a move action, although you're dazed on the next round. Pairs up nicely with move-action teleports, such as Bolt Shirt (5000 GP, MIC), but that's probably well outside your budget.

Hmmm... Glyph Seal (1000 GP, MIC) + dimension hop (PHBII) might work as a free action (key it to a pocket that contains ammo/spell components), but be careful there... very easy to abuse those things, if the PCs got ahold of it.



Third, I need a way to keep the 4th level WBL out of their hands if the guy dies.


Maybe Glyph Seal again, keyed to anyone else opening the haversack... a shadow cache cast via Sanctum Spell (so it's a 2nd level spell) would stuff the haversack into a pocket on the Plane of Shadow, making it essentially unretrievable.

Fire trap on the haversack, with maybe some explosive runes shenanigans all over his equip... well, maybe that's a little too far into d-bag territory.

Hmm. I keep coming back to the shadow cache idea... maybe put a Clockwork Mender (MMIV, available via Craft Construct, Improved Familiar, or summon monster II) inside the haversack with instructions to hide or destroy the haversack if it sees anyone else open/take possession of the bag. Shadow cache might be something the Clockwork Mender could cast via a potion/oil or skull talisman (Frostburn). It could either do this immediately (giving the party a chance to stop it), or "play dead" until the party is sleeping/traveling/etc.



And fourth: What to cut. This guy is only gonna be level 4, so 5400 GP is the limit.


Instead of the whole sack, I'd start with just taking a few tricks and setting up some mini-encounters. Some examples:

1) Eggshell Grenades. Very cheap, and works great if you've got some minions handy who can Sneak Attack for more damage. The big worry here is that the PCs will figure out where to buy these or how to make their own. You might want to either raise the price to 100ish GP, or make them a trademark item of some Ninja Assassin Guild that gets really, really bent out of shape if someone tries to steal/use their "trade secrets".

A human expert 4 can take Quickdraw + PB Shot + Rapid Shot to throw two eggshell grenades a round. A few scrolls of swift ready (Forge of War p. 117) could also put eggshell grenades in each hand as a swift action. Maybe use some preloaded slings for better range. If I sprung this on the party, I'd probably just be trying to harrass them at first. Surprise round + wand of nerveskitter gives me maybe three ranged touch attacks before the party can react, then maybe a bag of tricks/bead of beckoning/skull talisman (conjure ice beast III) to create some minions for the party to worry about, steal something important with a Sleight of Hand check (pickpocket is a flat DC 20 check, potion of guidance of the avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) if need be to make sure it succeeds), and then obscuring mist/panic button to dash away.

2) Aboleth Mucus. Obviously, you *never* want to use this stuff against the party unless you're absolutely sure they can get to an air breathing/water breathing spell. A stash of Auran Masks (Complete Mage) plus a source of water can help, but you need at least 18 of them per person to last all three hours. A clever party might be able to stretch that by sticking someone's head in a bucket of water for 1 round (10 minutes of Auran Mask = 100 rounds) and then holding their breath for 2-3 minutes, rinse and repeat. A few wands of aquatic escape (Complete Scoundrel) could also provide an aquatic form for short 1-round increments... 50 charges spread out between 30 rounds of holding your breath = 2.5 hours. Nixies and Green Hags can provide water breathing, and Nereids (Stormwrack) can provide air breathing at will.

As with the eggshell grenades, Quickdraw + PB Shot + Rapid Shot and/or scrolls of swift ready for two ranged touch attacks per round. Actually, since the mucus is probably in glass flasks similar to potions, add a Masterwork Potion Belt for drawing a flask as a free action 1/round. If I was feeling particularly evil, soften up the party with a few flasks of Atramen Oil (Planar Handbook, -4 to Fort saves) and then hit them with a Sprayer (25 GP, A&EG) full of Aboleth Mucus for a 5'x10' area attack.

If the PCs try to get their hands on this stuff for their own use... either jack up the price ("due to increased demand") or force them to hunt down an actual Aboleth, which are just %$&#ing *nasty* to begin with.

3) Waterskin + liquid ice/freeze powder + razor ice powder. Ideally, you want to put this on a ramp, sloped floor, or stairs, so if someone slips they slide through multiple squares of slashing/cold damage. For about 160 GP, you can create a 10' x 20' trap that can do 4d4 slashing damage + 4d6 cold damage if someone fails their balance check on the first square. If you want to be really evil, add some oil of invisibility (300 GP) so they can't see the razor ice. Nice little trap that can be set up quickly with just a few rounds to prep. To cover an escape, a wand of swift fly or winged watcher would allow the expert to fly over the trapped stairs/ramp/etc.

Given that most PCs won't bother taking the time to prep this stuff, clever enemies can walk around the razor ice if need be, and it's consumed by use, letting the PCs get their hands on these items shouldn't cause too much trouble.

4) Razor net + Blister Oil Bomb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168100). You'd want to use just enough Blister Oil to give the party a decent scare but not so much to actually kill them outright. Fort save is only DC 15, but Atramen Oil can make things a lot more interesting. Throwing nets is another good delaying tactic to discourage pursuit. Blister Oil also makes a great trap you can prepare ahead of time... coat a piece of treasure or a door handle.

To prevent your PCs from making their own Blister Oil, you can play the "rare ingredient" card and suddenly all sources for the rare chemical (avoid rare plants, since they can be created via psionic minor creation or Djinn's major creation SLA) become so scarce that the price goes up or just becomes unavailable.

5) Chaos Flask abuse. 100 GP + Wisdom check to turn it into any type of poison. I'd avoid anything with a lot of Con damage or death effects. Greater Svaklor Venom (MM3/Dungeonscape) is nice: DC 34, primary effect is paralysis, secondary 1d6 Con. Coat a handful of shurikens or caltrops, and a scatterspray spell turns them into a 10' burst effect with a Ref save (scatterspray can also be cast via a Drow House Insignia). You can also turn it into some of the more interesting slimes/molds/fungi. Brown Mold thrown near a fire = 3d6 nonlethal cold damage in a 5' radius, which could knock out several PCs. Snowflake Lichen (Frostburn) does 1d6 cold damage (no save) to anyone within 10', and anyone in the same square must make a Fort save DC 15 or take 1 point of Dex damage. Gray Slime (Dungeonscape) exposed to torchlight causes 4d6/2d6/1d6 acid damage, or daylight causes 8d6/4d6/2d6 damage.

Since all sources of raw Limbo most likely involve some kind of planar travel, you can restrict PC access to Chaos Flasks by making sure planar travel is difficult or impossible. The easiest counter is to just use enemies that are immune to poison (undead, constructs, etc.).

6) Levitation/fly + Feather Token: Swan Boat. WARNING: DO NOT PULL THIS ON A LOW-LEVEL PARTY, unless they seriously deserve a humiliating TPK. You have to first establish the size and weight of a boat that can carry 32 medium-sized creatures (20' x 40', 10' x 80', or something like that), but it's probably a safe bet to say it's somewhere above 4000 lbs, which is what you need to max out Falling Object damage at 20d6. By RAW in the core rules, there is no save to avoid falling object damage. However, you can use the Aerial Bombardment rules in Heroes of Battle to give your poor PCs a Ref save DC 15 to avoid the damage (p. 68).

Cheap ways to get above your target could include an unseen servant/wood wose, potion of levitation or alter self, wand of swift fly or updraft, summon monster, Amber Amulet of Vermin, Clockwork Minder, Obtain Familiar/Improved Familiar, etc.

If you don't want to crush the party with a TPK, suddenly throwing down a large boat in the middle of a narrow corridor/room can be an interesting way to prevent pursuit. Do be careful about letting the PCs get their own hands on a bunch of Feather Tokens or a Folding Boat. If they try to use this tactic a lot, then make sure your enemies start investing in the Anti-Impact armor enhancement (Complete Warrior p. 133).

All 6 of these only require fairly cheap disposable one-shot items, so you could probably skip the rest of the haversack by just prepping for whichever tactic you want to hit them with.

[Elfinor]

This is why. I'm glad I got it right, but I still think I need to get the hang of not speaking for people who can and do speak for themselves, so I apologise.


The other guys are ToB and a PsyWar archer, so I am going to need to work hard to get them. What do you guys think about planting Explosive Packs(Secrets of Sarlona) ahead of time for some more control. Only a couple will make the PCs paranoid enough to keep them corralled in a small area. Sounds good with the rafter idea. If your Psy War archer doesn't have a magic weapon yet (I suppose he would, Level 4?) then Protection from Arrows may be useful.


Would abusing Shapesand and Chaos Flasks be too mean? And what poisons are good for this? I don't wanna kill them, but I want to make this point. Dragon Bile or something? I think as part of the part of the 'proving the point' exercise the most important question you need to ask is, 'Would I be comfortable with the PC's using these tactics?' For me, that's a no - but it's your game.

Normally I'd just link you to the Arsenic and Old Lace Poison Handbook and tell you to go nuts, but since BG is down...

Unless you want to pre-poison them somehow (in food, contact poison on a doorknob, trap etc.) then inhaled poisons are probably the way to go, because they don't actually require an attack roll and have a maximum range of 50 ft. Rapid Shot helps here, since they are technically ranged attacks. I can only find one potentially useful in-combat inhaled poison:

Stun Gas (Underdark) DC 12 40gp 1rnd stun/1d4 rnd stun

Honestly, I'm a little surprised I can't find more. Relying on 'other' equipment is the best option there I suppose. If you're partial to the idea of pre-poisoning, then let me know what you want (i.e. ingested or otherwise, specific targets, nastiness level) and I'll see what I can scrounge up after a few hours - I've got to head off in a bit.

In combat non-fatal-but-scary contact/injury poisons:
Contact
Dragon Bile DC 26 1500gp 3d6 STR dmage
Snow Spider Blood (Frostburn) DC 13 750gp Paralysis 1 min/none
Sassone Leaf Residue DC 16 300gp 2d12HP/1d6 CON

Injury
Drow Poison DC 13 75gp 1min unconscious/1d3 hours unconscious
Darklight Brew (DotU) DC 26 1500gp 2d6 CON+1d6 STR/Blinded
Roach paste (DotU) DC 12 50gp Nausea/Inflict Filth Fever


Does Natural Bond affect Wild Cohort? No, the description states that the Wild Cohort rules are seperate from Animal Companion rules and Natural Bond only specifies Animal Companions.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fbrilliantgameologist s.com%2Fboards%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D9602.60

Expert versus monk challenge! =D

[Acanous]

If the fight is somewhere with chokepoints, use a Tanglefoot bag on the surprise round, it'll help even out the action disparity somewhat. Follow up with Silence or an Acid flask on the casters to make casting difficult for a few rounds. Use splash weapons as often as possible, and hit the most players as you can, breaking line of sight/effect afterward. Theoretically, this guy should only be vulnerable to ranged attacks one round every two. (5 foot step out, use an item, spend that round vulnerable, use an item, 5 foot step behind cover)

Traps are good, and simple traps can be rigged with Survival. like say, a string across the floor that holds up a Tanglefoot bag on the ceiling directly above.

Glitterdust is worth it. The chance to blind SOMEONE is high if you hit the whole party with it. Grease stops chargers, forces balance checks to move across or it eats their actions just *Getting closer*, which again forces some action parity. Stinking Cloud is an awesome spell, and Solid Fog is probably the best there is in terms of low-level panic buttons.

[Gavinfoxx]

An expert can tame a pet roc. An expert can fight with Iajutsu and Gnomish Quickrazors! An expert can Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device on wands and Dorjes! An expert can kill someone in their sleep from far away with Lucid Dreaming! An expert can intimidate with Imperious Command! An expert can Sneak with the best of them! An expert can kill them with knowledge of anatomy via Knowledge Devotion!

[Elfinor]

Revised in-combat non-lethal-but-scary poison list, now with 3.0 sources and capped at 1500gp:
Inhaled

Stun Gas (Underdark) DC 12 40gp 1rnd stun/1d4 rnd stun
Brain Dust (A&E guide [3.0]) DC 12 1300gp Confusion(unspecified duration [my guess is 2d6 minutes like standard paralysis])/1d4 Wis


Contact

Dragon Bile DC 26 1500gp 3d6 STR dmage
Snow Spider Blood (Frostburn) DC 13 750gp Paralysis 1 min/none
Sassone Leaf Residue DC 16 300gp 2d12HP/1d6 CON
Carrion Crawler Brain Juice (DMG) DC 13 300gp Paralysis/none
Sleeping Weed (AEG [3.0]) DC 13 500gp Slowed (unspecified duration)/1d4 Dex


Injury

Drow Poison DC 13 75gp 1min unconscious/1d3 hours unconscious
Darklight Brew (DotU) DC 26 1500gp 2d6 CON+1d6 STR/Blindness
Roach paste (DotU) DC 12 50gp Nausea (1 rnd)/Inflict Filth Fever
Eyeblast (BoVD [3.0]) DC 22 500gp Blindness/Blindness
Banelar Essence (AEG [3.0]) DC 11 300gp 2d4 CON/Unconsciousness
Choldrith Toxin (AEG [3.0]) DC 15 1200gp Paralysis/2d4 CON
Vapid Leaf Extract (AEG [3.0]) DC 16 250gp Dazed (Euphoric???) (Unspecified Duration but SRD says 'a dazed condition typically lasts one round')/2d6INT
Redek Vine Extract (AEG [3.0]) DC 17 1500gp 2d6 DEX/none
Blasphemix (Complete Scoundrel) DC 22 750gp Must pass CL check to cast Divine spells/-1 CL for Divine spells
Goodbye Kiss (can also be ingested) (CS) DC 15 350gp Exhaustion/Exhaustion or Unconsciousness


I'm pretty sure these books + Complete Adventurer & Stormwrack are the only ones that have poisons in them (short of positoxins in LM and ravages in BoED) so I retract my offer of listing other poison methods:smalltongue: You can probably just browse the books if you want to soften them up a bit beforehand.

EDIT: Just read Tucker's Kobolds *cackles insanely*

[deuxhero]

Why cap at 1500? Why not 1500 or plant based? Go-go Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation)!

[Elfinor]

I assumed poison still counts towards Little Brother's requested WBL restriction, regardless of source - it is technically wealth, after all. I don't think it's worth spending more than 1500gp (over 1/4 of budget) on a poison that could miss or be saved against because there are a variety of other ideas worth implementing as well.

Of course, if I'm wrong, there aren't that many books to flick through anyway (DMG, BoVD and AEG are the most prolific). On a quick flick through it looks like most over budget poisons with a powerful initial effect that are also non lethal are non-plant based anyway. There aren't that many of them, either.

[Darrin]

I can only find one potentially useful in-combat inhaled poison:

Stun Gas (Underdark) DC 12 40gp 1rnd stun/1d4 rnd stun


Inhaled
Greensickness (MM3/Dungeonscape): DC 33, 2d6 Str + 1d4 Con/2d6 Str + 1d4 Con, 4000 GP. Vegetable matter, too.

Sleep-Smoke (Waterdeep p. 152): DC 15, unconscious 1 min/unconscious 1d3 minutes, 25 GP.

Oruighen (Lords of Darkness p. 184): DC 14, blindness for 2d4 min/--, 20 GP.


Also, there are some drugs that can be used like poisons, and some of them have side effects or overdose effects that trigger without any saves. For example:

Mushroom Powder (BoVD p. 43). Inhaled DC 15, 100 GP. Primary effect is +2 alchemical bonus to Int and Cha, Secondary is 1 point Str damage, but if someone is exposed four times within a 24-hour period, overdose effect is 4d6 damage and paralysis for 2d4 hours (no save!). Vegetable matter.

Kammarth (Lords of Darkness p. 183). Contact DC 10 or Ingested DC 13, 80 GP. Primary is expeditious retreat effect, Secondary is +2 alchemical bonus to Dex. If exposed to two doses within 8 hours, Overdose is 4d4 damage and paralysis for 2d4 hours (no save!). It's magical, however, so no Chaos Flask shenanigans. Cheaper than a Chaos Flask, though.

If using the Sprayer from A&EG seems a bit too unfair, check out the Mister in Drow of the Underdark (150 GP). You can use it to deliver poisons/drugs as a ranged touch attack to an adjacent square. Contact and inhaled poisons automatically take effect, while ingested poisons allow a Ref save DC 15 to avoid. Injury poisons take effect if the target has already been wounded and hasn't received a Heal check.

[Acanous]

Sprayer shennanigans, I'd say just go Sprayer+Aboleth Mucous. But you're going to TPK the party.