What do you think this item to be worth?

[faceroll]

It combines the functionality of a Handy Haversack's main compartment with that of a robe of useful items, except that the "patches" on the robe are useable once per week.

[docnessuno]

Between 15.000 and 30.000 gp, rough estimate. Probably i'd price it at 25.000

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Are we assuming that we're eliminating the patches that amount to money and making the most saleable items temporary?

[Godskook]

The main question is how are you benefitting from having this as opposed to just simply buying both items separately?

[flumphy]

The main question is how are you benefitting from having this as opposed to just simply buying both items separately?

I assume he's going for a magical pack you can spontaneously pull useful stuff out of rather than actual patches. And if he's customizing the "patches" to be 1/week anyway, he's already in the realm of custom pricing, so he might as well combine the items.

I'd say 15-20k is the right ballpark, depending on the exact nature of the patches.

[faceroll]

Are we assuming that we're eliminating the patches that amount to money and making the most saleable items temporary?

No. I was thinking every week it would randomly replenish used patches.
If the following patches were missing:
Dagger
Bullseye lantern (filled and lit)
Mirror (a highly polished 2-foot-by-4-foot steel mirror)
Pole (10-foot length)
Hempen rope (50-foot coil)
Sack
Then it would automatically replenish them on Sunday.

It would also come with 10 of the following, randomly determined:
01-08 Bag of 100 gold pieces
09-15 Coffer, silver (6 in. by 6 in. by 1 ft.), 500 gp value
16-22 Door, iron (up to 10 ft. wide and 10 ft. high and barred on one side—must be placed upright, attaches and hinges itself)
23-30 Gems, 10 (100 gp value each)
31-44 Ladder, wooden (24 ft. long)
45-51 Mule (with saddle bags)
52-59 Pit, open (10 ft. by 10 ft. by 10 ft.)
60-68 Potion of cure serious wounds
69-75 Rowboat (12 ft. long)
76-83 Minor scroll of one randomly determined spell
84-90 War dogs, pair (treat as riding dogs)
91-96 Window (2 ft. by 4 ft., up to 2 ft. deep)
97-100 Portable ram

If, at the end of the week, 3 patches had been used, it would randomly replenish those 3.

Could you game the system a little for extra wealth? Sure. But it'd come out to an average of 160gp in valuables a week, and about 50gp or so in animals.

Hardly game breaking.


The main question is how are you benefitting from having this as opposed to just simply buying both items separately?

The Robe takes up your armor slot. The Robe's items also are used up forever once removed. The bag would also let you put items back in, should you want to keep it (of course, it would then count against the ten item limit for replenishing patches every week).

[docnessuno]

Hmm, considering the possible wealth generation, i'll revise my price at a 100k. tag minumum. Assuming your 160 gp estimate is accurate, we are looking at 160*10*52 = 83.000 gp/year.
Actually 400k tag could be more appropriate.

[Mr.Smashy]

I don't see it being more than 100k. I would look into the DMG pricing for unique magic items. I am thinking somewhere around 75k to be legit. Keep in mind the randomness from the bag, where one week (if you steadily roll crappy) you could pull nothing but mules with saddle bags (An awesome adventure idea springs to mind), or 10' poles. The money will hardly be an issue by the time you can afford this item, making it semi-moot, but good for roleplaying bribery. :smallcool:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Could you game the system a little for extra wealth? Sure. But it'd come out to an average of 160gp in valuables a week, and about 50gp or so in animals.

Hardly game breaking.


Your calculations are way off.

Each of the ten random patches is a:
8% chance of 100gp value 8gp
7% chance of a silver coffer worth 500gp value 35gp
8% chance of 10 100gp gems value 80gp

So, just of the chance of getting those things each patch is worth 123gp not counting the possibility of selling animals, daggers etc. 1,230 gp a week can easily be gamebreaking.

This isn't to say I don't love the idea, but I would consider the unrestricted version a minor artifact or possibly a relic. An unexploitable version I would price in the 30-40k range.

[faceroll]

I don't see it being more than 100k. I would look into the DMG pricing for unique magic items. I am thinking somewhere around 75k to be legit. Keep in mind the randomness from the bag, where one week (if you steadily roll crappy) you could pull nothing but mules with saddle bags (An awesome adventure idea springs to mind), or 10' poles. The money will hardly be an issue by the time you can afford this item, making it semi-moot, but good for roleplaying bribery. :smallcool:


Hmm, considering the possible wealth generation, i'll revise my price at a 100k. tag minumum. Assuming your 160 gp estimate is accurate, we are looking at 160*10*52 = 83.000 gp/year.
Actually 400k tag could be more appropriate.

No offense or anything, but you guys are really bad at pricing. I wouldn't put the cost of this bag at over 8,000gp.

Reflect on the opportunity cost of paying 100,000gp for a robe that has some mundane items in it as opposed to spending that 100,000gp on magic items that lets you kill dragons and topple kingdoms.


Your calculations are way off.

Each of the ten random patches is a:
8% chance of 100gp value 8gp
7% chance of a silver coffer worth 500gp value 35gp
8% chance of 10 100gp gems value 80gp

So, just of the chance of getting those things each patch is worth 123gp not counting the possibility of selling animals, daggers etc. 1,230 gp a week can easily be gamebreaking.

This isn't to say I don't love the idea, but I would consider the unrestricted version a minor artifact or possibly a relic. An unexploitable version I would price in the 30-40k range.

Oh yeah, my math was hilariously off. I wasn't thinking of with replacement. At what point does 1,230gp become trivial? Level 10? 15?

The item's really cool for low levels, where the mundane stuff matters. At higher levels, it'd only be picked up as an item farm if you expect the campaign to last more weeks than cost of item/1,230gp.

Of course, this isn't calculating the opportunity cost in investing in the item as opposed to one that actually does something at that level.

[The Boz]

No offense or anything, but you guys are really bad at pricing. I wouldn't put the cost of this bag at over 8,000gp.


So according to you, a single item that combines the functionality of one item and improved functionality of another must cost less than those two items combined?
Really?

[faceroll]

So according to you, a single item that combines the functionality of one item and improved functionality of another must cost less than those two items combined?
Really?

Are you saying that the DMG has any idea how to price magic items?
What was Monte Cook thinking when he priced a Candle of Invocation vs. the Spoon of Gruel?

MiC is a MUCH better book for pricing items.

[Vowtz]

Hmm, considering the possible wealth generation, i'll revise my price at a 100k. tag minumum. Assuming your 160 gp estimate is accurate, we are looking at 160*10*52 = 83.000 gp/year.
Actually 400k tag could be more appropriate.Very good point. It's exactly what I was thinking.


Reflect on the opportunity cost of paying 100,000gp for a robe that has some mundane items in it as opposed to spending that 100,000gp on magic items that lets you kill dragons and topple kingdoms.You are assuming that it will be used by an adventurer to use in fights or dungeon crawling, a commoner with this item would just keep making money for 50 years.

You are also assuming that those "topple kingdoms probably broken items (candle of invocation or such)" are available on market, any DM could (and should) not make them so trivial.

[faceroll]

Very good point. It's exactly what I was thinking.

You are assuming that it will be used by an adventurer to use in fights or dungeon crawling, a commoner with this item would just keep getting gold for 50 years.

How would a commoner get a hold of anything worth more than 1,000 gold, much less something magical?

By the time an NPC could afford this item (at 8,000gp), they'd have to be level 9. At that point, they can cast fabricate and flesh to salt and wall of iron.

Furthermore, balancing a game that's for PCs to kill monsters in dungeons around what an NPC could do with it on his off time seems silly. If I wrote down "and then bob the farmer found a magic item that made him wealthy and through careful gold-laundering techniques was able to become a successful businessman", who cares? It's just another minor baron that some adventurers or marauding gnolls or whatever kill and loot.


You are also assuming that those "topple kingdoms probably broken items (candle of invocation or such)" are available on market, any DM could (and should) not make them so trivial.

For 100,000gp, you can buy almost 12 candles of invocation. I was meaning stuff like a broom of flying, a scroll of shapechange, helm of teleport, a ring of wishes, a golem manual.

The issue with an item that generates 1,230 gp a week is how rapidly that item simply becomes an addition to ones wardrobe, so to speak, just for that additional 1,230 gp a week. I'd put it at 40k gp. That's more than the price of a belt of giant strength +6. That's also nearly 40 weeks to repay itself. That is fine. 40 weeks are enough weeks to go from level 1 to level 30. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if some of your equipment wasn't artifacts.

[The Boz]

Please don't use the single most underpriced item ever in the book to prove your point.

[Vowtz]

"and then bob the farmer found a magic item that made him wealthy and through careful gold-laundering techniques was able to become a successful businessman" Now I want to play as Bob, he is a smart guy, I could do one of those PHII adventures to change my commoner levels to wizard.

Even if you don't like Bob's business adventure, it still can exist in your world.

[flumphy]

You could get around the gold generation issue by getting rid of the gold patch and/or giving the conjured items a limited duration. Sure, you could still sell the stuff and then get out of town if you were fast enough and never going back to that town, but that does put a bit of a damper on things.

That said, I don't think it's much of an issue to begin with. By the time you can afford to buy even a regular old robe of useful items, there are better ways to break WBL in half if you're really out to do so.

[Vowtz]

You could get around the gold generation issue by getting rid of the gold patch and/or giving the conjured items a limited duration.I Agree.



That said, I don't think it's much of an issue to begin with. By the time you can afford to buy even a regular old robe of useful items, there are better ways to break WBL in half if you're really out to do so. Knowing there are broken items does not validate the point of creating another one.

[docnessuno]

Lets' assume the price thag for the item is ony 100k gp
By owning it you can gain 60k/80k of valuables / year

So, why anyone with that kind of wealth shouln't buy one? several? it would take less than 2 years to break even and then it would be pure profit.

[Tyndmyr]

So according to you, a single item that combines the functionality of one item and improved functionality of another must cost less than those two items combined?
Really?

Yeah, it's most certainly worth more than the two items...especially because it avoids using slots, and is now rechargeable? Notably more. I'll hold off on an exact number until a final decision is made for the cash generation. 'cause that changes a *lot*. Like, possibly the entire campaign world.

Edit: Also, never, ever use the candle of invocation to justify pricing. If you want your item to be balanced, compare against balanced items. Comparing against broken ones just means you're equally broken.

[The Boz]

Idea: Items the robething produces are temporary, last 12 hours, are glittering in an obviously magical fashion, and are partially transparent, making their temporary magical nature quite apparent. No more gold generation.
Item price: between 18 and 32 thousand gold (going by the enchantment level, taking a haversack as level 1 and the robe as level 2 [according to their price tags], combined they are level 3 at 18k, or 4 at 32k because the robe is much better than before).

[Ziegander]

It combines the functionality of a Handy Haversack's main compartment with that of a robe of useful items, except that the "patches" on the robe are useable once per week.

Price it like you adjusted later in the thread, 40,000gp. No need to tweak it so that the items are only "partially real" or something inane like that. Part of the functionality of it is to be able to pull out some gems when you need gp for a bribe. You're absolutely right to apprehensive about complaints over gaming the wealth, because characters go from 1st to 20th level in less than a year, so why does it matter?

If your campaign has a lot of downtime and a player decides to abuse the item to create free wealth, penalize him by having him destabilize the local economy and let the repercussions plague him and all the other PCs at every turn.

[faceroll]

I don't see why 1,230gp/week is getting everyone bent out of shape. That's 175 gp per day. That's adding a little more value to the economy as an item that casts a 3rd level spell 1/day.

Teleporting one person a day using boots of teleportation (1 teleport to the destination, 1 teleport back, 1 teleport to get to the next customer, charging money only for the first 2 teleports) generates 328,500gp worth of value in a year, and the item only costs 49k.


Yeah, it's most certainly worth more than the two items...especially because it avoids using slots, and is now rechargeable? Notably more. I'll hold off on an exact number until a final decision is made for the cash generation. 'cause that changes a *lot*. Like, possibly the entire campaign world.

So? I don't know why you've got to be such a slave to DMG pricing. There are some really cool items in there, but you'd never buy them because they pretty much suck for their price. Better to sell them to... whoever it is that buys crappy magic items and turn it into something that will keep you from dying.


Edit: Also, never, ever use the candle of invocation to justify pricing. If you want your item to be balanced, compare against balanced items. Comparing against broken ones just means you're equally broken.

Who was doing that?

[The Boz]

Who was doing that?

For 100,000gp, you can buy almost 12 candles of invocation. I was meaning stuff like a broom of flying, a scroll of shapechange, helm of teleport, a ring of wishes, a golem manual.


You was doing that.

[Ziegander]

You was doing that.

*facepalm*

There's a difference between putting things into perspective and using that perspective as justification.

Did you not notice that he also included several items in the same post you quoted which are not Candle of Invocation and are not campaign wreckers?

[faceroll]

*facepalm*

There's a difference between putting things into perspective and using that perspective as justification.

Did you not notice that he also included several items in the same post you quoted which are not Candle of Invocation and are not campaign wreckers?

Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

[maysarahs]

My suggestion would be to get rid of the raw money producing options of the item, (up the random percentage of some other options) and have it be similar to the survival pouch ( one of my favorite early game items) where everything it summons disappears in 24 hours. If I were your DM that would show your commitment to not gaming the system, and you'd still get 95% of the perceived intended use, and no one would get their panties in a twist about ruining the economy, make it around 15k-20k and call it a day

Edit: and have it replenish every day?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

New perspective: YMMV

I am aware that by RAW it only takes about 80 days (plus any travel time between adventures) to level from 1-20. If this doesn't bother you and you don't insert significant travel time at low levels and downtime into high levels to pad the length of the adventuring party's career to what feels like a reasonable length then you'll never have to worry about gold generation, but as outsiders pricing the item for no campaign in particular we're forced to err on the side of caution.

Again love the idea, I visualize the fully functional one as Roland's growbag. Though that couldn't have items that couldn't fit in a bag.

[PirateLizard]

Give it a connection to some Divine entity for flavor...and also so you can make make a rule that other than the objects meant to be of monetary value, if you sell them just for the gold (ie you could trade wardogs to a tribe of ferals for a night's lodging or so they don't kill you in a pinch or somesuch) the patch never replenishes again. You could call it The Amazing Bag of Personal Gain and Greed's Suffering or something. That said, the price will probably drop since the value is being mitigated simply by the fact you can "farm" gold off of it.

Doing things in this manner would encourage the character to constantly look for opportunities to barter the items inside for services instead of just going "lol it's paying for itself"

That said...10k =P All in all sounds fun.

[Godskook]

Ok, new question: Of the following, which(and how many) are you willing to forgo to get a cheap price on this item?

1.Easy access to the items stored

2.Reliable access to bare necessities

3.Immunity to pick-pocketing

4.Unlimited direct* source of liquidatable wealth

Cause of those 4, I see #1-3 being the useful ones, and #4 being the one jacking the price up.

*Direct, in the sense that it'd be painfully easy to find buyers for a lot of that stuff, or its actually money. I mean, you're basically wanting to create the Philosopher's stone, here.