How to deal with mundane enemies attacking an invisible PC? (newbie question)

[TuggyNE]

I'm asking this for my DM, who's newer to the game than I am :smallcool:.

Suppose you have a PC with greater invisibility, and some ordinary opponents (advanced orcs or the like) are trying to attack after the PC has revealed their presence by ranged weapon attacks. How would the spot DCs to pinpoint location change if one of them managed to spot the PC and attacked the square? Also, is pinpointing a base of 40, or 20?

Also, any tips on dealing with opponents that fail to spot the PC (should they randomly grope around? run toward an enemy they can see? etc) would probably be appreciated as well.

Note that I am posting this late at night, but hopefully it makes enough sense. :smallyuk:

[HunterOfJello]

Invisibility from the spell isn't perfect. It merely provides a ridiculous bonus to Hide and allows you to hide wherever you like.

The Hide section in the Skills chapter of the PHB gives the information for invisibility.


Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.

~

For pinpointing a person's by using Spot vs. Hide, the person hiding gets a +40 if they aren't moving at all and are completely immobile. If they are attacking people, moving around, or drawing arrows then they only have a +20 bonus.

The enemies would get a Spot vs. Hide check and would also get a Listen vs. Move Silently check to determine the location of the person. Usually it's pretty easy to hear a person reloading a crossbow if there is only 1 visible and 1 non-visible person in the room, but the more people making the noise, the harder the DC for the Listen check.

~~~~

As a DM, once some people hear or see a target that has been attacking them, they generally attempt to alert others of what's going on. The group will start running around shooting arrows and empty spaces and stabbing at them unless they have an idea of which specific space to attack. A DM can pick a set of spaces and roll a d10, d12, or d20 for each npc to choose which random space they run up to and attack or shoot an arrow at.

For each creature that attacks a space with an invisible person in it, there is a 50% chance that they will miss the creature purely based on the creature's concealment from being invisible. (Note: All concealment rolls should be rolled before d20 attack rolls.)

Then, if someone draws blood they can shout out to the others and take appropriate actions towards the invisible creature.

~~~~~~~

The best way to run fights like this, in my opinion, is to think of what humans/orcs/goblins of each group's appropriate intelligence would do and then do that. Orcs might all start attacking everything wildly. Goblins might attack in small group while half of them run away screaming. Humans might run away, all work together, or send someone off to alert a wizard while grabbing tower shields and forming a wall against future arrow attacks. It all depends on the situation.

[gorfnab]

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).


A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.
For mundane creatures the Blindfight feat, scent, and some alchemical items might help in finding invisible enemies. Bags of flour are interesting mundane way of finding invisible enemies.

[Godskook]

1.Here are the rules, they're handy to read in their accurate form. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility)

2.Listen > Spot for fighting against invisible foes. Its DC 0 to realize an invisible, but active, combatant is 'around', and its DC 20 to pinpoint, as a free action. DC 20 for level 5 NPCs(mook level for that PC ECL) is not that hard to make if they have it as a class skill. I mean, with 8 ranks, a +1 or +2 wisdom, and a masterwork item, and you're rocking a +11 or +12 on the roll.

3.Potions of see invisibility are 300gp, scrolls 150. NPC WBL for ECL 5 is 3300, meaning that its within their buying power, but only likely to show up in cases where either: (A)They expect this PC to show up, or (B)they've had experience with invisible people before. Random mooks shouldn't have it, but the minions of a nemesis should, as well as should anyone with any reasonably sized organization such as a temple, guild or the like, at least in the 'munitions room'. Other spells can do this too, but this is the one that the 'common' man would think to grab.

4.A bag of flour is not only a good way of dealing with such a person, but conceptually, its the way 'mundanes' deal with an invisible opponent. I.e., grab something that 'telegraphs' the invisible person's location, and 'inflict it' upon them, if it be a bag of flour, running a layer of water across the floor, or whatever's most handy.

[HunterOfJello]

One more thing. For a DM, it's a very good idea to really sit down and read the PHB, DMG, and parts of the MM from cover to cover. If you're not a person who enjoys that, then DMing a D&D game might not be for you. There are lots of sections that only fully make sense once you put them together. To understand how the Invisibility spell, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, general Invisibility, and how other abilities react to them you need to read a large number of different sections.

Quick Rundown as an example:

-The Invisibility Spell and Greater Invisibility spells are in the PHB. Swift Invisibility is also an important spell and is present in the Spell Compendium.
-Spot has it's own section in the PHB and like the others only makes full sense when read along with its counterpart
-Listen is the same
-Hide is the same
-Move Silently is the same
-Invisibility in general has a full page section on page 295 of the DMG.
-Invisibility is also mentioned in the glossary sections for basic attack bonuses
-Invisibility is also given information in the Combat Section of the PHB
-Blindsight and Blindsense are brought up in the MM and given specific details in the DMG. Both are very effective at finding invisibile creatures.
-Scent is detailed in the MM and in the DMG.
-Tremorsense has the same treatment.

-A few other abilities like Mindsight from the Lords of Madness are also useful against invisible enemies and become relevant at certain times.


In the end, to properly understand how invisibility works in all combat situations for the monsters in the MM, all of this information becomes important. If you don't know all of it, then you can miss out on some of the rules. (Then again, all these rules are meaningless if you're having fun.)

[BobVosh]

2.Listen > Spot for fighting against invisible foes. Its DC 0 to realize an invisible, but active, combatant is 'around', and its DC 20 to pinpoint, as a free action. DC 20 for level 5 NPCs(mook level for that PC ECL) is not that hard to make if they have it as a class skill. I mean, with 8 ranks, a +1 or +2 wisdom, and a masterwork item, and you're rocking a +11 or +12 on the roll.

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

Not quite a DC 20, but rather a DC of their move silently +20

[Elfinor]

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) is the SRD on invisibility (Ninja'd by Godskook) and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) is the Rules of the Game archive. Invisibility rules are referenced under the first two parts of 'There, Not There'. These answers are RAW (unless stated otherwise) but your DM may apply house rules. Just make sure they're written down and applied consistently if that's the case.

It's a bit of a read, so I've done my best to answer your specific questions:

Assuming the PC's are within 30 ft., the base Spot DC to pinpoint is 40. For every 10 feet of distance away the PC's are the DC increases by 1. If the PC's are further away than 30 ft. they cannot be pinpointed with a Spot Check.
You automatically know which square you were attacked from if the attack came from a square less than 5 ft. away.
The Listen DC to pinpoint the PC's is much easier: 20, +1 for every 10 ft. of distance.
Throwing a bag of flour (or something similar) at the square renders the creature renders it visible (DC 20 Reflex save negates)
Assuming a spellcaster is present, Glitterdust, See Invisbilility, Invisibility Purge and, to a lesser extent, Faerie Fire are all useful spells for showing the location of the PC's.


It isn't explicitly stated in the rules, but I'd say that if one opponent managed to pinpoint a PC, then they'd communicate that location to its allies.

@BobVosh: Since the PC's are in combat, they do not apply their Move Silently check to the DC.

EDIT: To clarify what HunterOfJello said, the Spot vs. Hide (+20/40) check is made separately from the above mentioned Spot DC's to sense and pinpoint the invisibility effect, as mentioned in Rules of the Game.

[Godskook]

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

Not quite a DC 20, but rather a DC of their move silently +20

Check the table, those numbers are for moving. I specified combatant, which is listed as a separate entry on the table, one for which no skill check is added to.

[Killer Angel]

Check the table, those numbers are for moving. I specified combatant, which is listed as a separate entry on the table, one for which no skill check is added to.

Nope, that table is for detect the creature. Speaking= automatic success (DC 0).
To pinpoint it, means a +20 in a contest check.

Edit: sorry, you're right: A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location, and the DC for a fighting creature is 0, so...

2nd edit: I wonder if you can fight while moving silently: a Move Silently check requires no action, is included in your movement or other activity, so it is part of another action, including fighting. In this case, the invisible rogue can easily be almost totally undetectable...

[Morithias]

I would also like to point out that in the rules compendium it says "you take a
-20 on hide checks when attacking or charging. So pretty much anytime he attack he has no bonuses to his hide check.

[Godskook]

2nd edit: I wonder if you can fight while moving silently: a Move Silently check requires no action, is included in your movement or other activity, so it is part of another action, including fighting. In this case, the invisible rogue can easily be almost totally undetectable...

I'd imagine a person who moves after attacking would benefit from the move silently check, but that only helps if you're not attacking someone with a readied action and/or you're not getting cocky and moving then attacking.

[Darrin]

Also, any tips on dealing with opponents that fail to spot the PC (should they randomly grope around? run toward an enemy they can see? etc) would probably be appreciated as well.


Any bags of flour or similar powdery substance laying around nearby? Dungeonscape has rules for using flour against invisible opponents: range touch attack vs. square, any creature within the 5' "splash" is coated with flour. A coated creature can be pinpointed in a particular square, gets only a 20% miss chance instead of 50%, and his Hide bonuses are reduced.

Also... Torch Bug Paste (25 GP, Complete Scoundrel p. 120) is awesomesauce on toast. Thrown as a splash weapon, coats creatures within 5' with a non-magical faerie fire effect which negates all concealment (except magical darkness).

[Diefje]

They could probably extrapolate to some degree what general direction the attacks are coming from. Either they can see the projectiles, or they see what side the arrow went in their comrade, or hear something... Getting a sense of direction is easy. Once they get there, they have to somehow pinpoint (listen, spot, grope around, form a search line, etc)

Not to say that they can't completely miss their mark and just walk right past the PC, but it's not like they're just helpless until someone gets a lucky 20.

[CTrees]

My default routine for ranged attacking while invisible has usually been: shoot, attempt to walk silently 1-3 squares in a semi-random direction, repeat. The ability to make a MS check there isn't as questionable.

If I have the weight allowances, and can justify it RP-wise, I almost always have a bag of flour on my low level characters, just in case there are invisible opponents. It's so cheap and easy, it's always been worth it as a backup plan. Actually, I think the only low level character I've played in 3rd or later editions which HASN'T had that was my Large fighter. He was... not the brightest brick, had natural reach, and had a reach weapon, so his strategies against invisible were "ask the party where it is" and "windmill around with his reach weapon until he bangs into something - that's where the bugger is!"

[ericgrau]

Generally you use listen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility), as it's a lot easier than spot. If you succeed, you know the general direction of the invisible dude. If you beat the DC by 20, you know his exact square. Note that if he is fighting or otherwise not sneaking around slowly it's a flat DC of 0, or 20 to find his square. So careless invisible foes are pretty easy to find.

Once the mundane enemy finds the invisible dude he still has a 50% miss chance, but you can effectively cut that in half with the blind fight feat. Considering how common invisibility, blindness, fog, darkness, etc., etc., etc. are once terrain and spells are used as intended (really, there's 1,000 ways to do it so any lack of it is the player's/DM's fault), that feat should be a heck of a lot more popular than it is. Don't be afraid to use it frequently. But I would not give it to anywhere near, say, 50% of foes or you're just picking on your players for being smart. I mean, what about other common tricks the foe might be prepared for instead?

Ya the bag of flour is a classic method too. Maybe not all foes have flour, but some kind of mundane trick involving bombing the invisible guy or spreading X on the floor should likewise be common.

[dspeyer]

If they're expecting invisible enemies (and invisibility magic should be common knowledge in most dnd settings) they might have dogs to do the listening for them. Or even trained bats.

[Gavinfoxx]

Things which can defeat invisibility:

-Visible Clutter in the areas where characters would walk or fly
-Swarms
-Area of effect spells (fireball and such)
-Area of effect alchemical substances
-Fairy Fire
-Torch Bug Paste
-Scent
-Glitterdust
-Dawnburst
-Invisibility Purge
-See Invisible
-Flour bombs or dust bombs or other such things
-Arcane Sight
-Detect Magic
-Detect Invisibility
-True Seeing
-Blindsight
-Blindsense
-Mindsight
-Lifesense
-Touchsight
-A very high listen score can pinpoint invisible creatures
-Spot can actually be used to see invisible
-There is a skill trick which can help spot see invisible
-Large numbers of enemies with nets
-Any sort of light fog or water or snow or whatever which can show movement in the substance could defeat invisibility.
-Cast light on some glue or tar or something in a method that is throwable as a splash weapon, and throw it: the light will stay in the glue, and it will stick to whatever it hits, even something invisible (this is a jury rigged version of Torch Bug Paste).

[deuxhero]

Guard dogs have scent and are cheeper than items of See Invisible.

For that matter, Warblade levels and Hunter's Stace.

[dspeyer]

Scent can detect the presence of strangers, but not their exact location. Dogs can still help listen.

Actually, by RAW, dogs aren't particularly good at listening. +5. No racial bonus. That's pretty silly, and a reasonable DM could fix it. Alternatively, owls or bats.

[Gavinfoxx]

Isn't Survival the skill most appropriate to sense of smell?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Mr. Not-Dumb Orc uses the wide blade of his falchion/greataxe/etc. to scoop up a bunch of dirt and fling it across several squares where he thinks the invisible foe may be. All the Dumb Orcs see the dirt strike something and fall to the ground in the square where the invisible foe is standing, whereas it continues its trajectory across all the other squares. They promptly surround and make wild swings into that square, because Dumb Orcs hate tricksy foes.

[TuggyNE]

Wow, a whole ton of replies.:smalleek: Thanks, guys! I really think this will be ridiculously helpful. :smile:

Given that this is in combat already, the suggestions most relevant seem to be to use listen to pinpoint (that's a flat DC 20 as far as I can tell from the discussion...?), and dirt or something to try to reveal location (since my PC is a pixie, currently flying, that may or may not work, but it's something for them to try at least).

[Godskook]

Its a flat DC 20 provided that their last action was combat-related(such as attacking, casting a spelll or shooting an arrow). If their last action was to move around silently, it can be legitimately argued that they get a skill check for that, but should be penalized appropriately for how far they attempt to move, as laid out in the move silently skill.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Doesn't flying make pinpointing the creature at last a little more hard? :smallconfused:

[Keinnicht]

Random, semi-related question:

If a character is invisible, so are all their possessions. But what if something comes into their possession while they're invisible. Does that object become invisible too? Assuming the object isn't in their pocket or anything.

To use an example:

If an invisible character picked up a visible backpack and put it on, would the backpack become invisible too?

Because if not, a good way to find invisible characters would be to shoot a bunch of arrows in their general direction.

[Gavinfoxx]

You never said anything about an invisible flying character!

ARGH, now I have to add the parts of the list I took out BECAUSE you weren't playing an invisible flying pixie!

Okay, the short of it, the way for a DM to shut down an invisible flying pixie is to make fights where being invisible and flying is not an automatic win condition. Part of this is giving enemies the ability to burrow, for example, so they can just bypass the invisible flyer completely, or having fights take place in cramped quarters, or giving the creature some reason to NOT be flying.

[Curmudgeon]

Its a flat DC 20 provided that their last action was combat-related(such as attacking, casting a spelll or shooting an arrow). If their last action was to move around silently, it can be legitimately argued that they get a skill check for that, but should be penalized appropriately for how far they attempt to move, as laid out in the move silently skill.
It's a flat DC 20, but that's before the constant +5 DC adjustment of the listener being distracted by combat. So really it's DC 25.

Still, that's an excellent reminder that you should attempt to always move after attacking. A 5' adjustment lets you make a Move Silently check, though with a -5 penalty because you're moving the full 5' instead of half that.

[Flickerdart]

Because if not, a good way to find invisible characters would be to shoot a bunch of arrows in their general direction.
The problem with that is that you have a 50% chance to hit them (before you even check against AC) even if you manage to find their square, so you'll need a TON of arrows.

[Godskook]

It's a flat DC 20, but that's before the constant +5 DC adjustment of the listener being distracted by combat. So really it's DC 25.

I take a penalty to listen to you because you're being to loud fighting me? Right!


Still, that's an excellent reminder that you should attempt to always move after attacking. A 5' adjustment lets you make a Move Silently check, though with a -5 penalty because you're moving the full 5' instead of half that.

Actually, the wording used is "normal speed". Far as I know, that's your base speed for that movement mode(flight, land, burrow, swim).

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I take a penalty to listen to you because you're being to loud fighting me? Right!
No. Because everyone else is too loud. The pixie is being attacked by a group and not a single enemy, right? :smallsigh:

[Curmudgeon]

Actually, the wording used is "normal speed". Far as I know, that's your base speed for that movement mode(flight, land, burrow, swim).
Yes, that's your normal speed. Whenever you move faster than half that normal speed, you incur the penalty. Since moving 2.5' or less doesn't get you out of your square, you'll always have a penalty with a 5' adjustment.

[Seffbasilisk]

Nets and Harpoons. Tanglefoot bags to 'trip' you in air, and gum up your wings.

Maybe something like netcutter armor to compensate?

Anything with an AoE you can look at. My first thought was whip-grappling, despite the atrocious penalty to it, just for sheet demonstrative ability.

Glitterdusts component is powdered mica. Theoretically the spell is just to amplify the powers of it, so enough powdered mica in something like a flour pouch, or a slingshot pouch, and just hurl handfuls of it.

Edit: A sprayer, with aboleth mucus in it.

[Fax Celestis]

Surprised no one mentioned AoEs. Burning hands can be a good see invisibility hack.

[TuggyNE]

There's something deeply unsettling about seeing one of your oldest threads pop abruptly back onto the scene.

And, unfortunately, the PbP in question is long defunct.

[Gavinfoxx]

There's something deeply unsettling about seeing one of your oldest threads pop abruptly back onto the scene.

And, unfortunately, the PbP in question is long defunct.

I think I did it. I linked to this thread in another invisibility thread, and I didn't think that people would actually reply to it!