Theurges

[Little Brother]

I know they suck, but they're one of my favorite builds ever. How can one optimize one? Preferably using Divine Crusader and Warmage, but eh. Can it be done well?

[Andvare]

Somethingarcane 5/Ur-Priest 2


Edit: With the two classes you want, it's pretty much redundant going after Theurge. The 7 BAB req for the divine crusader means you will be invested quite heavily in the arcane class before you even can get near the Theurge.

[Little Brother]

Somethingarcane 5/Ur-Priest 2Sorry, I meant beyond the one used in every double-nine build. Same with BM.

[sirpercival]

Well, if you can use Dragon Mag material, theurges are very optimizable thanks to Dragon 325.

But even without that stuff I've done a couple of theurge builds with Divine Crusader:

Crusader 7/Divine Crusader 1/Sovereign Speaker 4/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 6 (need to get a 2nd-level spell onto the Demonbinder list)
Crusader 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Warrior Skald 1/Divine Crusader 1/Divine Oracle 1/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8 for double 9's.

There's also:
Wizard 1/Druid 3/MT 3/Arcane Heirophant 10/MT +3 for double 9's on a heirophant build, and toss in Druid Theurgy and Theurgic Companion from dragon 325 to be just awesome.

[Andvare]

Well, problem is, as I see it, that you would have to go with Warmage 5 (usually the level where you can get most PrCs) and then 5 levels of some sort of primary BAB/arcane or 7 level of secondary BAB/arcane, with the possibility of loosing a helluva lot of CLs.

Or Warmage 4/ Primary BAB 5 / Divine Crusader 2.
For a total loss of 7 CLs arcane, and 9 divine. Quite a lot.


Edit: And that is one reason why my group never allows Dragon Magazine ;)

[sirpercival]

Yeah, if you want to do divine crusader you have to mix it with another fast-progression class, otherwise you just lose too many caster levels.

[sirpercival]

Edit: And that is one reason why my group never allows Dragon Magazine ;)

Well, my builds are completely viable without it, but those two feats are nice.

[Psyren]

Dunno about Warmage but it can be done with Bard:

Bard 7/Abjurant Champion 2/Divine Crusader 2/Sublime Chord 1/MT 8 will get you dual 9s, Cha-SAD.

- Bard 7 gets you the +5 BAB and the martial weapon (rapier) needed for Abjurant Champion
- AC 2 gets you to +7 BAB, which you need for DC
- You qualify for Sublime Chord at 10, but you need another DC level to get into MT
- MT 8 advances DC casting to 10 and SC casting to 9, resulting in dual 9s.

[dextercorvia]

I know they suck, but they're one of my favorite builds ever. How can one optimize one? Preferably using Divine Crusader and Warmage, but eh. Can it be done well?

Why Divine Crusader and Warmage? I can get you double nines if you aren't allergic to early entry cheese.

Warmage4/EldritchKnight3/AbjurantChampion1/DivineCrusader1/MysticTheurge9/AbjChampion+2

Be a Neraph -- Outsider Type gets you MWP (all). Take Versatile Spellcaster, and if you are an unbeliever, a Bloodline feat -- gets you 3rd level spells at 4th level. Eldritch Knight 1 gives you a bonus feat to take Weapon Focus with.

You lose two casting levels from Warmage, but that still gets you 9ths, on that side.

[marcielle]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you want something that combines 2 different powers? Jade Phoenix mage is an awesome gish. Just take Crusader and Duskblade. Crusaders already rock and become even MORE powerful with gishing . If you have full psio-arcane transparency, ask your DM if you can try something wierd like Crusader/Psionic Warrior. An Ardent with Practiced Manifester will allow you to go through out hte build without losing a single manifester level. Spiked chain wielding crusader manifesting augmented Expansion gets to threaten a huge area and debuff(sorta) anyone trying to hit allies in his threatened area, making him an ubertank. It ain't 9/9 divine-arcane, but I'm assuming you want to have fun rather than break the game. Swordsages have better stat synergy but desert wind is usually frowned upon by optimizers. Not to say it isn't fun though.

[Little Brother]

I'm liking the builds so far. You guys are awesome.

What are some good feats? Alternative Spell Source, I know, but it doesn't work with spontaneous theurges. Speaking of which...

How about spontaneous theurges? Sublime Chord/something? Is it practical, or even possible without Beholder Mage?

Just realized Divine Crusader is prepared, though it really doesn't matter given the list they have.

[dextercorvia]

I'm liking the builds so far. You guys are awesome.

What are some good feats? Alternative Spell Source, I know, but it doesn't work with spontaneous theurges. Speaking of which...

How about spontaneous theurges? Sublime Chord/something? Is it practical, or even possible without Beholder Mage?

Just realized Divine Crusader is prepared, though it really doesn't matter given the list they have.

Southern Magician does the trick.

Bard1/FavoredSoul9/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge9

[Little Brother]

Southern Magician? Book?

And is there an Alternative Spell Source-esque feat for spontaneous theurges?

[Morph Bark]

Southern Magician does the trick.

Bard1/FavoredSoul9/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge9

That is a surprisingly elegant build.

[Little Brother]

That is a surprisingly elegant build.Wait a sec. How does it have 2nd level Arcane spells? I see 0, 4, and 5th level arcane spells, but not 2nd.

[dextercorvia]

Southern Magician? Book?

And is there an Alternative Spell Source-esque feat for spontaneous theurges?

PGtF Cast arcane as divine or vice versa X times per day.


That is a surprisingly elegant build.

Thanks -- I think.

I forgot to mention taking Initiate of Milil.

[Little Brother]

PGtF Cast arcane as divine or vice versa X times per day.Oh, I see. Nice. Very nice build.




I forgot to mention taking Initiate of Milil.Why? It only applies with Cleric and Paladin levels.

[Urpriest]

Wait a sec. How does it have 2nd level Arcane spells? I see 0, 4, and 5th level arcane spells, but not 2nd.

Same way it gets into Sublime Chord, Southern Magician (which is from an FR book, don't remember which).

[Little Brother]

Same way it gets into Sublime Chord, Southern Magician (which is from an FR book, don't remember which).Ah, found it. Races of Faerun. once a day per 2 caster levels.

[dextercorvia]

Oh, I see. Nice. Very nice build.



Why? It only applies with Cleric and Paladin levels.

Dragon Magic. Page 15.