Light and Vision

[ILM]

I'm playing a campaign set in the night, so I'd like to make sure I have all the facets of darkness and vision right. Check my reasoning, please:
- there are only three "official" grades of light: bright, shadowy, and darkness.
- in bright and shadowy areas, the distance one can see depends on the brightness of the light source. Low-Light Vision lets you see twice as far.
- in darkness, you're blinded unless you have darkvision
As per here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#visionAndLight).

Now here's a few questions. First:
- "Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day." So is a moonlit night shadowy or bright for them? If it's bright, how does that work? I thought Low-Light Vision only extended the range you could see at, not bump you up a category.
- what's "darkness"? It it only complete obscurity, blindfolded in a coffin-black? Is a forest in a moonless night "darkness"? How about a plain?
- how far can normal characters see in a moonlit night anyway?

If there are no complete and coherent rules on the subject (which I suspect), how would you deal with it?

[Diefje]

Now here's a few questions. First:
- "Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day." So is a moonlit night shadowy or bright for them? If it's bright, how does that work? I thought Low-Light Vision only extended the range you could see at, not bump you up a category.
- what's "darkness"? It it only complete obscurity, blindfolded in a coffin-black? Is a forest in a moonless night "darkness"? How about a plain?
- how far can normal characters see in a moonlit night anyway?

If there are no complete and coherent rules on the subject (which I suspect), how would you deal with it?
Moonlit night would be bright for lowlight vision. They can see normally, as in, it's the same as during the day.

Darkness is no light at all. If there's moonlight, it's not dark. If that moonlight is blocked by superdense jungle, it's dark.

Normal people can see properly at night as by the illumination rules you posted, except everything is shadowy afterwards. In shadowy conditions you can still see just as far, the only difference is that others can Hide because they have Concealment (20% miss) just by it being shadowy. And you'll need to beat their check to see them.

[Cieyrin]

The DMG gives guidelines on sight distances based on terrain type, which will give you an idea of how far you can make out anything meaningful.

For Low-Light Vision, its benefits are two-fold: they can see further and they can make out detail in that lighting, unlike normal or darkvision. The second is more fluff than anything, as it still provides concealment and allow creatures to Hide as a consequence, its just a nice perk.

[Yora]

Low-light vision allows you to see with only half the amount of light compared to humans. A candle or a torch has only a limited radius that it actually illuminates.
Moonlight however illuminates everything. My torch can't illuminate something that is a mile away, but moonlight makes it visible without problem.

You could also say, that there are more than 3 levels of light.
1. Bright / Bright
2. Shadowy / Bright
3. Darkness / Shadowy
4. Darkness / Darkness

A torch illuminates 3 circles around it. The first is bright for everyone, the second shadowy for normal sight and bright for low-light vision, and the third dark for normal sight and shadowy for low-light vision.

[Seharvepernfan]

I live in woods, and I have to say, a forest on a cloudy or otherwise moonless night may as well be a cave. You can't see your hand in front of your face.

[ILM]

See, there's my issue, kinda. Let's assume that my group is in a dense forest, at night.

If I rule it's shadowy illumination, humans can see but get a miss chance, and elves (for instance) can see just fine, out tou about 50 or 60 feet because that's about as far as you can see in a forest.

If I rule it's dark, neither of them can see anything. There's a sort of discontinuity there; I was expecting there'd be a level where elves see poorly and humans can't see jack, and it seems it just isn't there.

Also, if I rule it's dark, wolves can't even function in the forest, which suddenly makes me wonder how all these animals manage on moonless nights.

[Fallbot]

Also, if I rule it's dark, wolves can't even function in the forest, which suddenly makes me wonder how all these animals manage on moonless nights.

By being diurnal, I would imagine.

Edit: I tell a lie, they're crepuscular. Same difference.

[Necroticplague]

Also, if I rule it's dark, wolves can't even function in the forest, which suddenly makes me wonder how all these animals manage on moonless nights.
Easy, scent/blindsight/tremorsense/blindsense/mindsight/tougchsight

[Cieyrin]

Easy, scent/blindsight/tremorsense/blindsense/mindsight/tougchsight

Wolves with Touchsight? My gods, we're all doomed! :smalleek:

[Yora]

Trees do cast shadows, even in moonlight.

I've been in forests at night and that's a completely different story from standing in a field at night. I assume "can see normal in moonlight" refers to areas that are actually open to the sky. Even a moderate forest canopy would block most moonlight, probably making it shadowy for creatures with LLV.

[CactusAir]

Okay question: LLV lets you see twice as far as a normal human can see in shadowy light.

How far can a normal human see? I can't find the entry anywhere....

[Diefje]

Okay question: LLV lets you see twice as far as a normal human can see in shadowy light.

How far can a normal human see? I can't find the entry anywhere....

Spot DC increases by 1 per 10ft. So a normal peasant wouldn't be able to see the broad side of a barn from 250ft away unless he got lucky. An Archer would have a hard time seeing anything at 3-4x his range increment.

It's a little silly, I suggest some houseruling.

[Seharvepernfan]

Okay question: LLV lets you see twice as far as a normal human can see in shadowy light.

How far can a normal human see? I can't find the entry anywhere....

LLV requires a light source, and light sources are bright within the first area increment, shadowy in the second, and after that its dark again.

So if an elf and a human are in a dark area, they can't see at all. However, the book is kinda saying that the moon gives off shadowy light and for an elf its considered bright.

Neither one of them can see on a moonless night in a forest. I don't think wolves and dogs can see in the dark, so it'd be the same for them.

Anywho, to see, you need a light source. No light source, no sight, whether you have LLV or not.

[ILM]

Okay question: LLV lets you see twice as far as a normal human can see in shadowy light.

How far can a normal human see? I can't find the entry anywhere....
Basically, whether in bright or shadowy light, the game assumes you can see as far as the horizon provided there's nothing to block your sight. The Environment section then details how far you can see in different environments.

None of this has any bearing on low-light vision though, since LLV or no, you can't see through the thick brush and trees in a forest beyond X feet. LLV only extends the ranges for point light sources, such as torches and lanterns and spells.

[ILM]

By being diurnal, I would imagine.

Edit: I tell a lie, they're crepuscular. Same difference.
... Ok, you got me, but the point stands. Boars are occasionally norcturnal (Wikipedia to the rescue! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_boar#Behaviour.2Fsocial_structure)) and they only get LLV. Cats, too. 3.5 really doesn't handle sight very well. :smallannoyed:

[CactusAir]

Basically, whether in bright or shadowy light, the game assumes you can see as far as the horizon provided there's nothing to block your sight. The Environment section then details how far you can see in different environments.

None of this has any bearing on low-light vision though, since LLV or no, you can't see through the thick brush and trees in a forest beyond X feet. LLV only extends the ranges for point light sources, such as torches and lanterns and spells.

So basically an elf treats a torch as having bright to 40 and shadowy to 80?

Or just Shadowy to 80 if we're being literal?

That is the only interpretation I came up with, but it seems convoluted and messed up.

[Necroticplague]

... Ok, you got me, but the point stands. Boars are occasionally norcturnal (Wikipedia to the rescue! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_boar#Behaviour.2Fsocial_structure)) and they only get LLV. Cats, too. 3.5 really doesn't handle sight very well. :smallannoyed:

Note that both of them also have scent. Besides, if we want to talk realism, then a cat's eye functions exactly like llv (I know nothing about wild boars, though). It reflects light coming back out of it, so they would be just as screwed if their was no light as a human would. What I don't get is how darkvision works. If their is no light for the eyes to use, what exactly lets them see (though it made some sense back when it was infravision).

[Milo v3]

(though it made some sense back when it was infravision).
I guess it made some sense but here (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/infravision.html)are some serious problems with it (written by Sean Reynolds).

[ILM]

Note that both of them also have scent. Besides, if we want to talk realism, then a cat's eye functions exactly like llv (I know nothing about wild boars, though). It reflects light coming back out of it, so they would be just as screwed if their was no light as a human would. What I don't get is how darkvision works. If their is no light for the eyes to use, what exactly lets them see (though it made some sense back when it was infravision).
Sure. My argument is simply that there are circumstances where I can't see anything at night (for example, the coffee table I'm about to kick) while kitty's happily jumping all over the furniture. Or, in D&D terms: the darkness I'm in only seems like shadowy illumination to Feline McCat, without any point source. That's not something that seems to exist in the game.

[Cieyrin]

What I don't get is how darkvision works. If their is no light for the eyes to use, what exactly lets them see (though it made some sense back when it was infravision).

It's magic, physics need not apply. As has already been linked, Infravision doesn't work as intended by thermodynamics, so darkvision was to avoid the situation entirely and make a mechanic that just works, science be damned. There's no light involved, you just see up to your range in black and white.