Race Questions: Dwarves

[Tokuhara]

Starting with Urdunnir Dwarves. Why do they get a 4LA? Seriously? Same racial traits as normal dwarves, with 3 cool but not very powerful abilities. Seriously?? So you can walk through walls, manipulate rocks and a little bit of metal. You are still behind the curve...

Can someone explain this travesty, and how could I PF-ize these guys?

[Zeta Kai]

Talk to your DM. That LA is somewhat ridiculous, as most LAs are. Explain how the character will be grossly behind others in the party because of that handicap, & see if you can get them to lower it a bit. He/She may ask you to take a different penalty, such as lower ability scores, slower land speed, or fewer Urdunnir-based traits.

That "walk-through-walls" thing is not an easy thing to dismiss though, to be fair. Abilities like that wreak havoc with game design, as it can obviate or otherwise make irrelevant so many dungeons & other challenges. I can actually see where WotC was coming from on that one. I don't think that it would be appropriate to take this thread to your DM as "proof" that you should get this trait cheaper. It's a powerful ability, & it should come at some cost. You might be better off asking to buy-off the LA at a slower rate, rather than taking it all at once at the outset.

As for Pathfinder, I'm gonna punt to someone with greater expertise. You probably don't have to do anything, but I'm not a PF expert by any means.

[Tokuhara]

Talk to your DM. That LA is somewhat ridiculous, as most LAs are. Explain how the character will be grossly behind others in the party because of that handicap, & see if you can get them to lower it a bit. He/She may ask you to take a different penalty, such as lower ability scores, slower land speed, or fewer Urdunnir-based traits.

That "walk-through-walls" thing is not an easy thing to dismiss though, to be fair. Abilities like that wreak havoc with game design, as it can obviate or otherwise make irrelevant so many dungeons & other challenges. I can actually see where WotC was coming from on that one. I don't think that it would be appropriate to take this thread to your DM as "proof" that you should get this trait cheaper. It's a powerful ability, & it should come at some cost. You might be better off asking to buy-off the LA at a slower rate, rather than taking it all at once at the outset.

As for Pathfinder, I'm gonna punt to someone with greater expertise. You probably don't have to do anything, but I'm not a PF expert by any means.

The Earth Glide ability only works on Stone, so wooden walls, metal walls, or even a wall of cloth defeats the ability. Stone and Metal shape are limited, and they get a whopping +4 to saves vs. Poison. I understand that these abilities could tilt a dungeon-crawl in my favour, but honestly, Two of the lesser abilities of an Earth Elemental are not really worth 4LA. Maybe 2 at best. Like Drow or Karsite, Urdunnir dwarves are moderately more powerful than a "standard" race, capable of rivaling Human on a power scale.

[faceroll]

Earth glide gives you a huge tactical advantage.

[Tokuhara]

Earth glide gives you a huge tactical advantage.

Compared to a Human's Bonus Feat? Outsider Type? Overwhelming Ability Scores? RHD Stack with caster levels?

I think while it is a cool tactical ability, it has a limited market

[faceroll]

Compared to a Human's Bonus Feat? Outsider Type? Overwhelming Ability Scores? RHD Stack with caster levels?

I think while it is a cool tactical ability, it has a limited market

What does that human bonus feat do for you at first level? Does it let you become untargetable in virtually every terrain?

[Lapak]

Compared to a Human's Bonus Feat? Outsider Type? Overwhelming Ability Scores? RHD Stack with caster levels?

I think while it is a cool tactical ability, it has a limited market
It's easily better than a single feat in isolation. The others depend more on the situation, but it's honestly a very potent ability for a PC to have as an At-Will power.

In any environment with earth and/or stone components, you can:
- bypass doors, pits, traps, and potential choke-points for an ambush.
- gain full cover against attacks, spells or effects as a move action
- scout ahead with minimal risk of being trapped alone
- auto-detect secret passageways or hiding places by cruising around in the walls a bit
- flee the area entirely with almost no chance of capture

Each of those independently can be a game-changer, particularly since it costs neither skill ranks nor spell slots. Taken all together, that's a seriously strong ability. It doesn't remain relevant forever, and obviously there are countermeasures possible, but it's immediately, obviously strong. Probably not 4 LA strong, I'll admit - that's pretty out there - but it's definitely worth a level adjustment, particularly for non-caster builds.

[Cieyrin]

The Earth Glide ability only works on Stone, so wooden walls, metal walls, or even a wall of cloth defeats the ability. Stone and Metal shape are limited, and they get a whopping +4 to saves vs. Poison. I understand that these abilities could tilt a dungeon-crawl in my favour, but honestly, Two of the lesser abilities of an Earth Elemental are not really worth 4LA. Maybe 2 at best. Like Drow or Karsite, Urdunnir dwarves are moderately more powerful than a "standard" race, capable of rivaling Human on a power scale.

Metal walls are expensive and can be Metal Shaped. Cloth walls aren't exactly an obstacle. Wood walls are the biggest problem for them, as they're fairly prevalent in civilized areas. Earth Gliding is a very powerful ability, which typically doesn't show up till mid-levels in player hands, so its warranted that they have some counterbalance to that. +4 may be a bit much but +2 is too little. They seem firmly +3 to me.

If you want to Pathfinderize them, I'd have a look at the Advanced Race Playtest to eyeball how it works but the core races basically equate to what would be LA +1 in 3.5. The Urdunnir would not come out anything like they are if you want them on the same power level as other core races, since LA doesn't technically exist in PF.

[Pilo]

It's true, after all, being able at will to push something in the earth or in a wall with a bullrush or a trip and killing it like that in 3 rounds is not that powerful.

[Tokuhara]

It's true, after all, being able at will to push something in the earth or in a wall with a bullrush or a trip and killing it like that in 3 rounds is not that powerful.

You can't. It explicitly says he can only move himself and his gear through stone

[Darth_Versity]

Ask your DM to give the race slightly different abilities.

Urdunnir dwarves have all the dwarven racial traits listed in the
Player’s Handbook, except as follows:
• +4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison: Urdunnirs are even more resistant to toxins than other dwarves.
• Stone Walk (Su): Urdunnirs can pass through stone and earth as if it were air. They can carry up to twice their own body weight with them in this manner. Urdunnirs (and anyone carried with them) cannot breathe while within stone or earth and must hold their breath while traveling in this manner. Urdunnirs may use this ability for up to 1 minute per character level each day. Each use of this ability counts as at least 1 minute.
• Stone Shape (Sp): Once per day per character level as an 8th-level sorcerer.
• Shape Metal (Sp): Once per day per character level as an 8th-level sorcerer once per round. This power works just like the shape metal spell (see the appendix), except that urdunnirs can only affect 5 cubic feet of metal. Using this ability is a full-round action.
• Automatic Languages: Dwarven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: By region.
• Favored Class: Expert.
• Level Adjustment: +1: Urdunnirs have the ability to walk through stone and earth and two unusual spell-like abilities. They are more powerful and gain levels more slowly than the common races of Faerûn. See Table 1 in the Introduction for more information.

That would make them much more playable (and less of a headache for the dm) at lower levels but not make the abilities useless at higher levels.

[Tokuhara]

Ask your DM to give the race slightly different abilities.

Urdunnir dwarves have all the dwarven racial traits listed in the
Player’s Handbook, except as follows:
• +4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison: Urdunnirs are even more resistant to toxins than other dwarves.
• Stone Walk (Su): Urdunnirs can pass through stone and earth as if it were air. They can carry up to twice their own body weight with them in this manner. Urdunnirs (and anyone carried with them) cannot breathe while within stone or earth and must hold their breath while traveling in this manner. Urdunnirs may use this ability for up to 1 minute per character level each day. Each use of this ability counts as at least 1 minute.
• Stone Shape (Sp): Once per day per character level as an 8th-level sorcerer.
• Shape Metal (Sp): Once per day per character level as an 8th-level sorcerer once per round. This power works just like the shape metal spell (see the appendix), except that urdunnirs can only affect 5 cubic feet of metal. Using this ability is a full-round action.
• Automatic Languages: Dwarven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: By region.
• Favored Class: Expert.
• Level Adjustment: +1: Urdunnirs have the ability to walk through stone and earth and two unusual spell-like abilities. They are more powerful and gain levels more slowly than the common races of Faerûn. See Table 1 in the Introduction for more information.

That would make them much more playable (and less of a headache for the dm) at lower levels but not make the abilities useless at higher levels.

It's cool. Well done modding the abilities. If PF-ized, maybe extend the time for the Earth Glide to 1 minute+Con Modifier min/day

[ericgrau]

The thing is you simply cannot give out powerful abilities like that to low level characters. Stone walk + at will stone shape is a dungeon bypasser. I'm not normally a fan of LA buyoff, but it was made for things like this. Or any scheme you can come up with that eventually lowers the LA until it's finally ~1 by epic level. Or by whenever a 55,000 gp cloak of etherealness is a minor expense.

Darth also has the right idea; anything you can do to eliminate low/high level disparity works. In fact, given the small volume affected by each casting of stone shape even 20/day is a downgrade from at will. I mean an 8x3 door through a typical 3 foot stone wall is already 72 cubic feet: 4-7 stone shapes.

For conversion to pathfinder I'd drop the LA by 1 and call it a day.

[Tokuhara]

The thing is you simply cannot give out powerful abilities like that to low level characters. Stone walk + at will stone shape is a dungeon bypasser. I'm not normally a fan of LA buyoff, but it was made for things like this. Or any scheme you can come up with that eventually lowers the LA until it's finally ~1 by epic level. Or by whenever a 55,000 gp cloak of etherealness is a minor expense.

Darth also has the right idea; anything you can do to eliminate low/high level disparity works. I don't think I'd upgrade stone walk to allow other characters to come with him though; that's what stone shape is for. In fact, given the small volume affected by each casting of stone shape even 20/day is a downgrade from at will. I mean an 8x3 door through a typical 3 foot stone wall is already 72 cubic feet: 4-7 stone shapes.

For conversion to pathfinder I'd drop the LA by 1 and call it a day.

Maybe you could drop Stone/Metal Shape?

[ericgrau]

Post fixed, as the existing ability already lets you carry others; it's not an upgrade. Stone shape merely allows an additional way to royally screw over the DM's dungeon.

[Tokuhara]

Post fixed, as the existing ability already lets you carry others; it's not an upgrade. Stone shape merely allows an additional way to royally screw over the DM's dungeon.

OK.

Question 2:

The dwarves shown in Mind's Eye are psionic and get a +2 INT. Would they make good Warblades? If so, what combination is best?

[hex0]

Hold on, what is a cloth wall? :smallconfused:

[Zeta Kai]

Hold on, what is a cloth wall? :smallconfused:

Like a tent, I guess. Or a regular stone wall with a tapestry on it. Which just about never happens until a player gets some power like this.

[Cieyrin]

Like a tent, I guess. Or a regular stone wall with a tapestry on it. Which just about never happens until a player gets some power like this.

I'm not seeing where this is stopping them from coming through, it just makes you cut your way through. It's cloth, for crying out loud. The only thing is that you'd pop out and have to blunder around till you dealt with it or wen tback into the wall.

[nedz]

Starting with Urdunnir Dwarves. Why do they get a 4LA? Seriously? Same racial traits as normal dwarves, with 3 cool but not very powerful abilities. Seriously?? So you can walk through walls, manipulate rocks and a little bit of metal. You are still behind the curve...

Can someone explain this travesty, and how could I PF-ize these guys?

You could split out their abilities into 3 or 4 racial levels, with the more powerful abilities assigned to the higher levels. You start at first level without the Earth Glide/Stone Shape/Metal shape etc. Ideally you would start as a LA+0 Dwarf. You then take some other class levels until the DM agrees that you can take the higher level levels/powers. This allows the DM to create low level challanges that you cannot just walk past. The trouble is most of these powers would be at the higher end of this scale.
To get Earth Glide by other means requires something like 10 levels. Stone Shape and Metal Shape are a bit like being an 8th level Sorceror.
Frankly I think you'd be better making a regular dwarf and getting these powers (amonst others) via the relevant classes, so YMMV

[Urpriest]

You can't. It explicitly says he can only move himself and his gear through stone

I think that was an Old Lob reference. Old build by Akal Saris that used a crappy PrC that gave an earth glide ability combined with a dungeoncrashing werespider to be an effective and well-loved hit and run combatant.