[3.5] Help a newer player with a Battle Bard?

[SpecialK47150]

Alright, I'm a bit of a new D&D player. I've played a few different campaigns casually with some friends, but I don't think the DM was a huge rule stickler. Anyhow, about to play an online campaign with some guys over skype, and I'm wanting to play a bard, though I'd like to be involved in the combat a bit. From perusing the forums, I see Snowflake Wardance is a big thing. Is it from a 3.5 book? We can use anything 3.5 afaik.

Anyways, sorry for the rambling. What I am asking is help for building a bard that can both play support, but get involved in the combat. I am currently going with halfling for my race atm.

[Zombimode]

Snowflake Wardance is in Frostburn. You burn 1 bardic music and gain +Cha-mod on damage, roughly.

[Bloodgruve]

Inspire Courage is good for jumping into melee and you can boost it quite a bit. I'm no expert but this is what I know

*Badge of Valor, Magic Item Compendium +1 IC
*Inspirational Boost, Spell Compendium +1 IC
*Song of the Heart feat, Ebberon +1IC
*Words of Creation, Book of Exulted Deeds, Doubles IC bonus! Talk to your DM first ;)

*Melodic Casting feat is nice to have, Cast spells while maintaining a song.
*Silverbrow Human with Dragonfire Inspiration feat from Dragon Magic turns the +'s from IC into d6's dmg for everyone!
*Snowflake Wardance is +CHA to attack rolls instead of damage.
*Song of the White Raven feat with Warblade class out of Tome of Battle will allow you to start your song as a swift action and give you Warblade maneuvers. Warblade levels add to bard levels for IC.

There is more you can do but these are pretty strong options, but this is just from memory. A bard in my party is 8th level and is currently givings us +5 to each atk and dmg roll.. That is nice.

GL
Blood~

[SpecialK47150]

Alright, thanks guys.

For now I'm wanting to just stay Bard, no multiclassing as of yet.

[Bloodgruve]

The issue that our bard is facing is that he has to burn a round starting his song, being able to initiate your song as a swift action gives you a lot of options. Just a suggestion ;)

GL
Blood~

[Darrin]

Snowflake Wardance is in Frostburn. You burn 1 bardic music and gain +Cha-mod on damage, roughly.

Snowflake Wardance grants your Cha bonus on just attacks, actually, not damage. Slippers of Battle Dancing (33750 GP, DMGII) give you Cha bonus on attacks and damage.

Snowflake Wardance is actually a bit of a trap. First, it restricts you to one-handed slashing weapons, which nerfs your damage output (gishes do best with two-handed weapons, where you can still get Power Attack multipliers and let go with one hand to cast spells as a free action if need be). You can try TWF with one-handed/light slashing weapons, bards don't get enough feats to really do that kind of combat style justice. Second, it doesn't provide any bonus damage, and it can be difficult to fit in Dragonfire Inspiration/Inspire Courage optimization at the same time.

I'd take Arcane Strike first. You tend to have more spell slots than Bardic Music, and it gives you both an attack bonus and extra damage.

Do you want a straight-up Bard 20, or are you looking to go Bardblaster with something like Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10?

Is ToB available? I think the typical BardBlade (Bard + Warblade) is Bard 4/Warblade 16, although Bard 4/Crusader 16 also works with Song of the White Raven.

I also love me some Jade Phoenix Mage: Bard 3/Warblade 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 1/Jade Phoenix Mage +9 is all sorts of fun.

[SpecialK47150]

Yeah, you've lost me.

Alright, I'm just wanting to stick to straight bard. Currently I'm rolling a halfling bard, so I'll have the dex bonus. How should I build it to be able to hold its own in combat?

[Hazzardevil]

I would take a level in Crusader or Warblade if you can, it doesn't detract from Bard abilities much and lets you get WRT and other useful maneuvers.

[Optimator]

Boosting your attack bonus with Inspire Courage and Power-Attacking it away with a two-hander is a good route. That way also lets you put less points in Charisma and more in Strength. Arcane Strike isn't bad, but Bards don't get as many spells per day as other classes and you may feel the pinch. Some spells are really good for battle bards. What level do you start at and how far do you think you'll go?

[CactusAir]

Snowflake wardance requires you use only 1-handed weapons, and adds CHA to attack, not damage.

A Bard 6/Crusader14 with Song of the White Raven and snowflake wardance can dish out pretty well. Get Dragonfire Inspiration for bonus damage, and use Aura of Chaos to boost it.

[Bloodgruve]

This is going to sound strange but I would build a Feral templated Strongheart Halfling (1 extra feat like humans)...

Feral gives LA+1 (which you buy off at lvl 3 I believe), Savage Species book 3.0, LA buyoff in Unearthed Arcana.
+4 str, -2dex, -4 Int, +2 wis
Grab, pounce, rake, and rend as your HD improve and... Fast Healing!

This would give you 2+ natural attacks to start and your hands would be free for casting. More attacks make more use with Inspire Courage +'s and you don't need TWF or exotic prof's to use them. You can always pick up a sword when your BAB lends it to more attacks too. Natural Weapons are Finesse'able if you want to push dex. As you level just start adding natural attacks with items and spells ;)

Take; Bard 1>Warblade1>BardX
Feats would be Melodic Casting> Song of the Heart> Song of the White Raven>Imp Natural Weapon (Claws)>>>

This is probably not optimized the best but it has a flavor of its own.

GL
Blood~

[Darrin]

Alright, I'm just wanting to stick to straight bard. Currently I'm rolling a halfling bard, so I'll have the dex bonus. How should I build it to be able to hold its own in combat?

See if Strongheart halfling is available (for the bonus feat). Otherwise, Glimmerskin Halfling (Dragon Magic) or Dragonborn of Bahumat Water Halfling (Races of the Dragon and Unearthed Arcana) would work well with Dragonfire Inspiration:

Feats:
1) Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic)
3) Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting)
6) Melodic Casting (Complete Mage)
9) Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior)
12) Heighten Spell (for alter self)
15) Minor Shapeshift (Complete Mage)
18) Battle Dancer (PHBII)

You have a Strength penalty, and unless you went Dragonborn Water Halfling, your Constitution isn't going to be all that impressive. So you're not exactly a front-line tank. You'll probably have more success contributing to combat with debuffing (tripping with whips) or battlefield control (reach weapon, alchemical/splash weapons).

For weapons, consider starting with a longspear + spiked gauntlet (both simple weapons, plus two-handed and reach). Otherwise, if you have a decent Str bonus, try wielding a longsword two-handed. If you don't have a Str bonus, consider wielding a whip-dagger (A&EG) + spiked gauntlet instead.

You may have better luck with ranged/thrown weapons (you are, after all, deadly with a pebble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html)). Keep a sling or some javelins handy.

At 4th level, you have access to master's touch (Spell Compendium), which can give you proficiency with more interesting martial/exotic weapons. Jovar (Planar Handbook) is a pretty decent two-handed weapon with a good crit range. Orc shotputs (A&EG) can be loads of fun.

Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC) lets you wield medium-sized weapons, and Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8000 GP, MIC) gives you TWF if you want to get in on some Snowflake Wardance. Steadfast Boots (1400 GP, MIC) + any two-handed weapon is great vs. charges.

For armor, ask your DM how he feels about chain shirt + dastana + chahar-aina (the latter may count as medium armor, in which case save up for feycraft/githcraft to reduce ASF to 0%). Otherwise, save up for a darkleaf breastplate (counts as light armor, cheaper than mithral). If you want something heavier, then consider the Battle Caster feat (Complete Arcane) + darkleaf full plate/heavy plate/mechanus gear/etc.

[SpecialK47150]

See if Strongheart halfling is available (for the bonus feat). Otherwise, Glimmerskin Halfling (Dragon Magic) or Dragonborn of Bahumat Water Halfling (Races of the Dragon and Unearthed Arcana) would work well with Dragonfire Inspiration:

Feats:
1) Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic)
3) Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting)
6) Melodic Casting (Complete Mage)
9) Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior)
12) Heighten Spell (for alter self)
15) Minor Shapeshift (Complete Mage)
18) Battle Dancer (PHBII)

You have a Strength penalty, and unless you went Dragonborn Water Halfling, your Constitution isn't going to be all that impressive. So you're not exactly a front-line tank. You'll probably have more success contributing to combat with debuffing (tripping with whips) or battlefield control (reach weapon, alchemical/splash weapons).

For weapons, consider starting with a longspear + spiked gauntlet (both simple weapons, plus two-handed and reach). Otherwise, if you have a decent Str bonus, try wielding a longsword two-handed. If you don't have a Str bonus, consider wielding a whip-dagger (A&EG) + spiked gauntlet instead.

You may have better luck with ranged/thrown weapons (you are, after all, deadly with a pebble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html)). Keep a sling or some javelins handy.

At 4th level, you have access to master's touch (Spell Compendium), which can give you proficiency with more interesting martial/exotic weapons. Jovar (Planar Handbook) is a pretty decent two-handed weapon with a good crit range. Orc shotputs (A&EG) can be loads of fun.

Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC) lets you wield medium-sized weapons, and Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8000 GP, MIC) gives you TWF if you want to get in on some Snowflake Wardance. Steadfast Boots (1400 GP, MIC) + any two-handed weapon is great vs. charges.

For armor, ask your DM how he feels about chain shirt + dastana + chahar-aina (the latter may count as medium armor, in which case save up for feycraft/githcraft to reduce ASF to 0%). Otherwise, save up for a darkleaf breastplate (counts as light armor, cheaper than mithral). If you want something heavier, then consider the Battle Caster feat (Complete Arcane) + darkleaf full plate/heavy plate/mechanus gear/etc.


If I took the strongheart, wouldn't the extra feat just have to be used on dragon heritage, making it pointless?


If I do Warblade, do I have to put most of my levels in it? Can I go mostly bard with some warblade?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

With Song of the White Raven your Warblade levels advance Inspire Courage, so you can take as many or as few levels as you want without hurting IC, both Bard Casting and maneuvers are strong so both options are good. Also because every two levels of other classes adds 1 to your Initiator level stray levels here and there will let you cherry pick maneuvers.

Just take 1 level of Warblade by level 3 (I'd suggest at lvl 2) and take Leading the Charge for your stance so that you can pick up Song of the White Raven as your level 3 feat. Then take another Warblade 2 at level at lvl 8 (assuming you want as much Bard as possible) to snag White Raven Tactics.

Also, ask your DM if they'll allow Song of the White Raven to work with Jade Phoenix Mage the Arcane Casting/Initiator PrC.

[Darrin]

If I took the strongheart, wouldn't the extra feat just have to be used on dragon heritage, making it pointless?


Dragontouched, actually. But that allows you to grab Draconic Heritage later, and switch your Dragonfire Inspiration damage to something more exotic, like force or sonic damage. Glimmerskin or Dragonborn halflings are stuck with fire damage.

Dragonborn Water Halfling is probably a better choice for a melee build... +4 Con bonus gives you a bit more durability, although d6 hit points may still be a bit fragile for a frontline meatbag.



If I do Warblade, do I have to put most of my levels in it? Can I go mostly bard with some warblade?

The typical Bardblade tends to be Bard 4/Warblade 16. This gives you nearly full BAB (important for getting the best payoff from Power Attack), lots of d12 HPs, and plenty of maneuvers for move + strike or full attack + boosts. If you want a frontline tank that can sing, then that's the best way to go.

The whole point of the Bardblade build is to get your Inspire Courage bonus up to +4 or higher, so everyone in the party is getting +4d6 or more extra damage on every attack. A Bard 20 can get the same Inspire Courage/damage bonus, but will probably live longer as a 2nd-line melee or REMF support caster.

What exactly do you really want to get out of Bard?

[Vowtz]

I see you are a new D&D player, but if you are up to the challenge you can be:

:::The Jade Phoenix Bard:::

Human bard 1[PH]/warblade 2[ToB]/ bard+3/Jade Phoenix Mage 4[ToB]/Sublime Chord 2[CArc]/JPM+4/Abjurant champion 2[CM]/JPM+2

::On 20th level:
BAB: +18
Sorc/wiz spells: 9th,
blade magic: 8th

Bard 1 -> skills
warblade 2 -> bab, maneuvers
bard+3 -> skills, magic
Jade Phoenix Mage 4 -> bab, maneuvers, magic
Sublime Chord 2 -> magic
JPM+6-> bab, maeuvers, magic
Abjurant Champion 2 -> bab, magic

::Suggested Feats(for versatility purposes):

H - Able Learner[RoD]: Skills
1 - Improved Initiative
3 - Martial Study(Shadow Jaunt)[ToB]: will give you great mobility
6 - Touch of Healing[CC]: free healing for all your party
9 - Combat Casting: required for abjurant champ
12 -Arcane Strike[CW]: To help your fighting
15 - Summon Elemental[CM]: Utility Purposes
18 - Slot Free

You can buff your friends(and yourself), have a lot of skill points in the beginning, have combat maneuvers to fight, Heal yourself and your friends, have bardic knowledge to help in quests and in the end is a mighty caster.

[PH] Player's handbook, [ToB] Tome of Battle, [RoD] Races of Destiny, [CW] Complete Warrior, [CC] Complete Champion, [CArc] Complete Arcane, [CM] Complete Mage

[SpecialK47150]

Dragontouched, actually. But that allows you to grab Draconic Heritage later, and switch your Dragonfire Inspiration damage to something more exotic, like force or sonic damage. Glimmerskin or Dragonborn halflings are stuck with fire damage.

Dragonborn Water Halfling is probably a better choice for a melee build... +4 Con bonus gives you a bit more durability, although d6 hit points may still be a bit fragile for a frontline meatbag.



The typical Bardblade tends to be Bard 4/Warblade 16. This gives you nearly full BAB (important for getting the best payoff from Power Attack), lots of d12 HPs, and plenty of maneuvers for move + strike or full attack + boosts. If you want a frontline tank that can sing, then that's the best way to go.

The whole point of the Bardblade build is to get your Inspire Courage bonus up to +4 or higher, so everyone in the party is getting +4d6 or more extra damage on every attack. A Bard 20 can get the same Inspire Courage/damage bonus, but will probably live longer as a 2nd-line melee or REMF support caster.

What exactly do you really want to get out of Bard?

I definitely am wanting to get some combat, but it doesn't have to be frontline by any means.

[SpecialK47150]

I was honestly hoping for a guy who could do some buffs, while getting in there and dealing some damage, hopefully being could with crits, I was thinking something along the lines of a Dex build. DnD noob here lol.

I was picturing a guy wielding a rapier and a dagger in his off hand, flipping about while singing lol.

[Dr.Epic]

Combat bard? But bards are best with illusion. You sure you just wouldn't want to go rogue and take advantage of sneak attack?

[kulosle]

for the best battle bard check x stat to 7 bonus and look at cha. overly SAD cha and optimize IC and you're golden. Slippers of Battle Dancing can be optimized by being a dervish. also it fits the bard theme. don't take snowflake war dance or DFI. take a 2 level dip into paladin and a one level dip into warblade when it will give you your favorite maneuvers. song of the white raven and divine performer.

[jiriku]

I was honestly hoping for a guy who could do some buffs, while getting in there and dealing some damage, hopefully being could with crits, I was thinking something along the lines of a Dex build. DnD noob here lol.

I was picturing a guy wielding a rapier and a dagger in his off hand, flipping about while singing lol.

The advice you're getting here is very strong, if you care to get that involved in rules and combos. You sound like you want it simpler, though, so I'll sum up. Snowflake Wardance is not really all the great. Dragonfire Inspiration and optimizing your Inspire Courage bonus to be higher than usual, is where it's at for a battle bard. Once you do that, everyone in your party (including you, the myopic anemic wizard, little Tiny Tim on his crutches, and that little rodent that the myopic anemic wizard carries around) will be badass at melee combat.

[SpecialK47150]

The advice you're getting here is very strong, if you care to get that involved in rules and combos. You sound like you want it simpler, though, so I'll sum up. Snowflake Wardance is not really all the great. Dragonfire Inspiration and optimizing your Inspire Courage bonus to be higher than usual, is where it's at for a battle bard. Once you do that, everyone in your party (including you, the myopic anemic wizard, little Tiny Tim on his crutches, and that little rodent that the myopic anemic wizard carries around) will be badass at melee combat.


Alright, sounds good to me. Optimize IC and use DFI.

And I would love to get more in depth with the rules and all, but in due time lol.

So, for an optimized IC/DFI build, how many levels of Warblade would be necessary? Just enough to get Song of the White Raven?

[Darrin]

So, for an optimized IC/DFI build, how many levels of Warblade would be necessary? Just enough to get Song of the White Raven?

If you're going the Song of the White Raven route, then you want as many levels of Warblade as possible. The whole point of Song of the White Raven is to get the Inspire Courage bonus of a Bard 20 while being primarily a Warblade.

Recommended Bard levels would probably be either 2 or 4. Technically, all you need for Song of the White Raven is Bard 1, but having an odd-number of non-Martial Adept levels is generally discouraged because it throws off your Initiator Levels.

Bard 2 adds +1.0 to your Initiator Level, and straightens out your stance progression (the bump in Initiator Level allows you to take a 3rd level stance at Warblade 4). However, you're a little thin on Bardic Music uses (2/day). You can add Extra Music as a feat, but on a TWF build (which tends to get the most mileage out of Dragonfire Inspiration) the free feat slots can be a bit hard to come by.

Bard 4 adds +2.0 to your Initiator Level, and gives you Bardic Music 4/day, which is pretty close to the recommended number of encounters per day. Bard 4 also gets 2nd level spells, which can be handy. The 6 skill points per level is also quite nifty.

[SpecialK47150]

I want to play primarily a Bard though, and honestly want to go just straight Bard, but would be willing to splash a few levels of something else if the benefit is there.

[Bloodgruve]

The bard in my party just took 1 level of Warblade and loves it. Warblade 1 w/Song of the White Raven feat is worth it. Swift song, 1 white raven stance, 3 maneuvers and no progression loss of IC, can't beat it.

Your party will love you if you max IC and throw some Haste around ;)

For IC/DFI

Silverbrow Human
Cha>Dex15>Con>Int>Str>Wis
Flaw-Two Weapon Fighting (Flaws are in Unearthed Arcana)
Flaw-Weapon Finesse
1-2 Bard, DFI and Melodic Casting
3 Warblade, Song of the White Raven (1 White Raven Stance and Strike)
4+ Bard, 6-Song of the heart>9-Snowflake Wardance>12-Item Familiar>15>18>>>

You can add feats as you get higher levels, maybe some Metamagics.

If you want to be a halfling be a Strongheart Halfling for the extra feat and take Dragontouched so you can have DFI. Drop Weapon Finesse and kick Str up if you can. I would try to keep TWF because more attacks will give you more DFI :)

GL
Blood~

[Darrin]

I want to play primarily a Bard though, and honestly want to go just straight Bard, but would be willing to splash a few levels of something else if the benefit is there.

Aha... so what you really need is a PrC that advances Inspire Courage bonuses + spellcasting, and maybe adds a little something to melee as well. Hmm... (I'm coming up empty). Is Dragon Magazine available? Hearthfire Fanner or Battle Howler of Gruumsh might be worth considering.

There are a few dips you can use to stack Inspire Courage bonuses (Dread Pirate, for example), but that gets pretty far off the "I want to primarily be a bard" path fairly quickly.

Otherwise... if you want a more melee-capable bard, consider Prestige Bard from Unearthed Arcana. You can start with Duskblade 2/Warblade 3, take the Apprentice feat from DMGII to make Perform a class skill, and finish off with Prestige Bard 15. If your DM allows Prestige Bard to work with Song of the White Raven, this could give you access to Inspire Courage +2/+3/+4 before a straight Bard gets it.

[kulosle]

prestigious bard is definitely far better than bard. and yes you techinically only need on level dip in warblade. find the level of maneuvers you like and take it then, of course for don't hurt. and if your going for IC optimizing thats different than a battle bard. battle bard are typically jade phoenix mage. its a really good class.

[Metahuman1]

Go Bard with a bit of Warblade tacked on. Get Melodic Casting, Song of the White Raven, Adaptive style, and Optimize Inspire courage and Dragonfire Inspiration.

Use Mostly Diamond Mind maneuvers for straight attacking things and White Raven Maneuvers for helping the party as a whole kick butt more effectively. Sudden leap from Tiger Claw is a good maneuver cause it gives you some swift action movement. A Stone Dragon and Iron Heart Maneuver arn't required but might not be a bad idea. (I like Mountain Hammer and Iron Heart Surge myself.)

Make sure your Dragon Fire Inspiration boost is Force Damage.

Take some low impact flaws for extra feats. A base race with a bonus feat helps too. So does A Template with an easy to buy off LA that boosts key stats like Draconic creature if your starting above level 1.

Maybe make an affiliation as per Players Handbook II guide lines for your character and make it so you get certain feat tax feats for free. Make it so you get to pick from a few fluff appropriate feats when you take these so that you can reuse the affiliation later and it doesn't look so much like trying to get something for nothing. Include affiliation prominently in character back story. If you wanna be REALLY, REALLY amazing, make the affiliation cap stone benefit be that Bard and Warblade stack for Maneuver progression and spell casting as well as Inspire courage if you have Song of the White Raven.

Now, buy some items, have shrink Item and Animate Object cast on them to boost your too hit with a batch of Fine sized animated object occupying your square and using Aid another action to each give you a +2 to hit, and use the boost in conjunction with that Diamond Mind maneuver that let's you keep swinging till you miss. You'll get plenty of full powered attacks boosted by your inspire courage to crazy levels of damage.

Before that maneuver comes online, just use emerald Razor strike + Inspire Courage + THW + Full Power Attack. You'll hit almost all the time and deal a butt load of damage when you do.

Depending on DM reading, Dipping Shou Disciple and Monk 1 with Decisive Strike AFC might be worth the lost Bard Progression for the second Tactic since, again, depending on DM reading, you could do a touch attack with 2-1 power attack damage too BAB conversion for the full power attack + DFI and Optimized Inspire courage damage + 1.5 Strength + weapons damage x2, which could get very, very high very, very quickly. That requires a very friendly DM ruling though.