Kill them with Laughter! Build Idea

[MesiDoomstalker]

Inspired by this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221222)thread, I decided to make a build revolving around Hideous Laughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideousLaughter.htm)or any other breathing-based spells and effects. Later in that thread I suggested combining that spell with Crisis of Breathe (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crisisofBreath.htm)which is pretty much a gaurenteed, save twice or die or suck. I particularly like this combo so I'll focus on it.

To cast Hideous Laughter, I'd need to be a 2nd level bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm), 3rd level Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard), or 4th level Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer). To manifest Crisis of Breath, I need to be either a 5th level Telepath (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#telepathTelepathyDisciplinePowers)or 9th level Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm)of other specialty picking it up with Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge)at 9th level feat. So at minimum I'll be 7th level before I can pull off this combo if I go Bard/Telepath. But I could go theurge route and go Wiz 1/Telepath 3/Cerebramancer X, using precocious apprentice to get 2nd level spells early. By 6th level I could use both with 3rd level Wiz casting and 5th level Telepath manifesting. I find this acceptable.

Martial Focused Enchanter 1/Telepath 3/Cerebremancer X

Feats:
Martial Wiz Feat: Improved Iniative
Bonus Psion Feat: Psicrystal Affinity
Flaw: Psionic Meditation
Flaw: Psicrystal Contianment
1st: Precoious Apprentice
All other feats: Open

In true Therguic fashion, I have no idea what to do after I've gone through Cerebremancer. Probably another Psion PrC since I'm already strongest there. I Also not sure what to do with all my feats. Quicken Spell/Power would be useful eventually as would be Heighten Spell to keep the DC relevant for Hideous Laughter. I assume the transperency rule doesn't apply to metamagic/metapsionic feats otherwise I'd have to take far fewer feats. Chain Spell would be great to do more than shut down 1 opponent at a time. Arcane Thesis and a Psionic equivalent if I can pull it to reduce issues with multiple meta-feats stacking. I've never done Psionics (though I understand the system) so I'm not sure what good powers or PrCs I can take as Telepath.

Any flaws in my logic? Better ways to approach this? By RAW, could I progress Cerebremancer till I can cast 2nd level spells normally and then retrain Precoious Apprentice as per PHII? Any suggestions? Please no "Enchantment/Telepath sucks. They are all Mind-Effecting" I know this. I don't care, I want to kill people with laughter dang it!

[Nich_Critic]

This works, and yes, by raw, cerebremancers self qualify, so you could retain precocious apprentice. The question is, why? Yeah, you have a save or die, but it requires two will saves and three fort saves to pull off. There is no enemy in the game that can fail 5 saves and not be dead (or well on its way to dying).

I think a better trick would be to cast hideous laughter, then hold a decanter of endless water in their mouth. Or something like that. Crisis of breath is lovely, flavourful power, but is actually pretty terrible.


Edit: Ok, it's like this:

If you manage to hit with hideous laughter, they are more or less already dead. You have a fighter, who can power attack them into oblivion, and they can't stop you. Your purpose in using crisis of breath is to finish them off. But that takes too long, and requires too many saves. Look for something that finishes them off quicker, and doesn't require as many saves. More or less, you want something that's trivially easy to avoid if the enemy can take actions, but extremely deadly if they can't get out of the way.

This sort of thing is more suited to a trap then a character build, I think.

[Psyren]

If you want dual 9s, a good option is Bard 1/Wilder 9/SC 1/Cerebremancer 10. You'll be SAD and even get Hideous Laughter earlier without needing PA. Stick a level of Psionic Mindbender in there in place of a Wilder level and you'll get Telepathy also.

[Gullintanni]

This works, and yes, by raw, cerebremancers self qualify, so you could retain precocious apprentice. The question is, why? Yeah, you have a save or die, but it requires two will saves and three fort saves to pull off. There is no enemy in the game that can fail 5 saves and not be dead (or well on its way to dying).

I'm pretty sure the OP is well aware of all of this. The fact is that the OP wants to do it just for the lulz and is pretty much just looking for the best way to do it.

Think of it as optimizing for awesome instead of optimizing for effective :smalltongue:

To that point, Psyren's option seems just fine to me, because it does both.

[MesiDoomstalker]

This works, and yes, by raw, cerebremancers self qualify, so you could retain precocious apprentice. The question is, why?

Because its flavorful. Because it would be funny, no pun intended. Because I want to. Seriously, don't bash it because its suboptimal. I know it is. I want to kill people with laughter. I don't care how inpractical it is. I don't care that its a trap. I want to do it. So I want to build a character that can do it in the most effective way possible. So instead of being difficult and obstructive you could be helpful and and suggest ways to improve the build.

Random question unrelated to above: Why in the Nine Hells do Beguilers not have Hideous Laughter without Advanced Learning? I seriously don't understand why the entire Core Sor/Wiz Enchantment school isn't available to Beguilers. But whatever. If you were a DM would you allow a Beguiler to swap a spell on its list for Hideous Laughter?

EDIT:
If you want dual 9s, a good option is Bard 1/Wilder 9/SC 1/Cerebremancer 10. You'll be SAD and even get Hideous Laughter earlier without needing PA. Stick a level of Psionic Mindbender in there in place of a Wilder level and you'll get Telepathy also.

This works very well but delays the combo till 11th level I believe if I understand it correctly. Wait, how are you getting 3rd level arcane spells? Cerebromancer earlier in the build?


I'm pretty sure the OP is well aware of all of this. The fact is that the OP wants to do it just for the lulz and is pretty much just looking for the best way to do it.

Think of it as optimizing for awesome instead of optimizing for effective :smalltongue:

To that point, Psyren's option seems just fine to me, because it does both.

Thank you Gullintanni for a quicker response than me. You hit the nail on the head.

[Psyren]

Wait, how are you getting 3rd level arcane spells? Cerebromancer earlier in the build?

Argh, forgot that. Guess you need PA (+ Sanctum Spell) after all.

[Gullintanni]

Thank you Gullintanni for a quicker response than me. You hit the nail on the head.

I just knew what you were going for.

One of my epic games involved the party fighting Mammon. We hit him with Irresistible Dance and Maddening Scream one round after another. Dancing Screaming Mammon? ...how could we not? :smallbiggrin:

[Socratov]

ahhhh Tasha's Hideous laughter... the very first spell I ever cast as a newbie with my first ever character...I have very nostalgic feelings for this spell along with grease... The fun I had with them :smallcool:

[CactusAir]

I'm fairly certain there's a vestige somewhere that has Hideous Laughter as a granted ability.

If your DM allows a dual advacement psionic/vestige PRC (convert an existing Prc; been done before many times for psionics) You can have something fairly interesting.

Binder1/Wilder3/Anima Mind10/Anarchic Initiate or +Wilder 6

Bind the vestige that gets you Hideous laughter, and also bind a Psionic vestige, which will give you an additional power you can manifest and a few bonus PP. Fun times.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'm fairly certain there's a vestige somewhere that has Hideous Laughter as a granted ability.

If your DM allows a dual advacement psionic/vestige PRC (convert an existing Prc; been done before many times for psionics) You can have something fairly interesting.

Binder1/Wilder3/Anima Mind10/Anarchic Initiate or +Wilder 6

Bind the vestige that gets you Hideous laughter, and also bind a Psionic vestige, which will give you an additional power you can manifest and a few bonus PP. Fun times.

Where is Binder? Please don't say Tome of Magic, I don't have that one. I have a feeling its ToM.

[Zonugal]

Have you considered an Erudite with the spell-to-power acf? It can not only snag Hideous Laughter and Crisis of Breath in addition to having a bucket of power points to spam them consistently.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Have you considered an Erudite with the spell-to-power acf? It can not only snag Hideous Laughter and Crisis of Breath in addition to having a bucket of power points to spam them consistently.

I have but I know my group and if I try to use StP Erudite, I will get psionics banned. I don't want to get it banned. But maybe if I can restrict my own power for the sake of it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Where is Binder? Please don't say Tome of Magic, I don't have that one. I have a feeling its ToM.

Alright. I won't say it.

Be a bard. Hideous Laughter is a 1st level spell for them, so you're not delayed (actually, you get it sooner). Use perform (comedy) for bardic music.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Alright. I won't say it.

Be a bard. Hideous Laughter is a 1st level spell for them, so you're not delayed (actually, you get it sooner). Use perform (comedy) for bardic music.

Bard 7/Wilder 3/SC 1/Cerebremancer 9 will get me 9th sorcerer casting and 6th wilder manifesting. Isn't there a way to get to get early entry with spontaneous class? Besides Sanctum Spell, I know about it but it will be hard to convince.

Bard 4/Wilder 1/Thrallherd 5/Psionic Mindbender 1/SC 1/Cererbremancer 9 will give me 9th Sorcerer, 7th wilder manifesting, telepathy, Thrallherd, Psionic Charm and Dominate. Achieved with early entry for Bard to 3rd level spells, practiced manifester to get early entrance to Thrallherd and Psionic Mindbender, then follow through with SC and Cerebremancer. If I can pull the stats so my Cha and Int are decent, 16+ each, I'd just go Telepath.

[hex0]

Wilder 4/Sorcerer 4/Cerebremancer 2/Prestige Bard 1/SC 1/Cerebremancer 8

???

Psion 3/Enchanter 1/Master Specialist 2/Cerebremancer 10 etc.

???

[MesiDoomstalker]

Wilder 4/Sorcerer 4/Cerebremancer 2/Prestige Bard 1/SC 1/Cerebremancer 8

???

Psion 3/Enchanter 1/Master Specialist 2/Cerebremancer 10 etc.

???

The first one isn't legal since Cerebremancer can only progress 1 arcane casting for all 10 levels. Sublime Cord is by RAW a seperate casting than Sorcerer and thus you can't progress it with Cererbremancer unless the first level progresses it.

The second one is inferior to the one I presented on the OP as it requires 3 dead casting and manifesting levels.

EDIT: New idea!
Beguiler 1/Telepath 1/Beguiler +1/Telepath +2/Mindbender 1/Prestige Bard 1/ Beguiler 3/Sublime Cord 1/Cerebramancer 9. This gives me 3rd level Beguiler casting, 6th Telepath manifesting and 4-9th level Sorcerer Casting. The main issue getting Perform as a class skill prior to taking Prestige Bard. I need 8 ranks which at cc would take 16 levels. Are their any apprentice feats that grant it? I'll have plenty of points to work with with Beguiler and Int SAD-ness. Nevermind, Prestige Bard 1 and Bard 1 are exactly the same for my purposes. Taking Bard 1 at 10th will let me hit the Perform 10 for Sublime Cord at 11. I still need a respectable Cha to utilize Sublime Cord but that means all I need is Con so very doable. By 10th level I can easily afford a Cha + item.