Dragon Disciple should be nerfed, or other PrCs should be buffed. (Pathfinder)

[Mockingbird]

Dragon Disciple is absolutely ridiculous, and the other prestige classes in Pathfinder are underpowered. I'm going to compare it to Eldritch Knight, another class for caster/fighters in this thread.

Dragon Disciple
Requirements-
Must be able to cast 1st level Arcane spells without preparation. If you are a sorcerer, you must have the Draconic bloodline.
Languages- Draconic.
Race- Any nondragon.
Skills- Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.

Eldritch Knight
Requirements-
Must be able to cast 3rd level Arcane spells.
Must be proficient with all martial weapons.

Right there. As a Bard or Sorcerer, you can take your first level of Dragon Disciple at second level.. For Eldritch Knight, you have to be at least 8th level for bard or 7th level for sorcerer. (Since Bard and Sorcerer are the only core classes that qualify for Dragon Disciple, I'm only going to use those to compare the classes.)


Dragon Disciple-
Good BaB, good caster level progression, good fortitude and will saves.

Eldritch Knight-
Full BaB, full caster level progression, good fortitude saves.

Level 1- Dragon Disciple
Blood of Dragons (if you're a bard, you gain draconic bloodline powers. If you're a sorcerer, you get bloodline power increases even when you take dragon disciple levels), Natural Armor increase (+1)

Level 1- Eldritch Knight
Bonus feat, Diverse Training (for bard or sorcerer, for meeting the prerequisites of feats you add your eldritch knight level to your fighter level and your EK level to your spellcasting level.)

Right from the start, Dragon Disciple gives a ridiculous power. You gain sorcerer bloodline powers when you take levels in Dragon Disciple.

Level 2- Dragon Disciple
+2 STR, bonus feat, bite attack.

Level 2- Eldritch Knight
Nothing.

If I had to choose one of these classes by now, I'd pick DD.

Level 3- Dragon Disciple
Breath Weapon

Level 3- Eldritch Knight
Nothing.

Breath Weapons deal 1d6 per sorcerer level. You treat your Dragon Disciple level as your sorcerer level (or you add it to your sorcerer level if you're a sorcerer). By level 4, you can deal 3d6. 3d6 at level 4 vs. nothing at level 8? I'd pick the 3d6.

Level 4- Dragon Disciple
+2 STR, +1 natural armor

Level 4- Eldritch Knight
Nothing.

Okay, DD is getting pretty broken by this point.

Level 5- Dragon Disciple
Blindsense

Level 5- Eldritch Knight
Bonus feat.

Blindsense isn't that ridiculous, no comment on that. It's still better than the bonus feat EK gets, though.

Level 6- Dragon Disciple
+2 CON

Level 6- Eldritch Knight
Nothing.

At this point in DD, your bard or sorcerer will be a tank. Seems pretty unlikely.

Level 7- Dragon Disciple
Dragon Form 1/day, +1 natural armor

Level 7 Eldritch Knight
Nothing. Big surprise.

WHY, PAIZO, WHY

Level 8- Dragon Disciple
+2 INT, bonus bloodline feat

Level 8- Eldritch Knight
Nothing.

So by this point you've become the most powerful character in your party with DD, and the weakest with EK.

Level 9- Dragon Disciple
Wings

Level 9- Eldritch Knight
Bonus feat. How exciting.

Fly speed of 60 feet at 10th level. If you have 5 levels of sorcerer, it increases to 90 feet.

Level 10- Dragon Disciple
Blindsense 60 ft., Form of the Dragon II 2/day

Level 10- Eldritch Knight
Spell Critical (every time you critical hit, cast a spell.)

I can get the same thing from Eldritch Knight with 5 levels of magus.

See my point?

[Bovine Colonel]

EK has two more spell levels.

[CactusAir]

EK has two more spell levels.

Which pretty much automatically makes it better than DD.

Anyway, PrC's that cost enough Spell casting levels that you, lose a level of spells are nerfs to the base casting class, and are the opposite of overpowered by definition. Especially in pathfinder, when they decided to make Wizards even more Uber for no damn reason.

[Krazzman]

Level 6 will be your first level of DD.... you need 5!!!!! ranks in a skill.

And no he is not overpowered. A Wizard and a Cleric are overpowered. The Dragon Disciple is fine.

[Demon of Death]

Dragon Disciple
Requirements-
Must be able to cast 1st level Arcane spells without preparation. If you are a sorcerer, you must have the Draconic bloodline.
Languages- Draconic.
Race- Any nondragon.
Skills- Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.

Eldritch Knight
Requirements-
Must be able to cast 3rd level Arcane spells.
Must be proficient with all martial weapons.

Right there. As a Bard or Sorcerer, you can take your first level of Dragon Disciple at second level

Really, you can get 5 ranks in a skill at 2nd level? I'd like to see how quite honestly.

[Zeikstraal]

Right there. As a Bard or Sorcerer, you can take your first level of Dragon Disciple at second level.. For Eldritch Knight, you have to be at least 8th level for bard or 7th level for sorcerer. (Since Bard and Sorcerer are the only core classes that qualify for Dragon Disciple, I'm only going to use those to compare the classes.)


You can't go into DD at second cause you need 5 ranks.
In Pathfinder your max ranks are equal to your character level.

For a Sorceror, I don't think DD is that good of a Prestige Class. You qualify easy for it, but it gives melee abbilities, and bad spell progression.

For a melee focused Bard, this is a realy good one.

Ninja'd:smallbiggrin:

[NineThePuma]

Someone hasn't used the Pathfinder Skill System.

DD isn't anywhere near broken; it's strong, but mostly for Melee. Casters get a lot more.

[Drothmal]

In general, I think that, for a Gish, EK ends up being better...

1) Let me start with a question


Right there. As a Bard or Sorcerer, you can take your first level of Dragon Disciple at second level.. For Eldritch Knight, you have to be at least 8th level for bard or 7th level for sorcerer. (Since Bard and Sorcerer are the only core classes that qualify for Dragon Disciple, I'm only going to use those to compare the classes.)

Are you sure it works that way? My understanding was that class bonus does not count as ranks for qualifying for a prestige. If that is so, you cannot enter either up to lvl 5


2) As pointed by Drahcir, EK has 9/10 spellcasting, which can mean access to a higher tier of spells

3) EK full BAB makes up for the STR increase (or close enough, since at the end of the day its +1 to hit vs +2 to damage, though YMMV depending if you use a 2H or you do TWF)

4) The breath weapon's power is directly related to (1). If I'm wrong, I agree with you, it's fairly OP. But if I'm right, 8d6 AoE is powerful, but at lvl 8 you should have this in fireballs or other spells of the same type

5) I think you're selling combat feats short. There are a lot of good feats for a gysh (like arcane strike) and you can never have enough (IMHO)


Though I'll admit that Magus makes EK a bit redundant (and this is from playing a magus right now in a PbP game here), I do not think that DD is so much superior that it needs a serious nerf

My 2cp, we might have just different opinions


EDIT: Meganinja'd by everyone else. This happens for making a longer post while I though that the server was down...

[The Dark Fiddler]

Level 6 will be your first level of DD.... you need 5!!!!! ranks in a skill.



Really, you can get 5 ranks in a skill at 2nd level? I'd like to see how quite honestly.

Is this something that Pathfinder changed from 3.5?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think you're underestimating the value of spell levels. The DD is a class meant for mundane warriors who dip sorcerer or bard to get a little bit of arcane ability, or for melee bards who don't care about their singing. EK is a class meant for warrior-mages who want to preserve as much raw spellcasting power as possible. 7/10 is a mediocre progression of BaB and a just-plain-bad progression of spell levels. You get neat toys, but you would have gotten neater toys by staying in sorcerer.

Oh, and as others have pointed out the skill requirement along with PF's skill system makes it so you can't enter the PrC until level 6. Both PrCs are fine as is. Or at least, they're not the real problem.

[Psyren]

Is this something that Pathfinder changed from 3.5?

Yes.

3.5: Max ranks in class skill = level + 3. (1/2 that for non-class skills.)
PF: Max ranks in any skill = level

[Bovine Colonel]

Is this something that Pathfinder changed from 3.5?

Yeah. In 3.5 you could have up to your level + 3 ranks in a class skill. In PF you can have up to your level but if any given skill a) is a class skill and b) has ranks you get a flat +3 to that skill.

[Seerow]

Is this something that Pathfinder changed from 3.5?

Yes. You no longer get x4 skill points at first level. You get your normal skill points every level, and get a +3 bonus to using the skill if you invest ranks into a class skill. So you can't have 5 ranks in a skill in PF until level 5.

edit: Double Ninja'd

[Demon of Death]

Yes.

3.5: Max ranks in class skill = level + 3. (1/2 that for non-class skills.)
PF: Max ranks in any skill = level

Technically in PF it's Hit Dice[/nitpick], but yes, that is the system for PF regarding skills.

[Krazzman]

Is this something that Pathfinder changed from 3.5?

Yes, you have can put skillpoints on a level - skill level basis no longer level +3 but instead you get a +3 bonus for your class skills if you put at least 1 rank into it.

[docnessuno]

Wizard 8
Warrior 2
EK 10

Level 9 spells, BAB +16

Sorcerer 10
Dragon disciple 10

Level 8 spells, BAB +12, minor buffs

[Curious]

-Snip-

Ah, my friend, I am afraid you have been afflicted with something I like to call 'Monk Syndrome.' You have been overwhelmed by the multitude of small, nice-looking abilities and assumed that this means the class is overpowered. This is not the case at all. In fact, I would go so far as to call the EK significantly more powerful than the DD, due to it's much higher BAB and spell levels.

Also, you can't get the same effect as the EK's capstone with 5 levels of Magus.
The EK capstone works every time you confirm a critical, whereas the Magus ability only works once a day.

[Chained Birds]

Strange question: can a rogue 5 get into DD if both of his Rogue Talents were those Minor/Major magic talents? Allows the rogue to cast a 0th and a 1st spell as a SLA 3/day (I think).

[Mockingbird]

Wizard 8
Warrior 2
EK 10

Level 9 spells, BAB +16

Sorcerer 10
Dragon disciple 10

Level 8 spells, BAB +12, minor buffs

..wings, breath weapon, blindsight, +4 strength, +2 con, +2 int, bloodline powers, etc..

[Mooncrow]

..wings, breath weapon, blindsight, +4 strength, +2 con, +2 int, bloodline powers, etc..

And all of them together aren't worth giving up 9th level spells.

[Seerow]

..wings, breath weapon, blindsight, +4 strength, +2 con, +2 int, bloodline powers, etc..

Are any of those not replicated by a spell of 3rd level or below?

[Mockingbird]

Oh, derp, I forgot about the skill cap. My DM confused me with that one, he said there was no cap to the limit of ranks you can put into a skill. But anyway, is two levels of spells really that big of a difference at lower levels? What about a 3.PF campaign with someone like a warmage? Their spell progression is slow enough for it not to make as much of a difference, and the +2 INT will increase their warmage edge.

[NineThePuma]

Is one extra point of damage going to break the game?

[Curious]

Is one extra point of damage going to break the game?

Especially when he's losing the extra damage from 9th level spells.

[Mockingbird]

Especially when he's losing the extra damage from 9th level spells.

Again, it may not be so great at 20th level, but try it at 7th level.

[Curious]

Again, it may not be so great at 20th level, but try it at 7th level.

Wheee! +1 damage! Now I can really relate to the fighter!

[Fax Celestis]

wingsFly.

breath weaponFireball.

blindsightEcholocation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/echolocation).

+4 strengthBull's strength.

+2 conBear's endurance.

+2 intFox's cunning.

bloodline powersStay in sorcerer.

[gkathellar]

Again, it may not be so great at 20th level, but try it at 7th level.

On the contrary, lost spell levels are even more damaging at low levels, where you're still working your way up to the real godpowers.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Oh, derp, I forgot about the skill cap. My DM confused me with that one, he said there was no cap to the limit of ranks you can put into a skill. But anyway, is two levels of spells really that big of a difference at lower levels? What about a 3.PF campaign with someone like a warmage? Their spell progression is slow enough for it not to make as much of a difference, and the +2 INT will increase their warmage edge.Lost spell levels matter at every level of a campaign, even when the spellcasting list isn't that great (Warmage). Note that your +2 int gives you +1 damage on the spell, whereas +1 CL gives you +1d6 damage to the spell, along with higher level spells that do more damage or are more reliable. Warmage isn't really equipped to gish at all, so there's no reason you'd take either PrC. You're nerfing yourself by exiting warmage for anything except a full-casting PrC.

[ericgrau]

The DD abilities only help melee, so generally a full BAB 3-4 / caster 1-2 entry is better. But the OP has an interesting approach: enter with full caster and you keep up with eldritch knight until character level 13. At 14 you finally lose another caster level but for most of the game there is no drawback. You get the same number of feats from your bloodline and they aren't bad options. You lose some BAB but str, natural armor and con makes up for the medium BAB and a little more, and you get d12 HD instead of d10.

The main thing you lose is diverse training, making it harder to qualify for better feats. So in the end diverse training makes the 2 gish options about equal. The real issue is that DD tends to make better melee than either option when you ditch a few more caster levels before entering, but that's a worse gish than either option detailed above if you were planning on high level spells.

[agentnone]

Strange question: can a rogue 5 get into DD if both of his Rogue Talents were those Minor/Major magic talents? Allows the rogue to cast a 0th and a 1st spell as a SLA 3/day (I think).

I don't see why they couldn't become a DD. But, since they don't have spell progression, they wouldn't be able to benefit from that aspect of the DD. The rogue in my group has DD levels. But that's due to him taking a level dip in Sorcerer. And to be honest, it makes him rather versatile in combat. But, it kind of nerfed him in a way because he's not pure rogue. And the players know they cap out at level 20. Anyway, back tot the question at hand. I would think it would depend on the DM since the PrC is mostly aimed at spontaneous arcane casters like Sorcs and Bards. My question now is, with that Rogue talent, does it have to be an Arcane spell? Could it be a level 1 Divine spell or no?

[Triskavanski]

Oh, derp, I forgot about the skill cap. My DM confused me with that one, he said there was no cap to the limit of ranks you can put into a skill. But anyway, is two levels of spells really that big of a difference at lower levels? What about a 3.PF campaign with someone like a warmage? Their spell progression is slow enough for it not to make as much of a difference, and the +2 INT will increase their warmage edge.

The Warmage though was pretty terrible.

One of the first things you should know about spellcasting..

If you are going for pure HP damage.. you are doing it wrong. Seriously. Charm monster, slay living, etc. Save or Die type spells basically. A fireball is there only to weaken the enemy a bit while you take a break and let the mundanes finish it.

Secondly, the WM was a secondary Spellcaster base. And the thing about those is that you get a spell list.. It never changes. Those spells you have in that book are pretty much it. books that ended up coming later completely forgot the existence of the WM.

[NamelessNPC]

I don't see why they couldn't become a DD. But, since they don't have spell progression, they wouldn't be able to benefit from that aspect of the DD.

In the PFSRD FAQ one of the designers stated that it was possible by RAW, but it was not what they intended.

Not exactly the same question, but similar:


Q: With a wizards Arcane Bond's power to allow for casting arcane spells spontaneously can they qualify for the Dragon Disciple Prestige Class?

A: (James Jacobs 11/20/09) First off... I'm not a big fan of saying what you can and can't do in your home game. And as a result, I'm generally hesitant to lay down the law for things like this, since I can see the attraction to go either way. What it really boils down to is if the GM wants to let wizards qualify for the class... that's cool. Arcane bond's power to allow a wizard to cast an additional spell was not intended to let wizards "sneak" into prestige classes that do this, but there's no game balance reason as to why they shouldn't be able to do it. But for materials we're publishing, though, and for building NPCs who might have this class, being able to cast arcane spells spontaneously means "being a bard or a sorcerer" at this point.

[Frosty]

And the thing about those is that you get a spell list.. It never changes. Those spells you have in that book are pretty much it. books that ended up coming later completely forgot the existence of the WM.Same thing happened to the Beguiler, and Beguilers don't even get Eccletic Learning.

[Hazzardevil]

Same thing happened to the Beguiler, and Beguilers don't even get Eccletic Learning.

I think Beguilers can get it depending on how you interpret ACF's class mentions. If you view it as simply telling you what classes can get it then beguiler can have it.

[CactusAir]

Same thing happened to the Beguiler, and Beguilers don't even get Eccletic Learning.

Beguilers don't *Need* EC. tThey can actually function reasonably with just the spell list they have.

Whereas warmages are all just marking time until they can get into PrC bard or Rainbow Servant.

[Mockingbird]

This thread isn't about comparing DD to full casters, this is about comparing DD to other Prestige Classes and already existing characters..

9th level spells are important, I knew that. Dragon Disciple doesn't get full caster progression, I know that too. But EK won't get full 9th level spells either, because you have to have levels in fighter or another class with martial weapon proficiency to qualify.

[Tyndmyr]

Dragon Disciple is absolutely ridiculous, and the other prestige classes in Pathfinder are underpowered. I'm going to compare it to Eldritch Knight, another class for caster/fighters in this thread.


I've actually done this exact matchup before. You're entirely correct, sir, but expect many to challenge this.

Yes, it's true they fulfill slightly different niches, but DD is pretty strong at it's niche.

Let's break out the important bits:
DD: 7/10 BaB, 7/10 casting
EK: 10/10 BaB, 9/10 casting

See, it LOOKS like EK's a clear winner, right?

But if you look at the prereqs, DD requires no melee classes. EK basically does require a single level of a melee class. So, that cuts the total difference to 1 caster level.

The 3 BaB? +2 str gives you the same attack bonus as a BaB. And also damage! It's strictly better, which is why war hulk is so epic. DD gives you +4 Str.

That drops the difference down to 1 CL/1 attack bonus.

So, you have the following:
EK: +1 Atk, +1 CL, 3 combat feats, spell critical
DD: +3ish damage(from str), +2 Con, +2 Int, +3 NA, bite, breath weapon, dragon form, wings.

Note also that dipping out of DD at level 8 avoids a CL lost and a BaB lost, while losing NONE of the strength, etc. It's just straight win over the EK at that point.

[Drelua]

This thread isn't about comparing DD to full casters, this is about comparing DD to other Prestige Classes and already existing characters..

9th level spells are important, I knew that. Dragon Disciple doesn't get full caster progression, I know that too. But EK won't get full 9th level spells either, because you have to have levels in fighter or another class with martial weapon proficiency to qualify.

Wizard 9/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10. 18th level casting, which gets you 9ths at level 19, or 20 if you use sorcerer. Also, depending on whether you listen to the designers or the actual RAW, you may be able to qualify just by being planetouched and only lose one level of casting from Eldritch Knight.

[Curious]

Wizard 9/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10. 18th level casting, which gets you 9ths at level 19, or 20 if you use sorcerer. Also, depending on whether you listen to the designers or the actual RAW, you may be able to qualify just by being planetouched and only lose one level of casting from Eldritch Knight.

Yeah, being an Aasimar or Tiefling nets you martial weapon proficiency for free, due to being an Outsider, so you don't even need the one-level fighter dip.

[Psyren]

9th level spells are important, I knew that. Dragon Disciple doesn't get full caster progression, I know that too. But EK won't get full 9th level spells either, because you have to have levels in fighter or another class with martial weapon proficiency to qualify.

"This class won't get full 9th-level spells" is like saying "this country will only have one nuke." They may not have as many 9ths as a Wizard 20, but having 9ths is still an order of magnitude more powerful than not having them.

An Eldritch Knight can Gate, Time Stop, Astral Projection, Wish, Disjunction... even Shapechange, however nerfed it may have been, all pre-epic, even with Sorcerer entry. DDs can do none of these things.

Even at mid-levels - A Fighter 1/Wiz 5/EK 3 (9th level) has 4th-level spells. A Sorcerer 5/DD 4 still has 3rd, and won't get 4ths for two more levels, at which point the EK will be on 5ths.

It's a good class, don't get me wrong (at least, MUCH better than the 3.5 version) but EK still wins.

[Gnaeus]

Looking at it from the other side, DD is not badly balanced with T4 Melee.

Compare standard Sorcadin DD (Paladin 4/Sorc 1/DD10) with Paladin, level by level, 1-15. Paladin has more group buffing, is a much better healer, and his full BAB + divine bond + better smite evil will usually make him a better damage dealer than the DD's str bonus. Lots of ACFs give room for customizing. DD is a better defensive tank, with higher AC, energy resist, fly and blindsense make him harder to shut down, etc. Personally, I like the DD better. I think it is a little stronger. But the difference is well within margin of error for build/play style, and I can see reasons why someone might choose the pure paladin. That is a good indicator of balance.

[Drothmal]

This thread isn't about comparing DD to full casters, this is about comparing DD to other Prestige Classes and already existing characters.

Yeah, but also this thread calls for DD to be nerfed for being "broken"

Though I agree that it is an interesting, flavorful and yes, somewhat powerful class, I do not think that you can say categorically that DD is so much better than EK that is the clear choice for any gish

[ericgrau]

I should bring up that DD keeps up with EK casting until character level 13 (DD 8). You could conceivably switch back to sorcerer at that point or whatever else. The comparison is then a matter of class features and attack bonus not caster levels. The attack bonus at that level is equal thanks to the strength boosts. Both also get 3 feats.

That leaves only class features. EK 10 gets diverse training, and eventually spell critical. DD 8 gets +3 AC, +2 HP/level, blindsense 30', +2 int (which grants skill points in Pathfinder), +3 damage, and a level 7 spell 1/day. Diverse training opens up better feat options but that sure is a heck of a lot of gish-useful freebies over the EK.

Sure you can lose another caster level to get more, but you would only do so if what you get is a better option than the lost caster level. So at worst the lost caster level is irrelevant to any comparison. Plus comparing level 20 is pretty pointless when most campaigns don't go that long and even if one did the level is quite brief.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Beguilers don't *Need* EC. tThey can actually function reasonably with just the spell list they have.

Whereas warmages are all just marking time until they can get into PrC bard or Rainbow Servant.

They only have to wait 1 level

Versatile Spellcaster+Heighten Spell+Earth Spell(or Sanctum Spell)= 3rd level spells at level 1 :smallwink:

Customer Caution advised, this is strong cheese whose secondary effects may include banning from playing any kind of Caster, banning from eating gaming snacks, head trauma due splatbook, etc.

[Fax Celestis]

I should bring up that DD keeps up with EK casting until character level 13 (DD 8). You could conceivably switch back to sorcerer at that point or whatever else. The comparison is then a matter of class features and attack bonus not caster levels. The attack bonus at that level is equal thanks to the strength boosts. Both also get 3 feats.

That leaves only class features. EK 10 gets diverse training, and eventually spell critical. DD 8 gets +3 AC, +2 HP/level, blindsense 30', +2 int (which grants skill points in Pathfinder), +3 damage, and a level 7 spell 1/day. Diverse training opens up better feat options but that sure is a heck of a lot of gish-useful freebies over the EK.

Sure you can lose another caster level to get more, but you would only do so if what you get is a better option than the lost caster level. So at worst the lost caster level is irrelevant to any comparison. Plus comparing level 20 is pretty pointless when most campaigns don't go that long and even if one did the level is quite brief.

The fact that this kind of comparison can be made is pretty telling, to me, that Eldritch Knight and Dragon Disciple are balanced with each other.

[ericgrau]

Well the above comparison boils down to the question: Which of these two is better?

Diverse training (qualify for feats as if you're a high level fighter) and spell critical (free quicken every time you crit)
+3 AC, +2 HP/level, +3 damage, a few skill points and a level 7 spell.

Remember spell critical (EK 10) lags 3 levels behind DD 8, and those levels could provide some other minor special ability as well to the DD build.

Hmmm, I'd favor DD until spell critical, but then spell critical is crazy strong. I mean a 15-20 crit range weapon plus haste for more opportunities is a given on any smart EK, and it's not a bad weapon to have even before EK 10. After that point ya I'd say they're about equal, or perhaps favoring the EK if you can manage enough full attacks. So IMO ECL 16+ go EK, ECL 15- go DD.

[sleeepygamer]

EK has two more spell levels.

Also you could take the Prestigious Spellcaster Feat that is out now, solves that issue.

[Buufreak]

Also you could take the Prestigious Spellcaster Feat that is out now, solves that issue.

Hello, new friend, and welcome to GiantITP. This thing you did here? Its called "thread necromancy" which is when you comment on a dead thread (this one happens to be 6 years old since the last post), thus bringing it "back to life." Its generally frowned upon, and I expect a mod will pop up soon to lock the thread so it doesn't continue. In short, try to notice how old a post is before replying to it, it will save you tons of headaches and also help you to not break forum rules.