Optimizing Help

[Element Zero]

I recently received help building myself an Ordained Champion for an upcoming campaign. He was built to 10, scaled back to 5 for the start. Now, the DM has come to me to help the rest of the party reach a level where they can keep up. So, I, in turn have come to my secret weapon: the Forums.

I need help with builds for a 5th level half-elf sorcerer, and a 5th level ranged fighter of some type. We have all Wizards of the Coast books open to us. Help?

[sirpercival]

What does the sorcerer want to do? Does the ranged fighter want to be an archer or a thrower?

Are they set on those classes and races?

Stats, setting? Flaws/traits?

[Element Zero]

The sorcerer is indeed set on her class/race. The ranged guy hasn't become married to anything but the concept yet. If I know my players, and I think I do, I expect the sorcerer is looking for damage output.

We each get two flaws, no traits. Stats have yet to be rolled, but are flexible and will most likely fit into any setup we need. Our DM is really, really nice to us at creation. Setting is ostensibly Forgotten Realms 3.5, though I'm the only one with any real Faerun knowledge out of the group.


Edit: I have been informed that ranged guy wants to do a bow.

[sirpercival]

OK, how about a zen archer cleric build for the fighter? Because clerics do fighter better than fighters. There are a lot of resources around for that.

For damage output... Do they know that blasting is a suboptimal tactic? If they're married to the idea then really you want to throw Reserves of Strength on a boosted CL build. This works best with Wizard/Knight of the Weave/Ultimate Magus, but you could do something like:

Sorc 6/Virtuoso 1/Spellthief 3/Sublime Chord 2/War Mage 5/Archmage 3 with a major bloodline and Master Spellthief, choosing Spell Power with the archamge (war mage from Age of Mortals, not warmage from Complete Arcane), so your CL would be:

Sorc 6 level + 3 bloodline + 3 archmage + 3 spellthief = 15
Sublime Chord = 10 level + 15 sorc + 3 bloodline + 3 archmage + 3 spellthief = 34, and then boosted another 3 with reserves of strength.

Just as an aside, doing spontaneous divination Evoker 5/Knight of the Weave 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 4 with a major bloodline gives you CLs of:

Evoker 19 levels + 4 UM + 4 Archmage + 3 bloodline = 30
KotW 8 levels + 4 UM + 4 archmage + 3 bloodline + 30 evoker = 49, plus a bunch of free metamagic.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For the Sorcerer, use Forestlord Half-Elf from Dragon Magic. Get the Fell Drain metamagic feat from Libris Mortis, and Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon. Use the Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature for Sorcerers from Player's Handbook 2. At 6th level take Practical Metamagic for Fell Drain, which is also in Races of the Dragon. Learn the spells Power Word: Pain, Wings of Cover, and Wings of Flurry all in Races of the Dragon. He can use Versatile Spellcaster to use two 2nd level spell slots to cast a 3rd-level equivalent metamagic spell, such as Fell Drain Power Word: Pain which deals a negative level per round in addition to its damage. Be sure to pick up Glitterdust and Web, two of the best crowd control spells in the game. Take a full-casting prestige class at the earliest opportunity, I'd recommend saying he visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Iron Will for 3,000 gp without having to spend a feat on it, and taking Incantatrix from Player's Guide to Faerun.

For the Fighter, use the Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) (rename it big-bad-bully and strip any requirement of association to a specific organization), and be sure to get Physical Prowess (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) for free stuff, and get Tumble instead of Ride (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). I'd make him a Half-Orc, go Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon) 1/ Fighter 5/ Exotic Weapon Master 1/ Fighter 13 in that order, and say he also visited the Otyugh Hole to get Menacing Demeanor without spending a feat on it. Get the Never Outnumbered skill trick in Complete Scoundrel, and take the feat Imperious Command in Drow of the Underdark. Get Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Greatbow (CW) or Bone Bow (Frostburn), and Exotic Weapon Master is for the Close-Quarters Ranged Combat trick. Get (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization, Ranged Weapon Mastery and Penetrating Shot from PH2, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Rapid Shot in CW, Woodland Archer in Races of the Wild, etc. His bow should be Elvencraft from Races of the Wild, which allows it to function as a quarterstaff as well; pay the masterwork cost three times (bow, two ends of a quarterstaff) so all three can be enchanted later on. Possibly even make it an Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) so he can upgrade it himself at half price, and it can add a considerable bonus to his Intimidate checks. His bow should eventually be made Splitting from Champions of Ruin (costs +3), and I'm not very good with bow properties but I'd say Seeking and probably Exit Wound and Explosive from CW. The quarterstaff ends could each be made +1 Defending to always grant him an AC bonus, and later on one of the casters should put Greater Magic Weapon on each of those every day.

[Element Zero]

hehehe, I'm the only optimizer in the group, really, and I'm not even that knowledgeable. I've just been set to make sure they can keep up with the kind of thing I'm capable of, mostly due to the fact that I'm the only one of us that uses the Playground as a resource.

I'm in favor of all of it, though the sad fact is that we're dealing with a major level newbie in the sorcerer...I like it though. I'll see if we can work it. Any other suggestions or thoughts on this are still welcome, however.

[sirpercival]

be sure to get Physical Prowess (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) for free stuff

I just read this on that page:


MONK

The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

lolololol

[dextercorvia]

hehehe, I'm the only optimizer in the group, really, and I'm not even that knowledgeable. I've just been set to make sure they can keep up with the kind of thing I'm capable of, mostly due to the fact that I'm the only one of us that uses the Playground as a resource.

I'm in favor of all of it, though the sad fact is that we're dealing with a major level newbie in the sorcerer...I like it though. I'll see if we can work it. Any other suggestions or thoughts on this are still welcome, however.

For the sorcerer, Apprentice Spellcaster+Mother Cyst are worth the two feats. You get 11 new spells known, which the Apprentice feat lets you swap out for useful ones. You also get more leeway for swapping out your other spells, protecting against the newbie mistake of loading up on all fire spells, or something.

[Big Fau]

I just read this on that page:



lolololol

Do note that they did not say the word "Useful" anywhere in that paragraph.

Unique, however, is inaccurate. And the "Look forward to" part is misleading: The only thing to look forward to is the level that you planned on multiclassing out of Monk at.

[marcielle]

If they haven't optimized yet, there is a chance they do not like overly complicated things. For the Sorc, I'd suggest just taking some wizard and going Ultimate Magus. After that, just burn sorc slots to stack metamagic on his wizard spells. Stack it like a deck of cards.

[Darth_Versity]

For the ranged character it recommend a simple Swift hunter build. Scout 4/ Ranger the rest and work on a simple move and shoot basis. When they get used to the idea introduce simple items or feats that will allow full round attacking (travel devotion, belt of battle)

[Element Zero]

Everything is awesome! Finally got some more info from my players. The ranged guy is going warblade 5 and then into 2 levels of bloodstorm blade, then back into warblade. He wants to throw stuff now...

The sorc is gonna do sorc/wiz/ultimate magus. We're working on that together now.

The final player has stated she wants a skillmonkey. Of everything to pick, she picked my greatest weakness as a novice optimizer. I know nothing about skillmonkies except rogue.

Still need help...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ultimate Magus works best with a Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4 entry, and with Illumian (Krau/anything) and Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler you can apply 10/10 UM spellcasting to Wizard. Illumians are Humanoid (Human) so he can even take Able Learner to keep up his ranks in those nice Beguiler skills, and he should have plenty of skill points with Int being his most important stat. Take Versatile Spellcaster and you can use it to spend two Beguiler spell slots to cast a Wizard spells you know of one level higher, and also gives early knowledge of the next level of Beguiler spells. It adds tons of options though it may be a bit overwhelming for a newer player, but if they pick it up quickly it's an extremely fun build to play. With that character in the party you really don't have any need for a dedicated skillmonkey.

[Flickerdart]

Skills? Skills are easy. Factotum 20.

[sirpercival]

UM actually works BEST with Wizard 5/Knight of the Weave 1/UM, but it's good with other things too. :)

As for skillmonkeys, there are a few other threads around right now showing how to do awesome things with a factotum (usually spurred on by me). Seriously... factotum is the way to go.

[Vowtz]

Everything is awesome! Finally got some more info from my players. The ranged guy is going warblade 5 and then into 2 levels of bloodstorm blade, then back into warblade. He wants to throw stuff now...I think you need 4 levels in bloodstorm to full attack from a distance.


The sorc is gonna do sorc/wiz/ultimate magus. We're working on that together now.

Warmage 1[CArc]/Wizard 4[PH]/Ultimate Magus 10[CM]/Fatespinner[CArc] 5

The entire point of this build is,

- shooting an 1d4+5 magic missile on first level is fun
- You will never have to prepare damage spells


For 3rd level feat get practiced spellcaster(warmage)[CA]

When you get ultimate magus, your caster level on Warmage will be higher than that of the wizard class, meaning that the 1st and 4th levels in ultimate magus will improve wizard spells.

With practiced spellcaster you will be able to do respectable damage in every level with just one level in warmage, you can then focus your wizard spells on utility, control, and save or die effects without worry.

on higher levels you can put some wizard spells on warmage list and cast them spontaneously. Also keep in mind that ALL warmage spell list is your known spell list(all spells do the same thing, but it is cool anyway).

On most part of your carreer you will cast as a Wizard-1, but you have more spells, and do more damage.

On 20th level your wizard effective level will be 17, enough for 9th circle spells, and your caster level somewhere about 21, if that is a great problem, you can change the build from level 12 and on, so that just 1 wizard level is lost in the end

Books:
[CArc] Complete Arcane, [CM] Complete Mage, [PH] Players Handbook

[marcielle]

Remember though, a factotum is capable of funktaculous burst damage ONCE by burning all his inspiration to repeatedly Iaijutsu a greased enemy. After this he'll likely be tapped for the rest of the encounter.
Note that you do not actually NEED the gnomish quick razor. Fast Draw will do the same thing if you can get your hands on a cursed weapon. Since you draw a cursed weapon everytime you try to draw another weapon, carry 2 weapons and free action drop the cursed weapon after your first attack. Now try draw your other weapon, which wil cause the cursed weapon to pop back into your hand by itself. Continue till you run out of IP. A cursed katana has no -1 and can be wielded as a bastard sword. This has the double benefit of doing more damage AND being wayy cooler than the tiny little gnomeknife.

Also, if he likes funky toys, tell your skillmonkey to look at Shax Indispensible Haversack.

[sirpercival]

I like the cursed weapon idea (it's like using a chicken as a commoner), but if you use Sapphire Nightmare Blade (or other less-efficient methods of getting your opponents flat-footed) you don't need to burn all your actions on round 1.

[marcielle]

I like the cursed weapon idea (it's like using a chicken as a commoner), but if you use Sapphire Nightmare Blade (or other less-efficient methods of getting your opponents flat-footed) you don't need to burn all your actions on round 1.

Note, the Factotum and the Warblade seem to be seperate people. That being said, Factotum and Warblade actually have a wierd synergy. Factotum 8 Warblade 12 can spam SO MANY MANEUVERS. Couple this with Iaijutsu and few things will survive. Note again that all Cunning Surge attacks are at you highest BAB. Your burst damage will only be surpassed by a ShockPouncer (in practical play).

He could be a tactical striker. Have the sorc/wiz tele him right next to enemy leader. He goes NUKULAR. Then he uses White Raven Tactics to go again and double move to safety.

[sirpercival]

Well, the factotum is not a warblade until he takes a level of warblade. :)

Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12168066&postcount=12) an example build.

[marcielle]

Trickery Devotion? TWO tactical nukes? That's a wee bit of overkill. I like:smallbiggrin:. Travel devotion is sliiightly less useful for Martial initiators though, since they actually need their swift action for a lot of things. Animal Devotion maybe? That aside, Cloistered cleric dip for the 3 devotion feats is pretty sweet and wholly recomended.

Would the trickery shade be able to use IP and maneuvers? If yes then you have wrought dooooooom. Good job, sir.

[sirpercival]

I'm glad you like. :)

It can use your skills, so yes. Who cares if it has a crappy strength? You have weapon finesse and Iaijutsu Focus. And, it can use your magic items w/ UMD because it has all your equipment. :D

I like Travel Devotion just for mobility purposes -- it has more uses than just IF. It lets you, for example, run away very quickly for 10 rounds.

And while this may be "minor munchkinry"... it's not a caster, so a DM can't really complain. lol

[marcielle]

That's why 'minor'. You cant achieve more than moderate munchkinry without full 20 casting. Speaking of which, watch your soon to be UM. You could accidentally create a monster, or worse, a mailman.

[sirpercival]

Haha. My KotW UM is an npc in a pbp game I'm co-dming, and is nothing new.

What's really awesome is my evil ECL 15 psiotheurgist conjurer/ardent/incantatrix/thrallherd using Dragon Mag feats... whose thrall is a binder/ur-priest/divine anima mage binding astaroth and generating dark craft xp and gold via a steady supply of believers.

Or, my uber-gish gestalt wizard/abjurant champion/dweomerkeeper/jade phoenix mage // crusader/cleric/ruby knight vindicator/dweomerkeeper.

[marcielle]

Ok, now you have reached the point where the level of power is no longer worth the effort you put into even comprehending what you can do lol:smalleek:

[sirpercival]

I'm one of those people where I like to really optimize my characters, then I play them at whatever power level the group is at. You can play a character who could break the game without actually breaking the game.

[hex0]

Is the thrower a Halfling? If not, why not? :smallbiggrin: mixing Bloodstorm Blade, Master Thrower, Whisperknife, Halfling Rogue, and Halfling Paragon is just dany.

Alternatively, Dwarven Fighter racial level gets you Weapon Focus in ALL axes, so that may be worth it in a throwing build as well. Brutal throw some Greataxes please.

[Element Zero]

Okay, the characters for that game are set, but now I have a question for my curiosity. Is there a way to get the feel of an Assassin, without having to play the PrC? From my experience it kinda blows, and I'm not a fan of things that blow. Tips and tricks?

[Flickerdart]

Okay, the characters for that game are set, but now I have a question for my curiosity. Is there a way to get the feel of an Assassin, without having to play the PrC? From my experience it kinda blows, and I'm not a fan of things that blow. Tips and tricks?
What do you mean by "feel" of an Assassin? Assassins don't really get anything that Factotum doesn't - they can sneak, they can use poisons (which the feat Master of Poisons does better), they can cast a little, and they can stab people in the neck.

[Myth]

Assassins are great for their spells. Some great ones in the SC. A Shadowdancer fits very well as well.

[Malachei]

Okay, the characters for that game are set, but now I have a question for my curiosity. Is there a way to get the feel of an Assassin, without having to play the PrC? From my experience it kinda blows, and I'm not a fan of things that blow. Tips and tricks?

Swordsage.

[hex0]

Okay, the characters for that game are set, but now I have a question for my curiosity. Is there a way to get the feel of an Assassin, without having to play the PrC? From my experience it kinda blows, and I'm not a fan of things that blow. Tips and tricks?

Telflammor Shadowlord.

[Giltintur]

Heyya Friends!

I'd like to ask for some help.
I'll join a new game of 3.5 in a couple of days, and the GM asked me to send him a couple of character concepts, so he can organise the party.
I', done with two of the three, however, I'm a bit struck with the last one.

Basically the game will be a 4 session game, with a CL of 5-7 (it will be random, who gets what level), and no xp on the run.

I really like the ida of a Knight of the Weave (Champions of Valour p. 111), but I'm struggling with deciding what to begin with.
I considered a Paladin for the feeling, a Sorcerer for the magic, and a Warmage for the optimalisation.

As for a Race, I'll probably choose an aasimar or human. Any ideas on what I should do?

[danzibr]

I just read this on that page:

MONK

The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.
lolololol
Totally agreed.

[Gwendol]

While Factotum has been suggested for the skilled character, I'd recommend Bard instead. Both the OC and the warblade will profit immensly from inspire courage, and the bard can help out in the healing department, leaving the cleric to do other things with his spells (using wands most likely). The choice of spells can be made to not overlap the sorcerer and still be interesting (grease, glitterdust, haste, glibness, alter self are all solid low-level choices). And the bard makes a better face than both the sorcerer and the factotum.