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Deth Muncher
2011-11-03, 08:12 PM
Please keep in mind, this is a work in progress. Things like tables and full descriptions will be added in due time.

As the orc swung again, Ulic's last companion fell. "What now, 'ooman!?" the orc cried. "You'ze just a puny 'ooman, not big and strong like me! I killed your friends, and now I'm gonna kill you! Maybe if you wuz big 'n strong like me, you'd win!"

Ulic thought for a moment. "That could be arranged." Ulic ran at the orc, jumped and bounced off of the orc's head. "Wut wuz that, 'ooman? Dancy-times won't save you!" "Merely obliging you, scum!" yelled Ulic, as he punched the orc squarely in the jaw. "But...wut'z that! You 'ooman's not that strong!" declared the orc, most surprisedly. "You said I should be as strong as you. I agreed." Ulic kicked the orc's sword out of his hand, grabbed it and brought it down on the orc's skull for a fatal blow.

The Copymaster is a class that operates under the old adage "I can do anything better than you can." Specifically, the Copymaster has the ability to mimic the powers and abilities of anyone they touch. This is related in part to Blue Magic (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Magic), or possibly to those who take up the mantles of the Blue Bomber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega_Man_(character)) or Pink Puffball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirby_(character)), but ultimately the powers of the Copymaster come from those whom he faces - or duplicate those of his friends.

A high Dexterity score can help a Copymaster survive until they have a power, as would a decent Constitution score. Decent Charisma could be helpful in certain situations as well.

Hit die: d6
Class Skills: TBD

Class Features:

A Copymaster gains Simple Weapon Proficiency, and proficiency with one other non-exotic ranged or martial weapon of their choice

All of the Copymaster's powers are inherently Extraordinary - that means that having a particular power will not go away in an AMF, cannot be dispelled, and remain with them until the conditions listed below are reached. However, any power that is copied that is normally counterable, dispellable, etc, may be done so.

No creature may be copied from more than once per day.

Dead targets are viable, but must have died within a number of rounds equal to the Copymaster's level.

A Copymaster may not copy a copied power of another Copymaster, unless the Copymaster in question is the rapper Xzibit, or you are playing in the world of Inception ever. There are no recursive copy powers.

No other classes stack with determining any variable effects of the Copymaster class, such as caster level.

A Copymaster may only copy things from one creature at a time, but may copy as many options as their level allows - a 6th level Copymaster, for example, would be able to copy two stats, two skills, one Intrinsic Quality, three feats and one class feature from ONE creature, but could not mix and match from other creatures.

Copy Stats: At level 1, the Copymaster learns his most basic ability - the ability to copy another creature's stats and may replace his own. This effect lasts for one minute per level. The number of stats copyable increases by 1 at every level divisible by 5 (i.e. two stats at level 5, three stats at level 10, etc). The duration of these copyings doubles every time a Copymaster would gain an increase to the number of stats they may copy (2 minutes per level at level 5, 4 minutes per level at level 10, etc).

In order to copy an ability, the Copymaster must make a melee touch attack, with all of the standard rules that apply. This attack deals no damage, but instead grants the Copymaster the desired ability. (Metanote: Unless the Copymaster is copying a stat from an ally, the DM should not disclose the exact statistics of a creature until the Copymaster declares which stat he wants to copy. In the result of a score being lower than the Copymaster's score, it remains unchanged, but that part of the effect fails - if multiple scores are chosen and some of them are greater than those of the Copymaster, those copy while those lower do not.)

A copied stat may be discarded at any time as a Free Action that does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity.
If a Copymaster would lose consciousness (either via a Sleep effect, loss of hitpoints, stat drain, etc), a Copymaster immediately loses any abilities they have copied.

Copy Skills: At level 2, a Copymaster gains the ability to copy the skills of a creature. The process for acquiring the copies skills is exactly the same as copying stats, and may happen at the same time (i.e. a Copymaster might copy an Orc's strength and Intimidate skill). The duration scheme follows that of Copy Stats. At every level divisible by 3, a Copymaster may choose another skill to copy. The special note about copied skills is that the Copymaster's score for that skill becomes that of the target creature - it uses the creature's stats at the time of copy, not the Copymaster's (i.e. if a Copymaster has a higher Charisma than the orc, but copies Intimidate, the orc's Charisma is still the one used).

Copy Intrinsic Qualities: At level 3, the Copymaster starts getting to the bread and butter of their abilities - namely, copying those of others. At this point, when a Copymaster copies from a creature, choose one of the following: they gain any weapon proficiencies that the target creature currently has; they gain any natural attacks the target creature has (which includes a physical transformation if need be - though the size modifiers for the natural attacks stay the same as the size of the Copymaster, not of the target creature); they gain any Natural Armor the target creature currently has (which includes a physical transformation to reflect the kind of DR - stony skin, scaly skin, etc); they gain the BAB of the target creature; they gain the Saves of the target creature (with the target creature's bonuses, not those of the Copymaster). At every level divisible by 4, choose another Intrinsic Quality to copy.

Copy Feats: At level 4, the Copymaster starts being able to learn from the experiences of the creature they copy, and gain access to feats the target creature possesses, equal to the Copymaster's level divided by 2. While a Copymaster may copy any of the feats they want, the feats will not function until all prerequisites are met (i.e. a Copymaster needs Dodge and Mobility before copying Spring Attack). These prerequisites may be met either with the Copymaster's own abilities and feats, or by those copied at the same time.

Copy At Range (Sp): At level 5, the Copymaster is able to copy the powers of a creature at range. This is a Close-range ray (25ft +5' per level), requiring a ranged touch attack, and may be countered, etc, just like a normal spell. This ray does not automatically bypass Spell Resistance.

Since the Copymaster is not getting as much direct contact with the target, he is not able to draw on the abilities of the target creature quite as well as normal, and anything copied this way counts as if it were done by a Copymaster of four levels lower (i.e. a level 5 Copymaster who copied at range would only be able to pick one stat to copy, just like a level 1).

Copy Class Features: At level 6, the Copymaster is able to understand the more intricate parts of how classes work. A Copymaster may choose to copy and one class feature a creature possesses. This could be the ability to cast spells, the ability to find traps, Bardic Knowledge, whatever. The ability functions exactly as it would for the target creature, except as noted below. The number of class features increases to two at level 12, and three at level 20.

Any spellcasting ability copied requires that the Copymaster have a stat at the level required to cast the spell - so if a Copymaster copied a Sorceror's spellcasting, he would need to either have or copy a high enough Charisma to cast the spells. Additionally, a Copymaster only receives one spell per spell level of the spellcaster able to be cast - if this is a prepared caster, the Copymaster picks any of the spells prepared: if spontaneous, any spell on the target creature's spell list. This increases to two spells at level 10, and three spells at level 15. For any spell effect from this ability, the Caster Level of the spell is equal to the Copymaster's level. The Copymaster must provide all experience points and costly material components associated with the spell. If the XP cost of a spell would make the Copymaster lose a level, the Copymaster cannot cast that spell.

Any other class feature uses the Copymaster's level to determine numeric values - a 6th level Copymaster could Sneak Attack as a 6th level Rogue, for example, regardless of the level of the Rogue copied.

Copy Racial Feature: At level 8, a Copymaster understands how creatures work at a more biological level, and may copy those abilities. Every four levels, the Copymaster may pick another Racial Feature to copy. Racial features are things which include, but are not limited to: Wings, movement stypes, Spell-Like Abilities, ability to breathe in places that aren't air, etc. If Spell-Like Abilities are chosen, they function exactly as copying Spellcasting works (see above), unless the number of times that the creature can use the ability left for that day is less than the total number of times a Copymaster is allowed to use the ability, in which case it goes to the lower number - for example, if a Copymaster tags an Ogre Mage, any of the unlimited use abilities are reduced to the number that the Copymaster could use them - but if that same ogre mage had already used his Cone of Cold, the Copymaster could not copy it.

Copy Traits: At level 12, the Copymaster learns how to physically alter their bodies to be even more similar to those they copy. At this level, they may copy traits of a creature - such as undead traits, construct traits, ooze traits, etc. However, their body changes physically to show this - their flesh may seem to be rotting, or their skin may harden and change color into whatever material the construct was, or they may become very squishy despite retaining their shape. This ability does not confer to their equipment - so if a Copymaster who copied an ooze tried to squeeze through a crack, they could do so - but be very naked when they reformed. In addition, this ability also grants elemental resistance equal to the Copymaster's level of the type of elemental copied, if whatever they copied had any sort of elemental subtype.

Copy Reserve: At 15th level, the Copymaster is able to hold a copy form in reserve. They may hold a copy form in reserve for a number of hours equal to their Copymaster level, and may hold a copy while using the abilities of another. Activating the held power is a Move Action that provokes an Attack of Opportunity, and completely discards the other powers being used.

Copy Mastery At twentieth level, the Copymaster is truly that - a master of the forms he emulates. All time limits are removed from copying powers - they may be used (or reserved) indefinitely, until the Copymaster discards them or falls unconscious. The Copymaster may copy as many stats, skills, or class features as they desire. The Copymaster gains the ability to Polymorph themselves at will, as per the spell, though restricted to any forms they have previously copied/taken power from in the past (i.e. if the Copymaster hasn't copied a Dragon's powers, they can't Polymorph into one). This also means that a Copymaster can use this ability to Polymorph into things people normally cannot, such as undead or constructs, and this also means they can use all of the abilities that creature would normally have, unlike the spell. A Copymaster may do this a number of times equal to their base Constitution modifier.


Ulic McGillicutty, Copymaster Extraordinaire

15th level Copymaster
Human
HD: 15d6 + Con
Str15, Con14, Dex16, Wis12, Int14, Cha13
Saves:?
BAB:?
AC: 15 (10 + 2(armor) + 3(Dex)
Attacks:
Unarmed Strike - 1d4+2
Crossbow - +3 to hit, 1d6 x2
Special abilities:
Copy Stats - Ulic may copy up to four stats from target creature.
Copy Skills - Ulic may copy up to five skills from target creature.
Copy Intrinsic Qualities - Ulic may copy up to three Intrinsic Qualities from target creature.
Copy Class Features - Ulic may copy up to two class features from target creature.
Copy Racial Features - Ulic may copy up to two racial features from target creature.
Copy Traits - Ulic may copy target creature's trait.
Copy Reserve - Ulic may hold one copy form in reserve.

Design Notes:
This concept came from realizing the fact that there is quite literally no way to emulate the kind of "Megaman" or "Kirby" or Rogue (X-Men) style power stealing - sure, you can Psychic Reformation or Chaos Shuffle your way to be like the person you want to emulate, or you can use one of the Blue Mage homebrews and have enemies hit you, but there is no "I touch you, your power is mine" type of deal. This kind of character is, quite literally, the everyman - not only can you emulate the powers of your enemies, but it also means you can double up, to a certain extent, on what you already have in your party. Need another healer? Yeah, Copymaster can do it in a pinch. Another beatstick? Well, you might have to have him find another stick to beat with, but sure, he'll do. However, the limits on spellcasting and feats, etc, exist so that you do not literally just become another person - while emulating their abilities is good, and it's what you're going for, deep down you're always you. The "maintain power unless unconscious" schtick is also a play off of Megaman and Kirby - in Kirby, if you took enough damage, you'd lose your power, and in both of them, if you died you respawn in your default form. The Copymaster should, at low levels, probably follow the same kind of idea as the Wizard or Sorceror - buy a ranged weapon to weaken enemies at a distance, and then run up, tag the enemy to get their power and defeat them. Or defeat them, then get their power and weapon and proceed to defeat other things.

Changelog
[spoiler] Edit 1: Removed bit about being able to copy different kinds of creatures at different levels. Added "or martial weapon" to weapon proficiency line. Added "Copy At Range."

Qwertystop
2011-11-03, 08:47 PM
Looks cool. Obviously, its power is very dependent on that of its allies and enemies.

Deth Muncher
2011-11-03, 08:56 PM
Looks cool. Obviously, its power is very dependent on that of its allies and enemies.

Very true. On a solo adventure, the Copymaster might be in a bit of a pinch. In a low-optimization game, he might be doing okay depending. On a high-op game, it could be dangerous. But that's why there's the 1/day/creature limitation on copying.

motionmatrix
2011-11-03, 10:41 PM
as long as he has a target, he has something to copy, assuming he isn't high enough to simply copy someone before going off gallivanting solo. That said, seems like a cool concept. I would play it with a large group.

Deth Muncher
2011-11-03, 10:59 PM
as long as he has a target, he has something to copy, assuming he isn't high enough to simply copy someone before going off gallivanting solo. That said, seems like a cool concept. I would play it with a large group.

True, though the built-in downside is you don't always have something GOOD to copy.

motionmatrix
2011-11-06, 02:23 PM
very true. but then I guess that means there is nothing good attacking him either ;)

motionmatrix
2011-11-06, 02:31 PM
two more things:

specify if missing the touch attack still expends a copy charge.

and

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205677 to make a table, it is really easy.

Deth Muncher
2011-11-06, 06:35 PM
specify if missing the touch attack still expends a copy charge.


How do you mean? A Copymaster wouldn't have any kind of copy charge until they have already touched someone - if they miss, they don't have it.

Or do you mean if they already have one and they go to copy someone else? Technically they can get rid of their copy charge as a free action, so basically any time, up to and including the moment before they tag someone to take their power. Though if they get rid of their copy charge and MISS the attack, they'd obviously not have the power anymore.

motionmatrix
2011-11-06, 09:14 PM
I assumed the copymaster could only copy a certain amount of times per day

Qwertystop
2011-11-06, 09:15 PM
very true. but then I guess that means there is nothing good attacking him either ;)

If it's attacking at range, it doesn't matter how good it is, he can't copy it.

This class actually fails horribly against ranged enemies. Maybe give it a way to copy at range, but only as a copymaster of, say, 4 levels lower. Can copy less, but can do it against a spellcaster who doesn't like melee touch attacks (most spellcasters).

Deth Muncher
2011-11-06, 09:31 PM
If it's attacking at range, it doesn't matter how good it is, he can't copy it.

This class actually fails horribly against ranged enemies. Maybe give it a way to copy at range, but only as a copymaster of, say, 4 levels lower. Can copy less, but can do it against a spellcaster who doesn't like melee touch attacks (most spellcasters).

Hm. That's a thought. The assumption I had been operating under is that of the low level wizard - use your spells on what you can, use a crossbow or something on foes you can't. Either that or copy a friend, but that operates under the assumption you've got a buddy around you can borrow powers from.

I'll probably add in something like this when I get a chance - maybe as a ranged touch attack, make it similar to a spell so things with Spell Resistance etc. could have a chance against it. Actually, that's an idea: Do I make it a RTA that follows all the same rules as the normal one but operates at 4 levels lower, or do I make it an RTA subject to Spell Resistance operating at full power?



I assumed the copymaster could only copy a certain amount of times per day

Oh, no, he's got the power to copy other people all day every day - he just can't hold on to that power for very long, nor can he copy the same person more than once a day (prevents abuse of "lol look I casts spells now! lol look I'm replenishing these spells!")

Qwertystop
2011-11-06, 09:33 PM
Hm. That's a thought. The assumption I had been operating under is that of the low level wizard - use your spells on what you can, use a crossbow or something on foes you can't. Either that or copy a friend, but that operates under the assumption you've got a buddy around you can borrow powers from.

I'll probably add in something like this when I get a chance - maybe as a ranged touch attack, make it similar to a spell so things with Spell Resistance etc. could have a chance against it. Actually, that's an idea: Do I make it a RTA that follows all the same rules as the normal one but operates at 4 levels lower, or do I make it an RTA subject to Spell Resistance operating at full power?

I agree with making it similar to a low-level Wizard in that way, but only for low levels.

Maybe both. Spell resistance is bypass-able. Make it weaker and resistible.

crazydude369
2011-11-06, 10:56 PM
I'm a little confused about the difference between traits and racial features. Does this just mean that at first they get only one aspect of the target's race, while gaining them all at later levels? Also, do you mean abilities when you say stats? Cool idea though, and I definitely appreciate the meme references in there. :smallwink:

Tavar
2011-11-07, 12:02 AM
Hmm. Not sure about this. Obviously, getting the tables up would help, but copying abilities can be very, very powerful.

Deth Muncher
2011-11-07, 01:14 AM
I'm a little confused about the difference between traits and racial features. Does this just mean that at first they get only one aspect of the target's race, while gaining them all at later levels? Also, do you mean abilities when you say stats? Cool idea though, and I definitely appreciate the meme references in there. :smallwink:

1. The "Copy Traits" ability is specifically in reference to a race having something in its description called "Trait." Specifically, Constructs have Construct Traits (which are things like critical hit negation, etc), Oozes have Ooze Traits, so on so forth.

2. Yes. Stats, Ability Scores, they're fairly interchangeable, though by abilities I believe I may have meant some ambiguity with that to just be a catchall referring to anything that may be copied. I think I need to run back through this with a fine-toothed comb to reword a few things to make it not confusing.

Also, Tavar: You are absolutely right that copying abilities can be powerful. Almost too powerful, depending on who you copy. This is why I made sure that duplicating spellcasting was limited, as well as natural SLA's certain races have - while someone could, conceivably have their Wizard buddy Gate in a Solar, tag them and get the Wish SLA, etc etc, that's not exactly feasible all the time. Also why I left them at a kind of low hitdie - while ultimately the Copymaster wants to get into the fray at least a little bit so they can yoink some powers, if they're not good at it then they go splat before anything fun happens.

Deth Muncher
2011-11-07, 12:08 PM
Okay guys. I changed a few things, and added a changelog so you can see what those were.

Tavar
2011-11-09, 12:02 AM
Eh...couple problems. First off, make a table: it's help the class's presentation greatly. Secondly, you should probably mention if using the main ability provokes, as well as establishing what kind of ability it is. Thirdly, you need to work out their proficiencys, BAB, Saves, etc.

Finally, it seems there's one, primary issue with the class. Namely, that being able to take abilities irrespective of CR is OMGWTF broken. It's like if a copy-based caster could use spells not based on spell level, but on spell school: abilities aren't divided that way. You've limited class features and spell like abilities, true, but that simply takes some of the more powerful options away. They can still do similar things as a DMM Cleric, but without really expending resources. The only issue with that is that they have to get into combat first, so it's essentially a suicide class.

Also, I think this class has a bit of internal conflict. It wants to be a frontliner, but it seems very fragile. You compare it to casters, but that's not apt at all. Casters have very powerful long range weapons, and only resort to ranged weaponry as a fall back if necessary(and it's arguably how necessary that is). This class's power relies on being in the frontline, so that it can use it's ability reliably, and yet you seem to want them to hang back. It's just odd.

Thugorp
2011-11-10, 02:06 PM
I agree very much with the above poster, plus and minus a bit.

First, I am not really sure how fragile the class is. I admit that form what is up now it does seem so, BUT, Death, you really must get a table up so we can see B.A.B. and the Fort./Ref./Will save progressions(or at least tell us what they should be). We also need to know which the hit die is, and what armor proficiency they have before we can really know how fragile they are.

Since I mentioned the table and that sort of thing already I will also quickly mention that skill-points/level, is also missing as is the list of class skills.

The above is important however the thing that bothers me most here is actually one of the first lines, specifically the following one: "All of the Copymaster's powers are inherently Extraordinary."
Why is this so? What I mean by that is why would this be the case? According to the S.R.D. an extraordinary ability is, "nonmagical, though may break the laws of physics. [An extraordinary ability is] not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training."
Yes I realize that the boldding there, looks suspect but I am just trying to emphasize for clarity(so don't be so paranoid:-p). Extraordinary abilities are supposed to be just that, EXTRAORDINARY, but not magical or even in-explicable in nature. Many of the abilities of this class strait-up emulate previously published spells, and the capstone gives unlimited use of one by name. It seems somewhat in appropriate(and a little over powered) to make these abilities Ex. instead of S.L. or(if the fluff fits) Su. abilities.

Final comment about class mechanics:
There is defiantly one big five level long stretch(between 15th. & 20th. levels) where the levels are, 'dead.' There might be other gaps as well, though I didn't read to notice them when I read through your post. I would suggest maybe sticking a bonus feat in the middle of any dead level grouping of 4 or more, to break up the monotony for potential players. Alternatively you could rearrange and spread-out the abilities the Copymaster gains earlier on. :-)

Final comment, the grammar and word choice needs quite a bit of work, people will get annoyed when you P.E.A.C.H. this if the grammar does not get fixed. I would also suggest looking at a few other posters homebrew classes so you can become more familiar with our formatting conventions(ex. not putting class features in a spoiler). YES I SEE THE IRONY! ... [I]though my grammar is error-less. :-)

Deth Muncher
2011-11-10, 05:38 PM
Eh...couple problems. First off, make a table: it's help the class's presentation greatly. Secondly, you should probably mention if using the main ability provokes, as well as establishing what kind of ability it is. Thirdly, you need to work out their proficiencys, BAB, Saves, etc.

Finally, it seems there's one, primary issue with the class. Namely, that being able to take abilities irrespective of CR is OMGWTF broken. It's like if a copy-based caster could use spells not based on spell level, but on spell school: abilities aren't divided that way. You've limited class features and spell like abilities, true, but that simply takes some of the more powerful options away. They can still do similar things as a DMM Cleric, but without really expending resources. The only issue with that is that they have to get into combat first, so it's essentially a suicide class.

Also, I think this class has a bit of internal conflict. It wants to be a frontliner, but it seems very fragile. You compare it to casters, but that's not apt at all. Casters have very powerful long range weapons, and only resort to ranged weaponry as a fall back if necessary(and it's arguably how necessary that is). This class's power relies on being in the frontline, so that it can use it's ability reliably, and yet you seem to want them to hang back. It's just odd.


I agree very much with the above poster, plus and minus a bit.

First, I am not really sure how fragile the class is. I admit that form what is up now it does seem so, BUT, Death, you really must get a table up so we can see B.A.B. and the Fort./Ref./Will save progressions(or at least tell us what they should be). We also need to know which the hit die is, and what armor proficiency they have before we can really know how fragile they are.

Since I mentioned the table and that sort of thing already I will also quickly mention that skill-points/level, is also missing as is the list of class skills.

The above is important however the thing that bothers me most here is actually one of the first lines, specifically the following one: "All of the Copymaster's powers are inherently Extraordinary."
Why is this so? What I mean by that is why would this be the case? According to the S.R.D. an extraordinary ability is, "nonmagical, though may break the laws of physics. [An extraordinary ability is] not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training."
Yes I realize that the boldding there, looks suspect but I am just trying to emphasize for clarity(so don't be so paranoid:-p). Extraordinary abilities are supposed to be just that, EXTRAORDINARY, but not magical or even in-explicable in nature. Many of the abilities of this class strait-up emulate previously published spells, and the capstone gives unlimited use of one by name. It seems somewhat in appropriate(and a little over powered) to make these abilities Ex. instead of S.L. or(if the fluff fits) Su. abilities.

Final comment about class mechanics:
There is defiantly one big five level long stretch(between 15th. & 20th. levels) where the levels are, 'dead.' There might be other gaps as well, though I didn't read to notice them when I read through your post. I would suggest maybe sticking a bonus feat in the middle of any dead level grouping of 4 or more, to break up the monotony for potential players. Alternatively you could rearrange and spread-out the abilities the Copymaster gains earlier on. :-)

Final comment, the grammar and word choice needs quite a bit of work, people will get annoyed when you P.E.A.C.H. this if the grammar does not get fixed. I would also suggest looking at a few other posters homebrew classes so you can become more familiar with our formatting conventions(ex. not putting class features in a spoiler). YES I SEE THE IRONY! ... [I]though my grammar is error-less. :-)

Okay - responding to the big points in a sec, but first, a big apology about the tables - I wrote up this class without realizing that I have about four different long papers (and several short papers) due within this month's span, so that's why I haven't formatted in tables or anything. When I get a few hours, I'll edit out a few of the kinks and add in the table.

Re: Health/HD - I have it listed as a d6 HD, but I'm tempted to bump it to d8. Not entirely sure.
Re: Proficiencies, Saves, BAB - the proficiencies are listed: all simple, plus one martial of your choosing. Although it seems I've left off armor proficiency...should probably add that in. I'd say up to Medium armor, and all shields excluding tower shields. Saves...are there any classes that just have medium saves all the way across? Because that's kind of what I see this class being on its own - mediocre until copying someone (since better stats = better saves, etc). BAB I think should be 3/4 or full.
Re: "Suiciding," copying abilities - While it IS sort of a "suicide" class, I did put in the ranged copy so that it doesn't QUITE have to be. And while it CAN do things like a DMM Cleric...it can't do it forever (until level 20, but even then the capstone might be a bit too bonkers). Also, it's got no way to replenish spells - it's entirely dependent on whoever he tags to have spells, and even then, even if he just hangs on to them, he's only got them for a maximum total of 19 minutes at level 19 (or 190 rounds, which can be more than a full combat, but not a full dungeon crawl).
Re: Skills - Yeah, that was kind of a derp on my part. I meant to go add them back in, but forgot and haven't had time. I'm thinking 4+Int per level in Skill Points, but still need to figure out what exactly needs to be in Class Skills. Tumble, for sure.
Re: Extraordinary vs. Anything Else - I did this because I didn't want their powers to be dispellable, plain and simple. It's sort of like a Changeling or Doppleganger - but on further inspection, it seems as though the Doppleganger's abilities are Supernatural, which means an AMF will kill them but they can't be dispelled. So I'll change them to that.
Re: Dead Levels - You're right, I probably need to rearrange some of the earlier things - I mean, a lot of the powers seem to get into full swing and get a lot of extra uses later on, but there are still probably an unacceptable number of dead levels.
Re: Grammar, formatting - Yeah, you're right. I don't begrudge you for picking on the grammar and formatting - it needs it, especially if it's going to be actually readable. :P

Tavar
2011-11-10, 06:06 PM
....
Okay, you're missing what I said. The key part about the DMM Cleric isn't that it allows them to use spells, it's that it allows them to use a specific set of spells to gain full BaB plus a host of other abilities for long periods of time without giving up their other abilities. What does this class allow one to do? The Exact same thing. For Example, look at a giant crocodile. The Copycat uses the ability against one at level 5. His BaB increases by at least 1, and his Str increases to 27. So, a total of +13 to attack. At level 4.

Also, the ranged ability comes in quite late, and is quite limited. So, I'm not sure how much that helps, especially at the lower level, when rockettag is at it's worst.

Deth Muncher
2011-11-11, 10:25 AM
....
Okay, you're missing what I said. The key part about the DMM Cleric isn't that it allows them to use spells, it's that it allows them to use a specific set of spells to gain full BaB plus a host of other abilities for long periods of time without giving up their other abilities. What does this class allow one to do? The Exact same thing. For Example, look at a giant crocodile. The Copycat uses the ability against one at level 5. His BaB increases by at least 1, and his Str increases to 27. So, a total of +13 to attack. At level 4.

Also, the ranged ability comes in quite late, and is quite limited. So, I'm not sure how much that helps, especially at the lower level, when rockettag is at it's worst.

Oh. Well. Uh. -adjusts hat- Well then. :P I had thought perhaps the relatively short amount of copy time would balance that. But...hm. What if I made it so that the Copymaster could never copy BAB, and any stat increase could only ever be up to twice the level of the Copymaster? So yeah, at lower levels he's only getting a little extra boost on stats, but later on he can still pretty much copy up to any stat?

Or is that too little/in the wrong department?

And re: ranged copy, I could make it where instead of the 4 levels lower, it lasted for a shorter period of time and give it to them at a lower level?

Tavar
2011-11-13, 01:24 PM
It's measured in minutes per level, so one copy will last the entirety of most fights.

And, the difficulty is that doing what you propose probably makes them too weak. I mean, in that case, what can they actually do?