the skilled combatant: what to do without spells or 60 strength?(build help)[3.5]

[kulosle]

so i've been trying really hard lately to make a character is the true essence of a skilled character. i have made some rather good skill monkeys in the past but i'm tired of it being a monkey. so here's what i really want to do. i want a character who's main focus is his skills, but is still awesome in a fight. i want to be good in combat without having high damaging spells, or a sword twice my size, or a crazy SA optimization, or mind bullets, or some ancient fighting technique that monks living on a hill top spent 20 years teaching me or a crazy demon to buff me... etc. you get the point.

ways i know of fighting via skills
(my favorite) is the obvious iaijustsu focus i know this trick and love it.
(second favorite) knowledge devotion. yup its just hard to beat
intimidation can lock down the entire enemy team. awesome
tumble is an obvious must here, no AoO, tumbling strike
ride is also good, use ride check to avoid damage, and make a lot more combat tactics open.
UMD i don't want to be a wand junky, that's not a skill character.
bluff for feinting if i end up needing that
skill tricks yay i will totally use them
craft poison is useful till you DM decides to only throw poison immune monsters at you
craft alchemy slow and costly but it worth mentioning

ways of fighting that is skill related
inspire courage is skill based and i've seen this been optimized to crazy proportions.
the dervish dance is also a skill based, but this is going a little too much into fighter territory. it's still good and i might still end up using it if its really the only class out there.
acrobatic strike feat for bonus when you stumble past someone

ways of fighting that is int based
FACTOTUM definitely has to be in this build
for the rest please see my sig for int bonus to Y stat

stuff that kind of fit my theme
invisible blade
iaijutsu master
archivist
master thrower
exotic weapon master (ish)
...

is there anything i'm missing, is there a way to make this into a combatant build. the only thing i have come up with so far is:
factotum 3/bard 2/invisible blade 5/dervish 10
its close but not it exactly.
i'm not entirely against the idea of making it a int and cha character adding a paladin dip (specifically the harmonizing knight) and marshal. also i'm not just looking for a int and/or cha SAD build. also animal companions are a good cause it's skill related, handle animal, and they use the skills you don't want to take, survival track spot listen. leadership i might consider, but i'm not big on it. and the majority of things i would get i like spells and smite i would like to be consumed by things like arcane strike and sword to song (turns smites into bardic music IIRC).

sorry this is so long. basically i'm laying out every thing i've been working on for the past few months and begging for help. i've hit a creative block that won't let me move past this. any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[CactusAir]

What do you mean by skill and strength?

You seem to call things that have nothing to do with D&D skill checks "skill" and have something about 60 STR in the title, which makes no sense for a PC with no casting.

[Zombimode]

Swordsage 1 / Rogue 2 (for Evasion) / Swashbuckler X = be competent in melee with a Str score of 10.

[kulosle]

by skill i mean skillful, not necessarily the skills and skill points. i want this characters aptitude to come from how skillful he is, not how strong he is or how many spells he knows. hence the title. what do you do with a character that doesn't have spells or 60 strength? 60 is a bit of an exaggeration but there are builds out there that do it.
i should have specified that i also don't want martial maneuvers. 2 reasons, 1 it's not really the feel i'm looking for, 2 too many DMs i know ban ToB. cause heaven forbid that melee characters have nice things.

[limejuicepowder]

What do you mean by skill and strength?

You seem to call things that have nothing to do with D&D skill checks "skill" and have something about 60 STR in the title, which makes no sense for a PC with no casting.

He means a character that has no spellcasting AND doesn't have 60 strength - an actual skill-based character. It's not an obvious build to make really, there's not a lot of room for those types (as much as a the books mention weap finesse/rapier being "terrific," it generally sucks).

[kulosle]

He means a character that has no spellcasting AND doesn't have 60 strength - an actual skill-based character. It's not an obvious build to make really, there's not a lot of room for those types (as much as a the books mention weap finesse/rapier being "terrific," it generally sucks).

YES, exactly. Wizards of the coast dropped the ball on this one. its a character that they keep teasing to exist, but it just doesn't. there are a lot of almost builds that exist because someone found a cool trick that's interesting, but there is nothing to support them. d&d has a lot (a lot a lot) of minor (very minor) things for the skill based character but they have little to no synergy with each other for anyone to make a respectable build with. the "skilled fighter" is as bad as a samurai.

[Knaight]

YES, exactly. Wizards of the coast dropped the ball on this one. its a character that they keep teasing to exist, but it just doesn't. there are a lot of almost builds that exist because someone found a cool trick that's interesting, but there is nothing to support them. d&d has a lot (a lot a lot) of minor (very minor) things for the skill based character but they have little to no synergy with each other for anyone to make a respectable build with. the "skilled fighter" is as bad as a samurai.

Tome of Battle works well here. Take decent dex, play a lightly armored Warblade that uses lots of Diamond Mind and White Raven. Both have places where skill checks are relevant, so pump those up.

[Hirax]

If you can convince your DM to allow factotum to qualify you for swiftblade, it isn't a bad option. It gets spring attack and bounding assault for free, meaning you could leap from hiding, unload your inspiration points into a sneak attack, then move back into hiding all in the same turn.

Is something like this what you're looking for?

[kulosle]

swift blade is a nice class and would be able to work off of bard at the very least. but its a character who specializes in a spell. not on his own capabilities. i know i'm being kinda vague when describing this character, but it can't be helped.

[Hirax]

Do throwing builds do anything for you? IE, throwing 10 daggers in a round? Or throwing a single dagger multiple times in the same round to hit one or multiple targets?

[Gullintanni]

I actually find that a Str/Int based Rogue3/Swash3 + Daring Outlaw that charges comes out further ahead than a TWFighter.

Human

Final - L4 Rogue/L11 Swashbuckler/L2 Thug Fighter/Wolf Totem for Imp. Trip - Spirit Lion Whirling Frenzy Variant L2 Barbarian/L1 Nightsong Enforcer

Feats
1 - EWP Spiked Chain
Human - Power Attack
(L2) Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse
Level 3 - Imp. Bull Rush
Level 6 - Daring Outlaw
(L7) Fighter 1 - Shock Trooper
(L8) Fighter 2 - Leap Attack
Level 9 - Craven
(L10) Barb 2 - Improved Trip
Level 12 - Combat Reflexes
Level 15 - Improved Initiative
Level 18 - Open

This build comes out with 10d6 Sneak Attack with a Rogues Vest, Int + Str to damage against precision vulnerable targets, and charging for everything else. It's also a decent enough tripper that you've got a second shtick for things immune to precision (although the penetrating strike ACF gives you some love there too).

You can also eschew the Trip path by dropping Wolf totem Barbarian, dropping Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative (disqualifying you for Nightsong Enforcer so your Sneak Attack comes down to 9d6 with Rogue's Vest) and grab a Ring of Blinking + Blind Fight, Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment.

Either of these builds comes out with 19/20 BAB and the Ring of Blinking ensures contact Sneak Attacking. Plus you've got a decent array of skills because of the Int focus.

With Int based fighting, you come out as skilled fighting. No crazy SA optimization although it's there if you want it. You're not terribly dependent on spells (though a few buffs to keep your accuracy up are helpful). Your charging shtick, with the Twisted Charge skill trick and Swashbuckler's acrobatic charge class feature make it a little harder to deny you charges, and with the rink of blinking you'll always have a source of extra damage. Your Abilities look like this depending on the array:

Abilities: 28 point buy

Str: 14 (6)
Con: 14 (6)
Dex: 12 (4)
Wis: 10 (2)
Int: 16 (10)
Cha: 8 (0)

Abilities: 32 point buy

Str: 16 (10)
Con: 14 (6)
Dex: 12 (4)
Wis: 10 (2)
Int: 16 (10)
Cha: 8 (0)

Skillful in combat. Skillful out of combat. Very competent.

[kulosle]

yes it does actually. i've considered the master thrower. very much the feel of this. i should include that in the op. but all those builds end up looking like warblade 5/master thrower 5/bloodstorm blade 10 is there any other build for this?

[sirpercival]

Honestly, the most fun you'll probably have with a character like this is Factotum. Factotum is the best skillful class, and using Iaijutsu Focus, gnomish quickrazor, and methods to get your opponent flat-footed you can be quite effective in combat (particularly with extra actions).

Here's a factotum build that isn't straight Fac20, try it on for size:

Changeling Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Factotum 3/Chameleon 2/Factotum +13

32pb: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 14

1 Changeling Rogue Sub Level 1, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Able Learner (flaw), Skill Focus: Iaijutsu Focus (flaw, retrained at level 3)
2 Cloistered Cleric 1, Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Trickery Devotion
3 Factotum 1, Weapon Finesse
4 Factotum 2, +1 Int
5 Factotum 3
6 Chameleon 1, EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor
7 Chameleon 2, floating feat
8-20 Factotum 4-16, all level boosts to Int, all feats Font of Inspiration

Max out Iaijutsu Focus, Tumble, UMD (you don't need to UMD cleric items), Sleight of Hand, Knowledges, and whatever else you want, but make sure to get 5 ranks in Balance for IF synergy; get the skill tricks Sudden Draw, Acrobatic Backstab, Escape Attack. Faerie Mysteries Initiate gets you Int to hp, removing any Con dependence. CC 1 gets you three amazing Devotion feats and a turn-undead pool you can use to power them (grab some nightsticks, and note that with a 10 wisdom, you can't cast any cleric spells higher than 0th level).

You have a lot of inspiration points you can use to get extra actions, ignore DR, and all the other fun stuff like Int to damage and most of your skills. You have a floating feat, so you can either get another FoI or just grab whatever feat you need on a given day.

Important Equipment includes masterwork tools for any and all skills (especially IF and Knowledge), Stat boosters to Dex, Int, Cha. An alternative feat to take would be Item Familiar, which could give you massive bonuses to IF and Knowledges.

EDIT: An alternative strategy: Take a dip level in Master of Masks to get proficiency with all exotic weapons (instead of taking EWP), then take Boomerang Daze and have an aptitude quickrazor. Then... win initiative. You daze your opponent over and over again with the quickrazor (DC should be huge with IF) and they never get an action, so they are always flat-footed. For example, use a +1 aptitude eager warning quickrazor with a wand chamber and a wand of nerveskitter (should be easy to make the DC20 check). With +6 dex gloves and +6 int headband (and +5 tome) you should have an initiative check of +29, without taking Improved Init. That should win you init against most anything but a deity, and then you can daze the crap out of it (as long as your enemy is not immune to daze) and keep using IF.

[Seharvepernfan]

Factotum/warblade with iron heart and diamond mind maneuvers.

You'll be getting your int to almost everything, your tumble will be through the roof, and you honestly won't need an ounce of strength (but it helps, of course). No magic, either.

[Raendyn]

make a rogue/wizard - spellwarp sniper with two levels in Wyrm wizard to grab wings of flurry.

after you got 4ths you can tottally dump spellcasting & take ANY class/PrC you want.

Range touch attack that stun no save. Only ray deflection, friendly fire/ bad luck can stop you & you can add craven and a level of cleric for aditional yummy! Knowledge domain-->devotion.

BoEdeeds has a feat that gives you + 1 skill/hd which might come handy.

You end up with 8 spellcasting levels minimum & 12 of whatever can make you happy, You still know everything, are more tha capable for combat, & have 12 free levels

[kulosle]

i do adore factotum and i have been considering a one level cloister cleric dip. and i forgot about the 2 level dip in chameleon dip. i kinda like this build. i'll do some dry runs with this and see how it plays.

i must admit how appealing the warblade is, especially with feats like song of the white raven.
i'm a bit new to ToB, so i'll give it another look. but i would like to avoid it if i can because i do know far too many people who ban it. why do DMs not like ToB? but thats a discussion for a different time. could someone list what weapons belong to what styles or the page where that is listed?

and as a recap lets name the classic, "i call my self a skilled character" tricks
i took a 3 level dip in factotum
i have the nymphs kiss, jack of all trades, and able learner feats
i took a 1 level in changling rogue (not as good as a race with int bonus)

and thats the basics there are a few other tricks but they are less common. i know them and use them but there has to be more.


EDIT: An alternative strategy: Take a dip level in Master of Masks to get proficiency with all exotic weapons (instead of taking EWP), then take Boomerang Daze and have an aptitude quickrazor. Then... win initiative. You daze your opponent over and over again with the quickrazor (DC should be huge with IF) and they never get an action, so they are always flat-footed. For example, use a +1 aptitude eager warning quickrazor with a wand chamber and a wand of nerveskitter (should be easy to make the DC20 check). With +6 dex gloves and +6 int headband (and +5 tome) you should have an initiative check of +29, without taking Improved Init. That should win you init against most anything but a deity, and then you can daze the crap out of it (as long as your enemy is not immune to daze) and keep using IF.

while i personally think this is hilarious, i do not currently own a large enough tower shield that could protect my head from the mountain of books that would fall upon it if i attempted this.

[sirpercival]

For my build, if you take MoM you could axe the rogue level and just be human with another level of Factotum -- getting Cunning Breach is a pretty good idea for this character.

EDIT: Also, as a skillful character, you absolutely MUST have Trickery Devotion. It's essential, not just because it can use UMD on phantom magic items for you, but it can also aid you, flank with you, and since it's very Strength-independent it can attack with all your awesome Int bonuses to everything.

[sirpercival]

while i personally think this is hilarious, i do not currently own a large enough tower shield that could protect my head from the mountain of books that would fall upon it if i attempted this.

Lol. What's the difference between that method and a multipouncer, or a rogue that goes invisible to get sneak attack? It's the same thing, figuring out an effective combat strategy and a way to make it work as often as possible.

Especially because becoming immune to daze is not that hard... the only problem with it is that you need an aptitude weapon, which is in ToB. :/

[kulosle]

i'm definitely going to try this build. and the difference is that the stunned character can't do anything as oppose to being able to kill the invisible rogues party members.

a sad comment is that i have enough info collected in front of me to make a handbook on it (i actually might try that) but lack the ability to make a build.

[Vowtz]

Jade Phoenix Bard

Human bard 1[PH]/warblade 2[ToB]/ bard+3/Jade Phoenix Mage 4[ToB]/Sublime Chord 2[CArc]/JPM+4/Abjurant champion 2[CM]/JPM+2

BAB: +18
Sorc/wiz spells: 9th
blade magic: 8th


Bard 1 -> skills
warblade 2 -> bab, maneuvers
bard+3 -> skills, magic
Jade Phoenix Mage 4 -> bab, maneuvers, magic
Sublime Chord 2 -> magic
JPM+6-> bab, maeuvers, magic
Abjurant Champion 2 -> bab, magic

Suggested Feats(for versatility purposes):

H - Able Learner[RoD]: Skills
1 - Improved Initiative
3 - Martial Study(Shadow Jaunt)[ToB]: will give you great mobility
6 - Touch of Healing[CC]: free healing for all your party
9 - Combat Casting: required for abjurant champ
12 -Arcane Strike[CW]: To help your fighting
15 - Summon Elemental[CM]: Utility Purposes
18 - Slot Free


You can buff your friends(and yourself), have a lot of skill points in the beginning, have combat maneuvers to fight, Heal yourself and your friends, have bardic knowledge to help in quests and in the end is a mighty caster.


[PH] Player's handbook, [ToB] Tome of Battle, [RoD] Races of Destiny, [CW] Complete Warrior, [CC] Complete Champion, [CArc] Complete Arcane, [CM] Complete Mage

If you really want to stay out off spells, see:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026

[sirpercival]

I actually made a mage-killer for a low-level game where he would be fighting lots and lots of wizards, using invisibility & sneak attack:

Toonces, the TN Magic-Blooded Catfolk Spellthief 6

Feats: Improved Initiative, EWP: Xendrik Boomerang, Neraph Throw, Trickery Devotion, Boomerang Daze (some retrained)

Basically, using Neraph Throw and Boomerang Daze he would steal spells from the wizards and use them to power Swift Invisibility (so they would still be flat-footed). The first spells he would try to steal would be See Invisibility and the like.

EDIT: But this was before I discovered Factotum. The build above is far superior. (Also I love how people keep posting spellcasting & initiator builds...)

[sirpercival]

Just had a thought -- another worthy dip could be Totemist or Incarnate, especially if you're an Azurin, since you could pick different soulmelds each day and get a variety of different skill bonuses and random effects.

[Morph Bark]

Tome of Battle works well here. Take decent dex, play a lightly armored Warblade that uses lots of Diamond Mind and White Raven. Both have places where skill checks are relevant, so pump those up.

A player of mine has played a Dex-based Warblade twice now. Both were Catfolk.

On the second, he took a level in Swordsage to get access to Shadow Hand (including Shadow Jaunt) and took Shadow Blade for a feat to gain Dex to damage. Combined with Assassin's Stance for +2d6 Sneak Attack and Iaijutsu Focus, she was formidable.

[Human Paragon 3]

You forgot Ride.

Being mounted gives you considerable advantages, including the ability to take cover behind your mount, negate damage to the mount with a ride check, get incredible increased mobility, etc. Ride is probably the best combat skill available, next to UMD.

[Curious]

I think Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4760170) is perfect for this.

[kulosle]

oh your right i did forget ride. i'll edit that in. thanks

Haberdash is great. wow this is very much the feel i'm looking for. i like the idea of a one level dip in master of masks. that's a lot of versatility i could utilize. one question though, i was always under the impression that the trickster classes were a trap, are they?

and looks like i will finally have to learn that weird soul melds subsystem. i have the book but i've been avoiding it.

question: when a chameleon switches his aptitude, say from arcane to divine, does he gain all his spells back?

[sirpercival]

So, I'm now of the opinion that the Boomerang Daze trick doesn't work. You lose flat-footed status after your first turn in initiative, even if you can't take an action. That means you need other methods to get people flat-footed after the first round.

The absolute best way to do this is Sapphire Nightmare Blade, and that's excellent because it's also based on a skill check (Concentration). However, it's ToB, so if you want to stay away from that you're probably stuck with Giantbane and Reduce Person, which is pretty inefficient. You can use Acrobatic Backstab once per encounter (twice if you go for Uncanny Trickster), but that's it.

EDIT: Incarnum is a great system and very worth the read.

[kulosle]

invisible blade lets you feint as a free action, only once per round if you gm enforces the errata. but even if it is just one per round that's enough to make the target stay dazed, assuming they fail the save.

[sirpercival]

No, feinting denies your opponent their Dex bonus, but does NOT make the flat-footed. They can still make AoOs, for example.

You have to specifically make them flatfooted. You can make them make Balance checks (if they have <5 ranks) with Grease or marbles, or you can do one of the other things I said.

[kulosle]

thanks i forgot about that. thanks for the reminder

i like the idea of death attack but it seems very underwhelming. any way of getting it easy and making it better? isn't there a greater death attack out there some where?

[sirpercival]

Meh, don't bother. Fort is the highest save at high levels; go for damage and status effects later.

Honestly, though Boomerang Daze won't get you flat-footed opponents, it WILL prevent actions and break the action economy, so it might be worth it anyway.

[kulosle]

doesn't the stun have a fort save?

so it seems that this characters main job would be to break the action economy in a big way. that sounds good to me. and out of combat he can do any thing you want him to do.

i hear there are some fun ways to (ab)use improvisation. how can i do that?

[sirpercival]

Yes, it has a Fort save, DC = 10 + damage dealt, so since you're optimizing damage it should be pretty high. Death attack is much lower DC.

And, breaking the action economy is fun, and factoti do it before breakfast, just for kicks. Like,

1) Win initiative. All your opponents are flatfooted.
2) Spend inspiration on enough extra standard actions that you can hit (and daze) every opponent.
3) ???
4) Profit!

I'll get back to you on Improvisation.

[kulosle]

another question

craft poison making and intimidate are both nice in early levels but die out rather quickly. is there any way to make them effective longer like letting them work against thinks that would normally be immune to them, or upping the dc a lot early and for cheap?

[sirpercival]

There's lots you can do with Intimidate -- check out the Fear Handbook, cached here (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qSC3gMHQuuIJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D3809.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us).

As for poisons... I have no idea. I've never really used them. Sorry :/

[Midnight_v]

There's lots you can do with Intimidate -- check out the Fear Handbook, cached here (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qSC3gMHQuuIJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D3809.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us).

As for poisons... I have no idea. I've never really used them. Sorry :/

Funny I looked at the first page and ctrl: F for intimtidate, nothing.
I then turn here to say what sir percival just said.
+1

[Morph Bark]

Better yet: Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885).

[kulosle]

wow your right i totally forgot intimidate in the op. i'll fix that. so what exactly are the penalties for no longer meeting the prerequisites of a Prc you own. say i have my chameleon feat so that i don't have to actually take mobility for dervish. i then later lose the feat for something far better. would i lose anything from dervish

also what magic items would the skilled combatant need and what spells are preferred?