Building a house?

[Mulletmanalive]

Are there rules, anywhere, i don't mind how obscurely 3pp it is, for building normal and fortified buildings and the amount of progress you can make in given times building walls?

All help appreciated...

[docnessuno]

Stronghold's builder guidebook
Wotc, 3.0

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Stronghold_Builders_Guidebook_coverthumb.jpg

[sirpercival]

The Stronghold Builder's Guide?

Edit: Damn ninjas.

[docnessuno]

The Stronghold Builder's Guide?

Edit: Damn ninjas.

You'r slow bro, i even had time to fetch a picture!

J/K :smallbiggrin:

[The Boz]

Any 3.5 or PF source, or should I adapt this one?

[Mulletmanalive]

Goes off to find a copy of said tome...

[Mulletmanalive]

Hmmm...

A quick read-through has no guidelines for the use of skills. Any books that have the DCs for building walls and stuff?

[docnessuno]

I think basic masonry works are assumed to be auto-success, with the workers taking 10.

[Mulletmanalive]

I'm basically trying to come up wit some guidlines on how long it takes to throw up a defence, pallisade or small building for a campaign i'm planning.

Stronghold Builder's seems annoyingly unhelpful on the subject. Any other options? One with actual skill uses would be handy as then you can do it faster if you're good enough...

[Zonugal]

How long do the Amish take to raise a barn/home?

[Diefje]

Mason falls under Profession and not Craft. I'd just eyeball it.

Say, trained mason (any ranks in Profession(Mason)) can make two 5x5ft wall in a day, and double with with an unskilled helper who hauls stuff around. Untrained is just one 5x5. Plus 5x5 at DC 20 and every +5 higher than that. Special features halve the progress. MW tools give +2 on the check as usual, and raw materials are required.

I'm kind of riffing it. No idea how fast actual walls get built.

[Strormer]

Mostly it will depend on what you're building. Less than a day's work can build a simple fortification such as a log fence with guards posted. More so if you make the fortifications more sturdy. If you need something fast and somewhat effective given the time period DND is based on, sharpen logs and place them in the ground like a traditional barricade. It won't last a siege, but it'll slow down enemies, which is what counts if time is scarce enough to worry how long fortifications take to put up. If you've got the time either use masonry, several days work depending on the size of the intended result, or retreat to a more readily fortifiable position such as an existing fort or natural barrier like caves. Take resources into account and then use triage to determine what you can accomplish and what you need to win, or at least survive.
Could you offer a bit more context for this situation?

[Gotterdammerung]

Do they have access to gnomish power tools and heavy equipment (cranes, bulldozers, etc)?

[JaronK]

Lyre of Building, straight out of core, lets you build SBG stuff extremely fast. Best done by something that doesn't need to sleep (Warforged, undead, whatever) and that can make the necessary perform check... just have it craft all day. One day really should be enough to build most basic structures.

JaronK

[umbergod]

Lyre of Building, straight out of core, lets you build SBG stuff extremely fast. Best done by something that doesn't need to sleep (Warforged, undead, whatever) and that can make the necessary perform check... just have it craft all day. One day really should be enough to build most basic structures.

JaronK

I prefer the fabricate route :3 Had a DM underestimate the power of that spell, until I made an entire pirate ship out of raw materials (it was a pirate themed campaign and I didn't like the 1st mate of the primary ship)

upon looking at said Lyre, I would say thats much better than a single wizard using fabricate

[CactusAir]

Is the "living in a flying box" thread still around?

[Calmar]

How long do the Amish take to raise a barn/home?

They never post it on the internet. :smallfrown:


I'm basically trying to come up wit some guidlines on how long it takes to throw up a defence, pallisade or small building for a campaign i'm planning.

Stronghold Builder's seems annoyingly unhelpful on the subject. Any other options? One with actual skill uses would be handy as then you can do it faster if you're good enough...

Depends upon the strewngth of the work force, I guess. The castle Guédelon (http://www.guedelon.fr/en/) they are currently building in France is estimated to be finished after some quarter of a century. The Lionheart put up Château Gaillard in about two years, if I'm not mistaken.

I think the Roman legions were able to build fortified camps with üalisades within one day.

[deuxhero]

Craft checks. Homes have a price and walls do with a bit of math (at least one building in core has a variant that only changes the presence of walls), workers can all work to Aid Another and furnishing can be built separately.

[vitkiraven]

What is the circumstance? Are you trying to make a fortification quickly, or just a measurement of time to have something made for an npc or player? I'd chime in on deux's post to remember that for every 5 people assisting a master stone mason, one can increase to dc for the purpose of quick crafting.
Heck, if you are willing to drop some extra gold, just have one of the unclean (aka spellcasters) drop some wall of x or x shape spells, maybr even a druid or a sycophant of an earth god for move earth, or similar spells to have it done in an afternoon.

[Coidzor]

Craft checks. Homes have a price and walls do with a bit of math (at least one building in core has a variant that only changes the presence of walls), workers can all work to Aid Another and furnishing can be built separately.

Eh, the cost for a house is horrifically over-priced and probably isn't really the way to go anyway.

[Hirax]

Wall of stone+stone shape can build you whatever you want for free. Use invisible spell if you want windows. Once you have the structure built, you just need to install furnishings. Test any doors created with stone shape due to the failure chance.

[Valameer]

Eh, the cost for a house is horrifically over-priced and probably isn't really the way to go anyway.

A regular laborer makes a sp a day. A small, 1 bedroom house costs 1000 gp. The laborer must work for 27.39 years without a single day off to pay for his house.

Where are the rules for mortgages?

[Metahuman1]

The Stronghold Builder's Guide?

Edit: Damn ninjas. Factotums.

Fixed that for you. =)

[vitkiraven]

A regular laborer makes a sp a day. A small, 1 bedroom house costs 1000 gp. The laborer must work for 27.39 years without a single day off to pay for his house.

Where are the rules for mortgages?

But that's only one commoner, not the married couple plus 2.5 children. What, with no child labor laws, they should easily be able to pay it off in like 14 years, just in time to die, and pass it on to their children. Still better than current day Japan, from what I hear anyway...:smallbiggrin:

[Jeraa]

A regular laborer makes a sp a day. A small, 1 bedroom house costs 1000 gp. The laborer must work for 27.39 years without a single day off to pay for his house.

Where are the rules for mortgages?

An untrained laborer(anyone without at least 1 rank in a profession or craft) makes a silver a day. With even 1 rank, they make an average of 5.5 gold pieces a week (half their average result on their skill check of 11). Setting aside 1gp per week, that leaves 4.5 gp per week to spend on a house, and they earn enough for a house in a little over 4 years. And thats just with 1 rank.

With even a single skill rank, commoners earn income in gold pieces, not silver. Average commoners get 8 skill points (12 if human) at 1st level. Thats more then enough to spend a single one on a craft or profession, especially considering that multiplies their weekly income by almost 8.

[CactusAir]

But that's only one commoner, not the married couple plus 2.5 children. What, with no child labor laws, they should easily be able to pay it off in like 14 years, just in time to die, and pass it on to their children. Still better than current day Japan, from what I hear anyway...:smallbiggrin:

Bill Gates couldn't buy a house with more than 3 rooms in modern tokyo. Tokyo real estate is never bought, only inherited or acquired at tax auction*.

* I exaggerate. Slightly.

[vitkiraven]

With even a single skill rank, commoners earn income in gold pieces, not silver. Average commoners get 8 skill points (12 if human) at 1st level. Thats more then enough to spend a single one on a craft or profession, especially considering that multiplies their weekly income by almost 8.
But I thought all commoners took 4 ranks in UMD and I. Focus and if Human Handle Animal, so they could be competent adventurers...

[vitkiraven]

Tokyo real estate is never bought, only inherited or acquired at tax auction...

That's kind of what I heard from a friend that was stationed over there, something like 50 year mortgages.

[Mulletmanalive]

I'm looking for some guidelines, is all. One rule can be applied reasonably easily to basically any construction project as long as there's a formula for the work.

There's no D&D magic available, so that's out, i'm just looking for DCs so we can measure progress somewhat.

The main thing is obviously that a house as D&D describes it includes the land underneath, a completely unrealistic idea. The actual building of a house would probably take about a week in historical setting, with a trained thatcher coming in to do the roof...[and taking about 4 days under most accounts].

[Jeraa]

The DCs are already covered in the core book under Craft. The last items on the chart:

Very Simple item (wooden spoon) DC 5
Typical Item (iron pot) DC 10
High-quality item (bell) Dc 15
Complex or superior item (lock) DC 20

Building a house isn't hard. It would probably qualify as a Typical item, so DC 10. Might be a bit drafty, and the roof may leak a little. Make it a DC 15, you don't have those problems. The average person can't build them then, but the 1st level person who put 3 or 4 ranks into the appropriate skill, working with an assistant using Aid Another, can succeed when taking 10.


Mason falls under Profession and not Craft. I'd just eyeball it.

No, its under Craft:


You are trained in a craft, trade, or art, such as alchemy, armorsmithing, basketweaving, bookbinding, bowmaking, blacksmithing, calligraphy, carpentry, cobbling, gemcutting, leatherworking, locksmithing, painting, pottery, sculpting, shipmaking, stonemasonry, trapmaking, weaponsmithing, or weaving.

[The Winter King]

The SHBG says a building takes 1 week per 10000gp of its cost.

Now if we do some math thats 1428.57gp a day or about 178.57gp an hour.

a basic common room in the book is 500gp. Walls on the first floor are free if made of wood. Labor costs are 30% of the price. So do it yourself, not taking in to account terrain and other factors, its 350gp and will take around two hours to construct. Possibly less depending on climate and other factors.

[Diefje]

No, its under Craft:
I have to nitpick a bit here.

That's because some stonesculpting is part of stone masonry. But, there's already a Stone Sculpting, Stone Cutting, why would Mason be on there? Building walls isn't under Craft anywhere, again reinforced by there being no prices for raw materials or finished walls anywhere. And if Mason is a legit Craft, why aren't some other professions? A farmer "Crafts" produce out of seed, but it's a profession. A miller "Crafts" boards out of lumber, but it's a profession. Those Professions actually craft items that you could go buy in a store, but you can't really go to the Wall Mart (lol). "good day sir, I'm looking for a 10x15 section of reinforced wall with a murderhole in the middle" "but of course, I got just the thing, we'll have it delivered by tomorrow eve"

The only thing Craft has going for Mason is that you can use it untrained. You follow the mortar recipe, Put stone, put mortar. Anyone could do it. But then again, if you want to go in the woods, chop down some trees, you can't do it because lumberjack is a Profession and you don't have any ranks.

The whole system is wonky to begin with, and wether building walls is a Craft or Profession doesn't really matter, because you can't use the Craft rules anyway, since there's no specific listing for DC, price, raw materials, nothing. And Profession doesn't have rules you can follow.


EDIT: well SHBG says a normal section (5x5x1 I assume, could be 10ft high) of freestanding regular mason wall is 250gp, by Craft rules, assuming DC 10 for typical object and an average of a 20 on craft check (very skilled peon), you still do only 20gp worth in a week. Either the price is off or you're gonna need a buttload of laborers to get anything done. It takes a year and half for one to get regular wall up for a 10x10x10 room. 10000gp/week means you get a small town worth of laborers of various skill.

[Yahzi]

Are there rules, anywhere, i don't mind how obscurely 3pp it is, for building normal and fortified buildings and the amount of progress you can make in given times building walls?

All help appreciated...

Raw Materials

Raw Materials = Price / 3
Assume 1/3 of the final price of the product is in raw materials. For precious metals or other unusual raw materials, you should modify this appropriately. In general try to imagine how much the item would cost if made of dross, and use that to calculate the time and effort.
This cost includes more than just the materials delivered to the customer: there are also additional materials used in the production process, such as fluxes, washes, acids, temporary supports or molds, and wear and tear on tools.

Labor

Labor = Price – Raw Materials

The other 2/3 of the price is for labor. Note that not all laborers can produce all products. Masterwork quality items require Master level craftsmen. Complex or unusual products such as Exotic weapons require Experts. Ordinary items such as Martial weapons can be made by Journeymen. Only the simplest items can be made by Apprentices.

Time

Days = Labor / Daily Wage

To find out how long it takes to make something, divide the labor cost of the item by the daily wage of the laborer. A longsword costs 15 gold; its labor component is 10 gold; a Master smith earns 5 silver a day. So it takes him 20 days to make the weapon. A masterwork longsword costs 315 gold, so it requires 410 days for a Master smith to create it. Masterwork items are as much art as they are science.

If multiple workers cooperate on a single object, add their labor together. The final produce will have the same quality as the overseer’s skill. Most craftsmen can oversee apprentices or associates equal to their rank (1 at Journeyman, 2 at Expert, and 3 at Master). Construction crafts (Masons and Architects) can oversee 10 times as many workers; Siege Engineers follow special rules (see Siege Weapons). Although the assistants cost less, they also produce less, so the final price won’t change but the item will get done quicker.

Large objects (like castles) can have multiple groups working on them. Assume a work-group is possible for every 10,000 gp value of the object. So building a castle could have 25 work-gangs; if each gang was composed of a Master mason and 30 Journeymen workers, then it would take the 775 man workforce over 1,000 days to build the castle.


These are from Ye Olde Shoppe (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=64423); how much more obscure can you get? :smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

It takes 10 minutes to build a defense!

'Nature's Rampart' spell... ;) ;)

[Yahzi]

It takes 10 minutes to build a defense!

'Nature's Rampart' spell... ;) ;)
Or 30 minutes... with a Lyre of Building. :smallbiggrin:

[Mulletmanalive]

The only thing Craft has going for Mason is that you can use it untrained. You follow the mortar recipe, Put stone, put mortar. Anyone could do it. But then again, if you want to go in the woods, chop down some trees, you can't do it because lumberjack is a Profession and you don't have any ranks.


Actually, felling the trees isn't an issue as there's the sunder rules and you can wield an axe untrained to get the auto-hit [if not crit] from a Coup de Grace attack each round. The issue is getting anything more useful than firewood out of it and that's probably worth a rank in a skill, having tried and failed to do so :smallbiggrin:

[hex0]

I'd also suggest using Stone Shape. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhVeRkAxg8I)

Or any similar spell.

Edit: I'm pretty sure the Amish are Experts that take Skill Focus in various Craft and Profession skills as their feats. If you can find out how much GP = $ I could tell you how accurate the SHB guide is because about 10 Amish built my dads Garage/Taxidermy shop in about 8 hours (when I left for school in the morning it was just the foundation and when I came back it was done.) :smalltongue: