Gestalt Gish or Theurge, What Would You Do?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Having never played a gish, but seeing builds and advice for them on the boards here, if you could play a Gestalt Gish, ignoring the 1 PrC at a time and banning Gish/Theurge rule, how would you build it?

I figured it would be similar to the regular build but the Gish parts would be on one side, and a regular caster build be on the other. Something like Fighter 5/Abjurant Champian 5/Gish PrC 10//Wizard 2/Master Specialist 3/Wizard PrC 10/Other Wizard PrC 5.

No doubt those who have played gishes could do better. So how would you build a Gestalt Gish? How would you build a Gestalt Theurge? Or any other combo classes in Gestalt.

[Curious]

Magus 20// Warblade 20 or Magus 20// Factotum 20. Excellent out of the box, no multiclassing needed. Probably still tier 3.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Magus 20// Warblade 20 or Magus 20// Factotum 20. Excellent out of the box, no multiclassing needed. Probably still tier 3.

Magus is Pathfinder right? I've never looked at Pathfinder.

[Metahuman1]

Duskblade 13/ Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/ Exotic Weapons master 1 (Double Str to damage.)/ Feat Rogue 2/ Warblade 2/ Swordsage 1//Wizard 10/Red Wizard 10.

All the neat tricks of the Wizard with all the Melee power of Full attack arcane channeling, martial Maneuvers, Pounce, and a whole lot of extra touch spells to channel.

[Curious]

Magus is Pathfinder right? I've never looked at Pathfinder.

I recommend you do. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus)

Alternately, you could be a Magus 6/ Warblade 14// (Sage) Sorceror 20 for much more combat power and much better spellcasting. Sage bloodline changes the Sorcerors casting stat to Int, so there is tons of synergy there.

[Tyndmyr]

Wizard 5/Ultimate Magus(prog sorc) 10/Wiz PrC5//Marshal 1/Sorc 6/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 10/Sorc 2

19/20 BaB if lined up right, silly save boosting, four forms of arcane casting, two of which get solid nines, sorc is mainly used to feed free metamagics to the wizard casting.

[Amphetryon]

Dread Necromancer 8/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10//Binder 5/Anima Mage 10/Dread Witch 5.

That's off-the-cuff, so the prerequisites may be out of whack.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Wizard 5/Ultimate Magus(prog sorc) 10/Wiz PrC5//Marshal 1/Sorc 6/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 10/Sorc 2

19/20 BaB if lined up right, silly save boosting, four forms of arcane casting, two of which get solid nines, sorc is mainly used to feed free metamagics to the wizard casting.

Not so much a Gish as an extreme Arcane Theurge. But thats is pretty awesome. I'll expand the OP to include Theurges too.

[Andreaz]

Paladin//Oracle for ultimate sorcadin silliness in full armor.
My current character is a gestalt gish type, beguiler/rainbow servant/abjurant champion//aegis

The former is a good build on its own right, if lacking on bab, and the latter is a full bab iron man + venom kit of defenses and tricks.

[Tyndmyr]

Not so much a Gish as an extreme Arcane Theurge. But thats is pretty awesome. I'll expand the OP to include Theurges too.

Oh, it's a gish too. See, if you start with a full bab on one side, a half bab on the other, and then use half on both....you get Bab on EVERY level.

So, awesome BaB. If that isn't quite gishy enough, your Wiz PrC 5 could be Abjurant Champion, for awesome buffs and things. Honestly, though, solid BaB is all you really need. Giant piles of spell slots and the ability to mitigate metamagic can make you a combat monster.

[Andreaz]

Oh, it's a gish too. See, if you start with a full bab on one side, a half bab on the other, and then use half on both....you get Bab on EVERY level.


That's a very shady interpretation, I don't know anyone who would accept it instead of fractional progressions.

[Tyndmyr]

That's a very shady interpretation, I don't know anyone who would accept it instead of fractional progressions.

Strictly speaking, fractional BaB is a variant system. Non fractional is standard. Gestalt strictly goes on a level by level basis, taking the best of each on each level.

[Curious]

Strictly speaking, fractional BaB is a variant system. Non fractional is standard. Gestalt strictly goes on a level by level basis, taking the best of each on each level.

I think the problem is that it seems much more like an abuse of the rules, even if it technically works. I wouldn't allow it, personally, but that's because I assume fractional BAB is standard in my games.

[Andreaz]

Strictly speaking, fractional BaB is a variant system. Non fractional is standard. Gestalt strictly goes on a level by level basis, taking the best of each on each level.

"Choose the better progression from the two classes"
If both classes give you only half bab, you only get half bab.
But I won't discuss this here, there's thousands of locked or abandoned threads on this very matter.
So I only put this warning: Don't expect to pull that off easily. It's shady.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Tyndmyr is right. Gestalt is a level by level basis lining up the BAB and save entry of each class and seeing which is better and take the better. By RAW, he's correct. But, imho, its also extremly cheesy.

[Ducklord]

Warblade 5/Abjurant champion2/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 3 //
Wizard 5/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/sorcerer4

Full Wizard and Sorcerer casting, full BaB and Swiftblade + AC goodies.

[Tyndmyr]

"Choose the better progression from the two classes"
If both classes give you only half bab, you only get half bab.
But I won't discuss this here, there's thousands of locked or abandoned threads on this very matter.
So I only put this warning: Don't expect to pull that off easily. It's shady.

The example in the actual rules is a level to level comparison.

Note that default rules do also restrict you to a PrC on one side, so normally, you'd have to be more creative with shuffling all your PrCs to one side. A similar build is still possible, mind you, but it's a bit more busy work in default gestalt.

I don't disagree with it being labeled cheesy, though. Order of things taken ends up being very important in gestalt, and you'll want to look at the order of levels in complex builds very carefully before declaring it complete. It's quite easy to have two builds with all of the same levels in them and a notably different outcome, especially in saves.

[FearlessGnome]

Having played a Sorcerer//Druid for 4 sessions so far, I can only recommend it. I'm at level 5 and keeping full casting for the foreseeable future, but the Druid side side could easily go off and do Druid 5/Shifter10/Master of Many Forms5 or some such, if you want a more gishy feel.

What beats a bear summoning bears? A Gargantuan Anything spamming sorcerer spells, that's what! :smallbiggrin:

Also, consider taking Warblade1 at level 9, just so you can get Ironheart Surge. I know I'm going to. Antimagic fields are not the Druid's friend.

...For that matter, a druid20//Warblade20 would be mean on its own.

[sirpercival]

I have a theurge gish that I put together for a game with almost these exact same specs:

LN Axani Wizard 5/Abj Champ 5/Dweomerkeeper 2/JPM 8 // Crusader 1/Cleric 4/RKV 7/Dweomerkeeper +2

+20 BAB, 18th-level wizard casting, 17th-level cleric casting, IL 14 (+1 LA was bought off).

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I'm assuming a 3.P environment.

Swashbuckler 3/Elf Paragon 3//Sage Sorcerer 6, then rotating Bladesinger, Swiftblade, and Rogue such that caster levels are neither lost nor wasted. Telling Blow and Improved Critical are musts after prerequisites are satisfied.

Another good one is Paladin//Shugenja. Maybe not a proper Gish because it uses divine magic, but the Shugenja list is pretty varied, especially with Domain farming. Divine Oracle 2 and Contemplative 6 are must-haves.

Paladin/Swiftblade/Sublime Chord//Bard. Medium armor and you can get 9th if you're willing to lose some BAB.

[Kaje]

I have a couple gestalt gishes I've cooked up. The first one uses your house rules, but the second uses standard gestalt rules. I'm not sure what I'd swap those later sorcerer levels out for.

Dwarf Rogue 1 / Monk 1 / Duskblade 13 / Warblade 1 / Bloodstorm Blade 4 // Wizard 5 / Runesmith 1 / Enlightened Fist 7 / Spellwarp Sniper 5 / Wizard 2

This baby casts ninths in full plate with no asf, has +19 fractional BAB, and can channel touch, ray, and area spells through melee or thrown attacks. Stab your enemy with a fireball, no save.



Human Necropolitan Hexblade 5 / Binder 3 / Fighter 2 / Battle Dancer 1 / Paladin of Slaughter 2 / Blackguard 3 / Arcane Duelist 2 / Warblade 2 // Feat Rogue 2 / Sorcerer 3 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Mindbender 1 / Spelldancer 1 / Incantatrix 1 / Sorcerer 5 / Fatespinner 2

A ninth level spell, 19 BAB, CHA to AC twice, CHA to saves twice (thrice against spells), all the free persisted buffs (Shield, Wraithstrike, Mage Armor, Bladeweave, Eagle's Splendor, Haste, and more) I could ask for via Spelldancer/Necropolitan, telepathy and mindsight, mettle and evasion. Uses the hexblade curse, dark companion, blackguard aura, and Focalor's aura to debuff enemies in melee, so his caster allies can chuck save-or-sucks at the area. Uses Control Undead to power Travel Devotion. Extremely feat heavy, it took two flaws and all the bonus feats I could get to do everything I wanted.

[CactusAir]

Diviner5/Incantatrix10/Archmage5//Factotum20.

Or Diviner20//Factotum11/Warblade7/Chameleon2 if you're using pathfinder diviner. Pathfinder Diviner wins initiative like nothing else.

[Little Brother]

Wu Jen7/JPM 10/Mindbender 1/(other full progression caster)1/Warblade1//Crusader 7/Ur Priest 2/Ruby Knight Windicator 10/Swordasge 1

Why yes I do like triple 9s. Especially if you pick up the Spite domain. Pact of Return with Transcend Mortality AND The immolation? Delicious.

[Randomguy]

Favoured soul 4/paladin 2/ (variable 10)/sacred exorcist 1/dweomkeeper 3//
sorcerer 3/dweomkeeper7/incantrix 10.

The variable can be filled with 2 more levels of paladin for more turn undead, a level of cleric for more turn undead, a level of monk for cha to AC, levels of geomancer if you want to DMM your arcane spells and if you're evil (via paladin of tyranny) two levels hexblade and two of blackguard for some more cha to saves.

The build focuses on persistant buffs. You also get -2 adjustment (minimum 1) to ALL metamagic spells, so normal persistant spell is more doable, and you can save DMM persist for higher level spells. You can cast a few spells each day as supernatural abilities, so they can't be dispelled, which goes great with persistent spell.

Good spells to persist: Divine power, girallon's blessing (so you can quad wield keen kukris with a ton of activate on critical enhancements and crit all the time or just add a ton of strength to a single 2 handed weapon.), ghostform (cha to AC, can barely be hit by anything), ironguard (combined with ghostform you can be hit by even less things), lightning ring (two lighning bolts a round as free actions and do tons of damage to anyone that gets close to you), shapechange (If you want to be cheesy), dragons breath after adding some metamagic feats (combine that with lightning ring and you never need to cast a blasting spell), ruin delvers fortune (cha to ac as a luck bonus) and so on.

Of course, the downside to persistant lightning ring is that it cuts just about any bed you sleep on in half.

[Lateral]

I'm assuming a 3.P environment.

Why? The OP said that he doesn't know or use Pathfinder.

I'd recommend Factotum 8/Swiftblade 10/Jade Phoenix Mage 2//Wizard (or Wu Jen) 8//Mindbender 1/Crusader 2/Abjurant Champion 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/Abjurant Champion 3. You have full Wizard or Wu Jencasting (since the levels are staggered to fill the gaps in the JPM and Swiftblade's non casting levels; pick Wizard or Wu Jen at your option; Wizard is more powerful but Wu Jen is less of a game-breaker and has some nice gish spells besides), a crusader IL of 14.5 (and therefore 7th level maneuvers) plus JPM abilities, Cunning Surge and Swiftblade 10 abilities (giving you a massive haul of extra actions), Abjurant Champion abilities except for the 5th level, which you don't even need, Telepathy 100' which, with Mindsight, gives you a way to see anything with a mind within 100 feet, and +18 BAB. Pretty sweet. (Someone tell me if I screwed up the staggering in any way.)

You may also want to consider being an Illumian with the Naenhoon sigil and trading out at least one level of the above for a dip in Sacred Exorcist. That way, if you take Persistent Spell, you basically have an arcane DMM: Persist usable on two spells a day. You'll need 12 Turn Undead attempts; to get this, you can switch to a Charisma-based class (I used INT-based classes because they're better and synergize with the Factotum levels; the CHA-based route is less powerful, but will have a high enough CHA that only one nightstick is required), or just get a couple of Nightsticks and a Holy Reliquary Symbol. You're only persisting two spells a day, so you can get away with a 12 charisma and two nightsticks. If you do this route, I suggest Wizard unless your DM rules that nightsticks don't stack, then Sorcerer; what with needing Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, a few Fonts of Inspiration, and several prerequisite feats, you won't have room for Extra Turnings.

[kardar233]

Gish-wise, here's my favourite. It requires a bit of Dragon material: Eldritch Claws from #358, and Beast Strike from #355 is an optional extra.

Elan or Synad
Warlock6/Cloistered Cleric1/Prestige Paladin of Freedom2/Hellfire Warlock3/Legacy Champion8//Bard4/Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian1/Warblade14 with one floating level on the Bard side.

Feats for class requirements: Mounted Combat, Least Legacy
Feats integral to build: Song of the White Raven, Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, Eldritch Claws, Improved Rapidstrike
Nice feats to have: Words of Creation, Superior Unarmed Strike, Beast Strike, Song of the Heart, Melodic Casting, Draconic Heritage (Battle Dragon), Battle Blessing

Nice items to have: Masterwork Natural Horn, Badge of Courage, Vest of Legends, and that one Eldritch Blast item I can never remember.

See if you can convince your DM to adapt Harmonious Knight sub-levels for Prestige Paladin for extra IC.

Last I checked you're hitting 4 times for ~42d6 and 4 for ~44d6. Plus you have pretty good Warlock casting and low-level Cleric and Bard casting.

It's quite playable at low levels too, if you drop all your wealth/feats into IC optimization after getting Eldritch Claws as you'll still be doing ~9d6 damage at 5th level, and you can Wolf Fang Strike or Pounce for multiple attacks.

I wrote this for a no-dual-progression campaign, so you might do better by fitting in dual-progression classes but frankly I can't be bothered.

~EDIT~ Oh yeah, I forgot, this build is pretty much SAD to Charisma, though it doesn't hurt to get some Str or Int.

[hex0]

Duskblade 6/Warmage 6
Duskblade 7/Rainbow Servant 7
Wizard 1/Rainbow Servant 1
Abjurant Champion (Wizard) 2/Rainbow Servant 2
Abjurant Champion (Warmage) 3/Ultimate Magus (Duskblade/Wizard) 3
Ultimate Magus (Duskblade/Wizard) 1/Spellsword 1 (Warmage)

Channel everything. :smallbiggrin:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Martial Wizard 1// Mystic Ranger 1, Dodge, Track, Carmendine Monk; Abrupt Jaunt
2. Martial Wizard 2// Mystic Ranger 2, Power Attack (strong-arm style)
3. Martial Wizard 3// Mystic Ranger 3, Endurance, Extend Spell
4. Martial Wizard 4// Mystic Ranger 4, (Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole)
5. Martial Wizard 5// Warblade 1, Mobility
6. Swiftblade 1// Incantatrix 1, Persistent Spell, Spring Attack, Arcane Strike
7. Swiftblade 2// Invisible Eye Monk 1, Combat Reflexes
8. Swiftblade 3// Invisible Eye Monk 2, Lightning Reflexes
9. Swiftblade 4// Incantatrix 2, Minor Shapeshift
10. Swiftblade 5// Warblade 2
11. Swiftblade 6// Warblade 3
12. Swiftblade 7// Incantatrix 3, Bounding Assault, Elusive Target
13. Swiftblade 8// Warblade 4
14. Swiftblade 9// Warblade 5, Ironheart Aura
15. Abjurant Champion 1// Swiftblade 10, Defensive Sweep
16. Abjurant Champion 2// Warblade 6
17. Abjurant Champion 3// Warblade 7
18. Abjurant Champion 4// Warblade 8, Arcane Disciple: Destiny domain
19. Abjurant Champion 5// Warblade 9, Improved Initiative
20. Warblade 10// Incantatrix 4, Invisible Spell

Mystic Ranger is there to get Swift Haste, which can be made Persistent via Incantatrix, thus enabling all-day Swiftblade benefits, plus he can put Rhino's Rush in all his 1st level slots. Between Int to AC via Carmendine Monk, Greater Luminous Armor + Persistent Shield with Abjurant Champion 5, Persistent buffs, and Minor Shapeshift, nothing should pose much of a threat to him. With 8th level Warblade maneuvers/stances, Persistent Draconic Polymorph, Bite of the Werebear, Choose Destiny, and other buffs, and Power Attack + Arcane Strike + Wraithstrike for offensive power, plus being able to use a standard-action crowd control or strike with a full attack, and using White Raven Tactics on himself to get two rounds worth of actions every turn... This character is definitely capable of handling nearly anything all by himself.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Why? The OP said that he doesn't know or use Pathfinder.

Because Hooked on Phonics apparently didn't work for me. In my defense, it is all up on the web.

[hex0]

Druid 5/Duskblade 5
Arcane Hierophant 1/Wizard 1
Arcane Hierophant 8/Duskblade 8
Arcane Hierophant 1/Abjurant Champion 1
Mystic Theurge 1/Prestige Ranger 1
Ultimate Magus 1/Prestige Ranger 1
Mystic Theurge 1/Prestige Ranger 1
Ultimate Magus 1/Prestige Ranger 1
Mystic Theurge 1/Prestige Ranger 1

15th level wildshape, 20th level Druid casting, 15th level Wizard casting, 16th level Duskblade casting, 20th level animal companion (which also has familiar abilities), Full-attack channeling, Full BAB...

If you don't want to be as gishy, you could play a very strong summoner:

Focused Specialist UA Variant Conjurer 3/Spellthief 3
Master Specialist 2/Spellthief 2
Master Specialist 8/Demonologist 8
Nar Demonbinder 1/Demonologist 1
Nar Demonbinder 6/Ultimate Magus 6

Ridiculous caster level that I don't even want to calculate (and your summons have bonus HP equal to said ridiculous caster level!). Swift action summon a Bebilith or Hezrou by casting Summon Monster V at level 14. Need I continue? :smallbiggrin: If you don't have access to BOVD or you can't play an evil PC, swap Demonologist for Malconvoker.

[JaronK]

I'd probably do some sort of Binder/Sorcerer/Anima Mage thing on one side, with Crusader on the other side. That would allow for maximum utility and let you use Persistant buffs to really rock out.

JaronK