need help with Bow damage and feats :D

[Drinzor]

hey guys, I need help with my ranger idea,...

I wanted to make a ranger there focus on ranged damage, right now I don't need ideas on how to get pass the Wind wall and so on, right now my main focus is damage, what items, and what feats, I am starting at level 5.

and my biggest problem is with the migthy bow needing str to give more damage, is there a way to use dex or something like that instead of.

[CactusAir]

Investing in STR as a ranger ranger is a losing game. Returns aren't worth the cost. get bonus damage from class features or spells or items.

Swift Hunter is a good idea.

A Cleric Buddy with Righteous Wrath of the Faithful active is better.

[Waker]

If your DM allows the Dragon Compendium or Dragon Magazine, there is the feat Dead Eye, which adds Dex to damage against targets within 30ft.

[Optimator]

Magic items are a good, if unreliable, way to boost damage. Things like collision, elemental damage, and holy/unholy are decent.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a

Also read the archery handbook, ranger handbook, swift hunter handbook, and then weep when you read the quickstart cleric archer and cleric handbook.

[agentnone]

What about the Greater Bracers of Archery? They give both bonus to hit and damage. +1 to hit, +2 to damage IIRC. Granted, they're a small, poor substitute at much higher levels. Could always get a composite (strength) bow then put on Belt of Giant Strength or get buffed with Bull Strength. I also remember reading somewhere that you can take a feat similar to Power Attack with ranged weapons. Just a few things I can think of at 1:30 am. lol

[Darrin]

Boosting ranged damage via magic items:

Lesser Crystal of Acid Assault (3000 GP, MIC p. 64). Cheapest way to add +1d6 acid damage to your ranged attacks without spending a lot of gold.

Bracers of Lightning (11000 GP, MIC p. 206). Adds the shock property to all your attacks, including ranged. Although somewhat expensive, in most cases it may be cheaper to buy these bracers than trying to add another +1 property to an existing magic weapon. The biggest drawback is it takes a swift action to activate, which may cut into your action economy.

Quiver of Energy (15000 GP, MIC p. 172). Adds +1d6 a la carte energy damage to 20 arrows.

Enhancements to put on your bow:

Shock/Frost/etc. (+1 enhancement, DMG). Acid can be added via augment crystal, and fire/cold/sonic damage can be added via spells. However, frost weapon's duration stinks (1 round/CL), and Bracers of Lightning is expensive and burns up your swift action for the round. So consider adding cold/electricity to the bow itself. If you have all the basic energy types covered already, consider adding Psychokinetic for +1d4 force damage. Don't bother adding the various Burst enhancements, the crit range on arrows is abysmal.

Precise Shot (+1 enhancement, MIC p. 40). No need to take Precise Shot as a feat.

Horizon Goggles (8000 GP, Complete Mage p. 133) or Helm of the Hunter (9000 GP, MIC p. 194). Provides the Far Shot feat.

Splitting (+3 enhancement, Champions of Ruin p. 42). I can haz moar arrowz. The holy grail of archery enhancements.

Spellstoring Arrow +1 (166 GP each, DMG). With multiple attacks, allows you to cast multiple spells in a round. Works best with touch spells, but otherwise a swiss-army-knife of awesomeness if your DM isn't too picky about the spell requirements (i.e., if he allows "targeted spell" to include rays, some area effects, etc.).

Pitspawned template (+1000 GP, DMGII). +2 untyped bonus to confirm criticals. It won't happen often, but 1K for a +2 isn't a bad deal.

Boosting damage via spells:

Consider putting in a Wand Chamber (100 GP, Dungeonscape) for activating swift/immediate action wands.

Instant of Power (Forge of War, Brd/Dru/Rgr 1). The gold standard for wand chambers. Immediate action to add a +4 enhancement bonus on your next attack, save, or damage roll. Actually, can be used on an ally's roll, too, if you didn't get a chance to hit that round.

Lesser Energy Surge (PHBII, Sor/Wiz 2). Swift action to add +1d6 a la carte energy damage to all your attacks for 1 round. Doesn't specify melee, so it works for bows.

Some not-so-swift spells for boosting damage:

Burning Sword (Spell Compendium p. 41, Sor/Wis 2). Flaming burst weapon 1 min/level.

Frost Weapon (Frostburn p. 95, Clr/Dru/Sor/Wiz 2). +1d6 frost damage 1 round/level.

Sonic Weapon (Spell Compendium p. 195, Brd/Sor/Wiz 2). +1d6 sonic damage 1 min/level.

[Curmudgeon]

The Wind Wall obstacle is hard to overcome.
(A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected.) From the description of siege engines (page 100 of Dungeon Master's Guide):
Ballista: A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place. If you can get a projectile that's a Huge heavy crossbow bolt, or something your DM agrees is of at least equal size, you're set.

A Large size Ranger with Powerful Build could wield a Huge heavy crossbow. Add quick loading (Magic Item Compendium, pages 41-42) to automatically put a new bolt in place (+1 enhancement cost), on a self-loading crossbow base (Arms and Equipment Guide, page 116) to automatically draw back the string (+10,000 gp cost just for that enhancement) and you'll be able to make full iterative attacks with a projectile that punches through Wind Wall. It's a substantially more expensive option (in level adjustment, equipment, and feats) than if you used a regular bow with a Medium size character, but it's the best way I know to reliably ignore Wind Wall.

[marcielle]

Is dragon Magazine allowed? Only, I heard of this thing called the Targeteer fighter from issue 310. It's suppose to be pretty good as far as fighter levels go

[Gavinfoxx]

...Or you could use the link I gave to ignore Wind Wall. Or just get a +1 Force (equivalent +3) bow. Or just get a Gauntlet of Infinite Javelins, or whatever they are called, those are made of force...

[Curmudgeon]

...Or you could use the link I gave to ignore Wind Wall.
That would be purely your house rule. Hank’s Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) says nothing about ignoring Wind Wall (only the miss chance versus incorporeal creatures), and Wind Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm) says nothing about being bypassed by force arrows (only a giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons).

[Gavinfoxx]

*Checks the Force enhancement*

...Huh. I never realized that Force didn't bypass Wind Wall....

[docnessuno]

A couple very important tips:
Energy bow (already linked), allows you to bypass any DR (wich is the bane of archery, unless you go for a ranged powerattack build)
Splitting is the BEST bow enchantment EVER.
Soulknife 2, something 3, soulbow 4 gives you Wis to damage with your soulbow, coupled with zen archery that means you are entirely Wis SAD for archery. The downside is that you are using your soulbow instead of a splitting energy bow.

[darkdragoon]

There are a couple of bows that help on avoiding the Str penalty (Dragonbone, Bow of the Winter Moon), but don't see anything that lets you substitute. Zen Archery will let you use Wis for Attack though.

There is a Ranger spell (I believe it is Hunter's Eye?) that gives you sneak attack based on CL. May want Sniper's Shot as well for long range.


Enemy Spirit Pouch (MIC)-- improves favored enemy bonus by 2 and gives you a separate +1 attack vs that type as well. Doesn't cost much.

[Dr.Epic]

There's a class in Complete Warrior that let's you deal addition d8s or d6s (I forget which) when within 30 feet of a foe.

[Urpriest]

There's a class in Complete Warrior that let's you deal addition d8s or d6s (I forget which) when within 30 feet of a foe.

Unfortunately only as a standard action, so not terribly meaningful to most builds, especially ones depending on bonus damage, especially bonus damage from items.

[Dr.Epic]

Unfortunately only as a standard action, so not terribly meaningful to most builds, especially ones depending on bonus damage, especially bonus damage from items.

In that case, you could always just go with magical gear to increase damage.

[Safety Sword]

Swift Hunter and skirmish damage is your friend. The issue is having a way to full attack with skirmish (Travel Devotion anyone?).

Or sneak attack, again with the needing to set it up though.

Straight archery is also a feat sucking hole.

[Dr.Epic]

Or sneak attack, again with the needing to set it up though.

Sneak attack with a bow is lame. You have to be within 30 ft. and sneaking up to that range you might as well use melee weapons.

[Curmudgeon]

Energy bow (already linked), allows you to bypass any DR (wich is the bane of archery, unless you go for a ranged powerattack build)
Maybe I'm missing something, but where is this stated? I don't see it there (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a).

[Gavinfoxx]

"made of pure magical force" ... "as they are force effects"

[Big Fau]

Maybe I'm missing something, but where is this stated? I don't see it there (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a).

The damage dealt by the Energy Bow is Force damage.

[Curmudgeon]

"made of pure magical force" ... "as they are force effects"
So? It's still damage coming from a weapon, against which DR normally applies. It would bypass DR/magic, of course, but not other types of DR.

[Safety Sword]

Sneak attack with a bow is lame. You have to be within 30 ft. and sneaking up to that range you might as well use melee weapons.

All depends on your campaign. Underground in dungeon corridors does tend to limit the distance of encounters and line of sight considerations become important.

[JaronK]

A dip into Targeteer variant Fighter will let you get Dex to damage instead of Str, thus replacing all need for special bows.

JaronK

[jiriku]

You want raptor arrows (MiC). You want them so hard. Raptor arrows with a splitting bow is archery heaven. If your DM is into the idea, consider taking Ancestral Relic (BoED) or Item Familiar (UA) at 3rd level, which will allow you to enchant your bow yourself. Because you pay half cost, this will allow you to have a much better bow than you would otherwise be able to afford or find. If neither of these options are available, ask your DM if you can make your bow a bonded magic item (DMG2), which, again, gives you the ability to enchant the bow yourself at half price.

[herrhauptmann]

How about a splitting energy bow? Shooting raptor arrows? (I know it's been said)
1 shot would split into two. And if that one shot was a raptor arrow, it should split again, into 4 (or 3 if you use D&D doubling rules). Next turn? The original raptor arrow returns to you, while the 2 or 3 duplicates disappear.
You lose the force effect if you use raptor arrows.


But you can bypass the DR issues with Power Shot feature of hte energy bow. Essentially, power attack for archery.
By the time you can afford that, you should be level 12 or higher. So each arrow would do 1d8+2 (it's a +2 bow)+penalty taken. Potentially 1d8+14 if you can hit reliably.

[jiriku]

Raptor arrows from the MiC do not split. Rather, they are all +1 returning bane arrows that are automatically baneful against whatever they hit.

[herrhauptmann]

Raptor arrows from the MiC do not split. Rather, they are all +1 returning bane arrows that are automatically baneful against whatever they hit.

Bugger, could've sworn they had a split function to go with the returning... Whoops. Is there another arrow that has a split function perhaps?

Considering I've mentioned it several times in the last 2 months, I'm surprised this is the first time someone's corrected me.

[Darrin]

So? It's still damage coming from a weapon, against which DR normally applies. It would bypass DR/magic, of course, but not other types of DR.

Weapon damage which gains an energy descriptor become "energy attacks", which bypass DR. Per the SRD:

"The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks"

[Curmudgeon]

Weapon damage which gains an energy descriptor become "energy attacks", which bypass DR. Per the SRD:

"The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks"
That would matter ─ if force were a D&D energy type.
energy damage

Damage caused by one of five types of energy (not counting positive and negative energy): acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic.

[Gavinfoxx]

Look at Force, MIC pg 35.

[Curmudgeon]

Look at Force, MIC pg 35.
Yes, the force weapon enhancement bypasses damage reduction. The problem is that Hank's Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) doesn't have the force property. That item is dated "12/27/2006", and Magic Item Compendium says "First Printing: March 2007". The force enhancement you're referring can't be part of Hank's Energy Bow because it didn't exist yet. And since "pure magical force" isn't an energy type, it can't bypass DR on that basis, either. The arrows created by Hank's Energy Bow will only overcome DR/magic.

[Gavinfoxx]

The thing is, damage resistance only applies to physical weapons. The arrows shot by an energy bow aren't a physical item. They are closer to a magic missile or an orb of force, to which damage resistance does NOT apply. The bow of force requires the statement because it sheathes force on physical arrows, and the energy bow doesn't because the arrows aren't made of physical matter at all. The energy bow is doing Force damage, which is a specific damage type in D&D.

[Curmudgeon]

The thing is, damage resistance only applies to physical weapons.
I can't find anything in the rules which says that. Care to provide a citation?

[Gavinfoxx]

"A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities."

What Force and Energy Bow does is it lets something which is normally a weapon use a type of energy that is normally reserved for spells, as if the weapon had cast a spell with the Force descriptor.

[Curmudgeon]

What Force and Energy Bow does is it lets something which is normally a weapon use a type of energy that is normally reserved for spells, as if the weapon had cast a spell with the Force descriptor. Again, "force" is not one of the five defined D&D energy types, and thus the normal damage reduction rules which apply to weapon attacks remain in effect. You would need an explicit exception to these normal rules in the item description for things to be otherwise.

You are free to make a house rule for your own campaign, of course, but that's all this would be.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm not saying it is an energy type, I am saying it is a magical effect and damage type that applies to spell damage... like how Magic Missile overcomes all DR except that of the Force Dragon...

[Curmudgeon]

I'm not saying it is an energy type, I am saying it is a magical effect and damage type that applies to spell damage
It's a magical effect, similar to any other magical arrow, and thus it bypasses just DR/magic.
The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Arrows from Hank's Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) do not have one of the five D&D energy types, nor are they spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. The item description doesn't say so, and the general damage reduction rules don't say anything to this effect either.

These arrows have two other special properties:

They have no miss chance against incorporeal enemies.
There's a built-in "power shot" feature, akin to Power Attack.
Anything beyond this (universal damage reduction bypass, in this case) would be a house rule that you've made up.

[Gavinfoxx]

Does Magic Missile incur DR? Alicorn Lance? Arcane Bolt? Blast of Force? Crushing Hand? Decastave? Explosive Runes? Force Claw? Force Missiles? Magic Missile? Mordenkainen's Sword? Orb of Force? Persistent Blade? Spiritual Weapon? Vortex of Teeth? Wings of Flurry? The reserve feat Force Needle? It is a 'weapon' that happens to launch something that is more like a spell, since it has the [Force] descriptor... specifically the spell Magic Missile, also the spell that enables the Force enhancements from MIC...

[Curmudgeon]

It is a 'weapon' that happens to launch something that is more like a spell, since it has the [Force] descriptor...
Again, you're making up a house rule. A weapon "that is more like a spell" isn't a category in the D&D rules. If it's a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability it's treated like a spell. If it's a weapon it's treated like a weapon. There's no third category such as you're claiming. Hank's Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) isn't a spell, and it doesn't have the [Force] descriptor.

[Gavinfoxx]

It fires arrows of "Pure magical force" that are "force effects". How much clearer can it get??

[Curmudgeon]

It fires arrows of "Pure magical force" that are "force effects". How much clearer can it get??
It's very clear. They're still weapons, not spells.

[JaronK]

They do Force damage. Force damage is a type of damage. It's not energy damage, but then again neither is Vile damage, Desecration damage, Negative Energy damage, or anything like that.

Force effects are only resisted by things that say they provide resistance to force effects. This is just like how a Red Dragon Fang Dagger (Draconomicon) does 1 point of fire damage, and that fire damage is only resisted by fire resistance (not DR).

Or do you believe DR prevents that fire damage? It is, after all, from a weapon, not a spell. It's just a weapon that does fire damage. Much like how some weapons do Force damage.

JaronK

[Gavinfoxx]

Right! Is Holy damage affected by DR from a Holy weapon? Fire damage affected from DR from a flaming weapon? Electric damage affected by dr from a Shocking weapon? What this does is change damage from piercing (affected by DR) to Force (not affected by DR).

[docnessuno]

Force IS an energy type
Reason: there are monster with force resistance

[Darrin]

That would matter ─ if force were a D&D energy type.

Aha... good catch. For some reason I was still thinking [force] was an energy descriptor, because that's how it was in 3.0. I imagine a lot of DMs still treat it that way out of habit. Most force effects are spell effects, and spell damage almost always always bypasses DR. Spiritual weapon supports your argument:

"It strikes as a spell, not as a weapon, so, for example, it can damage creatures that have damage reduction."

Which implies if it were striking as a weapon, even as a force effect DR would still apply.

[Curmudgeon]

Aha... good catch. For some reason I was still thinking [force] was an energy descriptor, because that's how it was in 3.0.
Perhaps the Magic Item Compendium authors had that in mind, which would explain why they added a DR bypass provision in the force weapon enhancement. Of course this exception is specific to the force enhancement, not previously created magic items without that enhancement.

Spiritual weapon supports your argument:

"It strikes as a spell, not as a weapon, so, for example, it can damage creatures that have damage reduction."

Which implies if it were striking as a weapon, even as a force effect DR would still apply.
Thank you! I was sure there was a description somewhere which addressed this directly, but I was drawing a blank. It's often easier to understand a direct statement like this, rather than convince people by showing the rules (DR applies to weapon attacks) and pointing out that no listed exception means the standard rules still apply.

[Darrin]

Perhaps the Magic Item Compendium authors had that in mind, which would explain why they added a DR bypass provision in the force weapon enhancement. Of course this exception is specific to the force enhancement, not previously created magic items without that enhancement.

I chalk it up to sourcebook creep and sloppy editors/designers. Yes, they've added new energy types as the game went on (hellfire, sacred, profane, postive/negative energy, dessication, frostburn, and... um... maybe whatever Searing Spell does?), but I don't think the designers ever address how they affect DR directly. Most of them show up in spell effects, which bypass DR just by being spells, so it probably never occurred to the designers to address those energy types outside of spell effects.

As far as force resistance goes... that may be a holdover from 3.0, or just sloppy designing. Amethyst Dragon (MM2), Force Dragon (ELH), and Tarterian (Draconomicon) were all from 3.0 sources. Actually, Force Resistance (Ex) on the first two doesn't affect force damage at all, it just gives a +4 bonus on saving throws. I can't find any examples of force resistance in 3.5... closest I can find is Force Golem in MMV, but unlike most creatures with a strong affinity to a particular type of energy, Force Golems are *vulnerable* to force effects (+50% damage). Again, probably just sloppy design, as this doesn't explicitly identify [force] as energy damage. A force effect can do damage, and vulnerability to it can do +50% more, without actually identifying it as energy damage.

On the gripping hand, I can't see that there's a great deal to be gained by *not* treating it as energy damage, and as a nod towards speeding up play or making the rules more intuitive, just handwaving or houseruling it as such.