DND without Divines

[cellingwood]

Hey, I'm looking for a system that works with medieval settings but doesn't have divine magic or any kind of direct interference from gods as far as gameplay goes. Maybe something like the Dragon Age gameplay? I tried messing around with Dark Heresy, but the futuristic part of it is too integral to the system.

[comicshorse]

Dark Ages Vampire ?

[Yuki Akuma]

...GURPS?

You could use GURPS.

[Mando Knight]

Sounds exactly like Dark Sun, to me. Except that you didn't ask for post-apocalyptia.

[cellingwood]

I might be able to make do with GURPS, but I'd rather not. It's a bit too simplistic for my tastes. I can't do Dark Sun because my campaign setting is the fairly basic middle ages setting, not post-apocalyptic. Thanks though.

Edit: Unless Dark Sun's gameplay lets you run campaigns in non-post-apocalyptic settings? I'm not that familiar with it.

[Mando Knight]

I might be able to make do with GURPS, but I'd rather not. It's a bit too simplistic for my tastes. I can't do Dark Sun because my campaign setting is the fairly basic middle ages setting, not post-apocalyptic. Thanks though.

Edit: Unless Dark Sun's gameplay lets you run campaigns in non-post-apocalyptic settings? I'm not that familiar with it.

Dark Sun is a setting for D&D. In it, basically, if there are gods, they sure as hell aren't doing anything about the barren wasteland people live in, either directly or through empowered agents. If you took Fallout, but then turned the culture and tech from "centuries in the 50s" to "standard fantasy except without many good sources of workable metal," you'd get the picture.

D&D 4th Edition recently released a campaign book to try to revive the setting, as the last official sourcebook related to it was released in the 2nd Edition days, as I recall.

In essence, if you want to run D&D without divine magic, then run D&D without divine magic. What that entails is simply disallowing any classes that receive divine power (i.e. the Cleric or Paladin).

[cellingwood]

In essence, if you want to run D&D without divine magic, then run D&D without divine magic. What that entails is simply disallowing any classes that receive divine power (i.e. the Cleric or Paladin).

The problem with that is that I'm worried that taking so much out of the game will cripple it. Can the system survive without divine magic? Without magical healing?

[Ravens_cry]

Divine magic could be fluffed as a different type, but still mortal based, magic. Some of its practitioners could espouse their power comes from the Great God Blankety Blank, but they are really just another kind of wizard.

[meschlum]

I'm fond of Reve: The Dream Oneiros, which is rather obscure, one must grant.

Setting-wise, everything is a dragon's dream. So while the Dragons are, technically, gods, they don't interfere with people - they just dream about them. And about places, events, and so on.

Magic works by shifting your mind to be somewhat closer to the Dragons, which tends to do - odd - things to your sanity, is very tiring, but allows you to perform some fairly impressive deeds. The more power you have as a 'dreamer', the better you can resist magic. All magic. Including helpful effects. And using magic (including magic items) always puts you at some risk of (usually temporary) insanity as the dragons have weird dreams about you.

As far as combat goes, it's fairly lethal - being hit is dangerous, healing takes a long time, and you really don't want to be outnumbered. Magical healing helps a fair bit, but still has you out of action for at least a few hours (which is better than days to weeks with risks of getting worse).


Because I appear to have a reputation, I'll state that you could pull off having no gods in a medieval setting using Fair Folk (from Exalted), but it's really too much effort for not enough return. Really.

[Ravens_cry]

I want to try the Elemental Gods mentioned way in Dragon #77. They have all the awesome majesty of having gods in a setting can being if handled right, but they take a very hands off approach, so you can have all sorts of fun with squabbles and schisms and holy wars and all that Fun®.
Fun® is Registered of Dramatic Circumstances Incorporated© and is not to be confused with something that is actually fun in-setting.

[Yuki Akuma]

I might be able to make do with GURPS, but I'd rather not. It's a bit too simplistic for my tastes.

...GURPS is simplistic?

...Okay.


The problem with that is that I'm worried that taking so much out of the game will cripple it. Can the system survive without divine magic? Without magical healing?

Bards can cast healing spells. They are arcane.

There is also absolutely nothing stopping you from adding healing spells to arcane classes (not that you need to, because there's already an arcane class that can heal).

[cellingwood]

Divine magic could be fluffed as a different type, but still mortal based, magic. Some of its practitioners could espouse their power comes from the Great God Blankety Blank, but they are really just another kind of wizard.

Sorry, but that's not what I'm looking for. I want one magic power source in a medieval era. I'll be using my own setting so the system just needs to be compatable with middle ages tech.

[cellingwood]

...GURPS is simplistic?

...Okay.

It's hard to explain, but it seems kind of threadbare, but with what is there is pretty complex. Like there is only STR, DEX, and INT, but a million things that go along with that. Does that make any sense?

[DeadManSleeping]

I am obligated to advertise the system "Strands of Fate", which allows you to customize technology level, magic sources, and magic power. It's actually really easy to force magic-using players to all use a system that's exactly as expensive/difficult or cheap/easy as you want! Check it. (http://voidstar.squarespace.com/strands-of-fate/)

[Yuki Akuma]

It's hard to explain, but it seems kind of threadbare, but with what is there is pretty complex. Like there is only STR, DEX, and INT, but a million things that go along with that. Does that make any sense?

No, that doesn't make any sense to me. But hey, whatever floats your boat. :smalltongue:

I only suggested it because... it's incredibly modular and can be used to do anything you want. And the default magic system is pretty good, and also all draws on the same 'power source' by default.

It has rules for divine magic, too, but you don't have to use them.

[Morty]

I agree that GURPS works for "D&D without divine magic". Mostly because if you put your mind into it, GURPS works for everything.
I also agree that D&D is perfectly workable as-is if you just scratch out divine spellcasters. The only problem is healing, and bards and magic items solve that problem, if you don't want to just give wizards and sorcerers healing spells.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Bards can cast healing spells. They are arcane.

There is also absolutely nothing stopping you from adding healing spells to arcane classes (not that you need to, because there's already an arcane class that can heal).

Bards are missing remove disease, heal, regenerate and all of the spells that bring the dead back to life. Adding these spells to the Bard list, in my opinion, is a perfectly reasonable house rule.

If you're playing Pathfinder, the Witch can cast all of the healing spells, including the resurrection spells, and the Hedge Witch archetype can cast them spontaneously like a Cleric.

You could allow a Wizard or Sorcerer to substitute their spell list for the Witch list. That is effectively an across-the-board nerf, but it allows them to have healing magic.

Shugenja are technically divine casters, but their magic powers don't come from gods so much as elemental spirits. Except for Fire Shugenja, they have access to all of the important healing spells. You can actually use the Shugenja as an adequate substitute for all of the spellcasters, if you wanted to. No reason you couldn't change them from divine to arcane, either, since they don't even have armor proficiency.

[cellingwood]

I did only look at the free preview for GURPS. How different is it from the full game?

[DeadManSleeping]

GURPS is closer to AD&D than D&D 3.x. Let's just leave it at that.

[Dimers]

The problem with that is that I'm worried that taking so much out of the game will cripple it. Can the system survive without divine magic? Without magical healing?

Any psi-manifesting character can learn healing spells, either by their class directly or via a feat. Bards get healing. Archivists get healing via bards. You might view druids and rangers as "natural" instead of "divine", in which case, there's another couple base classes. SLAs can provide healing in some cases. Items can grant faster-than-normal natural healing or outright magical healing. If you party doesn't have any existing character with heal powers, they still might have one with UMD.

To parrot Yuki Akuma and Viktyr Korimir, as the DM, you can add whatever spells you want to whatever class you want, if you feel they're necessary.

Also, if you eliminate the 'normal' means of healing without even lifting a finger to find a substitute, you can still bet the players will find a way that satisfies their needs. They'll play more carefully and get hurt less, or hire an NPC, or take feats to reduce the need, or multiclass, or ... ya know, whatever it takes.

The bigger question, can the system work without divine magic of whatever sort? Yeah; you'll lose a couple players who only want to play divine, but you'll just select others instead. There's no inherent need for any divine class in a D&D-like world.

I understand what you mean about GURPS. Four attributes? Really? Well, no, not really, because those four have to be modified in seventy different ways, and each one makes it more clear that the design crams together things that aren't supposed to be crammed together. It's too simplistic on the top level and too complex one step below that. When I set out to modify GURPS, I ended up just making an entire new system, and I got ten base attributes out of it ... :smallsigh: :smallamused:

[Ravens_cry]

Sorry, but that's not what I'm looking for. I want one magic power source in a medieval era. I'll be using my own setting so the system just needs to be compatable with middle ages tech.

As others have pointed out, you can just add the spells, which include status effect removal as much as healing hit points, to an arcane classes spell list, perhaps adding a Healing arcane school to allow players to specialize in this role if they so desire.

[cellingwood]

As others have pointed out, you can just add the spells, which include status effect removal as much as healing hit points, to an arcane classes spell list, perhaps adding a Healing arcane school to allow players to specialize in this role if they so desire.

That sounds like it could work... pick and choose divine spells and introduce them as a new spell school into the existing Arcane Magic framework. This will give those classes more options, forcing them to be extra careful about what spells they choose, and create a different speciality for the classes.

[LibraryOgre]

You might look into d6 Fantasy. d6 tended toward single-power-source, and even if they didn't use it there, it's pretty easy to set everything on that single source.

[LibraryOgre]

Also, Earthdawn. Remove the Passions, and it works just fine.

[Ravens_cry]

That sounds like it could work... pick and choose divine spells and introduce them as a new spell school into the existing Arcane Magic framework. This will give those classes more options, forcing them to be extra careful about what spells they choose, and create a different speciality for the classes.
It creates some interesting effects. One, it gives a player who wishes to play a more traditional wizard a class they can easily ban. Two, now wizards can literally do everything. Sure, they could do it before by proxy with the right summons, but now its that much easier. Three, unlike a cleric, a wizard can not wade into combat to lay on the heal, d4 just isn't enough, so long term healing spells, like the vigour line of spells, will become even MORE important.
Still, I hope to hear how this turns out. It will undoubtedly add some quirks to the game, yet it could be interesting if done right.

[cellingwood]

Three, unlike a cleric, a wizard can not wade into combat to lay on the heal, d4 just isn't enough, so long term healing spells, like the vigour line of spells, will become even MORE important.
Still, I hope to hear how this turns out. It will undoubtedly add some quirks to the game, yet it could be interesting if done right.

Yeah Wizard class will probaly favor banning the 'restoration' school, but more militant classes like the magus(Pathfinder) will focus on it more, because they can get closer. Of course, now the magus can heal by attacking with his sword. That should be fun. :smalltongue:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Are druids and shamans still around? What about clerics of causes?

[cellingwood]

Are druids and shamans still around? What about clerics of causes?

No Divine magic, no classes that use Divine Magic. The players can still roleplay, but there is no direct evidence of gods/divinity in this setting.

[Ravens_cry]

If you are going to have a medieval setting, you should probably include at least a faith in the divine. The whole dynamic set the tone for the entire era.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No Divine magic, no classes that use Divine Magic. The players can still roleplay, but there is no direct evidence of gods/divinity in this setting.

Druids and shamans don't draw power from gods.

[cellingwood]

If you are going to have a medieval setting, you should probably include at least a faith in the divine. The whole dynamic set the tone for the entire era.

I'm not saying there won't be gods or religion in this setting, there just won't be any direct evidence for them existing. Keeping it ambiguous, more realistic. I'm hoping to allow for mortal error in this setting, vanilla DND can't really have heretics when there are huge groups of people that have their god on speed-dial to clarify any doctrinal issues. This also makes atheism a viable character choice, unlike DND.


Druids and shamans don't draw power from gods.

I know, but I want 'magic' to be one, unified, power source. That means just Arcane magic, or as discussed in a previous post further up, divine spells being used as arcane magic by the arcane classes.

[Yuki Akuma]

There's no evidence for any of the gods in the Eberron setting existing, either (except for the Silver Flame, which isn't a god). :smallwink:

[Hiro Protagonest]

There's no evidence for any of the gods in the Eberron setting existing, either (except for the Silver Flame, which isn't a god). :smallwink:

Aye. You can even get divine power from worshipping the egg you ate for breakfast!

[cellingwood]

There's no evidence for any of the gods in the Eberron setting existing, either (except for the Silver Flame, which isn't a god). :smallwink:

How in the Nine Hells does Divine magic work then?:smallconfused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

How in the Nine Hells does Divine magic work then?:smallconfused:

Faith.

Duh. :smalltongue:

[Siosilvar]

How in the Nine Hells does Divine magic work then?:smallconfused:

This is the answer to a different question, but it works here, too:


Your sheer belief that yes, you can do this actually causes the world to respond appropriately...
(Yes, I just quoted myself.)

[cellingwood]

Well that's just silly.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well that's just silly.

And gods handing out power to certain priests but not others isn't?

And sorcerers bend the laws of reality through sheer force of personality.

I also vastly prefer it to "I worship you, you give me powah. Kapeesh?".

[LibraryOgre]

Since you're asking in Older D&D, the way it actually works (for AD&D and, I assume, oD&D) is that the first two levels of spells are granted by faith. The next few are granted by increasingly powerful servants of deities, until you get to 5th level spells, where hero deities cap out. Lesser and Intermediate deities directly grant 6th level spells, and only greater deities can grant 7th level spells.

Now, AD&D had a variety of shaman classes, but one of the most interesting was from the Shaman supplement by Kevin Hassal, where spirits grant their spells... and there are usually very specific sacrifices that must be made to keep the favor of various spirits.

The reason clerics (and druids, who are either a subclass of cleric, a specialty priest, or a prestige class for 9th+ level clerics, depending on what ruleset you're using) are used is because the deities are forbidden from acting directly in the world. If one god can do it, so can another, and eventually, you wind up with a world solely subject to divine whims. Giving power to trusted servants is how gods get around this... they don't act directly, they have others take care of it. As clerics increase in level, deities know they can be trusted further... a long period of time in service and the deity can see that they're true to the ideals.

It is a reciprocal relationship... the cleric acts for the deity, and the deity gives them the power to act in their name. Deity is increased in power through the cleric's actions (supporting the deity's purposes, defeating its enemies, or simply growing a legend around the cleric himself, in which the deity is sure to be mentioned), and cleric is granted more power for the use in service of the deity.

[RebelRogue]

As has been noted, Eberron may or may not have deities, but they certainly don't interfere with the world directly. IIRC angels (and similar Outsiders traditionally serving deities) exist, but they have never experienced any direct interference from any gods either. And there's several religions that's really more philosophy than anything else (The Path of Light and the Blood of Vol). The setting still has divine characters as explained above, though.

Apart from that, if you don't mind 4e, the fact that all Leaders can do in-combat healing and any ritual caster can remove more permanent conditions/raise the dead means you don't have to worry about those things not being available. Just disallow Cleric, Paladin, Avenger, Invoker, and Runepriest, and everything should work out fine as is.

[Hoddypeak]

I'm not sure what you're looking for. Do you want D&D without any of its divine magic, and you don't mind just having people rely on natural healing, or do you want a system that has magical healing?

If it's the former, then just take your preferred D&D game and rip out divine casters. Sorry, no magical healing. The heal skill will become useful and you'll have to give the characters downtime to heal up, just like in the real middle ages.

If it's the latter, then I agree with above posters who say select the divine spells you want to keep and refluff them as arcane spells. Maybe you'll want to write up separate white mage and black mage type classes, or maybe you just want to add those to the standard arcane spell lists.

In either case, starting from your preferred game system and just tweaking is probably your best bet. If you wanted, you could even add 4e style healing surges to OD&D and get rid of clerics and it wouldn't ruin everything.

[The Cat Goddess]

In 3.5 edition D&D, there are feats (and ACFs) that Sorcerers & Wizards can get to gain access to "divine" spells via Domain access.

[Ravens_cry]

I know I came up with it, so I have a certain vested interest, but I still like the idea of the Healing arcane school.

[cellingwood]

To clarify, I am looking for three (3) things:
1. No direct evidence of gods. No angels, no demons, no devil, no visiting or communicating with heavens and hells.
2. A single, unified magic. Arcane, or whatever you want to call it, and nothing else.
3. Some system similar to DND.


I think Ravens_cry had the best idea: pick and choose divine spells, and make them an Arcane school of study in the existing DND 3.5 or Pathfinder systems.
This pretty much answers my question, and I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions. I'll still check back here from time to time to see if anyone has a better idea, but I think that's unlikely.

[Sidmen]

Might I suggest the Dragon Age RPG (http://greenronin.com/dragon_age/)?

I think it fits all your qualifications:

Magic all comes from the same source, there are no "gods" that have shaped the setting even though people certainly do believe there are, all spirits/demons come from the same place - the Fade - a place of dreams.

The system itself is very nifty, using mechanics that are easy to understand and expand upon - using "stunts" in the place of 101 special maneuvers. It otherwise works similarly to dnd (except it uses d6's and only d6's) you add your roll to your ability (plus skill if applicable) and compare it to a target number (difficulty check).

And if you want, you can completely axe the fade with no downside.

[Kuma Kode]

I'm a little surprised d20 Modern hasn't been mentioned. Sure, it was the red-headed stepchild Wizards of the Coast never really wanted, but it fits pretty well. Between Urban Arcana and d20 Past, you should easily be able to run a medieval game. Allow only the mage class, or perhaps the Occultist if you want to make magic even less powerful and more mysterious.

If (lack of) healing is a problem, you can use the Vitality and Wound system from the d20 SRD. It allows heroes to spring back from battles via their Vitality points, which heal per hour instead of per day, but still allow for lucky hits to drop characters or for them to be taken out of combat for a prolonged periods via damage to Wound.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

To clarify, I am looking for three (3) things:
1. No direct evidence of gods. No angels, no demons, no devil, no visiting or communicating with heavens and hells.
2. A single, unified magic. Arcane, or whatever you want to call it, and nothing else.
3. Some system similar to DND.


I think Ravens_cry had the best idea: pick and choose divine spells, and make them an Arcane school of study in the existing DND 3.5 or Pathfinder systems.
This pretty much answers my question, and I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions. I'll still check back here from time to time to see if anyone has a better idea, but I think that's unlikely.

I'm thinking Rolemaster's spell lists. Think Cleric Domains, except they have multiple spells per level on them, like Healing would have all the cure spells and all the status effect removers and Fire would have all of the common fire-based spells, and so forth. Each spellcaster gets to pick a number of spell lists at 1st level from which he is allowed to select his Spells Known, and can take a feat to give him access to more.

So your Sorcerer would have 8 spell lists and your Bard would have 6. If you wanted to differentiate the classes more, you could make different classes have access to different sets of lists, use different casting stats, and so forth.

[Smokin Red]

I think that this is basically a great idea. Perhaps I will try something like that in my next campaign.

Why don't you just remove the divine fluff from D&D?

So, you keep all classes (perhaps remove some of the spells, e.g. commune, gate,...), and basically the clerics, druids, etc. are just arcane casters, who use their magic to impress the commoners/reach their goals?
Or you take out clerics, and use only favored souls as a sorcerer variant (with different spells)
Additionally, you could use the non-caster paladin variant from CW.

[WitchSlayer]

To clarify, I am looking for three (3) things:
1. No direct evidence of gods. No angels, no demons, no devil, no visiting or communicating with heavens and hells.
2. A single, unified magic. Arcane, or whatever you want to call it, and nothing else.
3. Some system similar to DND.


I think Ravens_cry had the best idea: pick and choose divine spells, and make them an Arcane school of study in the existing DND 3.5 or Pathfinder systems.
This pretty much answers my question, and I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions. I'll still check back here from time to time to see if anyone has a better idea, but I think that's unlikely.

As mentioned above you could use 4th edition and disallow divine. Heck, if you wanted just one system that did not include the hells the heavens or anything, you could choose psionics as the system of magic, disallowing primal and arcane!
...
Oh, that's almost Dark Sun.
Oops.

[Ravens_cry]

If (lack of) healing is a problem, you can use the Vitality and Wound system from the d20 SRD. It allows heroes to spring back from battles via their Vitality points, which heal per hour instead of per day, but still allow for lucky hits to drop characters or for them to be taken out of combat for a prolonged periods via damage to Wound.
The trouble is not just a lack of healing, but a lack of ways of getting rid of status effects.

[Kuma Kode]

The trouble is not just a lack of healing, but a lack of ways of getting rid of status effects.

Status effects aren't quite as common in d20 Modern as they are in D&D, but most of them can be removed or alleviated by the use of Treat Injury.

[Morph Bark]

Arcane Disciple makes the domain spells it adds to your known spells arcane, right?

There ya go.

I would have suggested Risus, but apparently GURPS is too simplistic already.

You could re-fluff Star Wars as a medieval setting. You just don't go to other planets, you go to other countries. And there are no droids (though they could be golems).

[Ravens_cry]

Status effects aren't quite as common in d20 Modern as they are in D&D, but most of them can be removed or alleviated by the use of Treat Injury.
Yes, but this game is apparently intended to still include full arcane magic.

[Kuma Kode]

Yes, but this game is apparently intended to still include full arcane magic.

Well, considering the OP was messing around with different systems, I assumed their idea of "full arcane" was rather subjective. D20 Modern allows magic and magic items, it's just not something you can necessarily start out with. The Mage and Acolyte advanced classes can be entered at level 4, I believe. Depending on your starting occupation, you might start out with a feat that gives you a few spell-like abilities, which can model a fledgling wizard who hasn't yet mastered all the nuances of magic yet.

Acolyte is essentially the cleric, but considering that they gain power from abstract allegiances, the presence of an acolyte doesn't necessarily mean gods, just that they draw supernatural power from their faith. Acolytes can also be removed and have their magic handed over to the Mage or something.

Not saying it's a perfect system for it, but it's mechanically just like D&D without integral magic, so spells can be added or modified without having to gut the entire system (like D&D).

If level 4 is too late for you, you could even add a smart hero talent tree that grants spellcasting ability, and change mage to require one of them.

The Core book has some magic, but most of it is found in Urban Arcana, which is an entire splatbook about bringing all the fantasy races and magic and such from D&D into a modern world. It has medieval items and everything, though d20 Past may also be worth looking into, also.