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View Full Version : Suggestions for Fixing LA Issues (WIP/post a suggestion!)



Noctis Vigil
2011-11-04, 11:25 PM
So, LA is a bad idea in general, but as a GM, I have players who want to play races with LA a lot (because let's face it, Jovians and Stheins are just awesome). So I was wondering what some of the common methods of making LA less painful to the player are. Please post here if you have a good method/think of a good method.

I use a combination of buy off from Unearthed Arcana and a unique little idea (still in testing). Basically, when you start, you pick your class. If you have LA, you get that many extra hit dice from your starting class. So if I have LA4 and pick Wizard as my starting class, I count as 5th level, so I start with 5d4 HP. As you buy off LA, you simply gain the rest of the level's abilities (meaning you determine what your LA will buy off into at character creation, and can't change it later).

What do other people do? I'd love to know. :smallsmile:

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-04, 11:32 PM
So, LA is a bad idea in general, but as a GM, I have players who want to play races with LA a lot (because let's face it, Jovians and Stheins are just awesome). So I was wondering what some of the common methods of making LA less painful to the player are. Please post here if you have a good method/think of a good method.

I use a combination of buy off from Unearthed Arcana and a unique little idea (still in testing). Basically, when you start, you pick your class. If you have LA, you get that many extra hit dice from your starting class. So if I have LA4 and pick Wizard as my starting class, I count as 5th level, so I start with 5d4 HP. As you buy off LA, you simply gain the rest of the level's abilities (meaning you determine what your LA will buy off into at character creation, and can't change it later).

What do other people do? I'd love to know. :smallsmile:

Back when I made LA 0 Dragons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206788) because I was tired of LA, DracoDei came and posted a suggestion of treating LA as required levels in commoner, because "
Because Commoner X (plus whatever PC class and RHD apply) is better than LA X"

So it's like your idea, only instead of benefiting single-classed characters, it screws everyone over equally.

So in this system, if you wanted to be an LA 4 wizard, you would be a Commoner 4/Wizard 1, for an ECL of 5, with a total of +2 BAB, saves Fort: +1, Ref: +1, Will: +3, and 5d4 hit dice.

Hope this helps.

lunar2
2011-11-04, 11:47 PM
when I started playing, the DM's rule was that you get feats, ability points, caster level (if your race was the same caster type as your class) and max skill ranks (but not skill points) based on your ECL, not your HD.

Noctis Vigil
2011-11-05, 12:15 AM
I've heard of the Commoner rule for LA, though I didn't want a full class level at the start; the race is (supposedly) already worth several levels; my goal with my HD setup was purely to offset squishiness problems. Also, full levels in Commoner can't be bought off easily (changing classes is hard; trust me, I've had to pull it off in games).

Isn't max skill ranks always based off ECL? :smallconfused: If no, I guess I did this without knowing.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-05, 12:36 AM
I've heard of the Commoner rule for LA, though I didn't want a full class level at the start; the race is (supposedly) already worth several levels; my goal with my HD setup was purely to offset squishiness problems. Also, full levels in Commoner can't be bought off easily (changing classes is hard; trust me, I've had to pull it off in games).

You're right, but Commoner rules for LA generally replace the buy off, they don't sync with it.


Isn't max skill ranks always based off ECL? :smallconfused: If no, I guess I did this without knowing.

No. ECL is used to calculate a player's experience points only. It has no other purpose.

Yitzi
2011-11-06, 08:20 AM
For those cases where it's needed (not all of them), making them into commoner levels seems a decent fix.

Chaos_Laicosin
2011-11-06, 12:16 PM
If you know what you are doing, then you can work around the LA. To me, a LA of +1 for a hobgoblin is awesome when you consider that they get a +2 to Dex and Con and no stat penalties. Just play up their Dex bonus to AC and boost their Con for HP bonus and make an uber barbarian. Half-giant is awesome,too. A LA of +1 and a +2 to Str and Con and a -2 to Dex. Go psychic warrior with heavy armour so that you can self buff your AC and health, while keeping up with the rest of the party. The 1 less BAB shouldn't be too big of an issue in either case.

But I suppose that only applies to low LA races. Going for a race with a high LA would be purely for role-playing purposes and it sounds like your players are power gamers.

Noctis Vigil
2011-11-06, 01:18 PM
Actually, while we do play high powered games, we aren't power gamers; our games focus very heavily on the RP side of the game instead of combat.

One other question: how do people here handle LA in gestalt games? I usually just divide the LA by 2, but surely there's a more elegant way.

Yitzi
2011-11-06, 01:23 PM
If you know what you are doing, then you can work around the LA. To me, a LA of +1 for a hobgoblin is awesome when you consider that they get a +2 to Dex and Con and no stat penalties. Just play up their Dex bonus to AC and boost their Con for HP bonus and make an uber barbarian. Half-giant is awesome,too. A LA of +1 and a +2 to Str and Con and a -2 to Dex.

You forgot the most important part: Powerful build. With the right builds, that ability is almost as good as +8 STR.


But I suppose that only applies to low LA races. Going for a race with a high LA would be purely for role-playing purposes

Not necessarily. Even high-LA races can be optimized to make it worthwhile, although of course it's harder. Leaving aside the classic half-red-dragon troll, phrenic nymph also makes for a pretty good CHA-based class (you just have to use UPD with Vigor to ensure that the rare successful hit doesn't one-shot you, and get some protection from things that don't require attack rolls and don't allow saves.)

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-06, 01:30 PM
One other question: how do people here handle LA in gestalt games? I usually just divide the LA by 2, but surely there's a more elegant way.

You dump all the LA on one side, and the character only has one class until he finishes. (Warblade 4//Half-Dragon 3/Wizard 1)

Edit: Dividing the LA by 2 does not work. If you say "Okay, you have an LA 4, so you get LA 2//LA 2, then the character still starts the game at level 3. He is only losing two levels. Granted, they are two levels from two classes, but that's not the issue. The issue is that you are supposed to lose four levels of hit points, skill points, BAB, saves and XP to qualify for that race. Losing 2 levels in two different classes does not make your total XP 10,000, nor does it mean that you need 15,000 XP to reach effective level 2. That's the penalty for LA. Dividing it by 2 does not justify anything.

Noctis Vigil
2011-11-07, 12:51 AM
You dump all the LA on one side, and the character only has one class until he finishes. (Warblade 4//Half-Dragon 3/Wizard 1)

Edit: Dividing the LA by 2 does not work. If you say "Okay, you have an LA 4, so you get LA 2//LA 2, then the character still starts the game at level 3. He is only losing two levels. Granted, they are two levels from two classes, but that's not the issue. The issue is that you are supposed to lose four levels of hit points, skill points, BAB, saves and XP to qualify for that race. Losing 2 levels in two different classes does not make your total XP 10,000, nor does it mean that you need 15,000 XP to reach effective level 2. That's the penalty for LA. Dividing it by 2 does not justify anything.

I never said it was perfect; I just said it's always worked fine for me. I would be interested in seeing how your suggestion compares to mine power-wise, though. You could still build a gestalt that got maximum caster levels using yours (something I tried to avoid with my gestalt LA rules), so I suspect yours is more powerful in the long run. However, yours also would let me run a game with LA from first level at no real penalties to speak of, thereby making it amazing. Thank you.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-07, 12:59 AM
I never said it was perfect; I just said it's always worked fine for me. I would be interested in seeing how your suggestion compares to mine power-wise, though. You could still build a gestalt that got maximum caster levels using yours (something I tried to avoid with my gestalt LA rules), so I suspect yours is more powerful in the long run. However, yours also would let me run a game with LA from first level at no real penalties to speak of, thereby making it amazing. Thank you.

The penalties are that you are not gestalting. And I don't really believe the "You earn LA slowly" thing works, you would still need to start with all your LA used (so you could start at level 1, but only if your LA was +1 total)