Pathfinder Monk - Really?

[agentnone]

Ok, so I've done a lot of reading and research. Even going so far as to make a monk character and go through the rolls of combat with a few enemies. Do they really suck that bad? I have a player in my group who's playing a monk and she's getting frustrated with it unable to hit anything in combat. And when she does hit something, she barely does any damage to it. She has the monk robe magic item that increases her unarmed damage but it doesn't seem to help much. The group I have is about 6 players at around level 10-11, so many of the enemies they fight have all kinds of defenses, fast healing, DR or all sorts of other stuff that make them a challenge and yet, she's unable to really help the party in combat. Even the dimwitted cleric (player, not character) and unexperienced sorcerer outshine her ten fold. She's opted to just retire her monk and make a fighter because of how ineffective she is. My question is, are monks really that bad? No one in our group played one when we played 3.5 D&D, but after comparing them with Pathfinder, they looked like they got a slight upgrade. We play core rules with the APG. Is there anything she can do to make her character more effective? She's fairly new to the whole d20 game but we've helped her quite a bit so far. Even so much as telling her to use combat maneuvers instead of regular attacks, but even then she's struggling. Do monks really suck that much or are we missing something? Anything I can do as the DM other than to modify every combat encounter to help her character be on-par with the rest of the party?

[Bhaakon]

Short answer, yes they suck. Especially if you are comparing them to a cleric or sorcerer.

They're particularly troublesome in a larger party, because they have no clear role. They're not good tanks, it's hard to optimize their damage output, they aren't really skill monkeys, they don't make good party faces, and they're not casters. In a party of 6, there are bound to be one or more PCs better than the monk at anything it can do.

There are a few things in pathfinder that can make them more effective (focus on combat maneuvers, quinggong archetype, maybe the zen archer archetype, and Ultimate Combat added some useful things for monks which might be worth adding to your game), but you're going to have exhaust your op fu to avoid being completely overshadowed by full casters.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Taking a party like yours as baseline, a monk needs a lot more optimization than everyone else to contribute equally. (Taking a higher optimization bar as a baseline, a monk simply can't contribute equally.)

Pathfinder Monks basically require creative use of archetypes (hungry ghost/qingong/etc) to get some neat tricks. This IMO is still an improvement over 3.5, which treats monk as a 2 level dip before Ardent or Psychic Warrior (plus Tashalatora feat), but it presents a problem to a new player trying to play an unarmed warrior. Retiring the character may indeed be for the best. At your level of play the fighter should be able to contribute, at least in combat.

[Blisstake]

Well, I've only seen a player play a monk once in Pathfinder (3 times in 3.5 core, oddly enough) from levels 5-15. And he did pretty well in comparison to the rest of the party (barbarian, sorcerer, and druid).

The biggest thing that helped was a "Magic Fang" spell from the druid, which worked on his unarmed strikes. He mostly went after low-AC enemies, and punished them pretty badly. Using stunning fist on wizards, and then full attacking them the next round while their spells were pretty much inneffective against him. He was basically on par with the rest of the group, unless it came to fighting very large enemies that wouldn't be affected by his combat maneuvers, stunning fist, and were often difficult to hit. It was a mixed bag, I suppose.

This was core only, and I've noticed a few nice upgrades in source books (it looks like Paizo realized they were still a bit weak)

APG gives the brass knuckles which are a much cheaper alternative to the Amulet of Mighty Fists (possibly getting errata'd? I don't know).* It also adds some nice archetypes (I'm a fan of Hungry Ghost Monk and Monk of Four Winds), which gives the monks more options.

Ultimate Magic adds a monk archetype that pretty much every monk should take... as far as I'm aware it doesn't have any drawbacks.

Ultimate Combat gives monks a lot of love with a bunch of archetypes (the grappling one looks interesting as it can eventually surpress both teleportation and "Freedom from Movement."), a bunch of feats (including eventually being able to teleport and full attack), and styles, which can give some pretty nice damage or utility.

In short, they could be better yeah, but they aren't horrible from my... well, single experience. In theory, they've got some pretty cool new options now, but I've never really had the chance to test them out.



*Before this, I also liked to add magic items called handwraps (DDO style) that basically just acted like magic weapons for monks. I never understood why WotC/Paizo wanted it to be difficult for monks to get an enhancement bonus (AoMF is slightly cheaper in PF, and can add more properties at least). They're already a medium BAB class :smallconfused:

[Doorhandle]

Is she making the "Wisdom is more importnat then strength" mistake?

[Ravens_cry]

Is she making the "Wisdom is more importnat then strength" mistake?
Not a mistake with the guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided) weapon property. You can in fact dump strength as long as you are willing to depend on a magic item and not go into non-attack roll combat manoeuvres.

[agentnone]

APG gives the brass knuckles which are a much cheaper alternative to the Amulet of Mighty Fists (possibly getting errata'd? I don't know).* It also adds some nice archetypes (I'm a fan of Hungry Ghost Monk and Monk of Four Winds), which gives the monks more options.


*Before this, I also liked to add magic items called handwraps (DDO style) that basically just acted like magic weapons for monks. I never understood why WotC/Paizo wanted it to be difficult for monks to get an enhancement bonus (AoMF is slightly cheaper in PF, and can add more properties at least). They're already a medium BAB class :smallconfused:

We have the APG though the way the brass knuckles reads to my, and the others, is that since the brass knuckles are weapons, they override the monk's unarmed damage. It is, afterall, a weapon that allows those without IUC to use their fists without taking AoO or a -4 penalty to hit to make their non-lethal attacks lethal. However, the Fist Wrap idea isn't that bad...never really thought about it. Maybe I could make a house rule/DM fiat thing to allow monks to have access to fist wraps that can benefit from magicl enhancements just like swords and bows could. Might help her out a little. If anything, I'll run this by her and see if she's willing to give it a shot. It's just hard for her to be effective because the campaign involves a lot of evil outsiders. Maybe suggest she take a level dip of Paladin for the Smite Evil? lol


Is she making the "Wisdom is more importnat then strength" mistake?

No, she's not. Our Paladin (almost a master at class optimization) helped her build it. Her Wisdom and Strength were her highest stats. Though I think Wisdom was slightly higher than Strength, but not my much. We don't have (and therefor don't use) the Ultimate guides. I like to run my games mostly core rulebook and don't allow anything that I don't physically own myself, or that someone else can't bring with at the beginning of the session and leave it for the rest of the campaign. Browsing sites and/or PDF's takes up table space with laptops and gets frustrating at times trying to find things.

[agentnone]

Also note that this is purely PF. I don't allow anything from 3.5 D&D or 3rd party sources, with exception of a few monsters like Mind Flayers and Beholders, since they aren't in the Bestiary 1. Though, on occasion, I hand out magic items from the MIC or other 3.5 sources as a sort of reward (like the beetle buckler for the druid we had). But I don't do that very often.

[TroubleBrewing]

No, she's not. Our Paladin (almost a master at class optimization) helped her build it. Her Wisdom and Strength were her highest stats. Though I think Wisdom was slightly higher than Strength, but not my much.

So... She IS making the mistake? :smalltongue:

[Talentless]

We have the APG though the way the brass knuckles reads to my, and the others, is that since the brass knuckles are weapons, they override the monk's unarmed damage. It is, afterall, a weapon that allows those without IUC to use their fists without taking AoO or a -4 penalty to hit to make their non-lethal attacks lethal. However, the Fist Wrap idea isn't that bad...never really thought about it. Maybe I could make a house rule/DM fiat thing to allow monks to have access to fist wraps that can benefit from magicl enhancements just like swords and bows could. Might help her out a little. If anything, I'll run this by her and see if she's willing to give it a shot. It's just hard for her to be effective because the campaign involves a lot of evil outsiders. Maybe suggest she take a level dip of Paladin for the Smite Evil? lol




Did I miss something where Monk's couldn't swap their class feature damage dice for brass knuckles? or was that a houserule last DM i played with used?

[agentnone]

So... She IS making the mistake? :smalltongue:

No, not really to that extent. Her Wisdom is actually higher than her Strenght, by maybe 2 points (a +1 difference), but she has the physical belt item that boosts her 3 physical stats. Plus the Monk Robe that increases her unarmed monk damage as if she were 4 (?) levels higher. Its just that even with all of that, and Haste from the sorcerer and Bulls Strength she still struggles.


Did I miss something where Monk's couldn't swap their class feature damage dice for brass knuckles? or was that a houserule last DM i played with used?

The way I see if, whats the point of using Brass Knuckles if you're monk damage is already much more than the small damage that weapon does? They can use them, as they're monk weapons, but I don't know why they would. They use their monk unarmed damage without them already, and can with them as well. I don't think the damage from the knuckles stacks with the monk's damage. Here's the PRD entry.

Brass Knuckles: These close combat weapons are designed to fit comfortably around the knuckles, narrowing the contact area and therefore magnifying the amount of force delivered by a punch. They allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks. You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting). Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.

They deal 1d2 for small characters, 1d3 for medium. What's the point? Unless of course they are enchanted with bonuses to hit/damage/effects thats the only reason I could see a monk using them. Which, I guess, makes a valid point.

[Mato]

Not a mistake with the guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided) weapon property. You can in fact dump strength as long as you are willing to depend on a magic item and not go into non-attack roll combat manoeuvres.Still a mistake.

You're citing a 6th~7th level or higher magic item as the "fix", and while doing so brush aside the fact that while the Monk is using +1 Guided the other meleers are using +1 Valorous for double damage. IE, you're still behind, just worse off now.

1st rule of Min/Max: Min.
Just because Wisdom gives bonuses doesn't mean you need it.

***

The Monk as a whole suffers, terribly. You need to run a higher optimized character than the rest of the party in order to be on par with them for the most part. Now there are some gems for the Monk, their highly diverse base can be focused though AFCs and they do ultimately work with the best weapon in the game. But most people just can't figure out how to approach them and try to spread them selves too thinly.

Some quick tips.
Amulet of Mighty Fists is Deprecated, use Amulet of Natural Weapons (SS) instead, or even better those PF Brass Knuckles there. Apprentice(scholar) (DMGII): Monk's can hold a Wand in either hand and still use Unarmed Strikes, Wand of Waithstrike (SpC) single handedly fixes the attack miss chance. Sandals of the Tiger's Leap (S&F): double damage while charging, at 3.5k you get it a level sooner than Valorous, and it stacks with it. Any complaints about the loss of an attack per round from BAB being some sort of meaningful damage loss should be directed to FoF, those Sandals, Snap Kick, and Wands of Greater Mighty Wallop. Unarmed Damage simply deals more than any other type of weapon in the game outside of critical focus.

Also, just don't let her go Fighter. She gains at best +2 damage (weapon special) and maybe 5 HP. Alternatively for example the ACF Holy Strike (BoED) gives +1d6 damage, and there is things like Evasion to weigh in too. idk about Pathfinder, but Fighter is literally a step backwards in 3.5.

[Telok]

Er, look at the last sentence you put up in the spoiler tags.


Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.

Replace the brass knuckle base damage with your monk's base unarmed damage. It's the enhancement for the unarmed strikes you were looking for.

[CactusAir]

The basic idea behind the monk class was flawed to begin with in 3.5, and pathfinder copied a lot of it over, so it's no surprise that PF monks kinda suck too.

The Monk basically tries to build in too much flavor with set abilities rather than giving you the ability to make your own mix. Which is why most people who like to be relevant to the party say eh and play a swordsage instead.

[Ravens_cry]

Still a mistake.

You're citing a 6th~7th level or higher magic item as the "fix", and while doing so brush aside the fact that while the Monk is using +1 Guided the other meleers are using +1 Valorous for double damage. IE, you're still behind, just worse off now.

1st rule of Min/Max: Min.
Just because Wisdom gives bonuses doesn't mean you need it.

***
Makes them a lot less MAD potentially, which is one of their major weaknesses compared to more traditional melee types. It's not a "fix" per se, but it does make them much more fun potentially, depending on group optimization comfort levels of course.

[Midnight_v]

Also note that this is purely PF. I don't allow anything from 3.5 D&D or 3rd party sources, with exception of a few monsters like Mind Flayers and Beholders, since they aren't in the Bestiary 1. Though, on occasion, I hand out magic items from the MIC or other 3.5 sources as a sort of reward (like the beetle buckler for the druid we had). But I don't do that very often.


Maybe I could make a house rule/DM fiat thing to allow monks to have access to fist wraps that can benefit from magicl enhancements just like swords and bows could.
What the difference in being a stickler about a source when you're actually considering just making something up anyway?
Okay, wait... belay the response to that. Consider it rhetorical.
That being said the Hand wraps are actually a good idea as far as "PowerGloves" for monks tend to go. That at least makes sense, so +1.

I'd like to say though, that there are things you could to, and really that many people have done to fix the class itself. I note that no one said "Make a Swordsage" which Is rare but again you're pathfinder only...still.

I'm gonna go out on a huge limb here and suggest... somthing you may or may not object to. Reading your Original post:

I have a player in my group who's playing a monk and she's getting frustrated with it unable to hit anything in combat. And when she does hit something, she barely does any damage to it.
What if you just say: "Monks have the good base attack bonus" end all.
It seems eloquent, and honestly, the develpers didnt' know what they were doing so monk gets hit pretty bad.
Aside from that... you could use the ineloquent soulution of giving her an item of "Full Bab" ala a permanent item of "Divine Power".

Finally, there are innumerable homebrew monk fixes in existance, perhaps you'd be open to finding one you'd like?

Well, thats my shotgun writing on the matter, I hope some of it catches you interest, and maybe helps you a bit. Oh and Btw, I hear people mention ultimate power, with has options for monks that are suspiciously Swordsage like, Stances and the like. . .ymmv

[marcielle]

People should really just get together and send letters to the Pathfinder guys.
'Monks are underpowered to a ridiculous degree. WotC even SAID they made things unbalanced on purpose. Just give them a straight upgrade already'
Has anyone ever done that? Wonder how hard it would be to get this going via GitP? Get some of the better optimizers to write up a structured explanation of what exactly is wrong with the monk with math and everything.

[Ravens_cry]

They got an upgrade. For some people, it's enough. For others, it's not.
Actually, having some classes be underpowered can potentially be a good thing for group dynamic.
Say you are a player who is a tweaker and you love to optimize, its part of the fun of the game for you, maybe even a large part.
There is nothing wrong with that but not everyone enjoys it to the same degree.
If all classes were by some miracle equal, if you are in a group with different optimisation comfort levels, which is practically speaking inevitable, with some much less, than you would be broken if you got to have fun.
And that's no fun for the rest of the group.
But lets say you pick a class that takes work and ingenuity to get up to par. Now you can have the fun, for you, of tweaking without overshadowing the group.
Win-win I say.

[The Boz]

Ten simple rules for playing the Monk
Full BAB - No way around this.
3 new feats - One is added to his bonus feat list at level 1, two for the bonus feat list at level 6. Weapon Finesse is added to his bonus feats at level 2, along with Guided Hand (Wis instead of Str on unarmed attack roll). Bloody Finesse (Dex instead of Str to melee damage w/ light and unarmed) and Guided Pain (Wis instead of Str to unarmed damage) to level 6. This takes care of a lot of MAD, leaving him with Wis, Con and Dex, a slightly more manageable ability dependence. Also, another bonus feat at level 4, so that you can take whatever you really needed (but not really really needed, such as WF or GH) while still "young".
Flurry - Always simply doubles his number of attacks while unarmed or with monk weapons. If using special maneuvers, Flurry always gives him one free attack as well as the maneuver. When charging, you get two attacks, and both benefit from the charge bonus. The same penalty still applies, and pairs of attacks use the same BAB.
Tongue of the Sun - Gained at level 8, allows communication with all humanoids capable of communicating. Tongue of the Moon is gained at level 11 and allows communication with living non-humanoids. Tongue of the Earth is gained at level 14, allows communication with non-living things capable of communication.
Outsider - At level 20, the monk can CHOOSE to count either as an outsider AND his race, only an outsider or only his race whenever prompted. This choice is available regardless of any effects might limit the monk's perception, action or sanity.
Invisibility - A 2pt ki power at level 7 lasting 10 rounds. This increases to Greater Invisibility at 11 with the same duration.
Wholeness of Body - Monk level * Wisdom modifier.
Ki Defense - +4 to one save (before rolling) for 1 point
Ki Precision - 2 ki point power that allows him to ignore all magical enchantments, protections and buffs on the target for one round.
Maneuver Training - His maneuvers can NEVER be turned, and he can turn any maneuver that he successfully defends against (in monk vs monk combat, the never rule takes precedence).
Quivering Palm - Can be used to either stun(DC 15+), kill(DC 10+), interrupt spellcasting (DC 20+) or apply any Stunning Fist effect.

[nyarlathotep]

Rule 1 for using monks in pathfinder, find an archetype, Hungry ghost and quiggong preferably.

Rule 2 dumpster dive Ultimate Combat for style feats some of them are quite good.

Without these pathfinder monk is only a tiny bit better than 3.5 monk

[Zeikstraal]

Rebuild her character. Put highest on strength, not wisdom, strength. Wisdom is second. Give her Greater MAgic Fang +5 permanancied on both hands, its realy cheap.

let's say str 18, give her a belt of +4.
Flurry is full bab in PF. So thats at least a +9 to hit with the first.
+9 +6 +5 well thats a + 20 to hit on her first 2 attacks, it could be higher than the fighters.

+ 20/+20/+15/+15/+10 for 2d8+11 at least. You can always ad power attack for more damage. And I've not included an amulet of mighty fists for even more damage or Haste for the extra attack.

And don't forget to do the Medusa's Wrath, Ki pool strike combo.

So with all that included where looking at this.
+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 2D8+ 17 each attack. that is decent damage. Her AC should be around 26 or something. Not great but not an autohit.
Her saves are pretty good. And her touch AC is the highest of the party.

Hope this helps.

[Khantin]

any time a monk can get an amulet of mighty fists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists) with the guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided)property (5000 gold all told, as the aomf does NOT need a +1 enchant before getting properties), wisdom is strictly better than strength except in rare cases (weight limit, possibly some cmb cmd stuff, and amf fields).

strength will add to your damage and hit, but with the guided aomf, wisdom will add to your +hit +dmg +ac +ki pool and +dc on your monk abilities.

Early on the strength might be better, but as soon as you can afford that 5k item it becomes worse, and at higher levels it becomes crippling as you rely on your ki abilities more and more.

Consider a 17th level monk with 28 strength and 10 wisdom or 10 strength and 28 wisdom. The strength monk will have 8 ki points a day, meaning that he can only use his dimensional dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish) 4 times a day , assuming he does nothing else with his ki(although most people would want to keep 1 point in reserve, so 3 times). The wisdom monk can use it 8 times a day, while enjoying 9 higher ac and having a point left over to keep his fists as magic/adamantine/lawful weapons.

The strength monk could buy a +6 wisdom item and get up to a +5 inherent bonus to his wisdom and use some of his point buy to close the gap a little, but the wisdom monk will save a ton of money (and have higher dex/con) leaving strength as a total dump stat (buying a +6 dex and +6 con item is far cheaper than buying +6 to all physical stats, not to mention the expensive inherent bonus).

edit: i should add that greater magic fang can give +5 enh bonus to hit and damage, and the aomf can give up to +5 weapon properties (guided taking only +1 of that)

[Viktyr Gehrig]

People should really just get together and send letters to the Pathfinder guys.

CO BOARD uses EVIDENCE!

... It's not very effective.

[ericgrau]

So... She IS making the mistake? :smalltongue:

Ha actually it's still a mistake to even have a super high wisdom, she could be putting a lot of points elsewhere. For that matter her items don't seem that great, which really matter at 10-11 when you have 62,000+ gp in items. Besides a better focus on strength she needs, not wants, a beefy magic weapon, like a +1 holy weapon. Or else a way to boost unarmed damage so it actually does more than a weapon would. That's another +1 to hit right there. Boots of speed are essential if she isn't always hasted, for another attack and a +1. Weapon focus isn't bad on medium BAB, and with flurry granting full BAB and extra attacks her full attacks should hit as often than everyone else. So I don't see how this problem could exist in Pathfinder if she really does have the same strength and magic weaponry as the rest of the party... unless she actually doesn't.

Some good buffs from party casters include mage armor, heroism and greater magic weapon. The sorcerer should be able to spare a mage armor at least.

[Randomguy]

The thing about monks: They don't have weapons to enchant, they don't have armour to enchant, they have a lot of MAD, they have class features that don't synergise (flurry of blows and fast movement can't be used in the same round) and they don't fill any party role.

They can be made good through rigorous optimization (not really an option for core only), through taking a prc that merges monk features with either casting or psionics, through taking the "low tier classes get to gestalt with either other low tier classes or npc classes" approach (so monks get to be monk//warriors or monk//adepts for either some extra casting or full BAB) and perhaps the easiest way is through homebrew fixes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122)

[Big Fau]

CO BOARD uses EVIDENCE!

... It's not very effective.

Out raging, back in 5 minute.

[JoeYounger]

Not a mistake with the guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided) weapon property. You can in fact dump strength as long as you are willing to depend on a magic item and not go into non-attack roll combat manoeuvres.

In all of my parties, we've allowed two feats from 3.0/3.5 and its helped wonders for the monk. The first was the exalted feat (which we removed the alignment prereq from) that lets you use your wis instead of str to hit, and the other was a 3.0 feat that allowed you to use your wis instead of str for dmg. The cost of two feats to bring the monk up a notch or two has worked really well in all of my campaigns. we've never had a monk be the weak part of our party while we allowed those two feats.

[ericgrau]

The thing about monks: They don't have weapons to enchant....
Probably why I recommended a weapon. 2nd most common mistake besides having an ultra high wisdom is not using a weapon when a weapon does more damage. I mean, argh, I know you think this is what you should be doing but can't you at least see that this simple common option every other class is doing works better for you as well? Did monk players fail math class or something? Does everyone misread the class as "karate fighter"?

Save. Unarmed. Strikes. For. Stunning. Fist. And. Grapples. ONLY.

In Pathfinder you don't even use unarmed strikes for grapples, though PF added other unarmed strike options via feats. Even then it's only one attack per round; the rest should be from a weapon.

[Seerow]

In all of my parties, we've allowed two feats from 3.0/3.5 and its helped wonders for the monk. The first was the exalted feat (which we removed the alignment prereq from) that lets you use your wis instead of str to hit, and the other was a 3.0 feat that allowed you to use your wis instead of str for dmg. The cost of two feats to bring the monk up a notch or two has worked really well in all of my campaigns. we've never had a monk be the weak part of our party while we allowed those two feats.

The problem is, when a monk needs those feats to be remotely competitive, that's around the time when those feats should become class features.

[Mato]

In all of my parties, we've allowed two feats from 3.0/3.5 and its helped wonders for the monk.Pathfinder forbids using 3.0/3.5 rules?

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Pathfinder forbids using 3.0/3.5 rules?
No. PF is supposed to be backwards compatible. It's just that a lot of PF DMs don't use 3.X material.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Rule 1 for using monks in pathfinder, find an archetype, Hungry ghost and quiggong preferably.

Rule 2 dumpster dive Ultimate Combat for style feats some of them are quite good.

Without these pathfinder monk is only a tiny bit better than 3.5 monk

Another poster also recently showed me the trick of MoMS monk to get Crane's Wing or Dragon Style at level 1.

[Keinnicht]

Okay, something very important:

Tell her to go out and get the Tome of Battle. Use that instead.

Making a fighter because you're tired of being useless is not a good idea. Especially because you guys are 2 or 3 levels away from the point where Wizards start heading from "kind of better than a fighter" to "unbelievably better than a fighter."

ToB won't put them on the level of a Wizard, but it'll at least give them a little more variety and usefulness than a fighter has.

[Midnight_v]

Okay, something very important:

Tell her to go out and get the Tome of Battle. Use that instead.

Making a fighter because you're tired of being useless is not a good idea. Especially because you guys are 2 or 3 levels away from the point where Wizards start heading from "kind of better than a fighter" to "unbelievably better than a fighter."

ToB won't put them on the level of a Wizard, but it'll at least give them a little more variety and usefulness than a fighter has.

He says its Pathfinder only. . . minor distinction but an important one.

That leaves trying to make the ulitimate combat useful, to her I'd imagine.

[Hiro Protagonest]

He says its Pathfinder only. . . minor distinction but an important one.

That leaves trying to make the ulitimate combat useful, to her I'd imagine.

Adding APG and UC make monk with the right archetype tier 4. Unbreakable fighter and Tactician fighter aren't as good, but they're still better than core fighter.

[Leon]

Full BAB - No way around this.


Why is this always a concern for Monks and not Rogues who use the same attack value?



Do they really suck that bad?

Normally i would say no they don't but over time i have realized that a) people don't listen when its not something they agree with and b) i must be the only person in the world who has seen monks played well/work well in a group on a frequent basis.

[Bhaakon]

Why is this always a concern for Monks and not Rogues who use the same attack value?

Rogues have sneak attack to make up for it, monks don't.

[Seerow]

Why is this always a concern for Monks and not Rogues who use the same attack value?

Rogues get lots of bonus damage, less MAD, and no class features that reduce their attack bonus.


Normally i would say no they don't but over time i have realized that a) people don't listen when its not something they agree with and b) i must be the only person in the world who has seen monks played well/work well in a group on a frequent basis.


Must be.

[CommodoreCrunch]

I've played a fair amount of Monk-centric characters and will advocate for them not sucking too too bad. Yes, there's a power level difference. That doesn't mean you can't make an enjoyable monk.

Improved Natural Attack (Bestiary) is a relatively low-level feat that really helps a the monk's damage, and if you're a large character it's even better. Monk's Robe helps even more, until you hit the last increase in unarmed damage, then it's useless. Still good for most of the game though. Amulet of Mighty Fists gives the monk weapon enhancements without needing a +1 beforehand. And I'm pretty sure I've seen another magic item that works the same way but for armour enhancements. Lastly, a friendly caster or cheap magic item makes Enlarge Person your best friend. Better reach and, importantly, damage.

Most of the other things I use to buff them are 3.5, but easily converted. Tome of Battle has Superior Unarmed Strike, which treats you as a monk of four levels higher for damage. Same problem as Monk's Robe, but that's a late game problem. Intuitive Attack is an exalted feat that lets the monk use Wis to hit. Someone mentioned removing the alignment restriction and using it with a 3.0 feat that gives Wis to dam. Both great.

Aside from straight damage output, Monks make decent combat maneuver specialists. Grappling is always fun. And if larger creatures become a problem, a shot of Enlarge Person helps (for a while). Disarming is always a great option. Dip fighter for weapon proficiency and you an use their weapons against them. Of course, you can do that with fighter, and better. Oh well.

A disarming rogue with some monk levels (Empty Hand Archetype) can abuse the hell out of Catch Off-Guard while not having to rely on improvised weapons. Granted, Empty Hand's best abilities come pretty late, but being able to steal some dude's sword, light it on fire, then sneak attack him with it is pretty fun.

Monk also has some decent options with psionics. Psychic Fist continues monk ability progression and no matter what, most psionics wouldn't mind having decent fists to fall back on in a pinch.

I won't argue that monk has problems, but there's always stuff to do with it. It's a wonderful dip class, and beyond that it's still a pretty versatile class with lots of fun options. That's nothing to scoff at.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Improved Natural Attack (Bestiary)
Doesn't work with Monks unarmed attacks.

[MeeposFire]

Doesn't work with Monks unarmed attacks.

In pathfinder. It worked in 3.5. I mention this before somebody says "wait what yes you can".

[Mato]

Doesn't work with Monks unarmed attacks.Tis true. INA in PF doesn't work on Unarmed Strikes.

Anyway, I had a thought that went something like this.

Monks suck, but this is 3.0 and we like powerful items so have a few really good ones to try and keep up with the useful classes. ~3.0

Monk still suck, but we admit that now so have a few really useful ACFs, use those items before and heck you'll come out ok, if everyone else is using less than half the books you did... ~3.5

We fixed 3rd Edition, we took the time to fix the things that needed fixing! Like, we totally gave the Paladin multi round Smite, free weapon enhancements and spellcasting all around got a huge buff. We even made it so LA is ignored so you can play those huge monster races without sacrificing any spellcasting advancement too! Since this is a "fixed" version of D&D, let's discourage use of all 3rd Edition stuff. ~PF

I didn't think things could get any worse. ~Monk on PF

[agentnone]

I let her completely rebuild her monk before today's session. All I did was give them full BaB progression like a fighter and went through the arch types with her. She chose Zen Archer, which makes sense because we already had 1 fighter and her hubby came back from deployment and he too had a fighter, so ranged combat support helped a lot. Taking this route, her monk was much better. Her Str and Wis are both at 20 and with her having a magical strength bow and using her high Wisdom to hit instead of Dex, she was much more beneficial to the group. Sure, she missed a few times, but so did everyone else. She was on par with the group and pretty much took down the two clay golems I tossed at the group by herself. And one of the fighters in the group wasn't there at the time (he left early). So all in all, it was much more balanced and she actually had fun for a change. Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

[nyarlathotep]

I didn't think things could get any worse. ~Monk on PF

Hey now, they ended up with actual improvement. As Ultimate Combat would be more accurately titled "A multihundred page love letter to monks and gunslinger, oh and some other classes get stuff in back".

[CommodoreCrunch]

In pathfinder. It worked in 3.5. I mention this before somebody says "wait what yes you can". Man, that's depressing...

[Edit]: I can't see why, though. INA reads exactly the same as it did in 3.5, and the Monk in PF still mentions that its unarmed strike is considered manufactured AND natural. Can someone clear this up?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hey now, they ended up with actual improvement. As Ultimate Combat would be more accurately titled "A multihundred page love letter to monks and gunslinger, oh and some other classes get stuff in back".

"Just watch out for the traps. We want to fire the kobolds, but then they'd go all Tucker on us."

[tyckspoon]

Man, that's depressing...

[Edit]: I can't see why, though. INA reads exactly the same as it did in 3.5, and the Monk in PF still mentions that its unarmed strike is considered manufactured AND natural. Can someone clear this up?

One of the Pathfinder developers hates monks and issued an errata specifically denying it. There's no sound rules basis for it not working.

[MeeposFire]

One of the Pathfinder developers hates monks and issued an errata specifically denying it. There's no sound rules basis for it not working.

That and they made a dumb rule saying that your unarmed strike is no longer a natural weapon (but did not clean the language up elsewhere thus making it confusing) which cuts out some nice 3.5 support.

[CommodoreCrunch]

That's just...but...argh...sometimes, I hate people. The monk doesn't NEED more pointless neuters.

Thankfully, most of the DMs I know are reasonable towards monks and will probably okay INA if I want to use it.

[Blisstake]

Eh... it makes sense to me. Unarmed Strikes and Natural weapons seem to have different rules with how they work in combat (for example, Natural weapons in PF are divided into secondary and primary attacks while unarmed strikes have a special rules where they never count as an off hand attack). Also, monks already have the largest damage dice in the game for a one-handed weapon, and don't really need extra damage with their attacks. They need better accuracy if anything.

[Rubik]

Also, monks already have the largest damage dice in the game for a one-handed weapon, and don't really need extra damage with their attacks. They need better accuracy if anything.
WHAT?! .

[Seerow]

WHAT?! .

Technically the monk's fist at level 20 dealing 2d10 can be considered the equivalent of 1d10+5, which would be the highest damage one handed weapon with a +5 enhancement. If you threw on a bonus +5 to hit with unarmed strikes for free, it would be not too bad.

This doesn't however make it right, because most magic weapons aren't +5, they're +1 with assorted +damage properties worth far more than 4 extra damage on average.

[Blisstake]

WHAT?! .

Monks. Their unarmed strike (past a certain level) has greater damage dice than other one handed weapons. Is there something wrong with what I said?

They can be given an enhancement bonus, and now properties as well (although the only way they can add properties is overpriced: Amulet of Many Fists).

I'm saying not being able to take Improved Natural Attack really isn't that big of a deal. The monk has plenty of issues, but low damage dice isn't one of them.

[Hiro Protagonest]

They can be given an enhancement bonus

...Permanent Magic weapon/Fang? :smallconfused:

[Blisstake]

They can be that way, yes. There's also the knuckles/Amulet of Mighty Fists for a temporary effect.

I was just pointing out that they can be enhanced, though as a minor note. Not that it is efficient.

[Lycar]

This doesn't however make it right, because most magic weapons aren't +5, they're +1 with assorted +damage properties worth far more than 4 extra damage on average.

I believe this is where the aforementioned brass knuckles come in. :smallwink:

Also, don't forget that Monks are counted as having full BAB when flurrying and when using combat maneuvers. It isn't quite having a full BAB for real, but I believe they just wanted to delay meeting BAB prerequisites for certain feats.

[Curious]

I didn't think things could get any worse. ~Monk on PF

Uh. . . No. I'm sorry, but you've got that totally backwards. Things have never been better for Monks. The numerous archetypes provide dozens of options that have both much more power and synergy than the original class features. Style feats provide combat options which greatly enhance a Monks ability to lay the smack down. Brass Knuckles are a cheaper alternative to AoMF. Basically, the Monk is now bigger and better than ever. Comparatively.

Unarmed Swordsage is still better.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Uh. . . No. I'm sorry, but you've got that totally backwards. Things have never been better for Monks. The numerous archetypes provide dozens of options that have both much more power and synergy than the original class features. Style feats provide combat options which greatly enhance a Monks ability to lay the smack down. Brass Knuckles are a cheaper alternative to AoMF. Basically, the Monk is now bigger and better than ever. Comparatively.

Unarmed Swordsage is still better.Nitpick: Things were arguably better in 1e.

[Big Fau]

The monk has plenty of issues, but low damage dice isn't one of them.

Um, yes, they actually do have damage issues. You have to optimize heavily in order to get their damage up to a level comparable to that of a Rogue of equal level.

[Curious]

Nitpick: Things were arguably better in 1e.

Only if you started at least a few levels in. Otherwise, ugh.

[turkishproverb]

People should really just get together and send letters to the Pathfinder guys.
'Monks are underpowered to a ridiculous degree. WotC even SAID they made things unbalanced on purpose. Just give them a straight upgrade already'
Has anyone ever done that? Wonder how hard it would be to get this going via GitP? Get some of the better optimizers to write up a structured explanation of what exactly is wrong with the monk with math and everything.

Problem is, most people who make monk fixes lose a lot of the monks fun eccentricity.

Hrm...

Where did I put that upgrade I'd been working on...

[Gavinfoxx]

Problem is, most people who make monk fixes lose a lot of the monks fun eccentricity.

Even with this fix?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

[turkishproverb]

Okay, something very important:

Tell her to go out and get the Tome of Battle. Use that instead.
.

Some people don't want to be a swordsage, you know.



Even with this fix?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

That is...much closer than most I've read.

I must look further at this...

[Mato]

WHAT?!Unarmed Damage (without modifications) caps at 2d10 damage, the 11 point average is the greatest of Medium sized weapons and it can be done without a single Monk level really.

While one could argue THF's +1/2 Str mod proves it's not the best. However, Unarmed gets Greater Mighty Wallop for instant Colossal damage, then things like INA or Ectoplasm Shards for virtual bonuses beyond that. You'll easily outdo the offset of even Power Attack.

Also a single level dip into Exotic Weapon Master which gives you Uncanny Blow, a trait that notably lets you One-Hand stuff with an +100% Str bonus rather than +50% and you are treated as THF for feats like Power Attack. You can use a Scorpion's Kama to Uncanny Blow & Unarmed Damage. Then you still have unarmed exclusives like FoB, Snap Kick, Lightning Fists, Sandals of Tiger's Leap, or even the broken Energy Drain Armor Enhancement from Defender's of Faith.

Still not enough? Play a race that "naturally" produces poison, then wear a Ring of The Viper. You are a legal target for Venomfire and your "counts as a natural weapon" unarmed attacks deliver poison. You have more than enough ground to save Venomfire applies to your unarmed attacks.

Ultimately, Unarmed Strike is the highest damaging weapon in the game. Lances are the only thing that can deal more, but only when discussing charging. Of course, the Monk's role in optimizing Unarmed Damage is one level, it doesn't even account for 5% of your combination.


I was just pointing out that they can be enhanced, though as a minor note. Not that it is efficient.AoNW is 900gp, MWK Anything is 300+, it isn't too inefficient. Brass Knuckles brings enhancing to an equal cost level, save for even a Druid can enhance unarmed damage for free.


Uh. . . No. I'm sorry, but you've got that totally backwards. Things have never been better for Monks.]They did get *stuff*, they just didn't get as much *stuff* as everyone else, and were even apparently issued nerfs and the lack of care for 3rd Edition material hurts the poor Monk worse than anyone else.


Um, yes, they actually do have damage issues. You have to optimize heavily in order to get their damage up to a level comparable to that of a Rogue of equal level.Nah. Monks should charge and that's pretty easy to get into the several thousands range. Damage, like any charger, isn't their problem. It's being a one trick pony and worthless outside of combat. Like Monks disarm traps by running into them and solve social encounters by being blamed, executed, and forgotten.

[turkishproverb]

One of the Pathfinder developers hates monks and issued an errata specifically denying it. There's no sound rules basis for it not working.

Ah, pathfinder.

More 3.5 than 3.5. In all the wrong ways. :smallannoyed:

[CIDE]

In pathfinder. It worked in 3.5. I mention this before somebody says "wait what yes you can".


No, no, no... Wizards put up an article on Unarmed strikes on their website in the archives. Feats that enhance Natural Weapons don't affect Unarmed Strike (even a monk's) despite "spells and effects" enhancing them. I think it's bull**** and rule against Wizard's ruling with my own house rules. That's just me though.


Hey now, they ended up with actual improvement. As Ultimate Combat would be more accurately titled "A multihundred page love letter to monks and gunslinger, oh and some other classes get stuff in back".


You noticed this too? Fortunately I love me some Gunslinger. And Airships.


One of the Pathfinder developers hates monks and issued an errata specifically denying it. There's no sound rules basis for it not working.

Not just Pathfinder. It's 3.5 too.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a This should be the page.


Some people don't want to be a swordsage, you know.


I know I don't want to be one.

[Mato]

No, no, no... Wizards put up an article on Unarmed strikes on their website in the archives. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a) Feats that enhance Natural Weapons don't affect Unarmed Strike (even a monk's) despite "spells and effects" enhancing them. I think it's bull**** and rule against Wizard's ruling with my own house rules. That's just me though.
It's not a bad call.

Can a monk take Improved Natural Attack (MM 304) to improve his unarmed strike?
Yes. As stated on page 41 of the PH, a monk’s unarmed strike “is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either” which includes feats such as Improved Natural Attack.
Barring multiclassing, the earliest a monk could take this feat would be at 6th level (due to the base attack bonus prerequisite), at which point her unarmed strike damage would improve from 1d8 to 2d6 (which represents an average increase of +2.5 points of damage). The same monk at 20th level would deal 4d8 points of damage with her unarmed strike.

[Aethir]

The only text I see on that linked article relating to it states that they can use INA though.

[Blisstake]

Um, yes, they actually do have damage issues. You have to optimize heavily in order to get their damage up to a level comparable to that of a Rogue of equal level.

I am quite aware that they have issues in dealing damage. I'm saying it's not because of damage dice.

[Mooncrow]

Not just Pathfinder. It's 3.5 too.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a This should be the page.



So others don't have to wade through the test of the linked article, this is what is says about monks and Improved Natural Attack:
"This allows a monk access to all manner of weapon enhancements for her unarmed strikes. For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage."

[turkishproverb]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a[/url] This should be the page.

No, it isn't . Read the article again.

[Curious]

They did get *stuff*, they just didn't get as much *stuff* as everyone else, and were even apparently issued nerfs and the lack of care for 3rd Edition material hurts the poor Monk worse than anyone else.


You've got this all backwards; monks have gotten more stuff than anyone else, and it is better stuff than anyone else (any non-spellcaster that is) got.

Oh, and the only 'nerf' issued to monks is that they can not use TWF-ing combined with flurry now.

[turkishproverb]

Or anything that benifits natural weapons.

And that's not getting into just how WRONG you are about their getting "better stuff" than anyone else.

[charcoalninja]

Or anything that benifits natural weapons.

And that's not getting into just how WRONG you are about their getting "better stuff" than anyone else.

Being able to nightcrawler on demand is pretty sick though.

[CIDE]

"A feat that requires natural weaponry as a prerequisite, such as Multiattack, doesn't work with unarmed strikes. Likewise, having a natural weapon is not a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. For example, you don't meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for the Deflect Arrows feat if you just have a natural weapon."

As equally 'canon' sources have been cited the only conclusion (as I already go with this) would be house rules.

[charcoalninja]

"A feat that requires natural weaponry as a prerequisite, such as Multiattack, doesn't work with unarmed strikes. Likewise, having a natural weapon is not a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. For example, you don't meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for the Deflect Arrows feat if you just have a natural weapon."

As equally 'canon' sources have been cited the only conclusion (as I already go with this) would be house rules.

I would argue that quote doesn't affect the monk at all. Specific overrules general and that quote is referring to unarmed strikes in general, while the monk's unarmed strike explicitly states that it counts as a natural weapon thus exusing it from that general clause.

[olentu]

"A feat that requires natural weaponry as a prerequisite, such as Multiattack, doesn't work with unarmed strikes. Likewise, having a natural weapon is not a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. For example, you don't meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for the Deflect Arrows feat if you just have a natural weapon."

As equally 'canon' sources have been cited the only conclusion (as I already go with this) would be house rules.

Look if you are going to give weight to the rules of the game articles that is your choice but you should really you know actually go by what the whole article says instead of picking and choosing specific pieces that you like and then ignoring the rest.

[Hiro Protagonest]

"A feat that requires natural weaponry as a prerequisite, such as Multiattack, doesn't work with unarmed strikes. Likewise, having a natural weapon is not a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. For example, you don't meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for the Deflect Arrows feat if you just have a natural weapon."

As equally 'canon' sources have been cited the only conclusion (as I already go with this) would be house rules.

INA is explicitly the exception. Somewhere in the core book it says "specific beats general". This paragraph you quoted is to stop the cheese of getting 9x the attacks per round using MWF for a headbutt, two fists, two feet, two knees, and two elbows.

[MeeposFire]

I would argue that quote doesn't affect the monk at all. Specific overrules general and that quote is referring to unarmed strikes in general, while the monk's unarmed strike explicitly states that it counts as a natural weapon thus exusing it from that general clause.

Actually the monk allows the unarmed strike to count as manufactured. It counts as natural by default. Take a look at spells like magic fang and magic weapon in 3.5 and see how they treat it.

[Mooncrow]

"A feat that requires natural weaponry as a prerequisite, such as Multiattack, doesn't work with unarmed strikes. Likewise, having a natural weapon is not a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. For example, you don't meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for the Deflect Arrows feat if you just have a natural weapon."

As equally 'canon' sources have been cited the only conclusion (as I already go with this) would be house rules.

Seriously, read down a paragraph in that exact article:

"This allows a monk access to all manner of weapon enhancements for her unarmed strikes. For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage."

That's not a different canon source or anything, it's the exact same guy, in the exact same article.

[The Reverend]

This entire thread makes me sad. One of my most memorable 3.5 characters was a monk and routinely pulled the parties pants out of the fire. All without homebrew rules. Attacks of opportunity and sundering magical weapons all over the place

[Rubik]

This entire thread makes me sad. One of my most memorable 3.5 characters was a monk and routinely pulled the parties pants out of the fire. All without homebrew rules. Attacks of opportunity and sundering magical weapons all over the placeSounds like you might've been part of the problem. The party is way below WBL because you're destroying it all.

[tyckspoon]

All without homebrew rules. Attacks of opportunity and sundering magical weapons all over the place

What level, if you happen to remember? The only time I can think of a Monk having an easy time sundering anything, especially magic weapons (keeping in mind they get extra HP and Hardness for each plus of base enhancement bonus) would be if you took it all the way up to 16 for Ki Strike: Adamantine.. or blew more feats on that one Monk feat that lets you partially ignore object hardness, I guess, and you're still facing off against being at a disadvantage in the Sunder roll-off.

[Big Fau]

That's not a different canon source or anything, it's the exact same guy, in the exact same article.

Because WotC authors have never contradicted themselves within as little as 2 pages before.


Not that the Monk shouldn't have INA of US. Just saying that their editors weren't worth the salary for some of those books.

[Mooncrow]

Because WotC authors have never contradicted themselves within as little as 2 pages before.


Not that the Monk shouldn't have INA of US. Just saying that their editors weren't worth the salary for some of those books.

Actually, the argument in the article is that monk's unarmed strike is different, and does allow for those feats to be applied. It's not a contradiction at all. Now, whether it makes sense or not is another story, but the assertion was:


Feats that enhance Natural Weapons don't affect Unarmed Strike (even a monk's) despite "spells and effects" enhancing them
and

Not just Pathfinder. It's 3.5 too.
in reference to the same issue, using this article as the "proof".

And incorrect information just irks me :p

[Lycar]

Sounds like you might've been part of the problem. The party is way below WBL because you're destroying it all.

Uh what? If magic weapons get broken left and right the only effect this has is that the DM has to think of other ways to channel some gear the party's way.

The game assumes a certain level of gear for a party of a given level to be able to be adequately equipped for 'level appropriate' challenges.

Let us not go into how well that balance does or does not work.

Bottom line: The DM is expected to ensure that the party meets WBL requirements. If they break stuff or use many consumables, then either he shoves more stuff their way or tones down the encounters or starts a new campaign after the TPK.

Likewise, if people craft their own magic items, guess what? They find less loot so they don't overshoot.

If a player likes to break stuff in-game then the DM has to react to this. And the worst solution is to go and tell the player he isnÄt allowed to do so.

[CIDE]

I know what I already mentioned in my above post but I thought I'd ask anyway; Where is the list of variants for the Swordsage? Such as the one that allows them to trade in their armor pro. for the monk unarmed damage? And does that include the improved unarmed attack feat?

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I know what I already mentioned in my above post but I thought I'd ask anyway; Where is the list of variants for the Swordsage? Such as the one that allows them to trade in their armor pro. for the monk unarmed damage? And does that include the improved unarmed attack feat?
Adaptation section of the class.
It does include the feat.

[MeeposFire]

Adaptation section of the class.
It does include the feat.

Also realize that with the adaption section for both adaptions they are broad descriptions that you could do and so are not fully complete. For instance by silly RAW your unarmed swordsage requires light armor in order to get their wisdom bonus to AC and they are not proficient with armor (not that it is an issue since you could just wear an armor with no ACP but it still sounds weird).

[Dalek-K]

Pathfinder monk is pretty cool, and has a nifty little clause in their class write up that makes it a ton better than 3.5 monk

When using Flurry of Blows a monk uses his level to determine his BAB not his BAB.

So basically anytime you Flurry, you gain "Fighter" BAB :)

Also monks are great for Combat Maneuvers since they can grapple and still preform attacks

HEADBUTT SUNDER ATTACK

Yeah that pretty +2 circlet of wisdom isn't helping you now ;)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Pathfinder monk is pretty cool, and has a nifty little clause in their class write up that makes it a ton better than 3.5 monk

When using Flurry of Blows a monk uses his level to determine his BAB not his BAB.

So basically anytime you Flurry, you gain "Fighter" BAB :)
Yeah, but without fighter hit points, which are worth a halfway decent feat, or magic weapons and armor, or paladin flying mount, or paladin lay on hands, or paladin smite evil, or barbarian rage, or barbarian rage powers.

Also monks are great for Combat Maneuvers since they can grapple and still preform attacks

HEADBUTT SUNDER ATTACK

Yeah that pretty +2 circlet of wisdom isn't helping you now ;)

Magic items get extra hardness and HP. And how are you holding down a cleric or druid? And is it really worth it just to reduce the saving throw DCs of their spells by one?

[Dalek-K]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Concentration

The only spells you can cast are those without somatic components and those that you have the material focus on hand... That should limit casters. So even if you have a spell prepared that is Verbal but it requires a material focus that is in your material component pouch you can't cast it :)

And if you are casting a non somatic spell (with a material focus already in your hand) you have to make a concentration check.

Which brings us to how easy that is to make haha (those should add in account the grappler ability to grapple)

Though I find it funny,

Monk: Grapples cleric
Cleric: Uses COMMAND "Stop hugging me"
Monk: Sorry neighbor it is against my nature
For some reason I see Mr Rogers as a monk right now...

[Rubik]

Uh what? If magic weapons get broken left and right the only effect this has is that the DM has to think of other ways to channel some gear the party's way.

The game assumes a certain level of gear for a party of a given level to be able to be adequately equipped for 'level appropriate' challenges.

Let us not go into how well that balance does or does not work.

Bottom line: The DM is expected to ensure that the party meets WBL requirements. If they break stuff or use many consumables, then either he shoves more stuff their way or tones down the encounters or starts a new campaign after the TPK.

Likewise, if people craft their own magic items, guess what? They find less loot so they don't overshoot.

If a player likes to break stuff in-game then the DM has to react to this. And the worst solution is to go and tell the player he isnÄt allowed to do so.DMs aren't required to give out extra loot if you destroy it all, and sacrificing your own feats and XP to expand your gp doesn't mean that the DM is supposed to screw you because of it.

Unless you have a rules quote saying specifically that they are?

[Anarchy_Kanya]

WBL is a guideline, not a hard rule.

[Lycar]

DMs aren't required to give out extra loot if you destroy it all, and sacrificing your own feats and XP to expand your gp doesn't mean that the DM is supposed to screw you because of it.

Unless you have a rules quote saying specifically that they are?

... did you actually read what I wrote? :smallconfused:

Why not take a look at the DMG and, say, page 51: On average the 13 or so encounters a party needs on average to level up should also on average net them enough loot to meet WBL quotas.

It is explicitly stated that GMs have to A) adjust for some monsters having more valuable loot and some having none and B) allow for the expenditure of... expendables.

Let's go on with p. 199. It is mentioned that a GM can allow a spellcaster PC created at a higher starting level to use awarded gold and XP to start with crafted magic items, provided he has the prerequisite feats, thus giving him a head start in the game. So far so good.

But let us go back to p. 51: It also states that a GM should 'Monitor the progress of treasure into the hands of the PCs.' If the party either lags behind WBL or exceeds it, the GM is supposed to correct this.

In the case of the magic-creating wizard, this may mean a little less loot at the beginning until their head start has melted down. If the wizard has been an egoist, this may also mean adjusting loot to favour everybody but the wizard in question.

Now let us see how a party can lag behind in WBL, even if the DM carefully selects treasures that should keep them up to par:
A) Party can be especially generous with expendables
B) Party can miss out on loot by not finding it (never explored that side passage, didn't solve the riddle, didn't make it past the trap etc.)
C) Party can miss out on loot by destroying it (by failing to disable a trap or accidentally triggering it, alerting enemies to the PCs presence in a critical moment, sundering a foe's weapon).

See that? There is no functional difference between the party missing out on gold because they didn't find it, destroyed it or are just a bit too fond of expendables. The GM's job is to ensure that the party will find enough loot to meet WBL guidelines. Because it is those guidelines the game is supposedly balanced for.

[The Artist]

Do not know if this will be relevant any longer, but I know what the problem with the monk is: the players. A monk is like every other class in the fact that it can be shaped and specialized. The only "role" it has is as a striker. Someone with high mobility, decent hp, saves, and excellent full attack potential. This will take a little explaining so I will tell you what is happening in my current campaign.

There are 2 monks. I am one of them. We have two completely different builds but both at level 8. The other monk is dex/wis based and uses weapon finese and crane style to have ridiculously high ac, low hit points, great accuracy but even when he uses power attack his damage is sub-par (1d10+1str+6pa). My own monk uses str as a primary stat. When I power attack, I deal much better damage (1d10+6str+6pa). I have also recently taken dragon style and dragon ferocity, allowing me essentially str+1/2 to my unarmed strikes. Now my damage is (1d10+9str+6pa).

On the matter of that weapon enhancement, there is a tragic flaw. It makes your monk highly ineffective. You must start the game relying on your physical stats so that eventually you can enchance either a weapon or an Amulet of Natural attacks to make your str score a dump stat. So those points that's went into str were useless and poorly spent since the character would eventually not need them but must have then to contribute at all until receiving said enhancement.

The brass knuckles has a very simply explanation: DR penetration. A monk does his normal unarmed stride damage with brass knuckles but the real selling point is Silver/CI/Adamantine knuckles that deal better damage than any other weapon they have access to. Nearly all monk weapons deal 1d6+str with. 20x2 crit. Some monk weapons grant bonuses on certain combat maneuvers. The brass knuckles only allow you to bypass DR easier. Also it's more cost effective to enhance them as opposed to a Amulet of Natural attacks or permanent magic fang.

As monks do not have very much in the way of range, shuriken become an option meaning you now rely in str yet again. 1d2 is pathetic. My monk deals 1d2+6str+6DA) DA being deadly aim. See the damage happening yet?

A dex monk is the most common build used because everyone is willing to finesse and use str as a dump stat or at least keep it at 13 for PA. If str is your main stat, you accuracy improves, your damage can skyrocket, and you can laugh at all other npc monks cause those silly rabbits all fell for the same trick I'm trying to save you all from. Monks are actually great front line fighters. They simply require you treat them like a melee class.

[ericgrau]

Use a weapon, focus strength. Especially at level 10-11.

[agentnone]

Do not know if this will be relevant any longer...(cut for length)

It's not relevant anymore. She made a Zen Archer archetype from the APG and was pretty much out damaging the rest of the party about 50% of the time. So it made her character on par with everyone else in the group. Though your post (as well as everyone elses posts on this thread) has given me a great deal of insight (and ideas as enemy NPC monks) to utilize.

[The Artist]

Glad to help

[Lord_Gareth]

Do not know if this will be relevant any longer, but I know what the problem with the monk is: the players. A monk is like every other class in the fact that it can be shaped and specialized. The only "role" it has is as a striker. Someone with high mobility, decent hp, saves, and excellent full attack potential. This will take a little explaining so I will tell you what is happening in my current campaign.

Welcome to Giantitp, Artist! I'm Lord_Gareth, and I've been playing 3.5 since about when it came out (having skipped over 3.0 entirely). I'm going to address your points now, but before I do, I'm going to mention something that you're going to hear around here a lot: anecdotes are not evidence. More about that later.


There are 2 monks. I am one of them. We have two completely different builds but both at level 8. The other monk is dex/wis based and uses weapon finesse and crane style to have ridiculously high ac, low hit points, great accuracy but even when he uses power attack his damage is sub-par (1d10+1str+6pa). My own monk uses str as a primary stat. When I power attack, I deal much better damage (1d10+6str+6pa). I have also recently taken dragon style and dragon ferocity, allowing me essentially str+1/2 to my unarmed strikes. Now my damage is (1d10+9str+6pa).

I'm guessing that you're power attacking for full, since you're getting +6 Power Attack damage on unarmed strike attacks. What, precisely, is your to-hit modifier on most of these attacks? +6 at your highest modifiers? +8 with Flurry?

Additionally, I'd like to point out at this stage that someone with, say, a greatsword and just the power attack feat (a fighter, say) rolls 2d6 + (1.5 x Str mod) + (Power Attack) damage, putting their damage higher than yours natively and with the investment of only one option (selecting the Power Attack) feat. This kind of advantage relates to another term you'll see around here a lot - Opportunity Cost. Opportunity Cost is a loose measure of how much you're giving up in order to attain a certain goal, effect, or capability. For example, the Fighter gave up a single feat (by filling its slot with Power Attack) in order to get melee damage, whereas you've given up three feats (or one feat and two class features - not entirely familiar where those dragon abilities came from), which indicates that the Fighter's approach came up ahead.

You can see this with other examples as well: for example, a fighter needs to spend lots and lots of gold to get haste (such as through the Speed enhancement) whereas a wizard or bard must only spend a single spell - their cost is cheaper and, thus, better.


On the matter of that weapon enhancement, there is a tragic flaw. It makes your monk highly ineffective. You must start the game relying on your physical stats so that eventually you can enchance either a weapon or an Amulet of Natural attacks to make your str score a dump stat. So those points that's went into str were useless and poorly spent since the character would eventually not need them but must have then to contribute at all until receiving said enhancement.

This line of reasoning is misguided; everyone (astoundingly enough, even wizards) finds some use out of weapon enhancements. Now, it is true that it's better not to spend money on additional enhancements on to-hit and damage (the "+" part of the weapon) because it's easier and, actually, cheaper to either acquire these through buffs from friendly party members or items such as potions or scrolls. However, enhancements that add utility or new kinds of damage to your attack routine (like Frost) are invaluable and very desirous because they not only increase your raw damage, but help bypass the high damage reduction you'll see at higher levels.


The brass knuckles has a very simply explanation: DR penetration. A monk does his normal unarmed stride damage with brass knuckles but the real selling point is Silver/CI/Adamantine knuckles that deal better damage than any other weapon they have access to. Nearly all monk weapons deal 1d6+str with. 20x2 crit. Some monk weapons grant bonuses on certain combat maneuvers. The brass knuckles only allow you to bypass DR easier. Also it's more cost effective to enhance them as opposed to a Amulet of Natural attacks or permanent magic fang.

This is actually a really good line of reasoning - keep access to the class features you like while also having a platform for your enhancements and for DR penetration - definitely not bad, in and of itself. It still kinda runs into the problem where if you were playing, say, a Rogue instead you could be using short swords (same base damage, but with a higher crit modifier), or if you were a fighter, cleric, or druid your base melee damage would be even higher with a comparable or superior crit modifier. We discussed above how even a fighter is natively doing higher damage; you can boost that even further by playing, say, a barbarian instead, or by using self-buffs from the Cleric spell list to go toe-to-toe with superb magical defenses and enhanced modifiers both to your attributes and your weapons. But your basic instinct on the matter was a good one.


As monks do not have very much in the way of range, shuriken become an option meaning you now rely in str yet again. 1d2 is pathetic. My monk deals 1d2+6str+6DA) DA being deadly aim. See the damage happening yet?

Ranged attack capability isn't something the Monk generally has, no. However, shurikens do make good platforms to hold beneficial, always-on weapon enhancements. Ranged attack capability is one of the Monk's many glaring flaws, and by no means the largest one, though it gets larger and larger starting at level eight (when the Erinyes appears) and onward.


A dex monk is the most common build used because everyone is willing to finesse and use str as a dump stat or at least keep it at 13 for PA. If str is your main stat, you accuracy improves, your damage can skyrocket, and you can laugh at all other npc monks cause those silly rabbits all fell for the same trick I'm trying to save you all from. Monks are actually great front line fighters. They simply require you treat them like a melee class.

Sadly, treating them like a front-line melee class causes them to die, rather than fight, in the shade. They can't really 'tank' - their hit points are too low, and their lack of armor means that they've got to fight tooth and nail to increase their armor class. They have no native access to non-armor class defenses such as concealment, miss chances, damage reduction, and the like. Using their Flurry requires that they ignore their high mobility; using any of their other class features requires that they not Flurry. Even if the enemy is polite enough to hold still and let you Flurry at them, your individual strikes are very low-damage and low-accuracy, meaning enemies with high armor class, medium damage reduction, or both will shut down your primary damage-dealing strategy - and, again, both of these things only become more common as you level up.

Add to this the Monk's lack of out-of-combat utility or even skill selection and you can see why folks don't particularly like them and consider them sub-par for representing their concept(s).

Thanks for reading, and I hope my explanation(s) helped ^_^

[agentnone]

Since this thread kind of got reactivated, I'll go ahead and ask this now as I've seen it posted here a few times and have no idea what it means. MAD. What is it? Thanks.

[Mystic Muse]

Since this thread kind of got reactivated, I'll go ahead and ask this now as I've seen it posted here a few times and have no idea what it means. MAD. What is it? Thanks.

Multiple ability Dependency. As in, a Monk is reliant on far more stats than it should be.

SAD is Single ability dependency.

The optimum number of Stats to be reliant on is 3 for a relatively balanced class. Any more, and it's often weakened, any less and you get things like wizards. Though, there is the Warlock who, IIRC, is dependent on no abilities for the most part.

[Malacode]

Multiple Attribute/Ability Dependancy. Usually seen a -lot- in monk threads. It means that the class needs high scores in many abilities (Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Int Cha). In this case, people are referring to the monks' needing high Str, Dex, Con and Wis to match the offensive and defensive capabilities of a reasonably built Fighter

Edit: Swordsage'd. And yeah, Warlock is sweet without any abilities being that good, but I always love to do an Int based warlock who doesn't blast and uses the 24 hour buffs. Skillmonkey!.

[Benly]

Sadly, treating them like a front-line melee class causes them to die, rather than fight, in the shade. They can't really 'tank' - their hit points are too low, and their lack of armor means that they've got to fight tooth and nail to increase their armor class.

This is only half true on the armor class front. A monk has to spend more resources than most classes to get a given armor class up to a certain point due to the lack of armor, but they actually have a somewhat easier time getting a very high armor class once you're in the "only getting here with high-end magic items" range of AC. The problem is that (a) doing so means you've focused enough resources on your AC that you're not addressing the monk's other needs and (b) by the time you reach that point, non-AC defenses are becoming more and more important.


Only tangentially related, one pseudo-tank monk idea I'm going to be screwing around with is a tetori with reach - since tetori get Grab and can make AoOs while grappling, anyone who tries to pass through the reach zone gets pulled into the grappler pileup. The hard part is getting reach on a tetori in the first place, of course, and the solution I'm using isn't available in most games, but it's a fun idea.

[Vaynor]

The Red Towel: Closed for thread necromancy.