Warmages and ToB [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Little Brother

2011-11-05, 02:42 AM

Okay, I have been challenged with this new character: In a game of ToBs at level 3 and going high, the DM said a Warmage couldn't keep up. I really, really like the class, so it is my desire to prove him wrong.

So, the issue is I know how to build a low level warmage, and a high-level Warmage, but not one to go low-high. So, I would like help.

Current build I am looking at:

(Maybe Silverbrow) Human Warmage 3/4(Not sure)
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12 ,Cha 16(Maybe switch Str and Wis, or put the 2 from wis into Con)

Feats:Versatile Caster, (Fell Drain or Bloodline feat)
3rd: Skill Focus(Knowledge Religion?)

Grab Charm Person with Eclectic Learing(By my reading, Versatile Spellcaster would qualify me)

Progression would look like Warmage 5/Mindbender 1/Divine Oracle 1/????(No idea where to go from here. NOTE:Not going for Rainbow Servant)

Ideas? Thoughts? Does the Oracle Domain qualify me for having Divine Spells, or do I need Southern Magician?

Thanks

EDIT: Derped on spontaneous casters sucking at metamagic.

Darth_Versity

2011-11-05, 04:12 AM

Get a bloodline feat to add a new spell of each level to your list. Few feats give as much reward for casters with limited lists.

Little Brother

2011-11-05, 04:17 AM

Get a bloodline feat to add a new spell of each level to your list. Few feats give as much reward for casters with limited lists.Which bloodlines are good? Are you allowed to take more than one?

Anarchic looks delicious, but are there any better ones?

Keld Denar

2011-11-05, 04:27 AM

Little Brother

2011-11-05, 04:32 AM

Nearly all of your spells are blasty. You'll thusly get a lot of mileage out of Fell Draining from Libris Mortis. Tacking a negative level on everything you touch is handy. For a while, it'll cost you your move action to add it spontaneously, but later in life you can pick up the Rapid Metamagic feat from Complete Arcane to reclaim it. Casting a Fell Draining Magic Missile and hitting 5 different foes for 1 negative level each is fun.Oooh, I like. Will try. Would Easy Metamagic and stuff be worth bothering picking up? Or is Silverbrow not worth bothering with?

And, if I go bloodlines, Anarchic, Prenumbra, Earth, and Serpentine all look tasty. I think the first two look best, but are any/all of these worth the feats?

Thanks, guys.

Darth_Versity

2011-11-05, 04:47 AM

Oooh, I like. Will try. Would Easy Metamagic and stuff be worth bothering picking up? Or is Silverbrow not worth bothering with?

And, if I go bloodlines, Anarchic, Prenumbra, Earth, and Serpentine all look tasty. I think the first two look best, but are any/all of these worth the feats?

Thanks, guys.

You can only have one bloodline unfortunatly :smallfrown: but from them I would have Penumbra, but then thats a personal choice as that is my favourite bloodline for both fluff and spells.

Morph Bark

2011-11-05, 04:55 AM

Residual Magic from Complete Mage is delicious for you. Tactical feat that does among two things do this:

Lingering Metamagic: If you cast a spell affected by one or more metamagic feats, and then cast the same spell in the next round, you can apply any one of the metamagic effects from the first casting to the second casting, but without any change to the spell's level. The second spell doesn't count as being affected by a metamagic feat for the purpose of this benefit (that is, it doesn't entitle you to apply the metamagic feat to a spell you might cast in the following round). Only spells you cast using your own metamagic feats (as opposed to metamagic effects from magic items) allow this option to function. For example, if Hennet uses a 5th-level slot to cast an empowered lightning bolt, in the next round he can use a 3rdlevel slot to cast another empowered lightning bolt. If the first spell was a silent empowered lightning bolt, he could apply the effect of either Silent Spell or Empower Spell to the second casting of lightning bolt, but not both.

Combine that with a way to make the cost cheap (Arcane Thesis?) and yum ensues.

If you can find a way to get Heroics on your spell list you can also take some ToB maneuvers as well through getting Martial Study.

PrCs that add to your spell list will of course be awesome. Sandshaper for instance (one level needed). Rainbow Servant is cheesy, so he may counter that or end up saying "you were playing a Cleric anyway".

Little Brother

2011-11-05, 05:08 AM

You can only have one bloodline unfortunatly :smallfrown: but from them I would have Penumbra, but then thats a personal choice as that is my favourite bloodline for both fluff and spells.Anarchic is pretty tasty with Tasha's Laughter and Color Spray, but Prenumbra has Shadow Evocation. Hmmmm.

Residual Magic from Complete Mage is delicious for you. Tactical feat that does among two things do this:

Lingering Metamagic: If you cast a spell affected by one or more metamagic feats, and then cast the same spell in the next round, you can apply any one of the metamagic effects from the first casting to the second casting, but without any change to the spell's level. The second spell doesn't count as being affected by a metamagic feat for the purpose of this benefit (that is, it doesn't entitle you to apply the metamagic feat to a spell you might cast in the following round). Only spells you cast using your own metamagic feats (as opposed to metamagic effects from magic items) allow this option to function. For example, if Hennet uses a 5th-level slot to cast an empowered lightning bolt, in the next round he can use a 3rdlevel slot to cast another empowered lightning bolt. If the first spell was a silent empowered lightning bolt, he could apply the effect of either Silent Spell or Empower Spell to the second casting of lightning bolt, but not both.

Combine that with a way to make the cost cheap (Arcane Thesis?) and yum ensues.

If you can find a way to get Heroics on your spell list you can also take some ToB maneuvers as well through getting Martial Study.

PrCs that add to your spell list will of course be awesome. Sandshaper for instance (one level needed). Rainbow Servant is cheesy, so he may counter that or end up saying "you were playing a Cleric anyway".I like the feat. Fell Drain+Magic Missile? Yum.

And, yeah, nothing stupid like the Rainbow Servant cheese. I want to do awesome with a warmage, not a cleric.

How can I get bonus feats? Do you guys think Mindbender and Mindsight are worth it? What about Versatile Caster? I feel pretty feat-starved.

And does Magic Missile+Fell Drain, with 2 missiles, do 2 negative levels to one target, or just one to two targets?

marcielle

2011-11-05, 05:14 AM

If you get into Rainbow Servant, you can apparently increase your list several fold. This only works at higher levels obviously but it's something to aim towards. There was a feat you can get to gain access to domain spell. Aside from expanding your list, it's one of the things you need to get into Rainbow Servant.

And don't worry about it. With clever use of PrCs, even a Truenamer can become viable.

Darth_Versity

2011-11-05, 06:16 AM

Anarchic is pretty tasty with Tasha's Laughter and Color Spray, but Prenumbra has Shadow Evocation. Hmmmm.

But you have most evocation spells already. Thats the problem with warmage. Shadow evocation is great for a sorcerer/beguiler/dread necro but probably wasted on you. I take it back, forget penumbra, go with anarchic.

How can I get bonus feats? Do you guys think Mindbender and Mindsight are worth it? What about Versatile Caster? I feel pretty feat-starved.

I'm currently playing a beguiler with mindbender and mindsight and it is so handy. I don't need any spot/listen ranks as I already know whose around me. Its def a good way to go.

For extra feats, human is always good, but I also like hellbred, but your limited to devil touched feats and the INT hit isn't nice. The extra CON is welcome though.

Lans

2011-11-05, 06:29 AM

Kobold with one of the sovereign host archtypes from Dragons of Eberron does the same thing, only from level 1.

Darrin

2011-11-05, 06:29 AM

And, if I go bloodlines, Anarchic, Prenumbra, Earth, and Serpentine all look tasty. I think the first two look best, but are any/all of these worth the feats?

I rated them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5076244&postcount=30) a while ago, but it wasn't exactly from empirical evidence.

I still like Anarchic and Earth, and it's probably worth noting that if you take Necromantic and then Kin Mastery, you get turn undead 1/day. Throw on 10 levels of Rainbow Servant (text says they're 10/10 casters, although still some debate about this) and a little Divine Metamagic for your divine spells (anything that doesn't also appear on the Sor/Wiz list is divine), and "limited spell list" is probably not going to be much of a concern.

sirpercival

2011-11-05, 06:50 AM

The War Mage prestige class from Age of Mortals is pretty good for a blasty mage, and of course Reserves of Strength from DLCS is where it's at. I wonder whether a UM build is right for you?

Darth_Versity

2011-11-05, 07:19 AM

I think rainbow servant and ultimate magus might be defeating the point of proving that a warmage can keep up. Adding full cleric/wizard casting is like proving how great the monk is with only 1 lvl of monk!

Some eternal wands will really help keep up the versatility as any arcane caster can use them. Identify, Heroics, Enlarge/Reduce person. All are good options. There are plenty of low level spells that can help out and at 820gp for a 1st level wand you can start getting them really early.

Darrin

2011-11-05, 07:46 AM

I think rainbow servant and ultimate magus might be defeating the point of proving that a warmage can keep up.

Good point. Has the Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer&post_num=4) been adapted to Warmage yet? Then again, adding Incantatrix would be the same problem... that's not exactly winning with Warmage.

Wavelab

2011-11-05, 08:08 AM

Well there is a feat that allows you to change your casting stat(Dragon mag or somewhere). Taking it to allow you to use intelligence to cast will buff your warmage's edge greatly.

Darth_Versity

2011-11-05, 09:35 AM

Well there is a feat that allows you to change your casting stat(Dragon mag or somewhere). Taking it to allow you to use intelligence to cast will buff your warmage's edge greatly.

Thats a new one to me. Anyone know what this is as I'm sure I could apply it to several of the builds that float around inside my head!

The Dark Fiddler

2011-11-05, 09:39 AM

Wavelab

2011-11-05, 11:00 AM

I've never seen a feat that does this that wasn't 3rd party.

Yeah I think it's 3rd party/dragon mag. It was called "Lost Traditions" I think. I'm currently using it for a wiz/sorc gestalt.

Psyren

2011-11-05, 11:35 AM

You really need spells that don't just blast; Rainbow Servant isn't the only way to do that. PrC into Exalted Arcanist or Sandshaper to add a lot of utility to your list.

Zaq

2011-11-05, 11:38 AM

And don't worry about it. With clever use of PrCs, even a Truenamer can become viable.

A Truenamer can be made kinda-sorta viable, but PrCs aren't the way to do it. No PrC (except Uncanny Trickster, which doesn't count) makes you better at Truenaming. (A couple have dips that are worthwhile in certain builds, but still, not really.)

Psyren

2011-11-05, 11:45 AM

Silver Pyromancer should give you all paladin spells as arcane spells too - the problem of course is that they specifically disallowed Warmage from learning them :smallannoyed: Bollocks to that I say, tell your DM how bloody weak Warmage is and ask him to ignore that line.

SP goes great thematically with EA too (just throw in a Sacred Exorcist dip for TU and you'll still get 9ths.)

sirpercival

2011-11-05, 12:19 PM

The problem with Warmage is that blasting isn't as versatile (or effective, really) as other tactics, but it's basically the only thing the Warmage does. So the reason PrCs like Rainbow Servant and Sand Shaper are used is to expand the available options in terms of tactics.

But anyway, the reason I suggested Ultimate Magus was for CL shenanigans, which can help any blaster and not just a warmage.

Little Brother

2011-11-05, 01:43 PM

I think rainbow servant and ultimate magus might be defeating the point of proving that a warmage can keep up. Adding full cleric/wizard casting is like proving how great the monk is with only 1 lvl of monk!Guys, this. I know warmages are weak, that's part of the point. I want to play a warmage, not a spontaneous wizard/cleric.

Some eternal wands will really help keep up the versatility as any arcane caster can use them. Identify, Heroics, Enlarge/Reduce person. All are good options. There are plenty of low level spells that can help out and at 820gp for a 1st level wand you can start getting them really early.Oooh... I like...

I rated them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5076244&postcount=30) a while ago, but it wasn't exactly from empirical evidence. Thanks, Darin! That's awesome.

Definitely going with Anarchic.

SP goes great thematically with EA too (just throw in a Sacred Exorcist dip for TU and you'll still get 9ths.)EA? What?

The problem with Warmage is that blasting isn't as versatile (or effective, really) as other tactics, but it's basically the only thing the Warmage does. So the reason PrCs like Rainbow Servant and Sand Shaper are used is to expand the available options in terms of tactics.

But anyway, the reason I suggested Ultimate Magus was for CL shenanigans, which can help any blaster and not just a warmage.Remember, that's one of the reasons for this challenge.

So, does Versatile Spellcaster give me Charm at 3rd level, or should I go to PWP?

What are good PrCs? What should my feat progression look like?

wayfare

2011-11-05, 02:04 PM

This is a bit less hi-op than most of the suggestions here, but a reserve feat or two might be helpful in case you are worried about keeping up with those pesky refreshable maneuvers -- just keep an acid arrow or a fireball uncast and you will have blasting ability all day long, roughly on par with ToB damaging maneuvers.

Reserve feats are really great for Spontaneous casters. You might even be able to talk your DM into allowing your edge to apply to reserve feats.

Midnight_v

2011-11-05, 02:32 PM

Good point. Has the Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer&post_num=4) been adapted to Warmage yet? Then again, adding Incantatrix would be the same problem... that's not exactly winning with Warmage.

Honestly, though warmage is 5 levels long, and then you prc. Thats just GOING to happen. The tough part is getting to through those levels. He's already level 4 right?
I think a simple thing would be to use "Combust" 1d8/level "no save" + and then a save vs Catching fire.
Take:
Blood Line of fire
Fiery Burst Reserve feat. For +3 CL Fire spells.
Now combust has a range of touch but you'll also know scorching ray, Cl 7 for 2 x 4d6 rays
You might at somepoint take occular spell
Occular Spell: you cast 2 spells as a full round action via eyebeam. . . changes the range to touch.
Its a huge full missle volley, but you'll need a metamagic reducer of somekind, as it takes a slot 2 higher, the thing is you fire both eyes at the same time so you can get pretty good mileage with that.
Even just combusting people no save for 7d8 is pretty decent at level 4, though. . .
The art of the war mage class, however, is in its prestige...

Cespenar

2011-11-05, 02:36 PM

Residual Magic and the Sudden Metamagic line could be a nice little combo too, emphasis on little. Since they won't increase the spell levels.

Urpriest

2011-11-05, 02:38 PM

Ideas? Thoughts? Does the Oracle Domain qualify me for having Divine Spells, or do I need Southern Magician?

Since this hasn't been answered: domains given to arcane casters by PrCs give you arcane spells.

Little Brother

2011-11-05, 02:43 PM

Since this hasn't been answered: domains given to arcane casters by PrCs give you arcane spells.Oh, okay. Thanks.

I'm not feeling so good on the reserve feats, I have plenty of slots. Issue is I am incredibly feat-tight. Does Versatile Caster work like I think? Should I just forget it? Which Metamagics are worth it? How can I get bonus feats?

Thanks.

Midnight_v

2011-11-05, 03:04 PM

Oh, okay. Thanks.

I'm not feeling so good on the reserve feats, I have plenty of slots. Issue is I am incredibly feat-tight. Does Versatile Caster work like I think? Should I just forget it? Which Metamagics are worth it? How can I get bonus feats?

Thanks.
Wait... I hope you didn't miss all that. Sigh. I suck at brevity.
The real benefit of a reserve feat is that it raises your caster level by 1. Then raising your caster level w/blood line of fire gives you 2 more.
+3 caster level.
Occular Spell is a metamagic. Though I can totally understand pushing yourself towards mindbender.
I don't see any reason why you WOULDN'T qualify once charm is on your list, and from what I see you saying, yese that is how V.spellcaster works.

...Hmm... another thing you might consider (as I'm trying to help via building up combat tricks, to actually make you KEEP UP, with the tob guys.
Is to do a "Mr.Scary Warmage"
You take Dreadful Wrath, and Fell Frighten, so when you zap people you get an automatic fear effect.
Also I think your last prc should be incantrix.

Gnaeus

2011-11-05, 03:36 PM

Sception

2011-11-05, 04:07 PM

Yeah, I was about to suggest arcane disciple as well. It's the bog standard go-to choice for the theme casters. More then one dread necro I've run over the years has gotten some mileadge out of the time (haste! foresight! timestop!) or travel (teleport! Gate!) or trickery (POO! Timestop again!) domains. Just look for domains with good utility spells that don't allow saves, start with a 13 wis, and make sure to grab a +6 item by the time you can cast 9th level spells.

In general, taking your situation in the broader sense, you should work pretty fine with ToBers to begin with. ToBers are amazing for muggles (not surprising, since they basically use a variant magic system), but as cool as they look when you hold them next to a fighter, when you hold them next to a wizard instead you suddenly realize that like the warmage they basically just do hit point damage. They'll do more then you, and won't run out of powers in a given day, but they're also mostly single target melee based, and will appreciate the area damage and reach you bring to the party. In the end a warmage fits right in with a group of Warblades & their ilk. Grab a couple bloodlines, disciple feats, or PrCs that diversify your casting a bit (I like divine oracle), and you'll do fine.

Elfstone

2011-11-05, 04:21 PM

I assume homebrew is out of the question?

Little Brother

2011-11-05, 05:30 PM

I would also consider taking Arcane Disciple and getting a + wisdom item. Travel domain, to give only one example, adds a lot of joy to your list. Get around the 1 casting per day restriction with wands/scrolls.

Yeah, I was about to suggest arcane disciple as well. It's the bog standard go-to choice for the theme casters. More then one dread necro I've run over the years has gotten some mileadge out of the time (haste! foresight! timestop!) or travel (teleport! Gate!) or trickery (POO! Timestop again!) domains. Just look for domains with good utility spells that don't allow saves, start with a 13 wis, and make sure to grab a +6 item by the time you can cast 9th level spells.Not sure it'll fly, but I can try. Domains?

In general, taking your situation in the broader sense, you should work pretty fine with ToBers to begin with. ToBers are amazing for muggles (not surprising, since they basically use a variant magic system), but as cool as they look when you hold them next to a fighter, when you hold them next to a wizard instead you suddenly realize that like the warmage they basically just do hit point damage. They'll do more then you, and won't run out of powers in a given day, but they're also mostly single target melee based, and will appreciate the area damage and reach you bring to the party. In the end a warmage fits right in with a group of Warblades & their ilk. Grab a couple bloodlines, disciple feats, or PrCs that diversify your casting a bit (I like divine oracle), and you'll do fine.Hmmm, okay...

I assume homebrew is out of the question?Yep.

So, what're some other good prestige classes?

Psyren

2011-11-05, 05:39 PM

So, what're some other good prestige classes?

Did you look at EA and Sandshaper yet?

EA? What?

Exalted Arcanist. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b) It adds some nice spells to your repetoire and the metamagic makes your blasting much more useful. (By being able to exempt good-allied creatures, you can nuke the battlefield without hurting anyone, and turning half your damage sacred makes you more effective vs. resistances and immunities.) Since blasting is a Warmage's schtick, you should be interested in both of these.

You have to be goody-goody though.

Sandshaper gives you fantastic benefits and a ton more spells as well.

deuxhero

2011-11-05, 05:45 PM

Don't forget Belt of the Wide Earth from MIC (Think that was the name) which doubles your carrying capacity and lets you cast teleport from your slots a limited number of times a day, explicitly even if they aren't on your list. The other two items in the set let you cast Fireball and MM from your slots as their main feature, so they aren't as useful for Warmages as other focused casters.

Eternal Wands are a good way to add extra utility, as you don't need the spell on your list, just arcane casterness.

I forget if Warmages had UMD like DN and Beguiler, but if you do, Runestaffs are also neat.

Little Brother

2011-11-05, 05:45 PM

Did you look at EA and Sandshaper yet?

Exalted Arcanist. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b) It adds some nice spells to your repetoire and the metamagic makes your blasting much more useful. (By being able to exempt good-allied creatures, you can nuke the battlefield without hurting anyone, and turning half your damage sacred makes you more effective vs. resistances and immunities.) Since blasting is a Warmage's schtick, you should be interested in both of these.

You have to be goody-goody though.

Sandshaper gives you fantastic benefits and a ton more spells as well.EA isn't gonna work. Everyone in my group(Me included) have a pathological aversion to Exalted and BOEC.

AFB, what's up with this sandshaper?

Psyren

2011-11-05, 06:08 PM

AFB, what's up with this sandshaper?

It's in Sandstorm. You'll probably want a Ruathar or Ranger dip for the skills, or you can simply wait a couple more levels.

Endarire

2011-11-05, 06:09 PM

What about the Rainbow Warsnake?

That's a Halfling or Human Warmage1/Rainbow Servant10 (Complete Divine)/Sacred Exorcist1/Contemplative1 (Complete Divine)/War Weaver5 (Heroes of Battle). (Other variants exist.)

1: {Aggressive}, {Noncombatant}, {Vulnerable}
1: Improved Initiative, Heighten Spell, Metamagic School Focus: Evocation, Spell Focus: Evocation
3: Fell Drain
6: -=FEAT=-
9: Enlarge Spell
12: Divine Metamagic: Chosen Metamagic Feat

Remember, Rainbow Servant's text (10/10 casting) trumps its table (6/10 casting) by RAW.

Little Brother

2011-11-05, 06:36 PM

I have said several times: NO RAINBOW SERVANT! Nothing like that! This is supposed to be a Warmage at the end, not a spontaneous cleric. That is not the purpose.

That said, what does the sandshaper do? Ruathar? Is that a 3.0 class? What book?

Metahuman1

2011-11-05, 06:51 PM

If your feat starved I'd look at getting some Flaws. Non-combatant and vulnerable would be my go too one's for this.

-2 to melee attacks and -1 to AC for 2 feats on a caster build.

Midnight_v

2011-11-05, 06:53 PM

Incantix, Initiate of the Seven-fold-veil, hmm... what was it, guild mage? Fiendblooded, and dread witch, but you came down with some strong ones too.

Psyren

2011-11-05, 07:28 PM

That said, what does the sandshaper do? Ruathar? Is that a 3.0 class? What book?

It's sort of a desert mage. Ruathar is a 3/3 casting class from Races of the Wild with very easy qualifications, that typically gives you nature-y skills without losing casting progression. Specifically, it gives you the Know (Nature) and Survival that you'll need for Sandshaper, though the ranks are low so you can just skip it.

Mato

2011-11-05, 08:23 PM

Play as a Lesser Half-Giant, go Primordial. Dip Prestigious Bard, you instantly gain all unique Bard spells on your spell list, which as a Warmage means you can spontaneously cast any of them. Remember to use the Eclectic Learning AFC out of the PHBII to learn other useful spells too (like animate dead).

Using Residual Metamagic, or just plain Incantatrix, Persist the Bardic spells Snowsong & Nixie's Grace. UMD a Wand of Righteous Aura. Pick your poison for obtaining Devil's Ego and Persist that as well. This will give you a +8 enhancement, +4 moral, +4 sacred, and +4 profane bonuses to Charisma. Then ask your DM for his take on the Horseshoes of Flame, you may end up with another +6 more. As an Old Primordial Lesser Half-Giant with a Faustian Pact & Worm of Minos your Charisma with the above should come out to 62 or so, a +26 modifier.

dextercorvia

2011-11-05, 08:48 PM

jaybird

2011-11-05, 10:35 PM

The hell with that, embrace your Warmage-ness. Pick a low-level blast spell, I suggest Fireball for reasons you will soon see. These are the feats you want for it: Arcane Thesis, Fiery Spell, Searing Spell, Scorching Spell, Empower Spell, Easy Metamagic Empower, Intensify Spell (the Pathfinder feat that puts the level cap to 15). Maximize and Easy Metamagic Maximize if you can manage. Other good feats you want are Elemental Spellcasting Fire, Spell Perfection, Spell Specialization, and Persistent Spell (the one that makes enemies save twice take the lowest). Twin, Repeat, and Quicken are all great Metamagics, but it's debatable whether you'll be able to swing them effectively due to their +4 adjustment. Pick up the War Mage PrC as soon as you can and progress all 5 levels in it, it gives you extra Metamagics and a Cha-based aura buff, as well as extra damage per dice, to the tune of +3 per dice by War Mage 5.

Why Fireball? Fiery Spell and Scorching Spell give +1 and +3 damage per dice respectively, and only work on Fire spells. Searing Spell makes that spell ignore Fire resistance and deal half damage to Fire immune enemies. With Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic Empower, you can fire a Fiery Searing Scorching Empowered Intensified Fireball for a net +1 to its level, and with War Mage 5, dish out an extra 7 points of pain for each dice you roll, including the Empower dice. Same trick works for Scorching Ray, if you want to be a Front End Blaster instead of Back End Blaster. Front End Blasters want extra to-hit for ranged touch, Back End Blasters want extra CL for save DCs.

dextercorvia

2011-11-05, 10:41 PM

Back End Blasters want extra CL for save DCs.

CL does not affect save DC's.

jaybird

2011-11-05, 10:43 PM

CL does not affect save DC's.

Whoops, I was thinking stuff like Spell Focus and somehow translated that to CL. Yes, you just want to improve your save DCs. Might I recommend a +4 Cha headband?

Mato

2011-11-05, 11:27 PM

Prestige Bard is going to take quite a lot of doing to get the skills etc. necessary. Once you finally get their, you are Beguiler's idiot cousin.You can make it into the PrC Bard by 6th level as a Warmage by spending a feat for it and the Beguiler > Warmage/PrC-Bard Dip comment is just... Bad. >.>

The hell with that, embrace your Warmage-ness.Snowcast Energy Admixture(electricity) Reserves of Strength Scorching Ray from a Stormcaster/Warmage inside a Cold Snap Caustic Mire Raging Flame would deal 16d6+(6/die) electricity, 16d6+(8/die) fire, +3 sonic, and Fort vs Stun. Average 339 damage plus the Warmage Edge. Not an omg amount, but it can be split up between four targets and all of them still have to face the save vs Stun and we can look forward to Twin/Repeat. Even Fusion via Runestaff. :)

Psyren

2011-11-06, 10:17 AM

CL does not affect save DC's.

It does (indirectly) for psionics, which is one reason I love that system so much more :smallsmile:

gbprime

2011-11-06, 01:39 PM

You really need spells that don't just blast

See, there's the fallacy again. You really don't. A warmage is a combat cannon, so why spend your build making him into some other kind of caster? If you're going to be a warmage, BE a warmage. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being tier 4 if you're awesome at it.

Spend your 3rd level learning on Eclectic Learning and pick up Message as a 0 level spell. This plus either eschew materials or still spell qualifies you for Dracolexi. By taking THAT class, you get spells such as suggestion, geas, and power word spells added to your list, plus the ability to provide temp hp, remove fatigue, extend all your spells for free, and at 10th level empower any fire spell you cast for free.

Along the way, pick up 2 levels of sanctified one of Kord and take the ability that makes your fire spells do untyped damage.

So at 20th level, you're an 18th level caster and all your fire spells are untyped damage and empowered. Cannon. Pure and simple.

Nich_Critic

2011-11-06, 02:09 PM

A friend of mine had a neat build based on the warmage and the stars of avander spell from BoED. He took warmage and argent savant. That gave him warmages edge (int to damage on each star), +1 from argent savant. He would then cast several empowered stars. In the first round, he would cast the spell and shoot one star, the second round, two stars, and so on and so forth. In situations where he had time to prepare, he could do it in reverse (have a lot of the spell precasted) to release many stars at once (since it's a free action, once per round per cast). It's a bit of a one trick pony, and being surprised hurts it a lot (it becomes much better the more spells it casts), but the damage gets kind of scary.

Morph Bark

2011-11-06, 02:20 PM

Spend your 3rd level learning on Eclectic Learning and pick up Message as a 0 level spell.

Impossible. Eclectic Learning allows you to learn non-Evocation spells, yes, but you learn them as if they were a level higher than normal.

gbprime

2011-11-06, 03:25 PM

Impossible. Eclectic Learning allows you to learn non-Evocation spells, yes, but you learn them as if they were a level higher than normal.

Mistyped. Meant to say Message as a 1 level spell. The point is, you need a language based spell, and Message fils the bill.

Psyren

2011-11-06, 04:53 PM

See, there's the fallacy again. You really don't.

By taking THAT class, you get spells such as suggestion, geas, and power word spells added to your list, plus the ability to provide temp hp, remove fatigue

Cannon. Pure and simple.

lolwut? :smallconfused:

hex0

2011-11-06, 05:04 PM

Joke Suggestion: Take Merchant Prince and then Ultimate Magus!

Real Suggestion: Play a Dragonwrought Kobold or a Dragonborn and take Dragon Mystic (Dragon #296). +5d6 damage to every spell, +2 CHA boost, and d12 hit die? :smallcool:

Concurrent Suggestion: Yes, play a Sandshaper.

Analytica

2011-11-06, 05:18 PM

AFB, what's up with this sandshaper?

As others said, it gives you another 43 spells known, which include dispelling, utility, physical buffs a little early, weather controlling and summons. Basically everything you lack as a warmage. At first level, too.

Gotterdammerung

2011-11-06, 05:51 PM

warmage makes a nice magic missile man.

warmage 6/ Force missile mage 5/ (BoEF) metaphysical spellshaper 3
/ something something 6

Should be able to unleash a volley of missiles big enough to make a mechwarrior blush.

twinned repeat energy admixture magic missile

and " " " " ' " quickened magic missile.

is 56 missiles this round and 56 missiles next round.

as for bloodline feats I like plant for util spells. But there are plenty of stronger ones for offense.

I also second whoever said sandshaper. Sandshaper is great prestige class for warmage.

hex0

2011-11-06, 07:26 PM

I forgot Force Missle Mage. Nice choice. Mix in Argent Savant. Be even more of a one trick pony! At least it is auto-hit damage (other than SR)

Also, Mage of the Arcane Order can be nice for Warmage. edit: with the Arcane Preparation.

Gotterdammerung

2011-11-06, 07:48 PM

I forgot Force Missle Mage. Nice choice. Mix in Argent Savant

Also, Mage of the Arcane Order can be nice for Warmage.

argent savant can be nice if you just want to overkill the force theme. But it really doesnt give you anything that you need. and it has a dead casting lvl wich hurts.

1d4+2 magic missiles instead of 1d4+1 magic missiles isnt really worth a dead casting lvl.

the +2 on force armor effects is better done with abjurant champion.

and the whole ablate force to remove shield and walls of force stopping your magic missiles, isn;t needed. Since force missile mage gets to make a caster lvl check to overcome shield, brooch of shielding, and other effects that specifically block magic missile.

If going the magic missile mage route you are better off sticking to metamagic reducer prestige classes. (meta physical spellshaper, incantrix, ect.)

Or action economy prestige classes. ( pick up haste with ecclectic learning and go warmage 6/ magic missile mage5/ swiftblade 9)

Dsurion

2011-11-07, 05:57 AM

Darth_Versity

2011-11-07, 08:11 AM

I'm glad someone said it :smallsmile:

Your not the only one. The build needs to keep up with ToB characters, not God Wizards and DMM Clerics.

Psyren

2011-11-07, 08:21 AM

Which is why I specifically didn't suggest Rainbow Warsnake. But the irony of saying a Warmage is "a combat cannon, pure and simple" then proposing yet another PrC (Dracolexi) that grants non-blasty utility magic is palpable indeed.

Which is fine, because that's how you make a Warmage better; but don't act like your PrC is somehow superior when it's taking the exact same tack as everyone else's.

I do like the fluff match of Dracolexi though, I will say that.

Midnight_v

2011-11-07, 08:52 AM

Which is fine, because that's how you make a Warmage better; but don't act like your PrC is somehow superior when it's taking the exact same tack as everyone else's.
+1
I do like what he did though, its a nice build, it's the same as everyone's idea though as you said.

In the end warmage is a class that is 5 levels long. Prc'ing is what it does. Doesn't matter what you take, you can keep up as long as you add to that spell list.

Metahuman1

2011-11-07, 01:51 PM

Is Red Wizard an option? I gotta tell you, that Plus Maximize, Rapid Metamagic, Reserves of Strength and Maximize and quickened spell with a trick or two to reduce the metamagic cost on the last two would be able to do a LOT of damage since you could jack up your saving throw DC's to the point that nothing is gonna make it's save.

You'll keep your pace on the damage of most tome of battle builds.

hex0

2011-11-07, 07:25 PM

Little Brother

2011-11-07, 08:07 PM

So, what I'm currently looking at is Warmage 5/Sandshaper 1/Divine Oracle 1/Mindbender 1/Divine Oracle +1/??? Y

Feat progression:Versatile Caster, Anarchic Bloodline, (3rd:)Touchstone:City of the Dead (6:)Skill Focus:Knowledge Religion (9:)Mindsight

And, I'm stuck from here.

Also, suggested purchases for either level 3 or 4? And is there a way to get Mindsight and Mindbender earlier? I really want Mindsight, 'cuz of how the DM plays, but the power boost from Sand Shaper is really nice.

I know it's a long shot, but is there some obscure trick to counter the lost level from Sandshaper?

Thanks.

Metahuman1

2011-11-07, 08:10 PM

There is. It's in the classes text. If you keep 15 or so pounds of sand in your gear that is on your person, you get that first level back.

Psyren

2011-11-07, 08:18 PM

So basically, Rainbow Warsnake is too powerful probably bumping up to tier 1 at least. Dracolexi, Sandshaper, Prestige Bard will get you up to tier 3 or so, right?

I'm not sure Prestige Bard gets you out of T4; you sacrifice a lot trying to get in, even with as little as you start with. Still, knowing the entire bard list has to be worth something.

Dracolexi... they have great benefits for sorcerers and bards, but aren't quite as useful for Warmagi. The flavor synergy is fantastic, but I'm tentative to grant them T3 just from that and a handful of Power Words.

Exalted Arcanist is certainly T3.

Sandshaper borders on T2.

Hague

2011-11-07, 09:01 PM

I would say to use Pact-bound Adept but the rules specifically state it's for Sorcerer's. If your DM is willing to treat Warmages like Sorcerers (I mean, both spontaneous arcane casters with limited spell lists?) You lose 2 caster levels but your Dragonpact spells will give you access to a wider variety of spells. You can get a very wide variety of SLAs (that you can change via plot) and the ability to Silent and Still spells for free 3 times a day. You also get eschew materials as a bonus feat. If you can find some way to get Eschew materials as a bonus you can turn it into a general feat. By the time you've reached 20, you can cast your full complement of War Mage spells plus a stack of 26 spells of varying utility that are cast without any restrictions. That is if you can get your DM to agree that Warmages are pretty much the same as sorcerers...

Edit: An indication of the versatility: Warmages have neither Dispel Magic nor Shield, both of which are a Fang Dragonpact granted SLA.

Randomguy

2011-11-07, 09:08 PM

Don't take Dracolexi: it has a few good things, but not nearly enough. Also, it only gets a few power word spells on your class list, since it can't add language dependant spells that aren't from your class list to your spells known.

If you're an elf or other race that grants weapon proficiency, then after your sandshaper dip, assuming the class grants you some abjurations, you can go into abjurant champion at higher levels. You don't need to multiclass to get in, you can just wait until you're a high enough level that your poor BAB gives you the requirements. Combat casting is a pretty bad feat though, so that might be a factor.

I would say stay away from initiate of the sevenfold veil: It's a good class, but it has a big feat tax.

Little Brother

2011-11-08, 02:31 AM

There is. It's in the classes text. If you keep 15 or so pounds of sand in your gear that is on your person, you get that first level back.That grants caster level, not the spell level. I mean, I still get it out of Versatile Caster, but still...

I'm not sure Prestige Bard gets you out of T4; you sacrifice a lot trying to get in, even with as little as you start with. Still, knowing the entire bard list has to be worth something.

Dracolexi... they have great benefits for sorcerers and bards, but aren't quite as useful for Warmagi. The flavor synergy is fantastic, but I'm tentative to grant them T3 just from that and a handful of Power Words.

Exalted Arcanist is certainly T3.

Sandshaper borders on T2.Sandshaper is tier 2? Really? It's nice, but I can't see it being that good.

I would say to use Pact-bound Adept but the rules specifically state it's for Sorcerer's. If your DM is willing to treat Warmages like Sorcerers (I mean, both spontaneous arcane casters with limited spell lists?) You lose 2 caster levels but your Dragonpact spells will give you access to a wider variety of spells. You can get a very wide variety of SLAs (that you can change via plot) and the ability to Silent and Still spells for free 3 times a day. You also get eschew materials as a bonus feat. If you can find some way to get Eschew materials as a bonus you can turn it into a general feat. By the time you've reached 20, you can cast your full complement of War Mage spells plus a stack of 26 spells of varying utility that are cast without any restrictions. That is if you can get your DM to agree that Warmages are pretty much the same as sorcerers...

Edit: An indication of the versatility: Warmages have neither Dispel Magic nor Shield, both of which are a Fang Dragonpact granted SLA.Trying to do great through Warmage in and of itself, no DM coddling.

Don't take Dracolexi: it has a few good things, but not nearly enough. Also, it only gets a few power word spells on your class list, since it can't add language dependant spells that aren't from your class list to your spells known.

If you're an elf or other race that grants weapon proficiency, then after your sandshaper dip, assuming the class grants you some abjurations, you can go into abjurant champion at higher levels. You don't need to multiclass to get in, you can just wait until you're a high enough level that your poor BAB gives you the requirements. Combat casting is a pretty bad feat though, so that might be a factor.

I would say stay away from initiate of the sevenfold veil: It's a good class, but it has a big feat tax.Human.

And I can't get into those if I tried. Too feat-dead.

jaybird

2011-11-08, 07:57 AM

Trying to do great through Warmage in and of itself, no DM coddling.
Human.

Warmage 5/War Mage 5 is the way you want to go. Perhaps also a level of Spellthief with the Master Spellthief feat preventing CL loss to get you into Spellwarp Sniper. Arcane Thesis, Spell Specialization, Spell Perfection, and Elemental Spellcasting are what you want to make your character a walking arcane artillery piece. Allow me to put it this way - you would have +12 CL to your shell of choice and -2 to all Metamagic on it, as well as one free Metamagic, for a total cost of five feats (Spell Focus Evocation required). Then you get +8 damage per dice from Fiery Spell and Scorching Spell, which Spell Perfection doubles. Searing Spell means you are dealing half damage even to immune enemies and full damage to resistant enemies. Persistent makes enemies save twice (not sure if this is doubled by Spell Perfection...it IS a numerical modifier, but you may need to roll Reflex against PHB to the head...). Intensify brings your spell's cap up by 10d6 (doubled by Spell Perfection). Empower and Maximize. Make Twin your free Metamagic (doubled by Spell Perfection, a barrage of 4 spells for a single slot). Now add +3 damage per dice from War Mage.

Oh, did I mention that War Mage gets a CHA-based buff aura? :smallbiggrin:

Morph Bark

2011-11-08, 07:59 AM

Warmage 5/War Mage 5 is the way you want to go.

Never heard of this PrC before. Where is it from?

jaybird

2011-11-08, 08:02 AM

Never heard of this PrC before. Where is it from?

Age of Mortals.

EDIT: OP, War Mage also should solve your feat issues - it requires Combat Casting and Eschew Materials, which you should start with, and gives you 2 free Metamagics over 5 levels.

Psyren

2011-11-08, 08:29 AM

Sandshaper is tier 2? Really? It's nice, but I can't see it being that good.

Borders, I said, borders. For the most part it depends on how inventive you are with Sand Shape, but the bonus spells and other benefits are no slouch either (free metamagic and contingent regeneration/resurrection, yes please.) It definitely adds the most raw power of the three options.

Little Brother

2011-11-08, 09:12 AM

Borders, I said, borders. For the most part it depends on how inventive you are with Sand Shape, but the bonus spells and other benefits are no slouch either (free metamagic and contingent regeneration/resurrection, yes please.) It definitely adds the most raw power of the three options.I don't see either Resurrection or Regeneration on the list.

Also, the free metamagic is situational.

Hague

2011-11-08, 10:28 AM

Trying to do great through Warmage in and of itself, no DM coddling.
Human.

Well, you could define that as DM coddling or you could simply have the DM note that a Warmage is functionally a sorcerer with all their spells picked out for them. If spontaneous arcane casting comes from draconic blood, it stands to reason that Warmages are basically the same as sorcerers. The actual PrC Pact-bound Adept does not have Sorcerer as a requirement, rather you must be within a dragonpact and dragonpacts require sorcerers to give up spell slots (and wealth) to a dragon to obtain a list of SLAs based on the level of the slot used.

Psyren

2011-11-08, 11:24 AM

I don't see either Resurrection or Regeneration on the list.

Desert Slumber/Desert Shroud.

Also, the free metamagic is situational.

Less so than you think; even something simple like going outside during the summer can enable your magic (Sandstorm pg. 9.)

I'm getting the feeling you'd rather try to poke holes in people's suggestions than actually compromise on something decent. You're the one who insists on using Warmage; make lemonade already.

Corlindale

2011-11-08, 12:21 PM

I actually played an almost pure warmage (except for 4 levels of Archmage at the end) from level 1 to 20 in a party with a ToB character. I never really felt overshadowed - perhaps except for the very end.
Sure, I never topped the warblade at single-target damage, but I was better at damaging groups - and I could damage pretty much anything thanks to the diversity of the warmage's blasting options. I also got to throw out some control and SoD on occasion.

I found Archmage a handy Prc for Mastery of Shaping/Elements, but you probably can't afford the feat tax. In any case I mostly went for it because the GM banned Sculpt Spell.

I would try to fit Quicken Spell + a way to be able to use it (ex. Rapid Metamagic) in your build somewhere - I used that all the time at the later levels.

Definetely pick the Eclectic Learning ACF if you take enough Warmage levels to get it. Even if it only gets you a few extra spells known, the right choices can make a world of difference. I picked Mirror Image, Dimension Door and Limited Wish, and it increased my survivability immensely.

Malachei

2011-11-08, 06:15 PM

See, there's the fallacy again. You really don't. A warmage is a combat cannon, so why spend your build making him into some other kind of caster? If you're going to be a warmage, BE a warmage. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being tier 4 if you're awesome at it.

What is better than a combat cannon?

A mobile combat cannon.

Seriously, there's nothing bad in wanting to play an unoptimized character or one of the weaker classes. But as a Warmage, you have lower mobility than the party Swordsage. That really hurts, and makes you really easy to hurt, on top of that. So I'd really say there's nothing bad in wanting to pick a few spells that help you out here.

The Cat Goddess

2011-11-08, 07:01 PM

What is better than a combat cannon?

A mobile combat cannon.

Seriously, there's nothing bad in wanting to play an unoptimized character or one of the weaker classes. But as a Warmage, you have lower mobility than the party Swordsage. That really hurts, and makes you really easy to hurt, on top of that. So I'd really say there's nothing bad in wanting to pick a few MAGIC ITEMS that help you out here.

Fix'd

And it's not hard at all for a Warmage to have the same or better AC than a Swordsage.

Malachei

2011-11-08, 07:11 PM

Friendly feedback: Nothing needed "fixing" in my post. :)

And I was not talking of AC. I was talking about mobility. It's right there in the quote you took.

avr

2011-11-08, 10:02 PM

hex0

2011-11-09, 12:50 PM

I just thought of an interesting build: Trickster Spellthief/Warmage/Unseen Seer/Telflammor Shadowlord/Ultimate Magus

Little Brother

2011-11-09, 03:46 PM

If Eberron material is OK in your game there are at least 2 PrCs you could make use of. Recaster provides enough free metamagic (& 2 extra spells for your list) to be worth the lost caster level but you have to be a Changeling, and Faiths of Eberron has another PrC whose name I forget but which provides metamagic at the expense of HP (no lost caster level, you have to worship the Shadow).Ooh, the Escalation Mage looks delicious. Thank you, I think I will take that.

I'm thinking I'm gonna go Warmage 5/Mindbender 1/Sandshaper 1/Warmage 2/Divine Oracle 1/Escalation Mage 6/XXX(Probably Sandshaper) 4

Anyways I can get free metamagic bonus feats, so I don't have to bother with Warmage 7? Should I try to convince the DM to give flaws? If so, should I go Sand Shaper first, or Escalation Mage?

Thanks.

hex0

2011-11-09, 05:43 PM

Why Mindbender? You could probably get an item that handed out Telepathy if you really want it. And you will need eclectic learning for a Divination spell!

I would go Warmage 5/Sandshaper 1/Divine Oracle 2 to start (Sandshaper gives you Speak with Animals and you can choose 1 with Eclectic Learing to qualify for Divine Oracle) . If you can take a feat to get all knowledge skills, go for it. If not Human Paragon 1 at first level will get you a lot of the skills you need (especially with able learner). Human Paragon 1/Warmage 3/Human Paragon 2/Sandshaper 1/Divine Oracle 2 would work as well. Two lost caster levels though...

Alternatively you could take Trickster Spellthief as your first level and then take spellwarp sniper later (don't think anyone has mentioned that)

Malachei

2011-11-09, 05:47 PM

And if he loses the item, he'd lose the prerequisite for Mindsight. Not good. Mindbender is a smart, cheap one-level dip.

Little Brother

2011-11-09, 11:58 PM

Why Mindbender? You could probably get an item that handed out Telepathy if you really want it. And you will need eclectic learning for a Divination spell!Telepathy that can be taken from me? No thanks

I would go Warmage 5/Sandshaper 1/Divine Oracle 2 to start (Sandshaper gives you Speak with Animals and you can choose 1 with Eclectic Learing to qualify for Divine Oracle) .Warmages have True Strike, they only need one, and they do get more than one eclectic learning, you know

[quote]Alternatively you could take Trickster Spellthief as your first level and then take spellwarp sniper later (don't think anyone has mentioned that)And lose more casting for mediocre damage output? No thanks, I like my 9th level spells, thanks.

jaybird

2011-11-10, 12:00 AM

And lose more casting for mediocre damage output? No thanks, I like my 9th level spells, thanks.

Master Spellthief feat will solve your problem.

jaybird

2011-11-10, 12:01 AM

And lose more casting for mediocre damage output? No thanks, I like my 9th level spells, thanks.

Master Spellthief feat will solve your problem. Seriously, Spellwarp Sniper is worth taking for a blaster who's not completely and exclusively focused on AoE.

Little Brother

2011-11-10, 01:16 AM

Master Spellthief feat will solve your problem.Uh, no. It adds caster level, not casting ability. I like my 9th level slots, thanks. I kinda want to get Wish and all.

hex0

2011-11-10, 12:45 PM

Uh, no. It adds caster level, not casting ability. I like my 9th level slots, thanks. I kinda want to get Wish and all.

Trickster Spellthief starts with a caster level

Morph Bark

2011-11-10, 12:56 PM

I just got a look at the War Mage PrC from Dragonlance's Age of Mortals book and dayum is it perfect for Warmages.

Little Brother

2011-11-10, 01:40 PM

Trickster Spellthief starts with a caster level
YES, I KNOW! But it has no relation to me getting ninth level spells. I like getting them as early as possible. I'm still gonna need to work my rear off to get Wish if I take Sandshaper. Not gonna give up another level without VERY good reason.

I just got a look at the War Mage PrC from Dragonlance's Age of Mortals book and dayum is it perfect for Warmages.Don't have it, unfortunately. I'll see if someone else I know has it.

Quick overview?

hex0

2011-11-10, 07:22 PM

YES, I KNOW! But it has no relation to me getting ninth level spells. I like getting them as early as possible. I'm still gonna need to work my rear off to get Wish if I take Sandshaper.

Sorry, I get in the habit of suggesting Spellthief for everything. :smalleek:

Warmage 5/Sandshaper 1/Divine Oracle 2/Sandshaper 9/XXX 3 would still get you 9th. You can also dip back into that 6th level of Warmage for your choice of Eccletic Learning for an 8th level spell at the end. Like, you know, Polymorph any Object! :smallwink:

Morph Bark

2011-11-10, 07:38 PM

Don't have it, unfortunately. I'll see if someone else I know has it.

Quick overview?

At class level 5 (character level 11 for a Warmage base):
+3 damage on a spell per damage die.
Ability to grant up to 3 allies his Charisma modifier as a morale bonus to AC.
2 Metamagic bonus feats out of a list of feats that are aimed at blasting spells (Maximize, Empower, Widen and Enlarge, IIRC I thought there were five of them).
Reduced ASF (-10%, useless with the Warmage's light armor casting, though maybe with a shield).

If there is a way to get armor bonus and shield bonus spells on your list, that plus Abjurant Champion would be delicious. Arcane Disciple for Competition domain even moreso.

Gotterdammerung

2011-11-10, 07:40 PM

warmage3 human paragon3 geometer3 heartfire fanner1 sublime chord 1
ultimate magus 9

levels can be played around with. human paragon is necessary for metting skill requirements.

Arcane preparation gets you into geometer.

Geometer gives you 1 spell in a spell book that you can prepare which qualifies you for ultimate magus.

10th lvl sublime chord for spells

15th lvl warmage for spells

caster lvl 46 for both without any feats or magic items.

Morph Bark

2011-11-10, 07:42 PM

caster lvl 46 for both without any feats or magic items.

wat

Explain.

Little Brother

2011-11-10, 07:53 PM

Sorry, I get in the habit of suggesting Spellthief for everything. :smalleek:

Warmage 5/Sandshaper 1/Divine Oracle 2/Sandshaper 9/XXX 3 would still get you 9th. You can also dip back into that 6th level of Warmage for your choice of Eccletic Learning for an 8th level spell at the end. Like, you know, Polymorph any Object! :smallwink:That's losing two spell slots. Not worth it, IMO, since I want to be optimally effective through all the levels I'm playing. I'm probably not gonna pop back into Sand Shaper until I've exhausted other options. I'm not even sure it'll fly, DM-wise(Locale and all), so yeah.

If you've gotten EL once, you keep getting it when advancing spellcasting. Don't need to dip back in.

If sandshaper doesn't fly, do you guys think Divine Oracle or Escalation Mage is more important early on? I'm thinking go with a metamagic as my level 3 feat and hit Escalation Mage 7, run to 9, nab 2 levels or oracle, and run up the rest of Escalation Mage, and then being stuck, (Warmage 5/Mindbender 1/Escalation Mage 3/ Divine oracle 1 or 2/Escalation Mage +3/??? X).

Also, how can get absurdly high caster level?

Gotterdammerung

2011-11-10, 07:54 PM

wat

Explain.

well sublime chord combines your warmage and your sublime chord together for purposes of caster lvl. And lots of stuff boosts them both up. If you want to say that it only combines true levels and not the caster lvl of each then it would look like this instead.

25 from combined levels of warmage and sublime chord. (29 with practiced spellcaster)

+3 CL to each from ultimate magus

28 CL for both

(32 with practiced spellcaster)

Little Brother

2011-11-10, 07:56 PM

At class level 5 (character level 11 for a Warmage base):
+3 damage on a spell per damage die.
Ability to grant up to 3 allies his Charisma modifier as a morale bonus to AC.
2 Metamagic bonus feats out of a list of feats that are aimed at blasting spells (Maximize, Empower, Widen and Enlarge, IIRC I thought there were five of them).
Reduced ASF (-10%, useless with the Warmage's light armor casting, though maybe with a shield).

If there is a way to get armor bonus and shield bonus spells on your list, that plus Abjurant Champion would be delicious. Arcane Disciple for Competition domain even moreso.Such a pain to get into, though. Look at that feat tax. :smallyuk:

warmage3 human paragon3 geometer3 heartfire fanner1 sublime chord 1
ultimate magus 9

levels can be played around with. human paragon is necessary for metting skill requirements.

Arcane preparation gets you into geometer.

Geometer gives you 1 spell in a spell book that you can prepare which qualifies you for ultimate magus.

10th lvl sublime chord for spells

15th lvl warmage for spells

caster lvl 46 for both without any feats or magic items.Not seeing it.

EDIT: And again, I am trying to play a Warmage, not something absurd on a warmage chasis. Near the top of T3 is my aim.

Morph Bark

2011-11-10, 08:01 PM

Such a pain to get into, though. Look at that feat tax. :smallyuk:

Combat Casting is prettymuch a requirement anyway, I'd say. Plus, for Weapon Focus, you can take Weapon Focus (rays) and potentially go into Spellwarp Sniper afterwards.

Plus if your DM objects on grounds of "you're not playing a Warmage, you're playing a bunch of PrCs", you can say "but I AM playing a War Mage!"

EDIT: If you're not Human or not using Flaws though, I can see you disliking the feat tax. Still, three feats, 3rd-level arcane spells required, got it all by level 6.

Little Brother

2011-11-10, 08:07 PM

Combat Casting is prettymuch a requirement anyway, I'd say. Plus, for Weapon Focus, you can take Weapon Focus (rays) and potentially go into Spellwarp Sniper afterwards.

Plus if your DM objects on grounds of "you're not playing a Warmage, you're playing a bunch of PrCs", you can say "but I AM playing a War Mage!"

EDIT: If you're not Human or not using Flaws though, I can see you disliking the feat tax. Still, three feats, 3rd-level arcane spells required, got it all by level 6.Human, but have a bloodline and need Versatile Caster to nab Charm Person early enough, so I only have one feat. If I can talk him into flaws, I might have a chance, though. I'll see.

Gotterdammerung

2011-11-10, 08:13 PM

I am trying to play a Warmage, not something absurd on a warmage chasis.

But that IS a warmage. It's like an Ultimate Warbardmage.

And as far as going over T3, that is entirely up to you. As it is your call which spells you decide to learn from your sublime chord side.

You COULD learn only perfect spells and skyrocket to tier 1. But that is your call.

Just learn utility, mobility, counter spells and stay at T3 if thats what you want.

Little Brother

2011-11-11, 12:28 AM

But that IS a warmage. It's like an Ultimate Warbardmage.No it isn't. It doesn't matter. The warmage will pull no weight, you won't even be using its casting most of the time. It's a sublime chord build.

And as far as going over T3, that is entirely up to you. As it is your call which spells you decide to learn from your sublime chord side.

You COULD learn only perfect spells and skyrocket to tier 1. But that is your call.

Just learn utility, mobility, counter spells and stay at T3 if thats what you want.The idea of intentionally neutering your own character. Even my DM would be pissed if I did that.

Is there ANY possible way to PRC out by 4th or 5th level(without losing CL)? The warmage has NOTHING after 3rd level and it's annoying. Any early entry cheese is okay, I'm already abusing Versatile Caster to get abilities early.

deuxhero

2011-11-11, 12:55 AM

Dip commoner at level 1?

Gotterdammerung

2011-11-11, 01:34 AM

No it isn't. It doesn't matter. The warmage will pull no weight, you won't even be using its casting most of the time. It's a sublime chord build.

I would be using both sides spell casting equally. And use the sublime chord spells known to cover gaps in the warmage spells known side. And have plenty of spells on both sides to fuel metamagics through ultimate magus' abilty.

I would probably use the sublime side to cover defense and mobility and action economy so I could blast with my warmage side without being a liability.

The idea of intentionally neutering your own character. Even my DM would be pissed if I did that.

So intentionally choosing a weaker class and prestige class is ok...

but intentionally choosing less than "the most powerful spells ever" is some great atrocity that will piss your GM off?

Weirdness.