Explaining why you wouldn't raise the dead

[Darth_Versity]

So in a game i'll be starting soon i'll have my PC's going after a king who has killed or destroyed nearly everything dear to them. When they finally kill him they will find out they were minraped/programmed amnesia and he was actually a very good king and the last defence between the evil that spreads across the land.

Now the only thing I cant explain is why this great king who is needed to save the world would just be ressurected and put back on his throne. I cant do away with life restoring magic as they will need it later, but at the same time I cant explain why powerful figures dont use it.

Any help?

[flumphy]

When someone in most D&D settings dies, he goes to the place most suited to his alignment and/or his religion, the place in the universe that he is literally the most suited to. It's understandable that after a stressful life full of uncertainty and assassination attempts, a soul would want to kick back and remain in the place he ultimately belongs, especially if that place is one of the pleasurable planes that the good-aligned end up in.

And then there's the fact that dying violently sucks. I'm sure even someone stuck in the abyss would think twice about being raised to risk going through it a second time. There's a good chance they'll end up back in the same place, after all.

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, that is a conundrum., yet another case of classic plots short circuited by magic.
Maybe kingy doesn't want to come back? After all ,he probably feels terrible for the things he has done in Evil Mode. Maybe there is a diamond shortage? Maybe there is a plague or something else as well that is keeping all high level clerics busy? Maybe, in Evil King Mode, he pulled a Herod and wiped out said clerics. Frankly though, maybe the quest is now to find someone to replace the king, because frankly, as a player, if I found the complete bastard who did all sorts of things to my character,even under magical voodoo weirdness and not truly of their own violation, I would want them to stay dead.
While on the quest, the PC could gather items and symbols of power, eventually becoming the protectors of the realm themselves.
A little cheesy, but so is having the boss being Actually a Good Guy, Honest.

[Midnight_v]

Hey was never IN evil king mode. If I'm reading the op correctly.
It the pc's who were in Evil mode, because they got "Mindraped" to kill this dude... wow.
Uhm, well, when they kill the king have the Duex Ex Machina Villian that raped them in the first place show up and take the body.
Alternatively, yeah, if you don't want to come back from your reward I dont' think any magic can make you iirc.

[NNescio]

So in a game i'll be starting soon i'll have my PC's going after a king who has killed or destroyed nearly everything dear to them. When they finally kill him they will find out they were minraped/programmed amnesia and he was actually a very good king and the last defence between the evil that spreads across the land.

Now the only thing I cant explain is why this great king who is needed to save the world would just be ressurected and put back on his throne. I cant do away with life restoring magic as they will need it later, but at the same time I cant explain why powerful figures dont use it.

Any help?

Strip #410 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html)

[Ravens_cry]

@Midnight_v:
Oh, re-reading the OP, you are probably right. Eh, that feels a little railroady. As a player, I would ask shouldn't I have gotten a saving throw?
Depending on level, taking the body may not work. Having the means given by the Real Big Bid to kill the king trap the soul in some way could potentially work. Still, the whole thing feels a little railroady.

[Kol Korran]

another idea would be to have the mindraped PC also believe that the king is some sort of fiend/ monster/ done some ritual to enable him to come back. so th PCs need to find a way to kill him "for good". quite fortunately, they gain access to a certain spell/ magic item that prevents coming back (something on the lines of a necromatic death effect) or perhaps an item that binds the king's soul (and is quickly stolen procured by the real villain (perahps by an "instant summons" or a similar affect). the Eberron campaign settin has a weapon enchantmet called "keeper's fang" which if used for the killing blow, sends the could into some secure dimension to be held.

this might even open a later quest to retrieve old kingy's soul.

[Bhaakon]

Maybe you should have the PCs solve the problem. It's not enough to just assassinate this powerful tyrant, they have to thwart any clever contingencies he's put in place to have himself raised by destroying his very soul.

[flumphy]

Maybe you should have the PCs solve the problem. It's not enough to just assassinate this powerful tyrant, they have to thwart any clever contingencies he's put in place to have himself raised by destroying his very soul.

If these are good PCs, as the OP suggests, then the whole soul-destroying thing isn't likely to be something they'd do. However, if I'm misunderstanding and this is an evil party, then yeah, this could be a really fun plot hook.

[Darth_Versity]

My previous campaign ended when the whole party were killed by a Necromancer lich. She then trapped all their souls and raised them as the generals of her army. I have now moved forward 200 years.

The new party will be a group of new 5th lvl characters and I'll have an intro for each one. Each intro will have a horrific event that sets them to wanting to kill the king.

When they succeed they will discover that the 'horrific event' was actually a false memory to get them to kill the one man who stood in the Necromancers way. Now he is free to sweep across the lands with the armies all disorganised.

To stop this the PC's must defeat their old characters, raise them from the dead and then set out in two groups to destroy the necromancer and his phylactery at the same time.

[GoatBoy]

Heroes of Horror contains a section aimed on the idea of "came back wrong." It lists a few reasons why resurrection might not work, or the eerie, terrifying things that can happen when you try to go against the universal certainty of death.

The wrong soul might be returned to the body. The resurrected might undergo a dramatic personality change. They might become the focus of extraplanar creatures who are determined to enforce the "rules of life and death," such as certain types of Inevitables. They might be marked by some physical change from the time they spent dead, which regular magic can't cure.

And while the ability to cast raise dead is common enough for players, it is assumed to be a rare enough ability and occurrence in the world that powerful entities or even gods could afford to take a personal interest in any resurrection that happens in the world.

There are quite a few ways to kill someone and make it more difficult to resurrect them, too.

[Darrin]

Now the only thing I cant explain is why this great king who is needed to save the world would just be ressurected and put back on his throne. I cant do away with life restoring magic as they will need it later, but at the same time I cant explain why powerful figures dont use it.


Which is why powerful figures use disintegration or spheres of annihilation to get rid of their meddlesome foes. Presumably whoever was clever enough to orchestrate the mindrape has also figured out how to trump 9th-level wish/miracle/true resurrection.

The other option is resurrection generally involves a spiritual component. Divine intervention can step in and say, "Yeah, well, the soul doesn't come back, and I'm not going to explain why." Maybe the otherwise good king fell behind on his tithe payments, or was faced with some sort of Morton's Fork and chose the option that peeved off his deity, and he was going to get that atonement taken care of, but with his busy schedule and all he had to put it off until next week...



Any help?

How can this king not have an evil twin (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilTwin)?

[Coidzor]

^: Isn't the usual method something involving flesh to stone, stone to mud, the addition of water, purify food and water, having multiple people drink the water, doing the same thing to them, and then mixing it together, splitting it up again, and dumping it in several different location?

Trap them in a limbo state between life and death where no resurrection magic will work and wish won't really cut it either.
And then there's the fact that dying violently sucks. I'm sure even someone stuck in the abyss would think twice about being raised to risk going through it a second time. There's a good chance they'll end up back in the same place, after all.

....So because where they are sucks, they should stay there and get eaten by demons rather than take whatever chance to avoid this fate when it presents itself?

...what?


Hey was never IN evil king mode. If I'm reading the op correctly.
It the pc's who were in Evil mode, because they got "Mindraped" to kill this dude... wow.
Uhm, well, when they kill the king have the Duex Ex Machina Villian that raped them in the first place show up and take the body.
Alternatively, yeah, if you don't want to come back from your reward I dont' think any magic can make you iirc.

Create Undead. Create Greater Undead. Animate Dread Warrior.

[flumphy]

....So because where they are sucks, they should stay there and get eaten by demons rather than take whatever chance to avoid this fate when it presents itself?

...what?

Well, the choices are:

1. Stay and get eaten by demons
2. Get raised, go through dying again eventually, and probably still get eaten by demons because changing your entire worldview is insanely difficult

Couple this with the fact that the plane resonates with their very soul. That deep down they know they belong in the abyss. And that the environment of the abyss doesn't exactly encourage optimism.

Some people might take the rez and be scared straight by the experience, yes, but I think you'd also see a lot of people just accept their fate.

[Skaven]

"The family line of the king was sworn in by oath that their souls would guard *insert deity name*, none of them can be raised as they cannot abandon their deity, doing so would violate their honor."

[Diefje]

King believes in the sanctity of life and death. Coming back from the dead is selfish and against the natural order of things, and thus he believes it to be evil. And will not accept a resurrection.

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe the Big Bad, having thought this through, mindraped/bribed whatever entity was necessary to keep him from coming back.

[Coidzor]

Well, the choices are:

1. Stay and get eaten by demons
2. Get raised, go through dying again eventually, and probably still get eaten by demons because changing your entire worldview is insanely difficult

Couple this with the fact that the plane resonates with their very soul. That deep down they know they belong in the abyss. And that the environment of the abyss doesn't exactly encourage optimism.

Some people might take the rez and be scared straight by the experience, yes, but I think you'd also see a lot of people just accept their fate.

Still seems like you're forgetting the propensity for extreme hedonism that CE rubs up against fairly often. Existing even in most prisons in life is more fun than existing in the abyss, so there's that one more chance to live it up before having to pay the piper as well that you seem all too over ready to discount.


"The family line of the king was sworn in by oath that their souls would guard *insert deity name*, none of them can be raised as they cannot abandon their deity, doing so would violate their honor."

D&D Deities don't need guards in the slightest. :smalltongue: Especially with Salient Divine Abilities.

That kind of solution just makes the deity look like a **** when the deity is probably supposed to be ostensibly good if Good King Wenschelas is a devout devotee thereof.

[Stormageddon]

Give you PC's magic items to kill him with that prevent coming back. Maybe work finding said weapons into your plot. If you're going to kill someone you should make sure it sticks.

[Mr. Anon Omys]

There could be a law in place in the kingdom that invalidates a king's right to rule once they are killed, a la Girl Genius. That way, even if the king does come back, he cannot lead his armies with a good convince, knowing that it goes against the very laws he is attempting to protect.

[Midnight_v]

Create Undead. Create Greater Undead. Animate Dread Warrior.


Alternatively, yeah, if you don't want to come back from your reward I dont' think any magic can make you iirc.
Nice try buuuut.
No.
Those things Don't affect "you" as in your soul. . . they animate your "body" but they haven't taken your from your reward.
"You" are still in heaven somewhere. Those spells fill your body with energy from the negative energy plane, which activates you body and sometimes even your memory but you still don't have a soul. The soul is somewhere else entirely.
Which is why MindSwitch the psionic power works how it does like at all.

I could mindswitch into your body. Kill you while you were inside my body. Keep your body. You'd be then considered "Dead" as you'd be a life force with nowhere to go... at which point I can then animate my old body...
Even as a greater undead.

So... y'know: No.
Even at that I was talking about the "good" resurections or at least the ones based on Raise Dead. Which specifically spell out:


In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. ymmv...

[Calanon]

Soul Bind/Trap the Soul were both made for scenarios like this... :smallcool:



Soul Bind
Necromancy
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Corpse
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: No
You draw the soul from a newly dead body and imprison it in a black sapphire gem. The subject must have been dead no more than 1 round per caster level. The soul, once trapped in the gem, cannot be returned through clone, raise dead, reincarnation, resurrection, true resurrection, or even a miracle or a wish. Only by destroying the gem or dispelling the spell on the gem can one free the soul (which is then still dead).

Focus
A black sapphire of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature whose soul is to be bound. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the binding is attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched. Remember that this value can change over time as creatures gain more Hit Dice.)



Trap the Soul
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M, (F); see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action or see text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text
Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform. If the trapped creature is a powerful creature from another plane it can be required to perform a service immediately upon being freed. Otherwise, the creature can go free once the gem imprisoning it is broken.

Depending on the version selected, the spell can be triggered in one of two ways.

Spell Completion
First, the spell can be completed by speaking its final word as a standard action as if you were casting a regular spell at the subject. This allows spell resistance (if any) and a Will save to avoid the effect. If the creature’s name is spoken as well, any spell resistance is ignored and the save DC increases by 2. If the save or spell resistance is successful, the gem shatters.

Trigger Object
The second method is far more insidious, for it tricks the subject into accepting a trigger object inscribed with the final spell word, automatically placing the creature’s soul in the trap. To use this method, both the creature’s name and the trigger word must be inscribed on the trigger object when the gem is enspelled. A sympathy spell can also be placed on the trigger object. As soon as the subject picks up or accepts the trigger object, its life force is automatically transferred to the gem without the benefit of spell resistance or a save.

Material Component
Before the actual casting of trap the soul, you must procure a gem of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature to be trapped. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the entrapment is attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched. Remember that this value can change over time as creatures gain more Hit Dice.)

Focus (Trigger Object Only)
If the trigger object method is used, a special trigger object, prepared as described above, is needed.

Its not so much as they wouldn't raise him, as it is that they cannot :smallamused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Maybe you should have the PCs solve the problem. It's not enough to just assassinate this powerful tyrant, they have to thwart any clever contingencies he's put in place to have himself raised by destroying his very soul.

Reread OP.

[Bhaakon]

Reread OP.

I fail to see what you are getting at here.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I fail to see what you are getting at here.

The king wasn't evil. They don't want him dead.

[Mooncrow]

The king wasn't evil. They don't want him dead.

They don't find out until later, so have them do it during the assassination.

[Hiro Protagonest]

They don't find out until later, so have them do it during the assassination.

Does mindrape end as soon as you finish the task?

[Mooncrow]

Does mindrape end as soon as you finish the task?

Sorry, I don't understand the relevance of that question? Of course it doesn't end; not without a wish or miracle. But they can still find out the truth (and are going to only after the kill from the OP's description). Since the truth is DM fiat hidden, just make the "destroy the soul" part of the job.

"He has a legion of followers that will try to bring him back, so you must make sure he can never be raised." - seems like an easy enough thing to sell.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Sorry, I don't understand the relevance of that question?

I don't have SpC. :smallannoyed:

[Mooncrow]

I don't have SpC. :smallannoyed:

Ah, it's actually from the BoVD - Mindrape is instantaneous, and only reversible with wish or miracle.

[deuxhero]

Because he (believes he) is about to be tried for a crime if res?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Now personally I'd have the big bad use minions disguised using Viel to simply make it LOOK like the King and his men did these things, before screwing with memories.

The real problem with altered memories and illusions is the PC's can't be counted on to blindly follow them. What if they try gathering information on the "evil" King before rushing off to fight him. What happens when they can't find any other examples of him being evil? I'll tell you what happens they may start to question there own memories of events.

For an even better idea. Have the king be evil. Imagine for a moment the Tyrant King is building his empire to combat an even greater threat. He does and orders unspeakable things for a purpose to build a kingdom that can stand against Oblivion. He will do whatever is necessary to save the world from an even greater threat.

Now with your basic plot you have the solution to stay dead is quite easy. Have the main villain provide the PC's with something that will keep the King Dead. A unique blade that steals his soul etc. After all if your hunting someone to kill them you'd want them to stay dead. It can be simply handed to them or they can go on a quest to find this relic.


Nice try buuuut.
No.
Those things Don't affect "you" as in your soul. . . they animate your "body" but they haven't taken your from your reward.
"You" are still in heaven somewhere. Those spells fill your body with energy from the negative energy plane, which activates you body and sometimes even your memory but you still don't have a soul. The soul is somewhere else entirely.

Nice try buuut. No.
If someone is turned into an undead they can not be resurrected or even true resurrected until the undead is destoryed.


@Midnight_v:
Oh, re-reading the OP, you are probably right. Eh, that feels a little railroady. As a player, I would ask shouldn't I have gotten a saving throw?


When the big bad of the entire campaign who casts 9th level spells decides to do something to the PC's when they are only level 5. Assuming it even happened then and not when they were children. But as I said above illusions and disguises are better.

[Calanon]

When the big bad of the entire campaign who casts 9th level spells decides to do something to the PC's when they are only level 5. Assuming it even happened then and not when they were children.

As a Character, I would just retroactively assume that through out my entire life this evil presence has been altering my memories and my life...

Something like this would make me want to ANNIHILATE the BBEG ...how dare he mess with my life! ...However I'm a very extreme and violent person when it comes to BBEGs... AH well ^_^

[Reluctance]

I'm away from my books ATM, but I think you can have Mindrape take effect or undo itself in response to certain things. It'd be unrealistic for the bad guy to let it drop and create pissed off former underlings for no reason, but then it's unrealistic for the PCs to have any chance when a lich capable of casting ninth level spells wouldn't.

Keeping him dead is relatively simple. He's not just a horrible tyrant, he's a horrible tyrant who consorts with fiends! If he isn't killed with a certain weapon or doesn't have a certain ritual cast over the body, his soul will just come back to continue his reign. As a bonus, this leaves the option open for the PCs to recover the soul later and restore a powerful force for good.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I'm away from my books ATM, but I think you can have Mindrape take effect or undo itself in response to certain things. It'd be unrealistic for the bad guy to let it drop and create pissed off former underlings for no reason, but then it's unrealistic for the PCs to have any chance when a lich capable of casting ninth level spells wouldn't.

Well if the King had a powerful MacGuffin to annihilate any undead within a certain range it make sense as to why the Lich couldn't do it.

[Darth_Versity]

As a Character, I would just retroactively assume that through out my entire life this evil presence has been altering my memories and my life...

Something like this would make me want to ANNIHILATE the BBEG ...how dare he mess with my life! ...However I'm a very extreme and violent person when it comes to BBEGs... AH well ^_^

This is the sort of reaction i'm looking for. This Lich has already killed all of their previous PC's (who they took from lvl 1 all the way up to 13/14) and now they think they are going to take the lich out (i've tricked them OoC that the king is the lich in disguise).

So they are getting all set for revenge and then i'm going to cause a serious uproar by revealing that my BBEG has just used them to kill a force for good in this world.

I know its a bit twisted that the guy who casts 9th lvl spells cant kill the king but hey, its all part the story and the story is whats important, right?

[Lord Vukodlak]

I know its a bit twisted that the guy who casts 9th lvl spells cant kill the king but hey, its all part the story and the story is whats important, right?

As I said before give the King a MacGuffin power that would let him slay the Lich. There's a reason the King is the last best hope isn't there?

[Bhaakon]

Well if the King had a powerful MacGuffin to annihilate any undead within a certain range it make sense as to why the Lich couldn't do it.

A MacGuffin that the PCs destroy because it's obviously the disguised lich's phylactery, right?

[Arbane]

When they succeed they will discover that the 'horrific event' was actually a false memory to get them to kill the one man who stood in the Necromancers way. Now he is free to sweep across the lands with the armies all disorganised.

To stop this the PC's must defeat their old characters, raise them from the dead and then set out in two groups to destroy the necromancer and his phylactery at the same time.


This is a GREAT plot. There's nothing players enjoy more than finding out they've been GM-mandated suckers all along.

And Part 2 is even better. "Stand back, puny mortals, only the NPCs can save us now!"

:smallfurious:

(Yes, I know part 2 isn't THAT bad, but plots like this just torque me.)

[Darth_Versity]

This is a GREAT plot. There's nothing players enjoy more than finding out they've been GM-mandated suckers all along.

And Part 2 is even better. "Stand back, puny mortals, only the NPCs can save us now!"

:smallfurious:

(Yes, I know part 2 isn't THAT bad, but plots like this just torque me.)

But its not NPC's that are needed, its their other characters. They will end up playing two groups of PC's. One to hunt down the lich, the other to find the phylactery.

I can't really see a problem with a plot of "The BBEG has outsmarted you and used you for his own ends. Show your burning hatred by killing him however you want"

[Mooncrow]

But its not NPC's that are needed, its their other characters. They will end up playing two groups of PC's. One to hunt down the lich, the other to find the phylactery.

I can't really see a problem with a plot of "The BBEG has outsmarted you and used you for his own ends. Show your burning hatred by killing him however you want"

You can't really call it "outsmarted" when it happens before the game starts.

[Darth_Versity]

You can't really call it "outsmarted" when it happens before the game starts.

Then look at it as "Your DM outsmarted you as you actually believed you were getting revenge for your old PC's when in fact you just got screwed over. Now head out and take it out on his NPC's"

Its not like i'm that bad, I just want to really get the blood pumping when they face this guy as I have learned from previous experience that the players genuine hatred for an NPC makes an amazing game.

I also have a houserule that lets them burn the BBEG character sheet when they finally kill him/her as it gives them the safety of knowing that they won't be back. Really helps release the tension after an epic battle.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You can't really call it "outsmarted" when it happens before the game starts.

If the PC's blindly charge forward without thought I'd call it outsmarted. If I was trying to take down an evil monarch who wronged me. I'd look for allies other people he's abused if he did those things to me and my companions surly there must be far more. I'd try to incite a peasant uprising to aid my quest for vengence. But those things would only work if he was actually evil. If the king is actually good and I try and find out all I can about him before extracting my vengence whats going to happen?

I'll start to doubt what happened, and if I start digging into the truth of my horrific event using spells like divination, speak with dead or even speak with plants.

So basically Versity during the course of planning to kill the King. They might just unravel your plans.

[Midnight_v]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight_v
Nice try buuuut.
No.
Those things Don't affect "you" as in your soul. . . they animate your "body" but they haven't taken your from your reward.
"You" are still in heaven somewhere. Those spells fill your body with energy from the negative energy plane, which activates you body and sometimes even your memory but you still don't have a soul. The soul is somewhere else entirely.


Nice try buuut. No.
If someone is turned into an undead they can not be resurrected or even true resurrected until the undead is destoryed.
My suggestion to you is a reading compreshension check. Otherwise, that strawman you've got there might catch fire.
In other words... what you said, there? Does nothing to refute what I said... but to comment on what you said: No they cannot. Thats because the "vessel" aka: body is still inhabited by negative energy.
Thats not your soul, in there like.. at.. all.
Now sadly I'm talking about a few different things: Clone is another spell that illustrates what I'm talking about, and by inference what you're talking about.

If I grow a clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) for you and you die, after you've been killed your soul enters the new body.
What happens to the old body?
Well, frankly, whatever we want, including dread warrior-ing, or mummyfication, or whatever. Still though the resulting undead is not to-wit, "you".
There's actually an official D&D novel that featured that exact thing come to think of it, and there's Manshoon's, and the Manshoon Vampire.
So... yeah. There you go.
Still thats away from my original point which is: All the spells that reference raise dead, that I know of: Keep the clause in raise dead that: "Only the willing can be brought back" from their respective reward.

[Lord Vukodlak]

My suggestion to you is a reading compreshension check. Otherwise, that strawman you've got there might catch fire.

What strawman argument? Regular raise dead can't bring someone back whose been turned into an undead.

You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

According to the rules someone can't be resurrected until after the undead creature is destoryed. Just because they did it in a novel doesn't mean it applies to the rules of the game. Your assumption the soul is somehow untouched is completely opinion. Many forms of undead are actually the twisted spirit of the deceased such as a Specter.

And no matter the possibilies with Clone spell functions differently then divine resurrection magic. If your already dead its to late to start growing a clone. As the flesh sample must be taken from the "original creature’s living body"

Manshoon doesn't even count as he has multiple clones active at the same time. There was Manshoon, Manshoon and Manshoon's Vamprie Clone. The third clone being very irked when he died and found he rose as a vampire instead of in the clone tanks.

[candycorn]

Per Raise Dead:
In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

[Midnight_v]

Per Raise Dead:

In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.
My original point was the above.
I'm not sure exactly what you're arguing against, if you agree with my "stated above" posisiton, that you can't Raise someone unwilingly


*Goes to review thread*:
Ahh I see, this is a misunderstanding occuring because "Coidzor" went back and edited his original post.
I said: You can't make people come back from thier rewards in the afterlife, ala divine resurrection and he basically said: "Necromacy, would like a word with you" which prompted my post.
You came in and I can see how it might have sounded odd, why I was saying what I was saying, but yeah, my original point is simple:
Raise Dead (Chain) = Can't FORCE anyone to return.
The rest of all that was a discussion of the difference between the soul and body in D&D.
Thus leading to a vast misunderstanding because someone edited out the offending post. No blood/No foul.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Ah I see the misunderstanding now, still leaves me to wonder how there was three Manshoon's running around at the same time before one of them became a vampire.

[Psyren]

This is easy. Remove the Raise and Resurrect spells, and make them a difficult Incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) (read: plot-spell) instead. That way, when you want the players to have access to resurrection, they can go out and get what they need for it, without everyone in the kingdom being able to use it willy-nilly.


Ah I see the misunderstanding now, still leaves me to wonder how there was three Manshoon's running around at the same time before one of them became a vampire.

His soul got divided among his clones somehow IIRC, and they ended up wanting to kill each other so only one would be left. (Is there a trope for that?)

[Lord Vukodlak]

This is easy. Remove the Raise and Resurrect spells, and make them a difficult Incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) (read: plot-spell) instead. That way, when you want the players to have access to resurrection, they can go out and get what they need for it, without everyone in the kingdom being able to use it willy-nilly.

That has its own problems if the PC's can get access surely a King can.

[Psyren]

That has its own problems if the PC's can get access surely a King can.

Of course the King can - by sending adventurers to go get it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Of course the King can - by sending adventurers to go get it.

But the point is the king is supposed to stay dead.

[Thane of Fife]

How about the new king doesn't want the old king back (if he comes back, I don't get to be king!). Thus, it doesn't happen.

If the players want to steal his corpse and get him resurrected on their own time, great, now you can set the invasion against the backdrop of a civil war, which just disorganizes the armies even more.

[Psyren]

But the point is the king is supposed to stay dead.

:smallsigh:

The OP wants resurrection available to the PCs later. He wants to make it so that the kingdom can't use it willy-nilly and mess up his plot for right now.

Making it an Incantation is the answer. I don't see how this is difficult to grasp.

[Mooncrow]

:smallsigh:

The OP wants resurrection available to the PCs later. He wants to make it so that the kingdom can't use it willy-nilly and mess up his plot for right now.

Making it an Incantation is the answer. I don't see how this is difficult to grasp.

Not "willy-nilly"; he doesn't want the king raised, period. If there's a way to raise the king, at all, the PCs will most likely try to do so.

Which is the situation the OP is trying to avoid.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Not "willy-nilly"; he doesn't want the king raised, period. If there's a way to raise the king, at all, the PCs will most likely try to do so.

Which is the situation the OP is trying to avoid.

That's Psyren's point. :smallannoyed:

[Psyren]

Not "willy-nilly"; he doesn't want the king raised, period. If there's a way to raise the king, at all, the PCs will most likely try to do so.

Which is the situation the OP is trying to avoid.

He can easily modify an incantation so that it will work on the thing he will need the PCs to use it for, while not being able to work on the king. It just takes creativity.

Examples:
- By the time they find it, the window for its possible use on the King has elapsed.
- It requires the body to be in a specific place/condition, and they don't have access to the King's (or it is too damaged after their mindrape-fuelled rage.)
- It requires bargaining with a powerful outsider/gatekeeper, or even the deity of Death in the setting himself. This entity has a number of reasons why he or she won't raise the king.
- The King's body/soul is actually a component for the ritual to work, thus preventing them from using it on the king himself.

And so on.

[Mooncrow]

He can easily modify an incantation so that it will work on the thing he will need the PCs to use it for, while not being able to work on the king. It just takes creativity.

Examples:
- By the time they find it, the window for its possible use on the King has elapsed.
- It requires the body to be in a specific place/condition, and they don't have access to the King's (or it is too damaged after their mindrape-fuelled rage.)
- It requires bargaining with a powerful outsider/gatekeeper, or even the deity of Death in the setting himself. This entity has a number of reasons why he or she won't raise the king.
- The King's body/soul is actually a component for the ritual to work, thus preventing them from using it on the king himself.

And so on.

eh, it seems like it would be easier to make use of one of the many ways to make that one body un-raiseable rather than change the entire spell line. Changes like that tend to have unintended consequences down the road.

But, ymmv.

[Psyren]

With the standard spells available, nobody is unraise-able unless they truly don't wish to come back, which a good king wanting to forestall armageddon would.

Or there simply aren't high-level spellcasters in the world, which may be the case as I don't know the OP's setting.

[kudosmog]

Kinda old thread, but I'm curious if this has happened yet and how it played out so far.

I mean we have a group of level 5 characters.
None of them can rez the king.

If a group of people kill a King, won't....pretty much everyone be hunting them? At the least, the King's guards would be after them. And if they carried the body to a Church, do you think questions wouldn't be asked? They should be afraid, they should want to run. They shouldn't have the option to rez the King.

Once he's found by his people, there are a bunch of ways to not rez him. The main reason is him not wanting to come back. I like the idea of his soul not being able to come back because their house/name whatever is honor bound to serve their deity in death.

The PC's don't need to know this though.

I also like the idea of the PC's having a special weapon that drains his soul from his body much like a "magic jar" spell. They don't need to know that either. They kill him, soul goes to the weapon, body looks dead. Try to rez the body, not gonna work.

Or you can eliminate rez magic from the campaign, to be re-entered at a later date through a questline or something.

Lots of really good ideas in the thread. Wondering how things are playing out =P

Oh, and just sayin.....if it were me, upon character creation, I'd have them make ghost rolls. Have em roll a d20 and mark the result on their sheet. Don't tell them what it's for, and roll against it for your bad guys spell. Have the mindrape wear off in order(based on the difference between your two rolls) whenever you see fit.
That way nobody feels like there was nothing they could do (even though that's the case) to prevent this. Their rolls just were nowhere near enough to stop it.

[JaronK]

Have the Necromancer guy give them Thinium (sp?) weapons that grab the soul, without telling them that's what they are. They can also be overpowered magic weapons, so they'll keep using them. Now the king's soul is trapped, at the very least, and they don't realize they've still got him.

JaronK

[Rubik]

Have the Necromancer guy give them Thinium (sp?) weapons that grab the soul, without telling them that's what they are. They can also be overpowered magic weapons, so they'll keep using them. Now the king's soul is trapped, at the very least, and they don't realize they've still got him.

JaronKIs that only for one soul, or for anything it kills? Because if it's anything, that just means they keep performing evil deeds whenever they kill ANYTHING over and over and over and...

Works best if they're given to the whole party!

[Garwain]

Maybe the good King's soul is more needed in the afterlife than in the material world? Or he is glad that his soul is safe how, and is not willing to return and risk getting his soul trapped. Make him hunt the adventurers as a ghost, like eugeen greenhilt. spooky omens..... wooo....

[Yahzi]

Any help?
Tell the players that the only way to kill this particular king is to stuff his body in a Sphere of Annilhilation (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sphere_of_Annihilation).

"Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character."

That sounds like what you're looking for.

[BobVosh]

Inevitables that have decided this is a fix spot, and bringing back the king would be against the natural order. Resurrecting royalty/leaders of kingdoms are all frowned upon by them.

This way they can bring him back but it just doesn't help.

[ILM]

Have the Necromancer guy give them Thinium (sp?) weapons that grab the soul
Nitpick: Thinaun, IIRC.

[share and enjoy]

You could just have their characters and other npc's not know about resurrection magic just straight up it's incredibly rare or a lost magic- until later on, then always make it more urgent to res someone else.

[The Witch-King]

All noble lineages once they achieve the requisite wealth and power have a grand ritual conducted on their behalf which seals their bloodline so that members once dead cannot be resurrected by any means. Chaos would ensue if there were multiple contenders for various noble seats--it could even be used as a weapon against one's enemies--just break into their catacombs and resurrect two or three old kings or queens and then sit back and watch the fun. All you have to do is find someone resentful about how they passed and/or felt their work was left undone. You bring back famous King such-and-so and suddenly everyone has to decide if they want to follow their great historical leader or the not-so-notable guy currently on the throne. Instant civil war. To prevent this, even though it means nobody can come back even if the ceiling falls on them or an assassin gets through, is best for the kingdom (and for the game--having clerics bring back the death-prone prince every five minutes kills any tension about assassination plots, dangerous adventures, etc.)

[Darth_Versity]

Kinda old thread, but I'm curious if this has happened yet and how it played out so far.

I mean we have a group of level 5 characters.
None of them can rez the king.

If a group of people kill a King, won't....pretty much everyone be hunting them? At the least, the King's guards would be after them. And if they carried the body to a Church, do you think questions wouldn't be asked? They should be afraid, they should want to run. They shouldn't have the option to rez the King.

Once he's found by his people, there are a bunch of ways to not rez him. The main reason is him not wanting to come back. I like the idea of his soul not being able to come back because their house/name whatever is honor bound to serve their deity in death.

The PC's don't need to know this though.

I also like the idea of the PC's having a special weapon that drains his soul from his body much like a "magic jar" spell. They don't need to know that either. They kill him, soul goes to the weapon, body looks dead. Try to rez the body, not gonna work.

Or you can eliminate rez magic from the campaign, to be re-entered at a later date through a questline or something.

Lots of really good ideas in the thread. Wondering how things are playing out =P

Oh, and just sayin.....if it were me, upon character creation, I'd have them make ghost rolls. Have em roll a d20 and mark the result on their sheet. Don't tell them what it's for, and roll against it for your bad guys spell. Have the mindrape wear off in order(based on the difference between your two rolls) whenever you see fit.
That way nobody feels like there was nothing they could do (even though that's the case) to prevent this. Their rolls just were nowhere near enough to stop it.

No this hasn't happened yet, but we are just starting the game now. I expect it will take about 10 sessions to get to the point where they can kill the king, but how they do it I will leave to them.

They may even work out the truth before it comes to that, in which case i'll have them work with the king to track down the true lich. I could hide the ressurection magic and have them rediscover it as this is set in the FR just after the spell plague. That might be the best option.

[Malachei]

So in a game i'll be starting soon i'll have my PC's going after a king who has killed or destroyed nearly everything dear to them. When they finally kill him they will find out they were minraped/programmed amnesia and he was actually a very good king and the last defence between the evil that spreads across the land.

Now the only thing I cant explain is why this great king who is needed to save the world would just be ressurected and put back on his throne. I cant do away with life restoring magic as they will need it later, but at the same time I cant explain why powerful figures dont use it.

Any help?

The king could be an outsider. Which might open a campaign thread. You still have true resurrection, limited wish, etc. to deal with, but you raise dead, resurrection or reincarnation would not work.

Of course, plot shielding is another option: he comes from a line that could never be resurrected. No rules explanation given.

Finally, resurrection magic could be really rare and not be available on the market. IMC, resurrection is not available. There may be people who have the power, but it is not know and not an option. There's no market for it, but perhaps the player characters could find the ancient relic that does it.

[Douglas]

Is that only for one soul, or for anything it kills? Because if it's anything, that just means they keep performing evil deeds whenever they kill ANYTHING over and over and over and...

Works best if they're given to the whole party!
Anything, but each weapon can only hold one soul at a time. Each time it captures a new soul, the previous one is released.

Thinaun has several problems as a solution for this: they really should at least get a knowledge check to realize what they've got; if they do realize it, the result is to make resurrection cheaper rather than prevent it (having the soul so conveniently on hand cuts the material component cost in half); and even if they remain ignorant, it only prevents resurrection until they kill something else with the weapon.

[Psyren]

Not to mention, if they try to rez him and it doesn't work because his soul isn't around, the very first thing they're going to try is divination: "well, where is it?" Mistakenly believing that the missing soul is a plot hook. To which they'll get the answer "in the room with you, dumbasses!