Sorcerer and Wizard in Party

[tehhoods]

In a party with both a sorcerer and a wizard, what spells should they have at 1st level? I'm thinking battle control spells for the wizard since he can have a lot of them from the get go while the sorcerer takes blaster spells since he use them more often. This question is just for discussion's sake.

[sirpercival]

Neither one should take blasting spells (really), blasting is a subpar option.

[The Boz]

They should take blaster spells, or else your game will have two players and X spectators.

[Tr011]

It depends on the sorcerer. He may sorta specialize in something (i.e. he could take some metamagic and take some blasts, or he could go summoning). Then the sorcerer has his role and the wizard can take whatever is still needed (i.e. if the sorcerer takes some summoning/BFC spells, the wizard should take buffs, debuffs and party traveling).

[Wavelab]

Well if you want an awesome party:
-Sorcerer The Mailman!!! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer)
-Wizard God Build (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God)

But of course you are broken beyond believe. An awesome sorcerer tactic is to get celerity, greater arcane fusion, time stop, and force orb metamagiced.

When combat starts:
-Celerity.
-Time Stop.
-Greater Arcane Fusion(Orb of Force plus twin spell orb of force(arcane thesis) x number of times depending on how long time stop lasts.

I'm not the best at abusing the action economy but that trick works good enough for me.

[Randomguy]

I would say that the sorcerer should take some of the useful spells from the wizards prohibited school, so they've got max versatility.

There's no point for a sorcerer to load up on blasty spells, he could just take one every few spell levels and metamagic them, so he can blast decently when he wants to.

At level 1, I suggest the sorcerer take grow person ( a good buff that's good casting a few times each day) and the other depending on the players preference, either a good battlefield control (either grease, sleep or colour spray) or, if they like killing things directly, then either magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, burning hands or perhaps true strike.

The wizards should prepare a few spells that are useful but not worth recasting (for example, charm person if he didn't ban enchantment) as well as some battlefield control (whichever ones the sorcerer didn't take).

[Cruiser1]

When combat starts:
-Celerity.
-Time Stop.
-Greater Arcane Fusion(Orb of Force plus twin spell orb of force(arcane thesis) x number of times depending on how long time stop lasts.

That doesn't work, because your attacks and spells don't affect others while inside Time Stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm). However what you can do, is cast Greater Arcane Fusion, nuke with the 7th level spell slot, and use the 4th level spell slot to cast Celerity. Use Celerity to cast Greater Arcane Fusion again, in which you nuke and cast Celerity again. Repeat until enemy is dead, or until you run out of 8th/9th level spell slots (and 7th level spell slots, if you took the Versatile Spellcaster feat). Enemy dead within one of your turns, and you didn't even need to use Time Stop. :smallsmile:

[flumphy]

It depends on the sorcerer. He may sorta specialize in something (i.e. he could take some metamagic and take some blasts, or he could go summoning). Then the sorcerer has his role and the wizard can take whatever is still needed (i.e. if the sorcerer takes some summoning/BFC spells, the wizard should take buffs, debuffs and party traveling).

I agree. It doesn't really matter which roles they take as long as they coordinate their spell selection so as not to step on one another's toes.

[sirpercival]

They should take blaster spells, or else your game will have two players and X spectators.

Oh, I thought the OP meant a party of JUST a wizard and a sorcerer. Yes, with both of them optimized you can make the rest of a party largely irrelevant.

[tehhoods]

Some of you guys did read that I said 1st level right?

[Wavelab]

That doesn't work, because your attacks and spells don't affect others while inside Time Stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm). However what you can do, is cast Greater Arcane Fusion, nuke with the 7th level spell slot, and use the 4th level spell slot to cast Celerity. Use Celerity to cast Greater Arcane Fusion again, in which you nuke and cast Celerity again. Repeat until enemy is dead, or until you run out of 8th/9th level spell slots (and 7th level spell slots, if you took the Versatile Spellcaster feat). Enemy dead within one of your turns, and you didn't even need to use Time Stop. :smallsmile:

Whoops :smallbiggrin:

In that other D&D PSP game it worked... Damned game creators. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

The sorcerer should have versatile or reusable spells. The Summon Monster line is ideal for instance because you can get so many different things out of it. Blasting should not be underestimated either, there are plenty of good ways to blast and the sorcerer can do it better than anyone.

The Wizard can focus on battlefield control, especially spells you only need one of in a given fight (e.g. one glitterdust, one color spray.)

What schools did the Wizard ban? Since he has a sorcerer for backup, he should probably go Focused Specialist.

[tehhoods]

The sorcerer should have versatile or reusable spells. The Summon Monster line is ideal for instance because you can get so many different things out of it. Blasting should not be underestimated either, there are plenty of good ways to blast and the sorcerer can do it better than anyone.

The Wizard can focus on battlefield control, especially spells you only need one of in a given fight (e.g. one glitterdust, one color spray.)

What schools did the Wizard ban? Since he has a sorcerer for backup, he should probably go Focused Specialist.

Abjuration and Necromancy, specializing in Conjuration.

[sirpercival]

Is there a cleric in the party? Clerics can do Abjuration pretty well, and they have some necromancy overlap (though a lot of the debuffs are Wis/Sor only).

[Daftendirekt]

Some of you guys did read that I said 1st level right?

Apparently not, because none of them have yet to give you a useful answer. :smallconfused:

[prufock]

My picks at low levels:

Wizard (assuming 14 intelligence):
All 0-level spells, unless you specialize. Prep Read Magic, Ghost Sound, and Light.
Mage Armor (because you're squishy), Animate Rope (no-save entangle), Enlarge Person (for your fighter friend, if you have one), Obscuring Mist (for concealment), Grease (for laughs). Prep whichever you like.

Sorcerer:
Detect Magic, Mage Hand (useful in more situations than you might think), Ray of Frost/Acid Splash (minor damage/distraction), Prestidigitation (for fun).
Two of Ray of Enfeeblement (debuff), Summon Monster 1 (versatility), or Mage Armor.

I say Mage Armor for both because your spells per day are limited, it's only an hour duration, and they will probably both want it at level 1. At higher levels, one of them can trade out for something else.

Honorable mentions:
Magic Missile. At first level, 3.5 average damage isn't bad, and it auto-hits. I normally don't take it at first level, and usually just use it as a delivery method for Fell Drain, Fell Frighten, or Fell Weaken, which won't apply to you yet.
Power Word Pain. For a first level sorcerer, it's pretty sweet. Races of the Dragon.

[ericgrau]

They should both take battlefield control, or really whatever spells you would take anyway as the best options. The difference is the sorcerer should prepare only bread and butter spells that might be usable multiple times per day while the wizard should pick these plus a few oddball ones in his spellbook to "memorize tomorrow". For example if you only expect one encounter each session the wizard might take the haste since you only need 1, whereas the sorcerer might pick something also powerful but re-usable like web or sleet storm. The sorcerer should prepare the mage armor since he can cast it on both of them and still have lots of first level slots leftover (assuming this is level 4 or higher). Etc.

At first level you probably want sleep for both of them and then the wizard might swap it out for something else or take sleep + X. At higher levels the sorcerer swaps out sleep for ray of enfeeblement or something.

[soulchicken]

Grease is good, but it only lasts 1 round at level 1. Spray, sleep could be decent. The wizard can actually go with the blaster role with orbs of doom. The sorc can go with more batman type spells with a blast or summon spell here and there to backup the wizard if the wizard is otherwise occupied (grappled,tied up,knocked out)

[Draz74]

Power Word Pain. For a first level sorcerer, it's pretty sweet. Races of the Dragon.

It's "pretty sweet" to the point of brokenness for any class. It's probably the most overpowered 1st-level spell (for in-combat purposes) in the entire game.


Grease is good, but it only lasts 1 round at level 1.

The same complaint may be lodged against Summon Monster I.

[Flickerdart]

The Wizard should load up on spells like Identify or Comprehend Languages, which you will never prepare unless you have a use in mind. The actual spells he prepares are likely to be similar to the Sorcerer's. The Sorcerer, on the other hand, should grab spells that taper off in usefulness, because he gets to replace them for free or feed those slots into Versatile Spellcaster.

[Chronos]

Personally, I prefer Color Spray over Sleep, for a 1st-level mass save-or-incapacitate. The full-round casting time for Sleep gives enemies time to either charge you and disrupt it, or run out of the range and make you waste a spell.

My first choices of first-level spells, though, would be Charm Person and Silent Image. Charm Person will usually get one enemy out of a fight, and with a good Charisma (so probably better for the sorc than for the wizard), can even get that enemy fighting on your side. And it's also useful outside of combat: Use it to talk a guard into letting you into the castle, or to interrogate a prisoner after a fight, or the like.

Silent Image, meanwhile, like most illusions, is tremendously versatile. Often, making others think something is happening is nearly as good as actually making it happen. And if nothing else, you can make an illusion of black orbs around peoples' heads, or the like, to blind them for as long as you keep concentrating.

The best debuff you have available at first level is probably Ray of Enfeeblement. If you're lucky, you can weaken an enemy so much that they'll be over their encumbrance limit, and nearly immobilized. It doesn't have much use outside combat, though.

Meanwhile, if your wizard is specializing in conjuration, you'll need at least one good conjuration spell. Both Grease and Summon Monster I will be useful later on, but both are pretty limited with a duration of only a single round. Obscuring Mist can sometimes come in handy, but has the drawback that it affects you, too, so it's mostly only good for escaping for a fight (though, admittedly, that's not something to take lightly at first level), and can be largely duplicated by Silent Image. And Mount and Unseen Servant are decent utility spells, but not until you have enough slots that you don't mind wasting a few first-levels. So that leaves Mage Armor, which isn't too glamorous, but is always useful.

[nedz]

I had great fun playing a 1st level gnome sorceror with Colour Spray and Silent Image recently. Spamming CS is not to be underestimated. Unbeknownst to me however the party's Wizard was a Gnome Illusion specialist. When this combo works it is quite spectacular, when it doesn't however, you are screwed :smallbiggrin:
Still that does give an opening for the rest of the party.:smallcool:

[Flickerdart]

The nice thing about Sleep is that you can cast it from far away, whereas Colour Spray has that unfortunate 15ft range.

[Godskook]

Wizard: There's a spell for that.
Sorcerer: This spell works on everything!

For the Sorcerer, focus on always-useful spells that he'll never regret having or using, and try to versatilize on the way up. You can afford a few choice picks that are 'just for now' along the way, thanks to the relearning the mechanic.

For the Wizard, grab more situationally useful spells. Resist Energy is a good choice, as is color spray if you're level 1. Make sure to grab a few staples, but you're responsible for neutering the random non-standard monster X the DM decides to throw at the party, especially if you guys know its coming.

[Tonal Architect]

Isn't grease prone to producing friendly fire, therefore negating any beneficial flat-footediness goodies associated with the spell?

[Flickerdart]

Isn't grease prone to producing friendly fire, therefore negating any beneficial flat-footediness goodies associated with the spell?
The area of Grease is remarkably small, so it's quite simple to place it in such a way as to avoid hitting friendlies.

[jaybird]

As said above, the Wizard should be picking up random utilities that come in handy when you'd least expect them to. Sorcerer should be getting either Grease or Color Spray, and Summon Monster.

[ericgrau]

The summon monsters are rather bad spells except for utility or with feats to boost them, I'm curious why it's recommended here.

At first level both summon monster and grease are too short, but later grease is ok.

[Wings of Peace]

I never felt like the super early level Sorcerer and Wizard were terribly different. But then this is because for me levels 1 & 2 tend to consist largely of color spray and firing my crossbow.

[Wavelab]

The sorcerer should really have Magic Missile and Melf's Acid Arrow if you want blasting.

[ericgrau]

The sorcerer should have generally useful spells. Why pick such horrible blasty spells for him that are only good for the rare resistant foes? The wizard should maybe prepare those, or the sorcerer perhaps as backups in a few levels after he has real spells.