D&D 3.5e Two Weapon fighting Munchkin

[Campbellk8105]

I'm posting this hoping someone will give me a crazy munchkin build.

I want a two weapon fighter build, human, uses 2 scimitars. Cash is absolute, so equip with any and everything to max him. Also has 40 levels to use. Any book from 3.5 is acceptable. Please reply as soon as possible, thanks everyone!

[Gavinfoxx]

Would you like fries with that?

Hint: You have committed several faux pas and broken several taboos in this post, and you are likely to get troll answers.

[Zaq]

Some of you may know my stock answer to this. If you do, feel free to sing along.

As a wise man once said, you must have a ride before it can be pimped.

[Chambers]

Human Scout 20/Dervish 10/Tempest 5/Occult Slayer 5.

Scout & Tempest are in Complete Adventurer, Dervish & Occult Slayer are in Complete Warrior.

You end up with the best two weapon fighting in the game (aside from Tiger Claw discipline). Tempest reduces the penalties to 0 and Dervish & Skirmish from Scout add up for lots of attacks and damage.

You also get some useful immunities and utility abilities. Scout has Hide in Plain Sight, Blindsight, and Freedom of Movement. Occult Slayer gets you Nondetection and the more important Blank Thoughts ability: "Immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, patterns, phantasms, and morale effects."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Lightning Warrior is the best base class for a TWF character, but that doesn't say much for TWF since it sacrifices so much power for flavor/RP.

[Gavinfoxx]

Lightning Warrior is the best base class for a TWF character, but that doesn't say much for TWF since it sacrifices so much power for flavor/RP.

*Giggles uncontrollably*

[sirpercival]

Tempest is a trap... also, any reason to do Scout 20 and not a swift hunter build?

With 40 levels, you're an epic character so to be effective you really need SOME sort of spellcasting. Mystic ranger gives you a bit, at least.

[Gavinfoxx]

To be useful, if ANY character in the game has this feat, ALL characters of level 21 and up need to have the feat 'Epic Spellcasting', which means they have to be full casters... so there's that...

[Aharon]

Cash is absolute? What do you mean with that?

Other than that, take Jack B. Quick and add 20 levels of whatever you want on top.
It's pre ToB, but has the advantage of not only giving the build, but a feat breakdown and 30 pages of discussion: Found here (file:///C:/Users/Benedict%20Schau/Desktop/Documents/Freizeit/Rollenspiele/DnD/Internet-Tips/6_hits_to_1%20_Jack_B._Quick.htm).

@Gavinfoxx
only true if it isn't used RAW. RAW, every epic spell you develop needs DM approval. This makes it totally campaign and DM dependent.

[soulchicken]

wizard 5/swiftblade 10/warblade 4/swash 3/jade phoenix mage 10/eternal blade 8

Int to ac, spells, damage. Just take a couple metamagic feats and two weapon fighting feats.

should also get you full level 9 spells and manuevers.

I'm not a huge optimizer, but I'd bet this would be alright.

[Seerow]

I hear pun-pun is pretty good at TWFing.

[Doc Roc]

So the thing to remember is that you need to get your bab and caster levels lined up early. Then you can drink deep of insanity's wellspring.
1) Forty Levels is truly a lot of levels.
2) Swiftblade is hilariously great.
3) Telekinesis is like two weapon fighting, right?

[Aharon]

3) Telekinesis is like two weapon fighting, right?

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Thanks for the laugh

[Rubik]

If you want to be a munchkin, ignore the rulebooks, write whatever numbers you think would kill anything at any level, and don't bother rolling -- just say you kill stuff.

Because munchkins are cheaters, and you want to cheat if you want a munchkin.

[tyckspoon]

Cash is absolute? What do you mean with that?


He's level 40. If it's non-Epic, he can have it (level 40 official wealth is 13.6 million. So basically anything without the Epic surcharge and about half the Epic stuff is viable options, although most Epic items aren't worth anywhere near as much as they cost- best you might want is +6 base enhancement on the weapons to easily manage DR/Epic.)

Dragonfire Inspiration would be the base of this for me. There's enough levels and feats to do a full Sonic optimized inspire courage and stack in Warblade and Paladin.. use Cha for *everything*. Snowflake Wardance feat, Slippers of Battledancing, Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (fire damage, so not terribly useful in a lot of Epic, but what the hey they're cheap), take Paladin deep enough to get Turn Undead and use it for Travel Devotion to activate the Slippers. Maybe dip Swordsage and then use Ascetic Mage to convert that to Cha to AC as well.

So you'd get.. Cha twice to hit replacing Str (Slippers + Snowflake), twice to damage replacing Str (Slippers and then as fire from the Gauntlets), once to AC (Swordsage AC bonus swapped with Ascetic Mage- there's probably a way to stack this once or twice more, but most of the ways I can think of to do it require being an LA race.) and once to all saves (Paladin.) Your Cha should be somewhere in the 50s at least, depending on how much you want to spend on it/whether or not you can acquire any good cha-boosting templates.

[Gavinfoxx]

Doesnt snowflake require one handed weapons with an empty hand?

[ranagrande]

Druid 6/Nature's Warrior 4/Invisible Blade 5/Daggerspell Shaper 10/Master of Many Forms 10/Lion of Talisid 5

[Keinnicht]

Wizard 40.

I'm certain with that build you'll be able to make the best possible TW Fighter.

Unless epic spellcasting is banned, in which case go with one of these other guys' suggestions.

[Campbellk8105]

When I say cash is absolute I mean cash is not an issue. I suppose munchkin isn't the right term, I would just like an optimized TWF. 40 levels is a lot but the campaigns I play in last a fairly long time, and we do get high levels. We also don't do low stats. What we do is roll 1d10+10, 10 times and take the best 6. So having a powerful character for us is common.

[Rubik]

If you were mistaken about wanting to be a cheater, go after a high-manifester level psychoactive skin of proteus and/or grab a shapeshifting class and/or grab a shapeshifting race.

The best TWF is the one you do with natural weapons.

[Gavinfoxx]

OP: Do you have any idea about the greater theory of the D&D 3.5 system at all? what it can do? What epic spellcasting can do? What spellcasters in GENERAL can do, and what melee non spellcasting focused characters CAN'T do in comparison?

Ability scores do not a powerful character make! Spells make a powerful character!

In other words, compared to that guy who makes melee attack rolls, spellcasters are actually playing a completely different game...

[Campbellk8105]

Oh no doubt spellcasting is great, with telekinesis and what not. My friend is making a spellcaster, and my friends and I have made some pretty wicked melee characters. Was just seeing what other input people have and what amazing builds they come up with.

[Gavinfoxx]

Amazing? Eh, melee characters can be decent, I suppose. If there is a spellcaster in the party, non-spellcasters they won't hold a candle past level 21, though, if Epic Spellcasting is in the game. Some would say past level 15...

The thing is, at that point, spellcasting can do melee's job and then some since long ago!

[ranagrande]

Yeah, pretty much. That's why, among other things, the build I posted above would have epic druid spellcasting.

[Campbellk8105]

Yes spellcasting is great, but with one of the people in my campaign using the magic user doesn't really know which is up and which is down. But, in most of my campaigns magic can play a big role but, melee still plays a big role in our campaigns with various magic items and spells to buff them.

[tyckspoon]

Doesnt snowflake require one handed weapons with an empty hand?

Nope. People like to read in that restriction, but it's not there- the actual text is "you add your Charisma
modifier to your attack rolls with any slashing melee
weapon you wield in one hand." First hand? A slashing melee weapon in one hand. Second hand? Also a slashing melee weapon in one hand.

[nedz]

Wizard 20/Druid 20.

I'm certain with that build you'll be able to make the best possible TW Fighter.

...

FTFY :smallbiggrin:
The only equipment you really need is a quarterstaff, the rest is gravy.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes spellcasting is great, but with one of the people in my campaign using the magic user doesn't really know which is up and which is down. But, in most of my campaigns magic can play a big role but, melee still plays a big role in our campaigns with various magic items and spells to buff them.


You are saying melee as if it's not spellcasters doing the melee or making sure that melee gets done (one way or another), correct? That is the assumption?

If that is true in your games, then your games are really, really, really, really, really low power level... despite what you might think.

[Campbellk8105]

In most of my campaigns, the magic users dont use telekinesis a whole lot, and no they don't do the melee fighting. Like I said before, they may aid by casting buffs on the melee characters but they themselves don't tend to get into the fray close range. One of the more powerful set of characters was (in a general sense) a high spellcaster and her partner was a warden to her. So he got all her saves, he was also a knight so natural 1's meant nothing. He had major spell resistance (10+1 per level), and a ring of elemental immunity. Now I know there is more stuff that can still affect him/them but IMO that was a good duo of characters.

[Gavinfoxx]

And you haven't yet noticed that all the best buffs are personal range, then? Also, you are calling the actual Knight class powerful, then?

...Yes, you have very very very very very low optimization, low power games... you just happen to have some high treasure options, but it's treasure that doesn't dramatically change the way characters play the game...

[Campbellk8105]

The knight class being powerful, no, does it have some handy class abilities, yes. And it seems to me that to you, unless you're a spellcaster, your character is bound to be fairly worthless in comparison to a spellcaster. Again, I say spellcasters are powerful but, I do not think that a melee fighter is pretty much bound to fail against one.

[Randomguy]

Some feats to take: Oversized two weapon fighting and monkey grip let you dual wield weapons that are a size bigger than your size category, and they don't have to be light weapons (so you can dual wield scimitars without penalty for their not being light weapons). If you can get a magic item that gives you constant girallon's blessing than you can do 4 weapon fighting or two weapon fighting with 2handed weapons. If you're a three-kreen (You have enough levels to afford level adjustment) than you can get 4 arms to start with, and girallons blessing gives you 6 arms total, so you can wield 3 two handed weapons or 6 one handed weapons.

Having greater enlarge person cast on you is also a good idea. If you wield bludgeoning weapons instead of scimitars, you can have someone cast greater mighty wallop on each weapon so they do tons of extra damage.

If you choose to wield lots of weapons (via extra hands from girallon's blessing) then it's a good idea to focus on critical hits, so get tons of enhancements that increase your crit range and tons of weapon enhancements that activate on a critical hit. (cursespewing, enervating, the like). Make them both weapons of speed for extra attacks.

Try and get sneak attack as high as you can, since the more attacks you get the more sneak attacks you get.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, no, Totemists and Warblades and such are still USEFUL next to them... somewhat. I'd say they wouldn't be useful at epic levels if Epic Spellcasting is in play, though... Is Epic Spellcasting going to be used in this game?

Also, NEVER TAKE MONKEY GRIP EVER. And if you are set on dual wielding scimitars, realize that wotc has a huge massive HATE on the idea of this being a viable thing to do, and puts feat tax after massive feat tax on it, and requiring you to do loads of things to just keep up, rather than actually be good or do something new. You keep on running faster and faster just to stay in place...

[Weezer]

Campbellk, I'd recommend not using any of the builds presented here. Not because they're bad builds, but rather because they are too good. When you ask for an optimized epic build on this board you are going to get one that will be able to take the game and snap it over it's knees before turning back to eating tea and crumpets. I don't think you want that.

Telekenisis is hardly ever used by optimized spellcasters, Doc Roc was making a funny. And the fact that you didn't even pick up on that is a reason not to introduce any of these builds into your group. Your group seems so innocent and nice, with the wizards not dominating, the fighters getting buffed and everyone being happy with way things are, it'd be a shame if we ruined it for ya.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

And you haven't yet noticed that all the best buffs are personal range, then? Also, you are calling the actual Knight class powerful, then?

...Yes, you have very very very very very low optimization, low power games... you just happen to have some high treasure options, but it's treasure that doesn't dramatically change the way characters play the game...
Even if he's playing a very very very very low-op game... SO WHAT? He's having fun with it. Who are you to tell him that he's doing anything wrong? He's asking for a good build for a melee(/mundane) character. That the spellcasters are more powerful is IRRELEVANT. The OP already said that he knows that. :smallannoyed:

@ Weezer
But you do realize that a spellcaster (especially epic) can dominate or brake the game even accidentally?

[Gavinfoxx]

Anarchy: Mostly because he hasn't answered if Epic Spellcasting is in play, yet...

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Anarchy: Mostly because he hasn't answered if Epic Spellcasting is in play, yet...
The caster PC isn't very experienced (at least that's what I understand from OPs posts) so you can assume that he either didn't take ES, or won't know how to use it competently.
I would worry more about the higher level spells and not ES.

[Gavinfoxx]

Anarchy:

Also, his language is a bit... odd. If he had asked, "Hi there, I am interested in having as viable a build as possible for epic play, which is not a full caster and does not use Epic Spellcasting. I'm okay with a partial spellcaster, and I would like to use two single handed curved slashing weapons -- kukri, scimitar, cutlass, things like that. I suppose claws and multiattack would be okay, but I want to steer away from that idea as much as possible, and go for a weapon master. What is the best way to enable such a character to be useful late into epic, while maintaining as 'mundane' a feel as possible? Assume money is no object for this particular character. Yes, I know Spellcasters Win at this level, I want to do this as a challenge to myself. The game has thus far been low optimization, but I expect the skills of the players to possibly grow.", then I wouldn't be as worried...

[Weezer]

@ Weezer
But you do realize that a spellcaster (especially epic) can dominate or brake the game even accidentally?

Oh I certainly do, but he apparently isn't having this problem in his group. I don't see how it can be so, but that seems to be the case.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Also, his language is a bit... odd. If he had asked, "Hi there, I am interested in having as viable a build as possible for epic play, which is not a full caster and does not use epic spellcasting. I'm okay with a partial spellcaster, and I would like to use two single handed curved slashing weapons -- kukri, scimitar, cutlass, things like that. What is the best way to enable such a character to be useful late into epic, while maintaining as 'mundane' a feel as possible? Assume money is no object."
For me the OP is talking about a normal meleer. He used the word "Fighter" and "Two-Weapon Fighting", right? Until he will specify that any class/thing (including spellcasting) goes, I'm assuming mundane meleer. You should too.


Oh I certainly do, but he apparently isn't having this problem in his group. I don't see how it can be so, but that seems to be the case.
"Isn't having now" and "won't have ever" are two different things.

[Gavinfoxx]

The fact that he used the language he DID is what worried me. Using Fighter and Two Weapon Fighting and Level 40 and Scimitar and so on and so forth -- that got me significantly worried that he was going to get proverbially run over by a train at some point in this game. If he had said something closer to what I said, I wouldn't be so worried for him, as it implies a bit more experience and foresight.. hence me trying to give him warnings that he was going to get run over...

note: edited my 'language' post a few posts back.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

The fact that he used the language he DID is what worried me. Using Fighter and Two Weapon Fighting and Level 40 and Scimitar and so on and so forth -- that got me significantly worried that he was going to get proverbially run over by a train at some point in this game. If he had said something closer to what I said, I wouldn't be so worried for him, as it implies a bit more experience and foresight.. hence me trying to give him warnings that he was going to get run over...
And he acknowledged it by saying that he knows that spells/spellcasters are more powerful. Have a little faith in him. If he is mistaken it will be his problem, not yours and he will learn from his mistake, hopefully.

[Campbellk8105]

I suppose I should have mentioned this earlier. The reason for making this character is to be a bad guy in an upcoming campaign. Magic users aren't a big issue typically in my campaigns due to the fact that only a few of us like/know how to play one. So our campaigns are mainly melee fighters of all sorts. I know first hand how broken spellcasters can get based on a character my DM made. He made the combo of the spellcaster and her warden. Albeit the spellcaster would wipe the floor with him, he was still a very scary character in comparison to our other melee characters.

[Campbellk8105]

Telekinesis is hardly ever used by optimized spellcasters, Doc Roc was making a funny. And the fact that you didn't even pick up on that is a reason not to introduce any of these builds into your group. Your group seems so innocent and nice, with the wizards not dominating, the fighters getting buffed and everyone being happy with way things are, it'd be a shame if we ruined it for ya.

Yes, I know telekinesis is rarely used. I've only had it be used once in a campaign and it was used by a high level caster to mock a lower level melee character in our group. Why waste your time with telekinesis when (one of the spells we made) cone of oblivion can be used. Fort save or die. If you save you still take 1d6 per caster level.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ah, BBEG. BBEG are a bit differently made than player characters -- enemies need more access to 'no, that doesn't immediately kill me right now', and more access to the action economy and more access to things which can affect a whole party and such. In other words, they should be doing things that are different than just standing around full attacking whomever might be within five feet of them...

[Campbellk8105]

Oh I know, my friend is making a spellcaster as his partner. He's going to be an annoying reoccurring NPC. I was just told to make him and that money was not an issue and his weapons of choice were scimitars. I think he might be an evil king in the campaign but I'm not positive.

[brujon]

Eh... 40 levels? Just do Wizard5/Abj Champ5/Io7FV 7/Warblade 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Swiftblade 10

Preferably take JPM and Swiftblade levels before epic so you advance your BAB more. You'll have the 3 TOP gish prestige classes progressed to full, Io7FV + Abj Champ means you have insane defense, combine with Iron Heart Surge from warblade, and rolling concentration in place of every save, plus having FREE ACTION TIME STOP and nearly constant haste... Plus Violet Veil blocks incoming spells. You can also fit in levels of Archmage so you can shape an Antimagic Field around yourself, and depend on conjuration spells and personal buffs + melee attacks. You will outshine any meleer. Swiftblade gives you an EXTRA STANDARD ACTION. IT's 3.0 HASTE.

[Aharon]

He's level 40. If it's non-Epic, he can have it (level 40 official wealth is 13.6 million. So basically anything without the Epic surcharge and about half the Epic stuff is viable options, although most Epic items aren't worth anywhere near as much as they cost- best you might want is +6 base enhancement on the weapons to easily manage DR/Epic.)


Yes, that sure is nice. But it's still limited, you still have to think about what you buy. Example: with truly unlimited wealth, you would buy 6 tomes +5 for each of your stats for 825k. With WBL 13.6 million, that's 6% of your wealth gone, so you will likely only buy those that boost the stats you need.

I didn't really make that clear, I guess - I wanted to know wether it's some sort of chain-binding based game, where wealth is truly unlimited, or wether he meant a really high limit. Sorry for not making my point stand out.

[DoctorGlock]

Eh... 40 levels? Just do Wizard5/Abj Champ5/Io7FV 7/Warblade 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Swiftblade 10

Preferably take JPM and Swiftblade levels before epic so you advance your BAB more. You'll have the 3 TOP gish prestige classes progressed to full, Io7FV + Abj Champ means you have insane defense, combine with Iron Heart Surge from warblade, and rolling concentration in place of every save, plus having FREE ACTION TIME STOP and nearly constant haste... Plus Violet Veil blocks incoming spells. You can also fit in levels of Archmage so you can shape an Antimagic Field around yourself, and depend on conjuration spells and personal buffs + melee attacks. You will outshine any meleer. Swiftblade gives you an EXTRA STANDARD ACTION. IT's 3.0 HASTE.

This. If it's a BBEG this is the only change he has of surviving past the pre-first round.
Alternately, to possibly keep up with the action economy...
Ardent 10/Ranger 4/Slayer 10/Sanctified Mind 6/Metamind 10 or something similar. Mantles: Time, Mental Might, Freedom, Magic. Dominant Ideal: Time and substitute power, make sure everything he manifests ever is linked to a synchronicity and have his schism manifest Timeless Body. Give him Supernatural Transformation (psionic manifesting qualifies) and have him use psychic reformation to swap dominant mantles and powers whenever he wants as well as use Reality Revision at no cost. Metamind 10 ensures he never runs out of PP. With reformation and substitute power you can give him a list of whatever powers he could ever possibly want. Psionic Lion's Charge with your multi scimitars is kind of lame but it gives some damage, especially after you have ego whipped the enemy into submission after shattering their mind blanks and have upwards of 8 turns per turn (which technically doubles every turn)

Depending on how you interpret the magic mantle, you can even extraordinary spell aim a null psionics field around him so he sits in a "lol, can't touch this" bubble

[Campbellk8105]

Also another character I need is a level 30 character, and I would like it to be monk based.

[Gavinfoxx]

Psst. the language thing. You should say something closer to 'unarmed, unarmored, ascetic, humanoid martial arts combatant' based rather than 'monk'. It helps, really.

Anyway, Monk2/ArdentX with Tashalatora, or Monk2/Psychic WarriorX with Tashalatora, or Unarmed Swordsage. Or I guess someone will come up with a cleric-based build which uses that monk/cleric prestige class...

[DoctorGlock]

Also another character I need is a level 30 character, and I would like it to be monk based.

...Am I missing subtle sarcasm?

Monk 4/Ardent 26. Same as above with tashalatora feat.

[Campbellk8105]

He is a LG monk, unarmed fighter, no psionic or spellcaster levels. Any other builds offered?

[Campbellk8105]

Race human, I want some levels in monk, other classes would be appreciated.

[brujon]

Race human, I want some levels in monk, other classes would be appreciated.

Monk 2/Swordsage 18/Kensai 10

Simple but effective. Alternatively, just get 20 levels in unarmed swordsage to get the dual boost ability. Really, dude... If you want help, you have to ask properly:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27743257/We_are_not_your_DM.

If you didn't want psionics, you should've gone up and said: "My DM dislikes Psionics" or "I don't want psionics" up front. Give us a list of sources that are allowed. State your goals for the build. Are you married to the monk levels? Your idea is to use your fists as weapons, or are you open to other kinds of natural attacks? Are variants/flaws allowed? Setting Specific books? 3rd party material? Dragon Magazine? Etc... Etc...

Building a level 30 character is a lot of work, and with that little information, we can only do so much as recommend a few classes here and a few feats there.

[Randomguy]

If there's no psionics or spellcasting levels, then monk 2/unarmed swordsage 28 would probably be your best bet.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If there's no psionics or spellcasting levels, then monk 2/unarmed swordsage 28 would probably be your best bet.

No epic level swordsage.

Unarmed wordsage 10/warblade 10/unarmed swordsage +10.

[DoctorGlock]

No epic level swordsage.

Unarmed wordsage 10/warblade 10/unarmed swordsage +10.

Unarmed Swordsage 20/Warblade 10 would let the warblade start with higher maneuvers because of the half IL thing.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Unarmed Swordsage 20/Warblade 10 would let the warblade start with higher maneuvers because of the half IL thing.

Less base attack bonus. Although I suppose that isn't much compared to the higher level Iron Heart stuff.

[DoctorGlock]

Less base attack bonus. Although I suppose that isn't much compared to the higher level Iron Heart stuff.

ow, forgot about that
swordsage 12/warblade 4/Swordsage 4/warblade 6 will get you BAB 16 before the epic cut off and 9th swordsage stuff pre 20 as well as having the last warblade levels benefit from sage IL

[Gavinfoxx]

Race human, I want some levels in monk, other classes would be appreciated.

You do know that WotC basically came out with AT LEAST two ways to be a Monk without actually being a Monk class? In other words, direct replacements for the Monk Class for the same flavor and archetype? Basically, 'like Monk, but better'? They realized people weren't having fun playing the Monk because it was two weak, so they made actual 'more awesome' replacements that can basically do everything the Monk can do?

That's why I said the 'unarmed, unarmored, ascetic, humanoid martial arts combatant' thing. You could add 'Mystic' or 'Wuxia' there too if you want... is that what you want, or is the Monk CLASS what you want? If so, why do you want the CLASS in particular, especially if there are other classes that do the same thing but better (ie, more competently)?

[Campbellk8105]

Again, these are for NPC's for my friends upcoming campaign. I told him straight monk sucks in comparison to what you could do with 30 levels. Me personally, I'd have him act like a "Monk," but his classes would vary.

[Gavinfoxx]

So what exactly was his reply to that statement? Did he believe you? How did you explain that monk sucks and that there are direct replacements? What 'job' did he give you, then?

[navar100]

20 Warblade/20 Swordsage

Have access to every discipline except Devoted Spirit. Mix and match maneuvers as you see fit. Time Stands Still with Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip in Blood in the Water stance is nice start. Granted, a 20th level Warblade could do that, but you can never have too many maneuvers. Use Swordsage for the Diamond Mind saving throw maneuvers and still have plenty left over. Shadow Hand is good for Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink.

[Campbellk8105]

I did not tell him the variants because I myself don't know much about them. Otherwise when I told him straight monk sucks in comparison to other fighters, I did point out some of the neat things they get and can do but that a straight 30 level monk is going to get whomped on compared to a monk mixed with other classes or not really use monk at all but he said he wanted the straight 30 levels in monk so I left it at that.

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay, so would you like a packaged five minute educational speech about how and why monks suck to give to him, and what alternatives there are? How you can make a better than monk character who gets all of the abilities of monk, with no levels in monk even in core (it uses Blackguard, fyi...)? Something to just stand and read to him, then? How Monk has several not immediately obvious flaws, and doesn't work as well in practice as one might think? That just because it has a lot of abilities that SOUND awesome doesn't mean that the math is there?

[Midnight_v]

Okay, so would you like a packaged five minute educational speech about how and why monks suck to give to him, and what alternatives there are? How you can make a better than monk character who gets all of the abilities of monk, with no levels in monk even in core (it uses Blackguard, fyi...)? Something to just stand and read to him, then? How Monk has several not immediately obvious flaws, and doesn't work as well in practice as one might think? That just because it has a lot of abilities that SOUND awesome doesn't mean that the math is there?
I'm amazed that you're actually trying to spin straw into gold. . .

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm not saying that I would write one up exactly, but you can find whole tons of links to rants to that effect with a really minimal amount of searching. You'd just have to package them into a single speech and get it in under 5 minutes.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Gavin, he already said that it's set in stone. Why are you so insistent? :smallannoyed: Don't force on him your own opinion, dude. Chill out a little. It's not like it will somehow make your life harder or anything...

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm hoping its sandstone.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

{{scrubbed}}

[Hiro Protagonest]

{{scrubbed}}

We could give him a lot of fair points about why monks suck to show his DM. And I would help with that.

[Gavinfoxx]

We were all newbies once. It doesn't help that lots of the things which we are socially trained to think look the coolest ("Wow, wuxia martial artists! Wow, characters wielding huge gigantic swords in each hand! Wow, crazy races with wings and tails and stuff!") happen to work the worst in D&D 3.5e. There are lots of things that are hideously not intuitive to watch out for.

[Aharon]

I think you could actually make a halfway decent monk:

Fighter 2/Monk 18 (or, in this case, 28).

Forget about unarmed, get EWP: Spiked Chain, have a +1 Ki focus (+ whatever other enhancements you want) spiked chain, and use stunning fist via your spiked chain for decent battlefield control when enlarged: Tripping AND stunning.
Of course, you will wear heavy armor.

This gets rid of your MAD, you only need STR and CON, and still get the decent defensive abilities of the monk (SR, immunity to poison, immunity to diseases, all good saves).

I think it can compete with fighter based builds, and if you invest lots of op-fu, maybe (really only maybe!) with stronger melee builds.

To preserve the monk flavor, give your spiked chain a fluffy, nunchaku-based asian name and describe your character as achieving his battlefield prowess through his training in the monastery and how his strength comes from hours of meditative sessions à la yoga or Kum Nye.

Caveat: It won't work if there are any Tier 1 or 2 characters in the group played to their full potential, but the OP already said this isn't the case.