Do sorcerers choose their spells known?

[Chronos]

Yes, yes, obviously the player chooses, but I'm asking about the character. For comparison, the player also chooses (to at least some extent) the character's ability scores, and things like whether the character has the appropriate lineage to be a sorcerer, or the call to be a paladin, and those are things that are explicitly not chosen by the character. Do sorcerer spells work the same way?

I've got a mental image of a sorcerer who just wants to be able to summon unicorns and rainbows, but no matter how hard he tries, he always ends up getting demons and negative energy instead.

[umbergod]

Yes, yes, obviously the player chooses, but I'm asking about the character. For comparison, the player also chooses (to at least some extent) the character's ability scores, and things like whether the character has the appropriate lineage to be a sorcerer, or the call to be a paladin, and those are things that are explicitly not chosen by the character. Do sorcerer spells work the same way?

I've got a mental image of a sorcerer who just wants to be able to summon unicorns and rainbows, but no matter how hard he tries, he always ends up getting demons and negative energy instead.

since its inherent magic, i would say the character does not, but i could be wrong. its not like a wizard choosing which spells to scribe into his spellbook

[sirpercival]

That is hilarious. It's begging to be a (slightly refluffed) malconvoker.

[Flickerdart]

A Sorcerer could never summon Unicorns (they're SNA).

[sirpercival]

A Sorcerer could never summon Unicorns (they're SNA).

Dammit, don't step on his dreams with your rules!

And if you use variant summoning lists, then maybe he could. :P

[Urpriest]

A Sorcerer could never summon Unicorns (they're SNA).

Melf's Unicorn Arrow begs to differ.

[Gavinfoxx]

Isn't there a unicorn arrow spell or something?

Edit: CURSE YOU SWORDSAGES.

[Zaq]

I'd say that they probably don't choose their early powers, but they're likely to choose (or at least consciously influence) their later powers, once they've got a solid grasp on how magic (or at least THEIR magic) works. They might not know the specifics of any given spell before they learn it, but they probably know that they want a spell that's, for example, good at tricking people and providing distractions . . . hey, check it out, Major Image! Sweet!

I wouldn't object to a player fluffing it differently, though. My Sorc isn't your Sorc.

[Flickerdart]

Melf's Unicorn Arrow begs to differ.
Isn't that just the horn?

[Urpriest]

Isn't that just the horn?

Hilariously enough, the fluff says the rest of it comes along for the ride, albeit in ghostly form. This makes the idea of aiming multiple ones at a single target...amusing.

[Zaq]

Yup, MUA shoots unicorns. Lots of them.

I was once in a party with a sorcerer who used to use Ocular Spell with Melf's Unicorn Arrow to shoot unicorns out of her eyes. That usually got a reaction.

[hamishspence]

I thought The Giant's S-Men sorcerer strip in Start of Darkness was pretty hilarious:

(Cyclops lookalike): "Scorching Ray!"
(Storm lookalike): "Control Weather!"
(Colossus lookalike): "Iron Body, comrade!"
(Jean Grey lookalike): "Telekinesis! And sometimes Fireball!"
(Wolverine lookalike): "Wait, are sorcerers even proficient in these things?"

Maybe take a leaf out of that idea, and have Sorcerers as mutants, "discovering" their own mutant powers?

[AmberVael]

There's one line of text I would like to bring up in regards to this:

"With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of."

Now, it's vague, its a bit more mechanic than fluff, but it does imply that you might establish some kind of control over what spells you learn, even if it isn't direct.


That said, I think that you could make a character either way, even within the context of the same world or game. Either seems perfectly feasible and reasonable to me.

[Tenno Seremel]

They can even switch spells at some levels. Pretty sure that means they choose.

[AmberVael]

Well, not necessarily. Maybe some powers could just fade away and others blossom without their control.

[Keinnicht]

Well, not necessarily. Maybe some powers could just fade away and others blossom without their control.

True, although it'd be a pretty odd coincidence if the only powers that faded away were the ones they didn't use any more, and the only new powers were ones that were much more useful.

[Tenno Seremel]

Well, not necessarily. Maybe some powers could just fade away and others blossom without their control.

You wake up in the morning. That spell you so love, I believe it's called Magic Missile, is now gone. You now have access to Erase spell instead. Ouch…

[Chronos]

Hm, yes, the replacing of spells is a bit problematic for this idea. On the other hand, most sorcerers folks actually build have some sort of theme to them, and both the replaced spells and new ones end up fitting into that theme somehow. You could fluff that as those sorts of spells (whatever that sort is) just being what the sorcerer has a natural aptitude for, so the same thing would happen to a sorcerer who (in character) would really prefer to get some other spell.

[Andreaz]

It's not problematic at all. As you change yourself, so does your spell selection. It requires just as much explanation as the learning new spells bit: The player chose it to be this way.

[Calanon]

Hilariously enough, the fluff says the rest of it comes along for the ride, albeit in ghostly form. This makes the idea of aiming multiple ones at a single target...amusing.

What book is this from... if you don't mind me asking :smalltongue:

I always figured Sorcerer spells just manifested like Mutant powers from Marvel... like the night before you go to bed you look on the news to see that a group of sorcerers just attacked an R&D facility trying to cure them of there affliction and when you wake up the next morning you smell smoke and your bed is on fire... congrats you learned your first spell... call it "Burning Hands" or the next day during gym class that guy that is always picking on you suddenly wants to pick a fight and when you stretch out your hand a ray of black energy shoots out infront of everyone and the bully feels weakened... call it "Ray of Enfeeblment" or during that same gym class you are leaping up to try a slam dunk but knowing your previous experience you'll probably fail (Being the most popular kid in class doesn't mean your the best at physical stuff) however you feel a bit more strength in your legs and leap up and do a perfect slam dunk... with you also flying through the hoop WITH the ball... call it "Jump"

Anyway this is all how I've always imagined Sorcerers getting there spells... Unfortunately Professor X is a wizard though... ah well :smallannoyed:

[Belril Duskwalk]

True, although it'd be a pretty odd coincidence if the only powers that faded away were the ones they didn't use any more, and the only new powers were ones that were much more useful.

Not necessarily a coincidence. You could easily fluff it as saying that through extended disuse the spell effectively atrophied out of your brain, making space for a new spell.

[Chronos]

Melf's Unicorn Arrow is from Player's Handbook II.

[Narren]

I had a player that insisted I choose his spells for him each level, based upon how I interpreted his characters personality. I wouldn't tell him, either. He would figure out what new spells he had in the middle of a fight, or whenever I thought it would be interesting. He enjoyed the discovery of it each level.

[KillianHawkeye]

Unfortunately Professor X is a wizard though... ah well :smallannoyed:

More like a Psion (Telepath), eh? :smallwink:

[Daftendirekt]

Melf's Unicorn Arrow is from Player's Handbook II.

:smalleek:

It's a real spell. I thought people were just being silly. Wow...

[arguskos]

Isn't that just the horn?
Alicorn. Use the right term. :smalltongue:

Also, the thread question falls firmly into the "player gets to decide" camp, as far as I can figure it. I like the idea of a character who just mutates new spells and has no conscious control. I might play a sorc like that one day, sounds fun.

[Urpriest]

:smalleek:

It's a real spell. I thought people were just being silly. Wow...

It's not a bad spell either. Scales quite well with Empower.

[DonQuixote]

Yup, MUA shoots unicorns. Lots of them.

I was once in a party with a sorcerer who used to use Ocular Spell with Melf's Unicorn Arrow to shoot unicorns out of her eyes. That usually got a reaction.

See, now, I'm just thinking of the Spell Thematics feat (Player's Guide to Faerûn). Pick warforged and rainbows. Be pleased.

[Adrayll]

Hmmm.... where would the balance lie with a sorcerer variant that get spells randomly, but has far more known/uses? Fully embrace the mutant/undeveloped power theme.

[Serpentine]

Interesting question.
I think... I'd be happy with a player choosing to go with any way. They could say that their character's sorcery is like an untapped well of potential magic: they can draw from it and use it any way they like (i.e. totall character choice). Alternatively, their magic is attuned to a particular type of manifestation, but they are able to focus it on specific spells (i.e. character choice, but only within a particular theme, e.g. a fire "attuned" Sorcerer choosing between burning hands and fireball). Or finally, all their powers are natural, innate, and involuntary (i.e. no character choice).
I think I'd be interested in having my players pick one for their spontaneous spellcasters...

edit: I just asked my housemate, who plays a Sorcerer/Cleric/Arcane Whatsit in my game, how he thinks it works for her Sorcerer spells. He went for "innate, no choice in the matter, just wakes up one day with an extra spell".

[Alleran]

There's one line of text I would like to bring up in regards to this:

"With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of."

Now, it's vague, its a bit more mechanic than fluff, but it does imply that you might establish some kind of control over what spells you learn, even if it isn't direct.
From the sounds of it, you could technically choose new Sorcerer spells from the Cleric or Druid lists with that in play.

[sirpercival]

That's "with permission" -- if a DM allows you to pick Cleric/Druid spells, then you can pick Cleric/Druid spells.

[olentu]

From the sounds of it, you could technically choose new Sorcerer spells from the Cleric or Druid lists with that in play.

From the sounds of it it requires DM ruling for permission and with DM ruling any class could do so regardless of the rules.

[Alleran]

From the sounds of it it requires DM ruling for permission and with DM ruling any class could do so regardless of the rules.
As I said, "with that in play" - and it has a more solid backing (i.e. it's actually there in the text already) than a Druid randomly being given the ability to pick from any spell list.

EDIT: And checking the way the "spells" section of the Sorcerer class is worded on d20srd:

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Sorcs definitely have it built-in that they at least tentatively have the option of learning a spell from other lists.

[Serpentine]

Although that's an oft-forgotten loophole, I'm not sure it's really all that relevant to the discussion. That's a metagame aspect - with permission from the DM, the player can choose a spell from another spell list. In-game, it can be like any other spell: the Sorcerer might choose to study it, or they might wake up one day and be able to do something usually associated with Clerics.

[Cogidubnus]

This idea is so good that, even if WotC had written in flaming bold text 32 points high that Sorcerers consciously decided what spells to get, as a DM I'd let you have it. Imagining a Sorcerer who wishes that when he tried to heal people he didn't set them on fire is too much fun.

[Jack of Spades]

The way I've always thought divine magic worked in the general, vanilla underlying fantasy setting of DnD was that basically, magic is magic. One has it, or they don't. So, a sorcerer would discover his/her ability to access magic by waking up one morning and being able to cast Mage Hand or something. Then, as he/she gained class levels, the sorcerer would figure out how to shape the generalized magical energy that flowed through them to create various effects. Replacement would be as simple as not quite being able to get the correct mindset to cast the forgotten spell due to disuse and the fact that the brain-space it used to occupy is now filled in by the magical muscle memory of the new spell.

But then again, it's fluff, which means the DM can say that things work however he/she wants.

[nedz]

There's one line of text I would like to bring up in regards to this:

"With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of."

Now, it's vague, its a bit more mechanic than fluff, but it does imply that you might establish some kind of control over what spells you learn, even if it isn't direct.


That said, I think that you could make a character either way, even within the context of the same world or game. Either seems perfectly feasible and reasonable to me.



As I said, "with that in play" - and it has a more solid backing (i.e. it's actually there in the text already) than a Druid randomly being given the ability to pick from any spell list.

EDIT: And checking the way the "spells" section of the Sorcerer class is worded on d20srd:

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Sorcs definitely have it built-in that they at least tentatively have the option of learning a spell from other lists.

Check out the Witch class DMG p175. Its basically a Sorceror with a different spell list, which includes various otherwise divine spells.


Hmmm.... where would the balance lie with a sorcerer variant that get spells randomly, but has far more known/uses? Fully embrace the mutant/undeveloped power theme.

I like theamatic Sorcerors. This would be the Diceman Sorceror TM: every time they get to choose new spells known, the player rolls a suitable dice. I suspect that it might be the opposite of optimal though. My first level Diceman Sorceror TM knows Nystul's Magic Aura and Identify :smallbiggrin:

[Adrayll]

I like theamatic Sorcerors. This would be the Diceman Sorceror TM: every time they get to choose new spells known, the player rolls a suitable dice. I suspect that it might be the opposite of optimal though. My first level Diceman Sorceror TM knows Nystul's Magic Aura and Identify :smallbiggrin:

That's just my point. How many extra spells known (and also spells per day) would you need to have any semblance of balance to mitigate the lack of choice in spells? Would having twice the spells known, and being able to cast them say, twice as many times make up for the lack of choice? It's an interesting thought.

EDIT: Upon further musing, i think this would almost be viable if the sorcerer was able to pick the school of the spell. (Ie: okay, this level I want my level three spell to be an evocation, and my level four spell to be an enchantment). Still fits the undeveloped/uncontrolled power theme if you ask me.

[hex0]

Hmmm.... where would the balance lie with a sorcerer variant that get spells randomly, but has far more known/uses? Fully embrace the mutant/undeveloped power theme.

Make the Sorcerer more like a Wilder?

[aza9999]

My personal view on sorcerers is that they don't have conscious choice of what spells they get, the spells and powers they develop would reflect their internal nature, not necessarily their conscious desires.

If you're the quiet brooding type, your spells would be dark and potentially evil in nature. (summoning demons instead of unicorns and rainbows)

If you have a nasty short temper then you'd be more likely to exhibit spells of an explosive violent nature - spells that are instantaneous, unsubtle in nature.

If you are devious and manipulative you would be more likely to develop powers that alter minds etc.

While wizards are thinkers, sorcerers are do'ers and their magic is more about emotion than plan...not as much as wild magic but definitely closer to that than wizard magic.

[dspeyer]

I'm in the deliberate choice camp. IIRC, the PHB says sorcerers are "like poets", and poets certainly choose what poems to write.

I can see a 9th level sorcerer sitting around, meditating, tasting the magic of location, knowing vaguely that teleportation spells are possible and thinking that if he could just stretch his will past the bitter corner into the cool minty part he could flick the whole thing and send himself somewhere.

I can also see that same sorcerer seeking advice from a 10th level sorcerer who can cast teleport and getting advice in a completely different metaphor.

OTOH, I also now want to create a class based on the no-conscious-control thing.

[nedz]

I'm in the deliberate choice camp. IIRC, the PHB says sorcerers are "like poets", and poets certainly choose what poems to write.
The muses might disagree with you.


OTOH, I also now want to create a class based on the no-conscious-control thing.
Simple: Let me present the Wonderor TM base class.
tl;dl;Its the same as Sorceror, but instead of Spells Known they roll a dice and consult a suitable random table. I'll leave creating the table as an exercise for the reader, but you might find the Wand Rod of Wonder suitable inspiration.
Alternatively you could port the Wild Mage from 2E. Essentially they roll a dice every time they cast a spell, and if its a Wild Surge (roughly 5% change IIRC) they roll d% on another table - which changes the spell. You could probably port the 2E table almost directly, though there are some other tables out in the far realms of the Internet.


That's just my point. How many extra spells known (and also spells per day) would you need to have any semblance of balance to mitigate the lack of choice in spells? Would having twice the spells known, and being able to cast them say, twice as many times make up for the lack of choice? It's an interesting thought.
Unlimited - like the Warlock ?


EDIT: Upon further musing, i think this would almost be viable if the sorcerer was able to pick the school of the spell. (Ie: okay, this level I want my level three spell to be an evocation, and my level four spell to be an enchantment). Still fits the undeveloped/uncontrolled power theme if you ask me.
A player could do this for themselves already, though they might tire of the idea.

How about an introductory level experiment ?
Create a random knowstone, which changes its spell every day. You might want to fix the level ? Or maybe not, a 9th level spell known is not much use to a first level Sorceror.
Obviously you would re-fluff it as something else to avoid confusion.