Does this even make sense?

[lunar2]

Ok, my DM just threw a half gold silver dragon at us. his justification is:

1. the half dragon template can be added to any corporeal living creature with a discernible anatomy.

2. silver and gold dragons are known to "associate" with each other occasionally.

of course, he really just wanted to throw something that was immune to acid, cold, and fire at us, effectively eliminating our sorcerer as a serious threat (did I mention that the thing has a monk class level, and an 18 dex, just to boost its HP, AC, and saves without raising CR, since monk is non-associated with dragons).

While I don't mind fighting a tough monster, a monster with no in-game logic (a half dragon dragon, c'mon) built specifically to eliminate a single party member's usefulness without increased rewards to the party is just stupid.

this isn't the first time he's pulled stuff like this, either. He's homebrewed monsters the fighter needs a 7 to get the first hit on with a flank, meaning that the rogue can't hit without a 16 on his first attack. he's thrown monsters with save based abilities that are difficult for a monk to make. and he gets mad when the sorcerer has to step in and time stop (multiple delayed blast fireball).

[Hiro Protagonest]

The template makes sense.

It sounds like the DM's logic is some twisted version of "make an encounter for every party member" to make it "make an encounter where one of the party members is useless, and rotate which one".

[arguskos]

He is in the mechanical clear. He also sounds like a ****. These are unrelated points.

Mechanically, he is correct in that a half-dragon dragon is perfectly legal, and can even be justified in-game (a gold and silver dragon fall in love and crossbreed, why do you have an issue with this idea again?).

Socially, he sounds like he has the mindset of "me vs. them", which is unhealthy. I would address the issue at your next session and mention that this behavior is causing issues. If he dismisses it or attacks your concerns, then you have a serious problem and an excuse to bail on the game (a not-half-bad idea given the circumstances).

[Jolly]

He is in the mechanical clear. He also sounds like a ****. These are unrelated points.

Mechanically, he is correct in that a half-dragon dragon is perfectly legal, and can even be justified in-game (a gold and silver dragon fall in love and crossbreed, why do you have an issue with this idea again?).

Socially, he sounds like he has the mindset of "me vs. them", which is unhealthy. I would address the issue at your next session and mention that this behavior is causing issues. If he dismisses it or attacks your concerns, then you have a serious problem and an excuse to bail on the game (a not-half-bad idea given the circumstances).

I agree with this post wholly.

Of all the half dragon templates, I'd think "one dragon mating with another" would probably be the most sensible and easy to believe. From a fluff perspective I can't imagine objecting to it.

Your DM could be a jerk. But monks being generally useless is probably not his fault. And having several very low tier cahracters need to be saved by the tier 2 is a common result of power imbalance in the party. I'd like to hear both sides of this story before making a judgement on the relative jerkiness of the DM.

[Metahuman1]

I agree with this post wholly.

Of all the half dragon templates, I'd think "one dragon mating with another" would probably be the most sensible and easy to believe. From a fluff perspective I can't imagine objecting to it.

Your DM could be a jerk. But monks being generally useless is probably not his fault. And having several very low tier cahracters need to be saved by the tier 2 is a common result of power imbalance in the party. I'd like to hear both sides of this story before making a judgement on the relative jerkiness of the DM.

I gotta go with what's already been said on the matter.

Though now I'm toying with a way to do a half one type of dragon half the other as a PC just for giggles. And yes, I realize making it playable will require homebrew. See the statement "Just for giggles."

[Glimbur]

Amusingly, a half dragon creature is a valid target for the half dragon template. That probably doesn't really help you thought.

Your DM seems to be playing in a DM v Players mentality, which can lead to problems because, as you know, the DM can always throw a monster at the party they cannot beat. Have a civil conversation with him/her out of game.

[Diefje]

I don't know your DM, but I wouldn't be complaining.

Sure it's a funky monsters, but it's not illegal. And even if it was, he can pull the "I can make whatever monster I want". I would take it as feedback: if the Sorc can be thwarted by creatures immune to cold/fire/acid, maybe he should look into obtaining a way to do force or sonic or electric instead. Or debuffs. Or anything else. If you get pitted against a creature that the rogue can't hit, he should look into a way to boost his to hit. If your fighter gets feared every other combat, he should get something to make him immune or at least more resistant.

Don't just start yelling foul, just because your party is ill prepared. It'd be a different story if it was a monster that was just unbeatable and inescapable.

[lunar2]

well, I know he's mechanically in the clear. I was more pointing out the "I'm going to give it multiple energy immunities for +2 cr, and then send its AC and saves through the roof for +0 CR" and now that we've actually managed to beat it (gated in a Pit Fiend, and agreed to kill a high level good cleric that's basically a pope, then killed the pit fiend after it finished off the dragon), we find out that it was using magic so we couldn't find out where its lair is, so we don't even get treasure for it.

as for the tiers, we're running a core only campaign, so it's fighter rogue sorcerer cleric, with the sorcerer being a blaster and the cleric stuck being a healer.

optimization consists of the fighter dual wielding 2 kusari-gamas, and focusing on trips, sunders, and disarms from 10 feats (literally) away, and similar tricks like that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Sorcerer should have picked more diverse spells, or failing that, should be carrying Tanglefoot Bags. Namely Wings of Flurry and Enervation.

Half-Dragon Dragon is perfectly legit. Adding a primarily unarmored/melee class level to a primarily unarmored/melee monster as nonassociated is severely underhanded, especially considering it adds the elite array (25 point buy, 15 14 13 12 10 8, no 18's for its Dex). He should have awarded the party XP/treasure as though its CR were one higher, he's just being stingy at that point.

The problem of opponents' ACs isn't the DM's fault. If the Fighter can hit on a 7, then he should be using Power Attack. If the Rogue is just not good at hitting stuff, the DM shouldn't necessarily cater to his handicap with easy mode monsters.

Does your group have a lot of experience playing at this level? Did your characters start at a considerably higher level than several players have ever reached through play? It looks like your DM is running a high-level game for a party that has a very wide power discrepancy, and he feels it's necessary to sometimes use significant encounters in which the most powerful characters don't just steal the show (as usual). If you're not having fun, if other players aren't having as much fun as they think they should, then discuss this with them and the DM outside the game. Maybe your group needs to play at a lower level that everyone will be more comfortable at, or maybe the weaker characters need to be buffed a bit so they can better contribute without encounters in which the stronger characters feel useless.

[Drelua]

Half-Dragon Dragon may be legal, but it still makes no sense. How does combining two creatures that are almost equal in power get a much stronger one? What if it was a Half-Silver Dragon Gold Dragon? That gives it a different CR purely due to semantics. Even worse, say you have a Half-White Dragon Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. Sure, it's perfectly legal, but how does a creature get more powerful by being half a creature with a CR 6 lower? How could that possibly be more powerful than a pure-blooded gold dragon? In this case semantics makes a difference of 6 CR, depending on which type of dragon has the other type's half- template applied to it. Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't that seem pretty messed up?

[lunar2]

I think the lowest level I've ever started a campaign as a player was lv.7. we run through to low epics (below 30) on a regular basis. as for the 18 dex, we're running a 36 flat point buy from 8, so the elite array is 18, 16,16, 14, 12, 8.

as for the rogue not being able to hit, that's what happens with a bab 5 lower, a strength mod 3 lower, and no G. weapon focus. you got to roll 9 higher to hit the same AC.

as for the sorcerer, he's got enervation, but he can't hit a dragon monk with it. if he didn't have that gate scroll, we'd be dead.

against something that big, the fighter can't trip it. it doesn't have weapons to disarm or sunder, and i can only reliably get 4 of my 7 attacks in. a silver dragon can heal more damage than that with a single spell, because they get cleric spells on their list.

and of course, the cleric is too busy just keeping us alive to do anything offensively. a blade barrier would have been nice, but against something like that, a heal spell is more important.

[Mooncrow]

Half-Dragon Dragon may be legal, but it still makes no sense. How does combining two creatures that are almost equal in power get a much stronger one? What if it was a Half-Silver Dragon Gold Dragon? That gives it a different CR purely due to semantics. Even worse, say you have a Half-White Dragon Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. Sure, it's perfectly legal, but how does a creature get more powerful by being half a creature with a CR 6 lower? How could that possibly be more powerful than a pure-blooded gold dragon? In this case semantics makes a difference of 6 CR, depending on which type of dragon has the other type's half- template applied to it. Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't that seem pretty messed up?

How is that messed up? Actually stat it up, and see the huge difference in stats you get - it's easily a 6CR difference.

[Jeraa]

Half-Dragon Dragon may be legal, but it still makes no sense. How does combining two creatures that are almost equal in power get a much stronger one? What if it was a Half-Silver Dragon Gold Dragon? That gives it a different CR purely due to semantics. Even worse, say you have a Half-White Dragon Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. Sure, it's perfectly legal, but how does a creature get more powerful by being half a creature with a CR 6 lower? How could that possibly be more powerful than a pure-blooded gold dragon? In this case semantics makes a difference of 6 CR, depending on which type of dragon has the other type's half- template applied to it. Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't that seem pretty messed up?

The same way that combining a lion and a tiger in the real world produces something bigger and stronger then either parent. Liger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger) (Granted, it wouldn't be a huge difference if stated up. But they are still stronger then either parent)

[lunar2]

he meant in universe. while i can understand the CR difference from adding half gold to a silver, because it changes an energy vulnerability to an immunity, the rest of the "gaining a buttload of power from breeding with something that's basically you with a different skin color' is what's so ridiculous. a hybrid dragon should, at best, get the stats of the stronger one, and the primary immunities and primary breath weapon of both.

[Mooncrow]

he meant in universe. while i can understand the CR difference from adding half gold to a silver, because it changes an energy vulnerability to an immunity, the rest of the "gaining a buttload of power from breeding with something that's basically you with a different skin color' is what's so ridiculous. a hybrid dragon should, at best, get the stats of the stronger one, and the primary immunities and primary breath weapon of both.

I can hear the screams of the dying catgirls from here =/

[flumphy]

he meant in universe. while i can understand the CR difference from adding half gold to a silver, because it changes an energy vulnerability to an immunity, the rest of the "gaining a buttload of power from breeding with something that's basically you with a different skin color' is what's so ridiculous. a hybrid dragon should, at best, get the stats of the stronger one, and the primary immunities and primary breath weapon of both.

Except, as demonstrated with the liger, actual genetics don't usually work that way. Crossbreeding things can activate or suppress genes in ways that don't happen in either parent. The various colors of dragons are different species with different appearances, abilities, and behaviors, so it makes sense that similarly wonky things could happen when they crossbreed.

It may have been kind of low of the DM to throw such a monster at a party he knew wasn't prepared for it, but in my opinion the monster itself actually makes more sense than most of what's in the monster manual.

[Diefje]

It may have been kind of low of the DM to throw such a monster at a party he knew wasn't prepared for it, but in my opinion the monster itself actually makes more sense than most of what's in the monster manual.

"So what else do we have?"
"Alright get this. It's a bear, right? Except this one is bigger and more pissed off. We're gonna call it a Dire Bear."
"but isn't that just a big ass bear?"
"Nono, he's also more pissed off. He's flippin Dire!"
".... "
"And check this one out. It's like a crossbreed hyena/wolf, right? But his face is inside out! BOOM!"
/facepalm
"Oh and this one! Looks like a normal snake right? BAM! Now he has a face."
"well at least it's not inside out..."

[Hiro Protagonest]

"So what else do we have?"
"Alright get this. It's a bear, right? Except this one is bigger and more pissed off. We're gonna call it a Dire Bear."
"but isn't that just a big ass bear?"
"Nono, he's also more pissed off. He's flippin Dire!"
".... "
"And check this one out. It's like a crossbreed hyena/wolf, right? But his face is inside out! BOOM!"
/facepalm
"Oh and this one! Looks like a normal snake right? BAM! Now he has a face."
"well at least it's not inside out..."

Since beholder is a legacy monster from the old days, I think this conversation took place.

Gygax: "And this one is a giant ball with an eye and a bunch of eyestalks with more eyes!"
Arneson: "What the heck is that creature's type?"
Gygax: "Abberation!"
Arneson: "...You made that type so you could justify every damn thing that crosses your mind, didn't you?"

[Gavinfoxx]

Dire animals? Ahem...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dire_Wolf

[Drelua]

Except, as demonstrated with the liger, actual genetics don't usually work that way. Crossbreeding things can activate or suppress genes in ways that don't happen in either parent. The various colors of dragons are different species with different appearances, abilities, and behaviors, so it makes sense that similarly wonky things could happen when they crossbreed.

That's not what I mean. A liger is a half-lion tiger, but what if a half-tiger lion had a different name and was far more powerful. That would be the same thing as a half-white dragon red dragon being far more powerful than a half-red dragon white dragon, even though they could be from the same litter (or whatever you call it) of dragons, because they're the same thing, except one is inexplicably 6 CR higher. That's not a mechanical problem, it just makes no sense.

[Mooncrow]

That's not what I mean. A liger is a half-lion tiger, but what if a half-tiger lion had a different name and was far more powerful. That would be the same thing as a half-white dragon red dragon being far more powerful than a half-red dragon white dragon, even though they could be from the same litter (or whatever you call it) of dragons, because they're the same thing, except one is inexplicably 6 CR higher. That's not a mechanical problem, it just makes no sense.

Genetics may as well be magic as far as the layman understands it. And even with my "just barely more than the average layman's knowledge" know that you can get astonishingly variant physical/mental capabilities from one litter.

[Yuki Akuma]

Half-tiger lions are different to half-lion tigers, though!

They're called tiglons, and they're tiny exactly the same size as lions or tigers.

(Well, actually, tiglons might better be describes as half-tiger lions - they're bred from a male tiger and a female lion, as opposed to a liger, which is a male lion and a female tiger. But... semantics.)

But, yeah, my point is, hybrids totally work that way. See also: mules and hinnies.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

That's not what I mean. A liger is a half-lion tiger, but what if a half-tiger lion had a different name and was far more powerful.

This is actually the case in real life.

[Midnight_v]

That's not what I mean. A liger is a half-lion tiger, but what if a half-tiger lion had a different name and was far more powerful.

Not to pick nits but... ligers are way more ginormous than lions, or tigers. Genetically, its called heterogyny "outbreeding" mixed bloodlines are aparently stronger, in the face of monarchys like forever...etc.

[Lucy Land]

Players can optimize, and DMs can too...

Welcome to D&D! :)


I think the lowest level I've ever started a campaign as a player was lv.7.
What level are you now?

[Drelua]

This is actually the case in real life.

Confusing as that is, I take it that has something to do with the breeding process. If there was a rule somewhere saying that when creating a half-dragon dragon you add the template from the male to the female or something like that, it'd be fine with it, but when the only thing changing the CR of two creatures conceived in precisely the same way is wording, it gets confusing. I know there can be a huge difference between creatures from the same litter, but not 6 CR huge. When a half-red dragon white dragon couldn't stand up to 4 half-white dragon red dragons, well, I can't see how there could be nothing wrong with that.

Imagine this; a DM tells a small party that they encounter a half-red dragon great wyrm white dragon. They probably won't be too worried. Then the DM corrects himself, telling him he got it backwards, and the party runs, knowing such a thing could destroy them. Of course, this assumes the CR system isn't horribly flawed, but in a low-op but knowledgeable group, this could easily be the case, with no flawed judgement from the party.

Of course, I concede that there is a decent chance I'm completely wrong, since I have no more biological knowledge than any other high-school graduate, and I'm pretty much making this up on the spot. :smalltongue:

[Mooncrow]

Confusing as that is, I take it that has something to do with the breeding process. If there was a rule somewhere saying that when creating a half-dragon dragon you add the template from the male to the female or something like that, it'd be fine with it, but when the only thing changing the CR of two creatures conceived in precisely the same way is wording, it gets confusing. I know there can be a huge difference between creatures from the same litter, but not 6 CR huge. When a half-red dragon white dragon couldn't stand up to 4 half-white dragon red dragons, well, I can't see how there could be nothing wrong with that.

Imagine this; a DM tells a small party that they encounter a half-red dragon great wyrm white dragon. They probably won't be too worried. Then the DM corrects himself, telling him he got it backwards, and the party runs, knowing such a thing could destroy them. Of course, this assumes the CR system isn't horribly flawed, but in a low-op but knowledgeable group, this could easily be the case, with no flawed judgement from the party.

Of course, I concede that there is a decent chance I'm completely wrong, since I have no more biological knowledge than any other high-school graduate, and I'm pretty much making this up on the spot. :smalltongue:

I'm not trying to be mean to anyone, and I freely include myself in the following, but I mean this seriously: if you haven't spent at least 4 years of study in genetics or a closely related field, you don't understand genetics.

Also, trying to justify in-game stuff with real-world science makes baby catgirls cry :smallfrown:

[Talentless]

well, I know he's mechanically in the clear. I was more pointing out the "I'm going to give it multiple energy immunities for +2 cr, and then send its AC and saves through the roof for +0 CR" and now that we've actually managed to beat it (gated in a Pit Fiend, and agreed to kill a high level good cleric that's basically a pope, then killed the pit fiend after it finished off the dragon), we find out that it was using magic so we couldn't find out where its lair is, so we don't even get treasure for it.

as for the tiers, we're running a core only campaign, so it's fighter rogue sorcerer cleric, with the sorcerer being a blaster and the cleric stuck being a healer.

optimization consists of the fighter dual wielding 2 kusari-gamas, and focusing on trips, sunders, and disarms from 10 feats (literally) away, and similar tricks like that.

While I don't see any particular issue with the DM throwing a tough encounter at you guys, I see a massive issue with the end of the encounter.

You won the encounter by expending a pretty hefty resource, especially for a Sorc, and he won't even give you any bloody loot.

That is just all 7 kinds of wrong and not cool.

If he is going to attack you with tailored to mess the party up encounters, he needs to man up and pay you guys when you win, especially with the resource costs you incur to win/survive said encounters.

[arguskos]

I stand by my post above of "he was in the clear, but he's also being a ****. Talk to him about it."

Really, there's nothing else meaningful to say. All indications we've been given are that he is falling into DM vs. Players, which is a poisonous and dangerous mindset and needs to be addressed. Get off the computer, call the guy, and say "we need to talk about this". Otherwise, nothing's going to be done.

As a side note, bitching about the genetics of a half-dragon dragon in a world where DEMONS ARE LITERAL PHYSICAL BEINGS OF EVIL is really, really, really petty. In a universe where you can go and touch the physical incarnations of Good and Evil, bitching about genetics is a waste of time, man. :smalltongue:

[Jeraa]

Also, trying to justify in-game stuff with real-world science make baby catgirls cry :smallfrown:

We have to use real world science in these cases. Otherwise, the question "Does this even make sense?" would have one answer - "Of course. Its Magic. A wizard/god/whatever did it." Without using real-world science, that would be the answer to most of the questions about things in D&D.

Question: "Does this even make sense?"
Real-world answer: "Yes. Its genetics."
Dungeons and Dragons answer: "Yes. Its magic."

[Mooncrow]

We have to use real world science in these cases. Otherwise, the question "Does this even make sense?" would have one answer - "Of course. Its Magic. A wizard/god/whatever did it." Without using real-world science, that would be the answer to most of the questions about things in D&D.

And the answer, for anyone other than a trained geneticist, is going to be "I dunno; genetics and how it interacts with different species is insanely complicated."

This is one field where "common sense" doesn't come close to cutting it.

[lunar2]

@lucy land.

It varies. I'm barely at 20 because I roleplay more (and catch my share of traps to the face). The rogue's at mid 19 from disabling (or not) traps. while the Sorc and Cleric are High 18s.

in most campaigns, I end up a level higher than everyone else simply because I actually play a character.

[Jeraa]

And the answer, for anyone other than a trained geneticist, is going to be "I dunno; genetics and how it interacts with different species is insanely complicated."

This is one field where "common sense" doesn't come close to cutting it.

While we can't give a definitive answer (dragons aren't around for genetic testing after all), you can at least look and see what could be possible. We know that in some cases, the offspring of parents of two different species can produce something stronger then either parent. You don't have to know anything about genetics to know that. You do need to know about genetics to know why that happens though.

[sirpercival]

Also, if you think about it a "half-dragon" doesn't necessarily have one dragon parent, just like a half-elf doesn't necessarily have one elf parent and one human parent. In that case a half-white dragon red dragon and a half-red dragon white dragon could very well be different species altogether.

[Mooncrow]

While we can't give a definitive answer (dragons aren't around for genetic testing after all), you can at least look and see what could be possible. We know that in some cases, the offspring of parents of two different species can produce something stronger then either parent. You don't have to know anything about genetics to know that. You do need to know about genetics to know why that happens though.

More to the point, we can potentially say "yes, that could happen." But in what circumstance could we say "no, that couldn't happen". I don't think that we can, and in that case, where's the point in discussing?

[Jeraa]

More to the point, we can potentially say "yes, that could happen." But in what circumstance could we say "no, that couldn't happen". I don't think that we can, and in that case, where's the point in discussing?

"Will a dog mating with a cat make a mouse?" "Will two dragons mating create a troll?" "Will a reptile and an amphibian make a mammal?" We have no experience with anything like those heppening, and (at least as far as we know) its impossible. (Surely, if it was possible, we would have seen something like it.) We could apply the same to any other like situation. "Will a bear mating with a deer create a lion?" Well, looking at other examples of mating with similar circumstances, we can reasonably say "No. That won't happen." [Except, of course, when magic is involved. So, at least as far as D&D is concerned, we can never say "No, that couldn't happen." In real life, with real-life animals, we could, however.]

And of course this discussion is pointless. Just like every single other "Is X possible?" or "Does Y make sense?" thread. Or "Is Z evil?" When magic and the gods are involved, nothing can be said for certain. Not even "The sun will rise in the east tomorrow." or "Water makes things wet." Why are those topics still brought up and discussed? Because. Simple as that.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Confusing as that is, I take it that has something to do with the breeding process.

If I understand it right-- I'm even less educated than you are-- it's an issue of one species inheriting the genes that control growth hormones from the male parent and the other species inherits them from the female parent. So, depending on the sexes of their parents, they're either pygmies or giants.


If there was a rule somewhere saying that when creating a half-dragon dragon you add the template from the male to the female or something like that, it'd be fine with it, but when the only thing changing the CR of two creatures conceived in precisely the same way is wording, it gets confusing.

So don't ask about the wording. Ask whether the dragon looks more like a white dragon or a red dragon. Make a DC 20 Arcana check.


I know there can be a huge difference between creatures from the same litter, but not 6 CR huge.

Why not? If the difference between the parents' CR is 6, and we've already established that interspecies hybrids aren't predictable, then the offspring's CR could just as easily fall at any point between the range or even outside it in either direction.


Imagine this; a DM tells a small party that they encounter a half-red dragon great wyrm white dragon. They probably won't be too worried.

I don't give the players that kind of information at all without a skill check, and when they make the skill check I don't give that information in game terms. I also make absolutely no promises of the creatures they meet being even remotely fair encounters for characters of their level.


Question: "Does this even make sense?"
Real-world answer: "Yes. Its genetics."
Dungeons and Dragons answer: "Yes. Its magic."

That's my answer to why all the half-elves and half-orcs and half-dwarves are half-human. It has nothing whatsoever to do with genetics or species or any of that nonsense. The ability to produce viable offspring with other humanoids-- and some monstrous humanoids and giants-- is a magical ability of the human race, like a weaker version of the same ability in Dragons and Outsiders.

[SamBurke]

Ok, my DM just threw a half gold silver dragon at us. his justification is:

1. the half dragon template can be added to any corporeal living creature with a discernible anatomy.

2. silver and gold dragons are known to "associate" with each other occasionally.

of course, he really just wanted to throw something that was immune to acid, cold, and fire at us, effectively eliminating our sorcerer as a serious threat (did I mention that the thing has a monk class level, and an 18 dex, just to boost its HP, AC, and saves without raising CR, since monk is non-associated with dragons).

While I don't mind fighting a tough monster, a monster with no in-game logic (a half dragon dragon, c'mon) built specifically to eliminate a single party member's usefulness without increased rewards to the party is just stupid.

this isn't the first time he's pulled stuff like this, either. He's homebrewed monsters the fighter needs a 7 to get the first hit on with a flank, meaning that the rogue can't hit without a 16 on his first attack. he's thrown monsters with save based abilities that are difficult for a monk to make. and he gets mad when the sorcerer has to step in and time stop (multiple delayed blast fireball).

Funny thing... Your DM? Is being a DM. Now, you haven't given quite enough information to say: "he's jerking your chain" or "he's trying to give you a challenging game", but I'd go with the best. Making an encounter hard for the best player so the others can compete sounds like he's trying to make it fun for everyone. It's not going to be a cakewalk every time. I learned that the hard way. Even wizards are susceptible to falling off of a cliff, when the rogue didn't (admittedly, this was long before the level at which Time Stop was available). That's how the game works.

Also, you guys are pretty much at epic levels (at least 17, unless the Sorc has got some decent optimization going down). Things will be wacked-out hard.

As to throwing in the Monk level, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Monsters are sometimes poorly designed in the Monster Manuals. That's why GMs add templates and so on.

Verdict: GM.

[Sith_Happens]

we find out that it was using magic so we couldn't find out where its lair is, so we don't even get treasure for it.

1. Contact Other Plane and/or Commune.
2. Repeat 1 as necessary.
3. ???
4. Profit.

[Mooncrow]

"Will a dog mating with a cat make a mouse?" "Will two dragons mating create a troll?" "Will a reptile and an amphibian make a mammal?" We have no experience with anything like those heppening, and (at least as far as we know) its impossible. (Surely, if it was possible, we would have seen something like it.) We could apply the same to any other like situation. "Will a bear mating with a deer create a lion?" Well, looking at other examples of mating with similar circumstances, we can reasonably say "No. That won't happen." [Except, of course, when magic is involved. So, at least as far as D&D is concerned, we can never say "No, that couldn't happen." In real life, with real-life animals, we could, however.]

And of course this discussion is pointless. Just like every single other "Is X possible?" or "Does Y make sense?" thread. Or "Is Z evil?" When magic and the gods are involved, nothing can be said for certain. Not even "The sun will rise in the east tomorrow." or "Water makes things wet." Why are those topics still brought up and discussed? Because. Simple as that.

Fair enough^^ My sister is actually a geneticist though, and when she talks about her work, most of the time it might as well be magic as far as I'm concerned, and this is from someone that's had a fair amount of college biology and other science courses. Add in the crazy freaks of nature that we discover all the time, and I think it's a little foolish to try and point to real life "common sense" as an adjudicator for what can happen in D&D :smalltongue:

But you're right, people will talk about what they want to talk about.

[Telok]

...as for the rogue not being able to hit, that's what happens with a bab 5 lower, a strength mod 3 lower, and no G. weapon focus. you got to roll 9 higher to hit the same AC.

as for the sorcerer, he's got enervation, but he can't hit a dragon monk with it. if he didn't have that gate scroll, we'd be dead.

against something that big, the fighter can't trip it....

The rogue doesn't have Weapon Finesse and can't get targets flat-footed. The sorcerer doesn't have access to True Strike. The fighter has difficulty with large non-humanoid unarmed creatures. You're complaining because a powerful dragon warded it's hoard against scrying.

An I correct in thinking that an iron golem with a blindfold of blindsight ans a couple of eversmoking bottles glued to it would be a big problem for you guys?

For the treasure just hire a bard to Gather Info on where the unique silver/gold dragon lives and go there. Just because you can't scry something is no reason to cry foul. Anti-scry needs to be a part of everyone's plans at high levels unless the DM is purposely low-balling things for you.

[Serpentine]

For the treasure just hire a bard to Gather Info on where the unique silver/gold dragon lives and go there. Just because you can't scry something is no reason to cry foul. Anti-scry needs to be a part of everyone's plans at high levels unless the DM is purposely low-balling things for you.Bam. Instant plot-hook: "We know there's a massive hidden hoard of treasure somewhere, but we can't magically find it on our own. How do we seek it out, without tipping off a competitor who might get to it first?"

[Kogak]

I am not sure if this point has been mentioned, but the Savage Species book has a subsection that addresses each of the templates. In that section there is a line on half-dragon that explicitly states the template can be added to dragons to make them even meaner. As said before, mechanically your DM is in the clear.

I would start to worry a bit that he may well be pulling the Savage Species book on you while keeping their CR/LA (which I understand to be somewhat... broken? I have never been allowed to actually use it so I have largely academic knowledge of it) as written.

[lunar2]

The rogue doesn't have Weapon Finesse and can't get targets flat-footed. The sorcerer doesn't have access to True Strike. The fighter has difficulty with large non-humanoid unarmed creatures. You're complaining because a powerful dragon warded it's hoard against scrying.

An I correct in thinking that an iron golem with a blindfold of blindsight ans a couple of eversmoking bottles glued to it would be a big problem for you guys?

For the treasure just hire a bard to Gather Info on where the unique silver/gold dragon lives and go there. Just because you can't scry something is no reason to cry foul. Anti-scry needs to be a part of everyone's plans at high levels unless the DM is purposely low-balling things for you.

The rogue has the same strength as dex (16 base on each, and +6 enhancement). his strength just happens to be 6 lower than the fighter. the rogue has to push his INT as high as possible to deal with traps, which is what limits his dex and strength. he can get most targets flat-footed or flanked, but dragons are big, they're hard to get through/around without getting your butt handed to you on the way.

The sorcerer does not have true strike to my knowledge, and if he did, he'd save it for himself. he's a blaster, not a buffer.

the fighter has a set of weapons for just about any common type of DR, a brilliant energy set to bypass armor, a bow and some custom net-arrows to bring down flyers (huge or smaller), and just about any other contingency you can think of. if he can hit, he can pull his weight, but hitting an AC boosted dragon is no easy feat.

a golem wouldn't have a blindfold of Blindsight, because that's not a core Item. the golem will have the same miss chance as everyone else. Golems aren't exactly much of a challenge, anyway. it's just one of those things that the sorc happens to sit out on.

And who exactly is going to know where a dragon keeps its hoard? you run into the same issue as scrying. anyone who knows where it is won't be alive to tell about it, and no one can scry to find out. and the DM pretty much said "You can't have this treasure".

[Lucy Land]

@lucy land.

It varies. I'm barely at 20 because I roleplay more (and catch my share of traps to the face). The rogue's at mid 19 from disabling (or not) traps. while the Sorc and Cleric are High 18s.
Okay, so you're all high level. I suspect that part of the problem is that your DM feels he needs to power game his monsters to challenge you all. Unfortunately, 3e is kinda infamous for creating these rocket-tagy situations at high levels, and subtly encouraging these kinds of arms-races.

As always, the best solution is to talk to your DM. :smallsmile: And then come back and tell us how the situation resolves!

[Dr.Epic]

Makes sense to me. I don't see why dragons of different species wouldn't mate aside from alignment differences. Is the dragon silver on on half of its body and gold on the other?

[lunar2]

Makes sense to me. I don't see why dragons of different species wouldn't mate aside from alignment differences. Is the dragon silver on on half of its body and gold on the other?

Nope it was bright shining white (supposed to be white gold, i guess).

[Dr.Epic]

Nope it was bright shining white (supposed to be white gold, i guess).

Awe, a Two Face-like dragon would be awesome!:smallwink:

[Calanon]

He is in the mechanical clear. He also sounds like a ****. These are unrelated points.

Mechanically, he is correct in that a half-dragon dragon is perfectly legal, and can even be justified in-game (a gold and silver dragon fall in love and crossbreed, why do you have an issue with this idea again?).

This. I've seen a person play a Silver Dragon Half Red dragon... to be honest I was confused as to why a Metallic Dragon would mate with a Chromatic Dragon... ah well... Don't very well care... it can still die so meh :smalltongue:

[Talentless]

This. I've seen a person play a Silver Dragon Half Red dragon... to be honest I was confused as to why a Metallic Dragon would mate with a Chromatic Dragon... ah well... Don't very well care... it can still die so meh :smalltongue:

honestly, that is one of the easier ones to explain. And it is not a very happy explanation.

[Yuki Akuma]

honestly, that is one of the easier ones to explain. And it is not a very happy explanation.

Alternatively, the DM remembered that "Always Chaotic Evil" really means "about 90 to 99% Chaotic Evil".

[Sith_Happens]

And who exactly is going to know where a dragon keeps its hoard? you run into the same issue as scrying. anyone who knows where it is won't be alive to tell about it, and no one can scry to find out. and the DM pretty much said "You can't have this treasure".

*AHEM*


1. Contact Other Plane and/or Commune.
2. Repeat 1 as necessary.
3. ???
4. Profit.

Heck, even Legend Lore would work eventually. Or Limited Wish/Miracle to duplicate Commune With Nature (hint: gold is a mineral). I'm sure people with more play experience than me could think of other ways as well.

[Serpentine]

And who exactly is going to know where a dragon keeps its hoard? you run into the same issue as scrying. anyone who knows where it is won't be alive to tell about it, and no one can scry to find out. and the DM pretty much said "You can't have this treasure".Research the habits of dragons. See if this dragon has turned up anywhere in history or myth. Look for information on other dragon hoards. Talk to people who have seen, or know someone who saw, the dragon, and triangulate its point of origin.
And that's without going into all the aforementioned magical alternatives to scrying...

[Jeraa]

Why go through the trouble? Speak with Dead will get the information just fine, if the will save is failed (Assuming the dragons alignment was different then the casters).


This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive. The corpse, however, cannot learn new information.

Your not asking the dragon itself, just its memories. If it fails the will save, it will tell you, though the answer could be "brief, cryptic, or repetitive".

[lunar2]

probably would have been a good idea, but we didn't have that one prepared. besides, a dragon monk with boosted wisdom is not likely to fail a will save.

[Daftendirekt]

optimization consists of the fighter dual wielding 2 kusari-gamas, and focusing on trips, sunders, and disarms from 10 feats (literally) away, and similar tricks like that.

I'm getting stuck on this. How the hell does one dual-wield a double weapon? You know what a kusari-gama is, right?

http://ninjainformationdatabase.webs.com/kusarigama1.jpg

Good luck using one of those in each hand.

[Killer Angel]

I'm getting stuck on this. How the hell does one dual-wield a double weapon? You know what a kusari-gama is, right?

http://ninjainformationdatabase.webs.com/kusarigama1.jpg

Good luck using one of those in each hand.

Any chance the "does this even make sense?" was referred to that? :smalltongue:

[Runestar]

Nothing wrong, IMO.

The template is +2cr, it is supposed to make the base dragon stronger and tougher. Ask yourself, is this comparable to fighting 2 dragons instead? If anything, I find the half-dragon is a tad wasted, because the base dragon doesn't benefit from wings, HD/skill increase, natural weapons and breath weapon.

If it makes you feel better, don't think of it as a half-dragon dragon, but just another generic template which grants stat boosts and an energy immunity. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

Your sorcerer friend sounds like a one-trick pony. If his answer to most threats is TS->DBF spam then it's reasonable to expect that to be countered eventually.

Where are your force effects, like Wings of Flurry (or Orb of Force, if that thing has too much SR?)

Also, your party has severe tier-imbalance. Fighter-Rogue-Monk-Sorcerer, and your DM is surprised that the sorcerer has to "step in"?

[lunar2]

I'm getting stuck on this. How the hell does one dual-wield a double weapon? You know what a kusari-gama is, right?

http://ninjainformationdatabase.webs.com/kusarigama1.jpg

Good luck using one of those in each hand.

the kusari-gama in the DMG is a light weapon. it's a sickle blade on the end of a chain that you can use for trips and disarms at reach.



Your sorcerer friend sounds like a one-trick pony. If his answer to most threats is TS->DBF spam then it's reasonable to expect that to be countered eventually.

Where are your force effects, like Wings of Flurry (or Orb of Force, if that thing has too much SR?)

Also, your party has severe tier-imbalance. Fighter-Rogue-Monk-Sorcerer, and your DM is surprised that the sorcerer has to "step in"?

again, it's core only. we don't have wings of flurry or orb of force. and it's fighter rogue cleric sorc. the monk was the dragon we were fighting.

as for one trick pony. like i pointed out, the dm likes throwing things at us with save based attacks that

fort: only the fighter and cleric CAN save against.

ref: only the rogue CAN save against.

Will: only the cleric CAN save against.

he likes things that almost can't miss us, and that we have hell trying to hit (ex: this dragon. the rogue literally can't hit more than 1 per round, 2 with haste , and that's hard to pull off).

the cleric is forced into heal bot role simply by nature of the enemies we face. every turn, there will be either significant damage or some status effect that the cleric has to fix or else someone will die.

the sorcerer is stuck spamming because it's the only way to win against certain encounters. it's a last resort, not a go to tactic.

[lunar2]

Your sorcerer friend sounds like a one-trick pony. If his answer to most threats is TS->DBF spam then it's reasonable to expect that to be countered eventually.

Where are your force effects, like Wings of Flurry (or Orb of Force, if that thing has too much SR?)

Also, your party has severe tier-imbalance. Fighter-Rogue-Monk-Sorcerer, and your DM is surprised that the sorcerer has to "step in"?

again, it's core only. we don't have wings of flurry or orb of force. and it's fighter rogue cleric sorc. the monk was the dragon we were fighting.

as for one trick pony. like i pointed out, the dm likes throwing things at us with save based attacks that

fort: only the fighter and cleric CAN save against.

ref: only the rogue CAN save against.

Will: only the cleric CAN save against.

he likes things that almost can't miss us, and that we have hell trying to hit (ex: this dragon. the rogue literally can't hit more than 1 per round, 2 with haste , and that's hard to pull off).

the cleric is forced into heal bot role simply by nature of the enemies we face. every turn, there will be either significant damage or some status effect that the cleric has to fix or else someone will die.

the sorcerer is stuck spamming because it's the only way to win against certain encounters. it's a last resort, not a go to tactic.

[Yuki Akuma]

Everyone can save against anything on a natural 20. :smalltongue:

And, really, save boosters shouldn't be tough to come across.

[lunar2]

that's not the problem. boosting save modifiers makes the dm boost save dcs. same with boosting attack rolls, ac, and just about anything else, including skills.

yes, somehow tumbling across flat ground past 1 monster gets HARDER as your skill modifier goes up.

[Mooncrow]

that's not the problem. boosting save modifiers makes the dm boost save dcs. same with boosting attack rolls, ac, and just about anything else, including skills.

yes, somehow tumbling across flat ground past 1 monster gets HARDER as your skill modifier goes up.

Well, that's ridiculous, and a separate problem.

[Yuki Akuma]

that's not the problem. boosting save modifiers makes the dm boost save dcs. same with boosting attack rolls, ac, and just about anything else, including skills.

yes, somehow tumbling across flat ground past 1 monster gets HARDER as your skill modifier goes up.

Yeah, you have a bad DM and should stop playing with this person.

[Fax Celestis]

That's not what I mean. A liger is a half-lion tiger, but what if a half-tiger lion had a different name and was far more powerful. That would be the same thing as a half-white dragon red dragon being far more powerful than a half-red dragon white dragon, even though they could be from the same litter (or whatever you call it) of dragons, because they're the same thing, except one is inexplicably 6 CR higher. That's not a mechanical problem, it just makes no sense.

You mean a tiglon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiglon)?

See also: beefalo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beefalo), black wolf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_wolf_(animal)), coydog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coydog), cheetoh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheetoh), savannah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah_(cat)), wholphin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholphin)...