Just a curiosity.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, Fighter in 3.5 D&D is in general not a good class, that seems to be the conventional wisdom.

But I've heard of and seen, scattered around the splat books, a couple of AFC's and Substitution levels and some fighter variants, that all appear to have done done enough to fix the problem.

So, I'm curious. Does anyone think the fighter would or would not be fixed if the class had all the variants and AFC's built in as standard class features in addition to the feats? What Teir would this put it at?

[Flickerdart]

You could make a case for T3, since Zhentarim Fighter + Dungeoncrasher + Shock Trooper gives three tricks, but I personally don't think that's enough to push it over T4.

[HunterOfJello]

a lot of people who play optimized fighters use two variants that improve the class significantly


The Zentarim Fighter gives some free stuff at no cost and improves the fighters ability to intimidate.

The Dungeoncrasher Figter ACF is great and throws in features that allow a fighter to do a ton of damage by bullrushing people into things.

~

By using these two features, the fighter can get back into being a proper Tier 4 class that can complete its job effectively for quite a few levels. The fighter still doesn't have the great versatility that is the staple of many Tier 3 classes, but it's much more effective than the core version.

[Metahuman1]

Yes, Dungeon Crasher and Zentarim seem to be very popular on this site, and while I've never used Zentarim, I happen to enjoy Dungeoncrasher Immensely. But I'm talking about giving them more then just those two, I'm talking about adding in the benefits of the Thug/Sneak attack variants, the Kensai Variant, the PHB II AFC's, everything. Every Fighter Variant or AFC published being collected, and added on top of the fighters somewhat lackluster PHB Chrissie (Full BAB, d10 Hit Dice, Good Fort Save, Lot's of Feats. I believe some of the variants give additional skills/skill points but I'm away form books right now so I'm not 100% on that.)

If you took every thing that's ever been added as a variant or alternative to just a class with no features and lots of feats, then added them all together, even the one's that don't normally stack, and then gave the fighter his regular feats and what not on top of that, what affect would it have on his power/versatility/usefulness in/out of combat/ Tier?

[dextercorvia]

I personally like the variant where it trades bonus feats and few HP for prepared divine spells up to 9th level and turn undead. I've heard good things about the Animal type racial substitution levels, where you trade bonus feats for a divine casting cohort.

[sirpercival]

I personally like the variant where it trades bonus feats and few HP for prepared divine spells up to 9th level and turn undead. I've heard good things about the Animal type racial substitution levels, where you trade bonus feats for a divine casting cohort.

lololol you win the internet.

[Metahuman1]

Lol.

Ok, ok, that was funny. But come on, you know what I'm actually asking about here. At least, I hope you do.

[Diefje]

In the end you're only good at beating people up, and that's just not always going to work.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a): free stuff, Skill Focus: Intimidate at 3rd, use Intimidate like Diplomacy to keep neighborhoods quaking in their boots as long as you go back every day and intimidate them again at 5th, and best of all demoralize as a swift action at 9th. Combined with Imperious Command it can keep an opponent permanently crowd controlled while you full attack. Combined with Never Outnumbered it makes an entire encounter lose a round's worth of actions, and if they were already shaken (i.e. Dreadful Wrath) they also spend a round trying to flee. So you definitely have some extremely useful tricks.

Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape: Bull Rush opponents against solid obstacles to deal tons of damage. Works well with a Brutal Surge weapon, works better with large size/powerful build and Knock-Back, works best while flying so you can Dungeoncrash them against the ground. With Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon and preferably Knock-Down, you'll knock opponents back head-over-heels to splat against the wall, and then they have to spend a move-action to get back up and another move-action to get back into melee and they still can't get close enough to attack you without getting the same treatment again. It's not just Dungeoncrasher, you need Knock-Back which requires powerful build or large size, preferably the latter for the reach, and you'll want to have Knock-Down as well.

There's also Physical Prowess (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) which combines rather well with Dungeoncrasher for kicking in the door, and it's absolutely free.

But what it all comes down to is that Tier 1-2 classes are accidentally game-breaking in untrained hands; Tier 3 classes are designed to be good even if you don't put much though into building the character, and Tier 4 and lower classes need to be built extremely well to be really good at anything, and to not feel useless at least half the time. Fighter is still Tier 4 even with all the above, but a broken race/template like Half-Minotaur could put it into Tier 3 territory if the player knows what he's doing.

[dextercorvia]

Flickerdart covered it. With all the best ACF's you can get to T4. If you chaos shuffle all of your feats, you can get spellcasting -- but your CL will be gimped. That would get you to high T3 -- maybe low T2.

[Aethir]

If we're including substitution levels (including racials) you at least get +2 Con from Kobold Fighter 2 and +2 Strength from Kobold Fighter 4, I'm sure there're other nickle and dime bonus points for things that'd help

[sirpercival]

And you get a warforged feat at first level with the Warforged sub -- so go ahead and get free adamantine full plate! DR 2/-- is good at level 1. ;)

[Midnight_v]

Ironically what I like most about the zhentarim is the "Lingering Demoralization", its so cool to have a social power on a fighter for a change. I really appreciated it when I played one.

[Gavinfoxx]

So Thug, Physical Prowess, Zhentarim, Dungeon Crusher... anything else?

[sirpercival]

What was the ruling on Racial Subs?

From ACF compilation (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III):


Armor of God (CC, p 48): Lose a bonus feat. As a immediate action, lower your will save to +0 and add your normal bonus to your AC.

Armored Mage (CM, p 32): lose medium and heavy armor, can pick an arcane class and cast in light armor, but only spells level equal to your fighter level +1.
Aligned Strike (CC, p 48): lose bonus feat, gain ability to align your weapon.
Counter Attack (PHB 2, p 45): Lose bonus feat. Use a full round action to make an attack, when you're attacked during that round you may attack your attacker as an immediate action.

Darksong Knight Substitution Levels (CV, p 38): d8 HD, add Perform (dance)
2nd level: Dancing Feint (use Perform (dance) to feint)
6th level: Favored Enemy (yochlol)
8th level: Combat Dancing (+2 dodge bonus against AoOs, +2 attacks using Spring Attack)

Dragonscale Husk (DrM, p 12): lose armor proficiency, gain scaly hide.

Drow Fighter (DU, p 58): Gain +2 initiative and Dex to damage against flat-footed enemies, lose heavy armor and tower shield proficiency.

Dungeon Crasher (DS, p 10): lose bonus feats, gain bonuses to break doors and traps. Gain a bonus on bullrush and do extra damage.

Dwarf Fighter Substitution Levels (RS, p 146): d12 hitdice, gain knowledge: dungeoneering
1st level: Axe Focus (+1 attack with axes), lose feat
2nd level: Racial Foes (+2 damage vs orcs, goblins, and giants), lose feat
8th level: Heavy Armor Expertise (+1 AC in heavy armor), lose a feat

Elusive Attack (PHB 2, p 44): Lose bonus feat. Make a full round action to make one attack and gain +2 dodge bonus to AC, increases with levels.

Half-Elf Fighter Substitution Levels (RD, p 157): d8 hitdice, extra skills
1st level: Blade focus (+1 attack with longsword and rapier), lose a feat
2nd level: Main Gauche (AC bonus from TWF), lose a feat
6th level: Confusing Banter (bluff or diplomacy check while fighting to add to attack), lose a feat

Kobold Fighter Substitution Levels (RDr, p 108): gain profession: miner and search
1st level: Spear focus (+1 attack with spears), Dodge. Lose bonus feat, medium, and heavy armor proficiency
2nd level: Constitution Boost (+2 Con), lose feat
4th level: Strength Boost (+2 Str), lose feat

Overpowering Attack (PHB 2, p 45): Lose bonus feat. Make a full round action to make one attack which deals double damage.

Planar Fighter (PlH, p 32): gain knowledge: the planes as class skill
4th level: Planar Study (+2 bonus damage vs outsiders and extraplanars), lose bonus feat
8th level: Align Puissnance (make weapon aligned), lose bonus feat
12th level: Aura of Stability (dimensional anchor on self), lose bonus feat

Raptorian Fighter Substitution Levels (RW, p 161):
1st level: Encumbered Flight (can carry medium load flying), lose heavy armor weapon proficiency
4th level: Airborne Strike (+2 damage when flying higher than opponent), lose feat
8th level: Fast Flight (+10' to glide speed), lose feat

Resolute (CC, p 48): lose a bonus feat. As an immediate action, reduce your BAB by half and add that amount to your will save.

Stealthy (UA, p 58): Lose bonus feats, gain sneak attack.

Thug (UA, p 51): No first-level bonus feat, only light armor. Extra class skills, adds Urban Tracking to bonus feat list

Warforged Fighter Substitution Levels (RE, p 130): d12 hitdice. Add craft and intimidate to class skills
1st level: Battle Hardened (+3 to initiative checks and saves vs fear), lose bonus feat
2nd level: Bonus Warforged Feat, replaces fighter feat
4th level: Body as Weapon (+2 damage with slams or warforged weapons), lose bonus feat

Zhentarim Figher Substitution Levels (CV, web): Add bluff and diplomacy to class skills.
3rd level: Bonus Feat: Skill Focus(intimidation)
5th level: Extended Intimidation: intimidation lasts longer
9th level: Swift Demoralization: itimidate as a swift action

[Metahuman1]

Weren't there also some variants in Dragon Mags?

I KNOW I've read about a Body guard variant that got more skills access (I think spot and listen, maybe more.) and a Variant were instead of Bonus feats you get the ability to give property's to your weapons as per the Kensai Class.

Don't forget Dwarf Sub levels. That first level one can tack an extra +2 damage on, which is not stellar but at level one it's useful and it remains relevant at 2nd level, and even at third against none beatsticks.

And then there's the AFC's form PHB II.


Edit: Factotumed!
And again, the idea isn't trade away your feats. Its you get your feats + all the things we'd normally give them up for that are part of the variants such as Sneak attack and Dungeon Crasher.

[Midnight_v]

Well some of them are good and some of them conclict, but I'd be interested to see what could be came up with if we started adding all that on. You might get something worthwhile out of all that picemealing.

[KillianHawkeye]

You'd pretty much have to add all those things up to make up for the Fighter's lack of a familiar. :smallbiggrin:

[vitkiraven]

So, It would kind of be like this?
Fighter, Skills:Bluff, Climb, Craft (all), Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Planes), Perform (Dance), Profession (Miner), Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Swim, Tumble,
Skill Points = 4+INT
Always Active (?) Armored Mage, Dragonscale Husk

1st Level: +1 BAB, 1d12 hp, Weapon Focuses: Light Blade, Axe, Spear Focus, Dodge Feat (B), Encumbered Flight, +5 initiative, +2 Dex to damage against flat-footed enemies, +3 to saves vrs Fear, Sneak Attack + 1d6, +1 Fighter Feat,
2nd Level: +2 BAB, 1d12 hp, Airborne Strike, Dancing Feint, Dungeon Crasher I, Racial Foes, Resolute, Two Weapon Defense with Main Gauche, +2 to Constitution, Bonus Warforged Feat, +1 Fighter Feat
3rd Level: +3 BAB, 1d10 HP, Physical Prowess, Skill Focus(intimidation) (B), Sneak Attack + 2d6,
4th Level: +4 BAB, 1d12 hp, Aligned Strike, Body as a Weapon, Confusing Banter, Fast Flight, Planar Study, +2 to Strength, +1 Fighter Feat
5th Level: +5 BAB, 1d10 HP, Extended Intimidation, Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack + 3d6,
6th Level: +6/+1 BAB, 1d10 HP, Dungeon Crasher II, Elusive Attack, Favored Enemy (Yochol), +1 Fighter Feat
7th Level: +7/+2 BAB, 1d10 HP, Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack + 4d6,
8th Level: +8/+3 BAB, 1d12 HP, Armor of God, Combat Dancing, Heavy Armor Expertise, +1 Fighter Feat
9th Level: +9/+4 BAB, 1d10 HP, Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack + 5d6, Swift Demoralization,
10th Level: +10/+5 BAB, 1d10 HP, +1 Fighter Feat
11th Level: +11/+6/+1 BAB, 1d10 HP, Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack + 6d6,,
12th Level: +12/+7/+2 BAB, 1d10 HP, Aura of Stability, Counter Attack, +1 Fighter Feat,
13th Level: +13/+8/+3 BAB, 1d10 HP, Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack + 7d6
14th Level: +14/+9/+4 BAB, 1d10 HP, +1 Fighter Feat
15th Level: +15/+10/+5 BAB, 1d10 HP, Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack + 8d6
16th Level: +16/+11/+6/+1 BAB, 1d10 HP, Overpowering Attack, +1 Fighter Feat
17th Level: +17/+12/+7/+2 BAB, 1d10 HP, Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack + 9d6
18th Level: +18/+13/+8/+3 BAB, 1d10 HP, +1 Fighter Feat
19th Level: +19/+14/+9/+4 BAB, 1d10 HP, Physical Prowess, Sneak Attack + 10d6
20th Level: +20/+15/+10/+5 BAB, 1d10 HP, +1 Fighter Feat

Take your First Level Character Feat as Wild Cohort, and Go to town with an ally to boot!

That's currently Beyond my level of Awesome to think about maybe in the AM...

EDIT (this is using only the best features, and when Fighter is Better, it overrides)

[sirpercival]

You might also be interested in this (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SbmzC9MHFBsJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D10511+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) (yay google cache).