What is the least optimizable PC class?

[sirpercival]

By that I don't mean "what is the worst class", because that's a matter of opinion (even commoners can be chicken-infested), I mean the PC class for which you are able to do the least class-specific optimizing?

[Diefje]

I'm leaning towards Sorceror. It's still solid because arcane full casting is so good, but you barely get any goodies from the class itself. 1 familiar, 7 feats, and int (tertiary stat) + 2 skillpoints...

Maybe it's just because they're doomed to live in the shadow of wizards.

[Flickerdart]

Sorcerer can be optimized quite thoroughly by spell selection and ACFs though. Ideally we would have a class that gets no features he can select, and no class-specific ACFs. Definitely something T5-6ish.

[Treblain]

I'd say soulknife.

[Xyk]

I'd say Warblade because it's good to start with but none of the maneuver options are much better than any others. I've never seen an incredible Warblade or a bad Warblade.

[Seerow]

Seconding soulknife.

[sirpercival]

Seconding soulknife.

I dunno about soulknife -- there's only one real PrC but it takes the class from non-playable to playable, so that's a pretty big boost. And it got a lot of Eberron support (though most of that sucked).

[Seerow]

I dunno about soulknife -- there's only one real PrC but it takes the class from non-playable to playable, so that's a pretty big boost. And it got a lot of Eberron support (though most of that sucked).

The one PRC takes it from terrible to on par with an optimized fighter, unless I'm mistaken (it's been a long time since I looked at the soulbow), and has basically no relevant support or customization options beyond that. And the core chasis is terrible in of itself, which should count for a lot.

[Mooncrow]

I know this is going to get a lot of flak, but it's actually fairly hard to optimize a druid in terms of feats and PrCs to take, etc. The core chassis is so strong that optimizing is more a choice of picking from the already-available options, not in anything that you can add to it.

[Amphetryon]

I find Lurk harder to optimize than Soulknife. Soulknife at least has a go-to option of sorts (Soulbow) and a couple of "filler" options. Lurk's PP progression and acquisition of powers is really tricky to compliment well with options.

[Big Fau]

Complete Warrior Samurai.

[Eldariel]

Knight is pretty high up there. Chassis that forces you to take it all the way to 20 for all the useful class features & lack of synergy with anything special. About the biggest thing it has going on for it is being full BAB with martial profs so you can do the basic Power Attack and Lockdown stuff with it (even one useful class feature for lockdown).

Then again, every full BAB class can be "optimized" by picking Shock Trooper & Leap Attack or Combat Reflexes+Thicket of Blades+Mage Slayer+Stand Still/Improved Trip so I guess all of those have a rather wide range of power levels for that reason alone.


Guess Soulknife is really pretty high up there but Soulbow exists to give it a clear bipolar good-bad nature.


I know this is going to get a lot of flak, but it's actually fairly hard to optimize a druid in terms of feats and PrCs to take, etc. The core chassis is so strong that optimizing is more a choice of picking from the already-available options, not in anything that you can add to it.

Eeeh. The core chassis is strong, sure, but you have your Planar Shepherd (it should really just be another Lightning Warrior) & stupid stuff like Venomfire, Fleshraker & co. that can be used to eke out significantly larger advantages from its class features, especially for trampling all over the auxillary functions of the class (which, I suppose, include everything).

[erikun]

Soulknife seems like a good choice, because it basically has one good prestige class if you want its class features to matter at all.

However, I will also mention Truenamer, because there is only one way to play it: 20 levels of Truenamer and optimize your Truespeak check. There are no prestige classes. You cannot reasonably gish, although Truenamer/Factotum might "work". There really isn't much else noteworthy with their abilities or skill list. The only major difference between one Truenamer and another is how high their Truespeak bonus is, which simply determines what they can do.

[graeylin]

Truenamer?

I have no idea really, never looked at the class, just heard so much... bad... about it.

[Mooncrow]

Eeeh. The core chassis is strong, sure, but you have your Planar Shepherd (it should really just be another Lightning Warrior) & stupid stuff like Venomfire, Fleshraker & co. that can be used to eke out significantly larger advantages from its class features, especially for trampling all over the auxillary functions of the class (which, I suppose, include everything).

Aside from Planar Shepard (which you have to admit almost never sees play in actual games) the rest of what you named is in the base chassis. You don't need special feats or anything to pick up a fleshraker or memorize Venomfire.

That's my only point though - there are very few character building options that make the druid significantly better. The real optimization lies almost entirely in choosing from the already-available options.

[Strormer]

Knight is pretty high up there. Chassis that forces you to take it all the way to 20 for all the useful class features & lack of synergy with anything special. About the biggest thing it has going on for it is being full BAB with martial profs so you can do the basic Power Attack and Lockdown stuff with it (even one useful class feature for lockdown).

I'm gonna second the Knight. I love the idea of the class, but there's not really much outside of the basics that you can do for it. I've never actually played a soulknife though, so I'm not sure.

[erikun]

Aside from Planar Shepard (which you have to admit almost never sees play in actual games) the rest of what you named is in the base chassis. You don't need special feats or anything to pick up a fleshraker or memorize Venomfire.

That's my only point though - there are very few character building options that make the druid significantly better. The real optimization lies almost entirely in choosing from the already-available options.
I would consider that optimizing, though. Choosing Sleep and Solid Fog over Magic Missile and Fireball is optimizing, even though they are choices available to every Wizard.

Optimization is becoming better at something, not necessarily becoming better at everything. Master of Many Forms improves Wildshape. Arcane Heirophant gives Wizard spellcasting as well. There are options to optimize summons and the animal companion. There is even getting the Fochlucan Lyrist to work. All are valid optimization routes a Druid can take, mainly because of the large number of good abilities the base Druid has access to.

[Flickerdart]

Truenamer?

I have no idea really, never looked at the class, just heard so much... bad... about it.
It's bad, but doesn't really fit under the criteria here, because it can be optimized all the way up to decent.

[Eldariel]

Aside from Planar Shepard (which you have to admit almost never sees play in actual games) the rest of what you named is in the base chassis. You don't need special feats or anything to pick up a fleshraker or memorize Venomfire.

That's my only point though - there are very few character building options that make the druid significantly better. The real optimization lies almost entirely in choosing from the already-available options.

Well, feats are pretty big. Natural Spell is the obvious one but then there's Assume Supernatural Ability, Aberration Wildshape (especially hilarious combined with the former), Rashemi Elemental Summoning and Greenbound Summoning just to name a few. Druids have a significant bunch of semi-exclusive feats that range from nuts to what-the-****-was-the-writer-drinking-while-thinking-this-****-up nuts.

[Curmudgeon]

Knight, I think. The code of conduct and inability to gain anything from flanking make it hard to add anything to the class that you couldn't also do with a Fighter.

[deuxhero]

Some obscure Dragon class.

[BlackestOfMages]

Well, feats are pretty big. Natural Spell is the obvious one but then there's Assume Supernatural Ability, Aberration Wildshape (especially hilarious combined with the former), Rashemi Elemental Summoning and Greenbound Summoning just to name a few. Druids have a significant bunch of semi-exclusive feats that range from nuts to what-the-****-was-the-writer-drinking-while-thinking-this-****-up nuts.

the problem there lies in the fact wizards 'playtesters' didn't use wildshape for anything other than scouting, and thus never realised how potent it was (whcih requires concussion, I'll admit...) so they made it stronger and thus it is rediculously easy to overoptimize with all the godly wilshape boosts out there, and the PrC access

I'd say samurai because you have no choice in it's build, and being able to take some things other people do better is not optimising :smallsigh: it's just removing your crapness...

[erikun]

It's bad, but doesn't really fit under the criteria here, because it can be optimized all the way up to decent.
I'm not too sure about that; saying that the Truenamer doesn't count because you can optimize Truespeak to make them relevant would be like saying the Soulknife doesn't count because you can optimize Use Magic Device and allow they to cast spells. :smalltongue:

The sad part is that, even fully optimized, it doesn't come out that great. A Samurai with can manipulate the battlefield with an optimized Intimidate, can end encounters with an optimized Diplomancy, and can do relevant damage with an optimized Iaijutsu Strike. A Truenamer can simply participate with an optimized Truespeak, and just can't do anything otherwise.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

By that I don't mean "what is the worst class", because that's a matter of opinion (even commoners can be chicken-infested), I mean the PC class for which you are able to do the least class-specific optimizing?

What are we defining as "class-specific optimizing?" Or, rather, what would be non "class-specific" optimization? Because I can't think of any class which doesn't have a schtick that can be optimized - even the Fighter (with proper ACFs) and Complete Warrior Samurai can do something beyond what is open to everyone, namely "I hit it."

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Monks have got to be up there, not because they suck but because of why they suck: none of their tricks work together, and there's no way to improve the majority of them.

[Flickerdart]

Monks have got to be up there, not because they suck but because of why they suck: none of their tricks work together, and there's no way to improve the majority of them.
Monks have a fair bit of options though - the various fighting styles give them a good selection of bonus feats, there are a number of Monk-only PrCs of various usefulness, and then Tashalatora makes Monk levels at least useful when all else fails. They might not have a lot of great options, but they have many class-specific ones.

[Mooncrow]

Monks have got to be up there, not because they suck but because of why they suck: none of their tricks work together, and there's no way to improve the majority of them.

Except you can go Sacred Fist or something similar and end up doing very well.

[Mooncrow]

Well, feats are pretty big. Natural Spell is the obvious one but then there's Assume Supernatural Ability, Aberration Wildshape (especially hilarious combined with the former), Rashemi Elemental Summoning and Greenbound Summoning just to name a few. Druids have a significant bunch of semi-exclusive feats that range from nuts to what-the-****-was-the-writer-drinking-while-thinking-this-****-up nuts.

Assume Supernatural Ability, yeah. That's another that I forget about since it's rarely allowed. The rest, eh, they're strong, but they still don't increase the relative power of the class much.

Most classes' power level depends on one strong feature that you can either improve on or add to with the right feats and PrCs. The druid's power depends on three separate class abilities, and to really improve one ends up costing power from one or both of the other two. So the opportunity cost of most PrCs and ACFs end up not being worth it. For example, the Shifter 1st level druid ACF, trades your animal companion for an amazing amount of summoning power and personal buffs - and yet, when stacked up against a baseline druid, ends up behind.

So, that's what I mean when I talk about the druid being hard to optimize. There really isn't any other class that you can't literally double the effectiveness, or more, even without resorting to cheese. Though the already mentioned Soul Knife, Lurk and Truenamer are considerably harder to work with.

Even the other Tier 1 classes can be optimized to a much larger degree - compare the druid's options to the power boost that a cleric gets from DMM, or adding Incantatrix, or Anima Mage to Wizard. They can all advance their core strength without giving up a whole lot from their other class features.

[Eldariel]

Even the other Tier 1 classes can be optimized to a much larger degree - compare the druid's options to the power boost that a cleric gets from DMM, or adding Incantatrix, or Anima Mage to Wizard. They can all advance their core strength without giving up a whole lot from their other class features.

Couldn't you apply the same "rarely allowed" clause here too?

[Gorgondantess]

I'm going to say warblade here. It is simply a solid class in its own right, and there is little you can do to make it better; there are a lot of rewards for multi classing and PrCing, but it also works great on its own: the capstone alone is pretty good reason to go Warblade 20, and all the maneuvers are so bottom line decent that the only way you can really seriously mess up the class is to never use them.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

So we're saying, what class has the lowest difference between (practical) optimization floor and ceiling, barring tricks that you could do with any other class?

If that's the case, I'm going with Commoner, assuming no chicken infested shenanigans. Reason being you can't do anything useful with commoner that you couldn't do with another class... or at least Expert.

If you take NPCs off the table, hm...

Druids can actually be optimized a lot. See: Spell selection, Wildshape optimization, AC optimization, Planar Shepherd. Basically all the T1s have such high ceilings that they're not going to win, even if Druid's floor is really high.

Warblade is a definite contender, because his floor is quite high and his ceiling is, well, still T3. Crusader is also here... but you can definitely screw up a Swordsage.

CW Samurai can use Shneeky's intimidation trick to be viable, but that's still a one-trick pony. So the ceiling isn't that high, but the floor is so low...

Monk's floor is too low. You can make it much more relevant through multiclassing. If you have to go straight Monk 20, Monk is a contender.

Truenamer's floor is "completely unplayable," so they're out.

I guess my vote is Aristocrat or Warblade.

[Mooncrow]

Couldn't you apply the same "rarely allowed" clause here too?

Not really, since I see all of those options in play on a regular basis; they're pretty common in high-op environments. But the Planar Shepard thing is really more that it goes into Pun Pun levels of stupid. And there's no middle ground there really, either you allow Dal Quor and/or Fernia and the druid breaks the game, or you don't and then Planar Shepard is barely an upgrade over base druid.

But I guess unless there's more direction on how we're defining terms for the OP's question, it's probably pointless to argue about it.

[ranagrande]

The Epic Mystic Theurge. Worst class ever.

[Thiyr]

I'm actually gonna go with Dragon Shaman on this one. The only real optimization I can think of for it is...entangling exhalation, or no entangling exhalation. There's really no notable choices anywhere in the class, and the class has so little support it's not funny, meaning there's no added options elsewhere aside from a handful of extra auras, and no PrCs that do anything for any of your abilities.

And seriously, who actually remembers the DS when thinking about classes?

[Mystic Muse]

I'm actually gonna go with Dragon Shaman on this one. The only real optimization I can think of for it is...entangling exhalation, or no entangling exhalation. There's really no notable choices anywhere in the class, and the class has so little support it's not funny, meaning there's no added options elsewhere aside from a handful of extra auras, and no PrCs that do anything for any of your abilities.

And seriously, who actually remembers the DS when thinking about classes?

I know I don't!

I agree with Commoner. There's just really nothing you can do with it other than chicken infested.

[DeAnno]

I would say Dragon Shaman without metabreath feats is much worse than with, and those aren't in the same book. That's enough of a gulf to matter.

I agree that you'd have to be trying to truly screw up a Warblade, though they do get very strong benefits out of multiclassing. As good as the capstone is, you only have it at level 20, so striving for it is something of a trap in a 1-20 game where 2-6 levels of multiclass will do you so much good.

Even discarding planar shepherd, knowing proper spells to prepare, wild shapes and animal companions, etc, etc is going to change your power level around a lot. The ceiling for Druid is quite high, and the floor for prepared casters is always pretty low if they're mismanaged (They could theoretically recover from mismanagement easily, but that's not what's up for debate).

Even knowing enough to go with Charging or Lockdown on a Knight is a decent amount of optimization in itself, and will have a huge impact on your effectiveness. The same can be said for a Samurai, except that it's Charging or Intimidation.

I would actually go with the Marshal. Most people who aren't totally dumb will have enough Cha to make the minor Auras decent, and most of those choices are between great and fairly solid. Medium BaB and the lack of melee features means they won't get much out of a lot of common high op melee tactics like charging and lockdown. IIRC, they don't get UMD, though one could argue they should invest cross-class with their high Charisma. Really, a Marshal sort of is what it is, and manages to be straightforward about it.

[erikun]

I know I don't!

I agree with Commoner. There's just really nothing you can do with it other than chicken infested.
Handle Animal optimization, although I'm probably scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point.

[Ceaon]

This is a good question, I like it.
I'm gonna say the least optimizable PC class is definitely NOT a spellcasting class, since spell selection is the most important choice in optimization. You can even make a wizard useless by selecting certain spells.

So it's a class with few changeable features, that gains no real benefit from feats and PrCs. It's probably a strong class, since weak classes can be optimized by certain common tricks like Leadership and UMD.

I was gonna say warblade, but he can optimize his maneouver selection... So, I just outwitted myself.

[kulosle]

i thought this was a well established fact. it's almost stated right in the text that the healer is the least optimizable class. there are so few ways of upping how much you heal. all healers dip into cleric to get domains and turn undead. they dip into paladin for cha to saves, and they get their cha as high as possible through race and templates and they take the PrC that ups your cha (AFB can't remeber its name worships god of love or something like that), or radiant servent of palor. their feat selection is always the same (augmented healing oohh). the only way to play a "bad" (granted they are already bad, but not as bad as a heal bot cleric) is to be stupid about it (not upping charisma or preparing cure spells). and you can't raise their power level (what power level)

[Wings of Peace]

I'd like to give the Soulborn a friendly shout out.

[ranagrande]

i thought this was a well established fact. it's almost stated right in the text that the healer is the least optimizable class. there are so few ways of upping how much you heal. all healers dip into cleric to get domains and turn undead. they dip into paladin for cha to saves, and they get their cha as high as possible through race and templates and they take the PrC that ups your cha (AFB can't remeber its name worships god of love or something like that), or radiant servent of palor. their feat selection is always the same (augmented healing oohh). the only way to play a "bad" (granted they are already bad, but not as bad as a heal bot cleric) is to be stupid about it (not upping charisma or preparing cure spells). and you can't raise their power level (what power level)
There are actually a lot of ways to optimize a Healer. Sure, you can leave it as it and play a heal bot (or a blaster in a heavy undead campaign), but there are many others things you can do too.

Something simple like Healer 8/Divine Oracle 2/Sovereign Speaker 10 will take you at least to Tier 2.

Or you can do silly things like take Rogue and Spellwarp Sniper levels and sneak attack everyone with Remove Paralysis. It's sub-optimal, but it's hilarious.

[sirpercival]

So we're saying, what class has the lowest difference between (practical) optimization floor and ceiling, barring tricks that you could do with any other class?


This is exactly my question (though I limited it to PC classes since NPC classes get zero support besides chicken-infested and adepts).

I'm having mixed feelings about the Monk; there are a lot of options for optimizing (most of them suck), but really the best way to optimize a monk is to play a different class that does the same things but better.

Druids, just like other non-spontaneous spellcasters, can be optimized for each given encounter by spell selection, so that brings them off the table.

It's not an easy question to answer -- the brilliant minds of CO'ers everywhere have managed to optimize almost everything.

I think I'm going to go with Truenamer, because "optimizing your Truespeak check" is the ONLY thing you can do with them besides multiclass. And optimizing one skill is just... yeah.

[sonofzeal]

Druid's out. The difference between a Druid that has access to Wildling Clasps and one that doesn't is huge, as is proper selection of combat forms. Contrary to popular opinion Wildshape is not a "win-button"; animal forms tend to have seriously pathetic AC, and your hp doesn't go up with your new Con, meaning you're incredibly fragile for a frontliner... and few if any animal forms give you combat options that don't leave you wide open for counterattack unless you're counting on using your spells rather than your attacks for damage. A poorly made Druid is powerful but likely to be the PC with the lowest life expectancy in any normal group. And even ignoring that, there's tones of Druid-specific feats, or feats that go extremely well for them. Druids can optimize for SNA power quite well.

Commoner's out, if only because it's me making the call and Bubs is mine. And the difference in power between Bubs and a normal Commoner of even twice his level is ridiculous. It's not exactly "class specific", but only a minority of classes could pull it off either.

Truenamer's a contender. All you can optimize for is Truename check... but there's a lot of optimizing you can do there. Heck, any given player group can likely be sorted by optimization strength by how high they can get it, with a nice spread between the TO pros and the standard optimizers and the newbies. But the difference between a well-optimized Truenamer and a poorly-optimized one isn't that great, I'll admit.




My candidate is Healer. Below lvl 17, optimizing a Healer means... just about nothing. There's a couple feats that help a little, Augment Healing and Spontaneous Healing come to mind. Possibly Touch of Healing from CChamp. Cloudy Conjuration is a bit odd but technically works I think. But that's about it. There's probably a little that can be done with the Unicorn Companion, but since it doesn't count as an Animal Companion, and no feats or PrCs or other options exist to target it, I'm really not sure what can be done beyond playing with its two feats.

There's really nowhere to go with the Healer. Even the Truenamer has more going on; they're hampered by terrible DCs, but if they can optimize enough then there are some things they can do that nobody else can, even if they're not on the order that a Sor/Wiz can toss out before breakfast. A well-optimized Truenamer with Item Familiar and Paragnostic Whoozit and all isn't terrific, but still miles better than one simply counting on high Int and max ranks. A Healer... is a Healer. A poorly optimized one is a functioning bandaid box (marginally better than a CLW wand since they can also remove status afflictions), and a well-optimized one... is a functioning bandaid box, and still only nominally better than a good stock of CLW wands.

Truenamers go from "omgwtfbbqBAD" to "hmm..." while Healers go from "meh" to "meh". Thus I argue Healers are the least optimizable class in the game.

Or, y'know, until they hit 17 and gain Gate.

[sonofzeal]

There are actually a lot of ways to optimize a Healer. Sure, you can leave it as it and play a heal bot (or a blaster in a heavy undead campaign), but there are many others things you can do too.

Something simple like Healer 8/Divine Oracle 2/Sovereign Speaker 10 will take you at least to Tier 2.

Or you can do silly things like take Rogue and Spellwarp Sniper levels and sneak attack everyone with Remove Paralysis. It's sub-optimal, but it's hilarious.
Healers, not having Domain Spell Slots (barring awkward readings of Divine Oracle that aren't strictly RAW and don't appear to be RAI either), gain comparatively little benefit from Sovereign Speaker. For two feats and two caster levels and some seriously setting-specific material... you get all of three extra spells. The Domain powers are nice, and Divine Oracle gives some goodies, but the basic dynamic hasn't substantially changed. A 1/day Teleport (Portal Domain) or Haste (Time Domain) isn't much to brag about. And by the time you can get that 7th level slot for Forcecage (Force Domain), a straight Healer has or is pretty close to getting 9ths and Gate. Your build, while definitely an improvement by any standards, still won't significantly differ from an unoptimized Healer without some exceedingly specialized spell choice.

I'd almost rather just go straight Healer and keep my feats for Martial Study or Open Chakra or whatnot, stuff anyone can access, and have a viable special companion. A 16th level Healer can get a Couatl, and while they're far less relevant at that high level, they're still plain cool. And they bring more spell flexibility to the table than Sovereign Speaker would.

[Cogidubnus]

These aren't the worst classes, but they're a bellyache to optimise.

1) Swashbuckler. It's MAD as you can be, it's weapons don't allow power attack and a melee class to boot.

2) Warlock. There are two great choices for blaster Warlocks, and neither's in Complete Arcane. As a prestige class, Hellfire Warlock is virtually necessary, but bigger than that is Eldritch Glaive. Iterative attacks are the only way to keep a Warlock's damage decent, but this involves sticking yourself into melee with you d6 Hit Die.

[Psyren]

The answer is Druid.

There is only one PrC that is better than going straight Druid - every other PrC out there actually makes it weaker. Even something like Arcane Hierophant, which does add versatility, ends up making it MAD as well.

Druids are the hardest to optimize because there's so little you can do to them to make them better than they already are.


I vote against Healer because with optimization, you can bump them up more than one tier. Use Sanctified Magic, PrCs that grant domains/TU, and/or focus on optimizing their mount - you have several avenues to explore, each of which can increase their power noticeably as the Healer Handbook shows. You can get them, if not on par with a cleric, at least better off than a Shugenja because they are prepared casters.

[Mooncrow]

Healers, not having Domain Spell Slots (barring awkward readings of Divine Oracle that aren't strictly RAW and don't appear to be RAI either), gain comparatively little benefit from Sovereign Speaker. For two feats and two caster levels and some seriously setting-specific material... you get all of three extra spells. The Domain powers are nice, and Divine Oracle gives some goodies, but the basic dynamic hasn't substantially changed. A 1/day Teleport (Portal Domain) or Haste (Time Domain) isn't much to brag about. And by the time you can get that 7th level slot for Forcecage (Force Domain), a straight Healer has or is pretty close to getting 9ths and Gate. Your build, while definitely an improvement by any standards, still won't significantly differ from an unoptimized Healer without some exceedingly specialized spell choice.

I'd almost rather just go straight Healer and keep my feats for Martial Study or Open Chakra or whatnot, stuff anyone can access, and have a viable special companion. A 16th level Healer can get a Couatl, and while they're far less relevant at that high level, they're still plain cool. And they bring more spell flexibility to the table than Sovereign Speaker would.

A single level of Holt Warden can fix the lack of domain slots without any problem.

[Flickerdart]

Oh! Oh! Marshal!

You get a pathetically tiny amount of auras and they're all terrible - and they make up the bulk of your abilities.

[Psyren]

A single level of Holt Warden can fix the lack of domain slots without any problem.

Not only that, but they get both Know(Nature) and Survival as class skills too (presumably to tend to their unicorns.)

[TheGeckoKing]

Looking at it, I'd say Marshall. Spellcasters/Shadowcasters/Invokers/Binders/Meldshapers/Insert Generic Supernatural System have at least SOMETHING to optimise, or in Soulknife's case have a Prc that they can go into. Fighter has feats, Samurai has Intimidate, and even Commoner has those chickens.
Marshall has a bunch of sucky auras and a few class abilities I do not care for. For 20 levels.

[Siosilvar]

And seriously, who actually remembers the DS when thinking about classes?

I do. That's usually because I'm looking at taking Dragon Shaman 1/DFA 19.

Least optimization potential... I think maybe Soulborn. I'm not sure it's possible to make Soulborn much better than it is. It doesn't get neat fear effects like CW Samurai, it doesn't get feats like Fighter, and the only thing it's got going for it is a pretty weak selection of Incarnum and Paladin casting.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm leaning towards Sorceror. It's still solid because arcane full casting is so good, but you barely get any goodies from the class itself. 1 familiar, 7 feats, and int (tertiary stat) + 2 skillpoints...

Maybe it's just because they're doomed to live in the shadow of wizards.
So my sorcerer who picks Magic Missile and Sleep is just as good as the one who picks Grease and Mage Armor? At 4th level, he's just as good with Scorching Ray as Invisibility? At 6th level, he's just as good whether he picks Fireball or Fly?

I'd say Warblade because it's good to start with but none of the maneuver options are much better than any others. I've never seen an incredible Warblade or a bad Warblade.
Iron Heart Surge.

I know this is going to get a lot of flak, but it's actually fairly hard to optimize a druid in terms of feats and PrCs to take, etc. The core chassis is so strong that optimizing is more a choice of picking from the already-available options, not in anything that you can add to it.
So the one who uses a scimitar and never Wild Shapes because he loses his gear that has an eagle companion is just as good as the one that's in fleshraker form all day and has a warbeast fleshraker companion?

Complete Warrior Samurai.
Takahashi No Oni.

Monks have got to be up there, not because they suck but because of why they suck: none of their tricks work together, and there's no way to improve the majority of them.

ACFs, and feats and PrCs that are obviously meant for monks.



I say... swordsage.

[ClockShock]

The answer is Druid.

The wrong answer is Druid.

Having more options means there's more things to optimise. The fact that they're so good already means they're incredibly easy to point down one road or another.

Optimisation isn't necessarily about how much power you can gain, but how effectively your goals can be achieved within the rules of the game.

A cleric can be optimised for in-combat healing. He might end up worse than Mr. Vanilla Cleric, but he's still optimised.

Druids have so many different class features which are strong enough on their own that they can pick any of them and optimise it effectively.
Just consider all of the different themed druids you could build: werewolf / wolf pack leader / god of plants / fire druid (i think there's enough fire spells to work with) / ranger / etc.

[Doc Roc]

I'm going with Swashbuckler or Marshall. Healer, well, I can get some tricks going there.

[Mooncrow]

Unless we talk about what we mean by "optimizable", this is just an exercise in semantics at this point.

[Eldariel]

Not really, since I see all of those options in play on a regular basis; they're pretty common in high-op environments. But the Planar Shepard thing is really more that it goes into Pun Pun levels of stupid. And there's no middle ground there really, either you allow Dal Quor and/or Fernia and the druid breaks the game, or you don't and then Planar Shepard is barely an upgrade over base druid.

But I guess unless there's more direction on how we're defining terms for the OP's question, it's probably pointless to argue about it.

Eh, in my books Incantatrix is as bad as PS. PS gives more tricks, but none the other classes don't get (tho a tad earlier and stronger).

[Weezer]

So the one who uses a scimitar and never Wild Shapes because he loses his gear that has an eagle companion is just as good as the one that's in fleshraker form all day and has a warbeast fleshraker companion?


That first example sounds a lot like my first ever Druid. I played him like a blaster, never used summons or wildshape and my animal companion tended to disappear off into forgotten land. My brother who played an archery focused ranger and refused to use any spells was more effective than I was. So yes, there is a vast difference between a badly played Druid and an optimized one.

[Diefje]

So my sorcerer who picks Magic Missile and Sleep is just as good as the one who picks Grease and Mage Armor? At 4th level, he's just as good with Scorching Ray as Invisibility? At 6th level, he's just as good whether he picks Fireball or Fly?

Of course not. But what I meant was, once you have your spells which are superawesome and highly customizable (and very much open for de-optimization), I feel you have little to optimize. If you really want to bump up the versatility and the power, my mind goes straight to "it'd be better as a wizard", because all the Sorc specific stuff really isn't that impressive. I don't assume a baseline Sorceror with all his spellslots filled with only Mending and Flare.

[Mooncrow]

Eh, in my books Incantatrix is as bad as PS. PS gives more tricks, but none the other classes don't get (tho a tad earlier and stronger).

Really? I think the incantatrix kind of pales next to being able to take 10 rounds to the opponent's 1, or having a large number of cost free wishes per day. And if those are disallowed, the Planar Shepherd doesn't add a whole lot to the class.

Yes, if we're going to talk about choosing what spells to prepare, which animal companion the druid picks, what wild shapes they choose to change to, and whether they play like a moron or not as optimization, then yeah, the druid has a fairly large variance. The difference between that and some of the other classes being discussed though, is that the theoretical "moron druid" can read a guide and come back the next day, and without changing a single build option, turn into a 90% of what a druid's ceiling is.

[sirpercival]

Unless we talk about what we mean by "optimizable", this is just an exercise in semantics at this point.

My question, to paraphrase GoodbyeSoberDay, is:

What class has the smallest difference between practical optimization floor and ceiling, barring tricks that you could do with any other class?

[Mooncrow]

My question, to paraphrase GoodbyeSoberDay, is:

What class has the smallest difference between practical optimization floor and ceiling, barring tricks that you could do with any other class?

Are you including things like "which spells the character chooses each day", or other things that are not dependent on making actual build choices?

I had assumed it was "player X, the smart optimizer, playing class Y with build Z vs player X playing class Y with build N".

[sirpercival]

Aren't things like choosing daily spells build choices? Or what are you defining as build choices?

[Diefje]

It almost becomes a competition of who can make the worst build.

Gogo Sorceror with an intelligent Axe that he never uses, dual wield nunchucks, and only Flare as his spells

[Mooncrow]

Aren't things like choosing daily spells build choices? Or what are you defining as build choices?

Feats, skills and class levels mostly. Things that can't be changed once decided, or at least not without some work.

For example, yeah a druid can be played poorly, with a bad pet, bad wildshape choices, and poor spell selection. But the player could read a guide, and then come back the next week and without changing a single thing in the build, come out a swinging powerhouse.

Yes, that's optimization, to a point I guess, but it's all about player knowledge rather than building a character. But I'll concede the point since this is your thread^^

[Zaq]

Knight's a solid contender. Most of them end up looking pretty dang similar, and there's not much you can do to say "this is an average Knight, but if you just did X, Y, and Z, it would be a GREAT Knight."

I'm probably missing something that gives them a greater ceiling or lower floor, but Ninja seems like a contender as well. It's pretty much already decided what you're going to do . . . hide (with or without invisibility) and stab folks, though not very well. And you'll have some movement skills, probably. Maybe some poison. Yeah, once again, there's relatively few situations in which I think it would make sense to say "this is an average Ninja, but with these changes, it would be a great Ninja." Intentional deoptimization is possible, of course, but you can also play an 8 INT Wizard, and from what I'm seeing here, we're talking about baseline optimization to start with, not rock bottom.

[Psyren]

Actually, I'm changing my vote to Swashbuckler. I really don't see much you can do to improve that class. (Without multiclassing.)

[Seerow]

Actually, I'm changing my vote to Swashbuckler. I really don't see much you can do to improve that class.

Daring Outlaw?


Edit: Got ninja-edited. But still, multiclassing is a part of the optimization process. Otherwise Soulknife does win hands down because it takes Soulbow out of the running.

[Psyren]

Daring Outlaw?

See edit, quickdraw.

If multiclassing is allowed you can optimize any of these to 11.

No, Soulknife doesn't count because while PrC'ing is a form of multiclassing, you're still just a Soulknife base.

[Seerow]

See edit, quickdraw.

We really need to stop doing this (see my edit)

[Psyren]

We really need to stop doing this (see my edit)

Too late, see my edit :smalltongue:

[Mooncrow]

Well, without multiclassing, then really we're just discussing the Tier system again :p

[Psyren]

Well, without multiclassing, then really we're just discussing the Tier system again :p

Not at all. Healer and Adept can be boosted significantly just with the base class and PrCs. They are therefore very optimizable.

If you allow other base classes, things like Marshal go nuts, because it's a great dip for lots of things.

[Mooncrow]

Not at all. Healer and Adept can be boosted significantly just with the base class and PrCs. They are therefore very optimizable.

If you allow other base classes, things like Marshal go nuts, because it's a great dip for lots of things.

Ah, my bad, I thought you were meaning to disallow PrCs as well.

[sirpercival]

Alright, since it's confusing (and probably will remain so, but I can try) let's redefine this slightly.

Which PC class has the least optimizing potential, in terms of effectiveness above a new player or an iconic build (a la sword&board fighter, healbot cleric)? Or, another way to put it -- for which class does experience and encyclopedic knowledge of the system help the least?

Asking the question this way seems to be a good guide for what classes to point newbie players at, but that's not exactly what I'm looking for.

EDIT: In terms of multiclassing & PrCs, lets say that the class in question is the primary concept and donor of character mechanics/tactics. So a wizard is a wizard even if it's also a binder/anima mage, where a crusader is not a crusader if it's a crusader 1/cleric 4/RKV (that's really a cleric).

[DeAnno]

The way I look at this, you're looking for the class with the smallest "standard deviation" on the optimizing spectrum. On the scale of all Druids ever played, you would take the Druid better than 5% of all Druids, and the Druid better than 95% of all Druids, and judge the distance between them.

Also, I don't count "dips" as identifying as part of that class. My Kobold Sorc 6/Incantatrix 10/Arcane Devotee 3/Marshal 1 with a Greater Rite to offset the caster level loss and the Marshal Aura to apply his cha bonus to his hide and initiative checks doesn't really count as a "Marshal".

[sirpercival]

The way I look at this, you're looking for the class with the smallest "standard deviation" on the optimizing spectrum. On the scale of all Druids ever played, you would take the Druid better than 5% of all Druids, and the Druid better than 95% of all Druids, and judge the distance between them.

Also, I don't count "dips" as identifying as part of that class. My Kobold Sorc 6/Incantatrix 10/Arcane Devotee 3/Marshal 1 with a Greater Rite to offset the caster level loss and the Marshal Aura to apply his cha bonus to his hide and initiative checks doesn't really count as a "Marshal".

Yes, that's a good way to define it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Feats, skills and class levels mostly. Things that can't be changed once decided, or at least not without some work.

For example, yeah a druid can be played poorly, with a bad pet, bad wildshape choices, and poor spell selection. But the player could read a guide, and then come back the next week and without changing a single thing in the build, come out a swinging powerhouse.

Yes, that's optimization, to a point I guess, but it's all about player knowledge rather than building a character. But I'll concede the point since this is your thread^^

No!

Choosing spells are build choices! Sure, you can swap them out when you find some cool build and ditch your animal companion for a fleshraker, but the fighter can also use retraining to switch from sword n' board to spike chain tripper, and you don't see anyone saying fighter is nearly equal no matter what build you use because of retraining.

[Saph]

I'm going to say Marshall, unless someone can come up with an effective Marshall build that doesn't boil down to "take as few levels of Marshall as possible."

Swashbuckler at least has Daring Outlaw, and Healer is definitely out - it's still a full caster.

[Aharon]

I'm going to say Marshall, unless someone can come up with an effective Marshall build that doesn't boil down to "take as few levels of Marshall as possible."

Swashbuckler at least has Daring Outlaw, and Healer is definitely out - it's still a full caster.

He owes much of his effectiveness to his race, but still...
Sir Hubert Jass, by Carnivore (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866778/A_Practical_Marshal_20_....?pg=1)

[Kalaska'Agathas]

No!

Choosing spells are build choices! Sure, you can swap them out when you find some cool build and ditch your animal companion for a fleshraker, but the fighter can also use retraining to switch from sword n' board to spike chain tripper, and you don't see anyone saying fighter is nearly equal no matter what build you use because of retraining.

Choosing spells are build choices for those casters with a number of spells known which is less than the number of spells available for them to take. That is, choosing spells is a build choice for Sorcerers, because (except occasionally) they have no means of changing the spells they know from day to day, with the abilities they have in class (so no PsyReform, for example). A Druid, on the other hand, knows all Druid spells printed, and can select from any of them day to day, so Druid spell selection is not a build choice.

Being able to retrain from a sword and board Fighter to a spiked chain tripper, however, is not the same as a Druid picking better spells or wild shape forms, because it is only allowed upon attaining a new level, and only one feat (or spell, etc.) may be changed at a time. In addition, the Retraining rules are not always allowed, whereas the Druid, by both RAW and the core rules (which, to some extent or another, serve as the basis for the whole game), are allowed to swap spells and wildshape forms in this manner.


My question, to paraphrase GoodbyeSoberDay, is:

What class has the smallest difference between practical optimization floor and ceiling, barring tricks that you could do with any other class?

Well, with that definition, I think the answer would have to be the Aristocrat, as it has no unique class features, or options (of which I'm aware). However, since the Aristocrat is not a PC class, it is disqualified. But, all is not lost - we can take the Aristocrat as an example. In essence, we are looking for the PC class which is most like the Aristocrat; one without options or features unique to that class, and which has no Prestige Classes, Feats, or other options which require use of that class specifically.

I say this because the difference between practical optimization floor and ceiling comes from the choices we make in building a character of that class. But, we are limited to those choices which "...you [couldn't] do with any other class," so things like charging, tripping, skill optimizing (except, perhaps, in the case of the Expert, since they choose their class skills, and in the case of those classes which receive a feature which provides new uses for or effects of a skill (Zhentarim Fighter, etc.)), and such decisions aren't the choices we are interested in since, for example, you can make a charger or a tripper or whatever out of anything - sure a charging Wizard won't be as good a charger as a 'hood, but you can still do it, so that sort of thing is out.

This leaves me searching for a PC class that doesn't have at least some sort of unique schtick they can do, or choice they can make. I'm not sure there is a PC class printed that fits that requirement.

So, then, I think we are most likely to find our "least optimizable PC class" in the Tier 1 casters. Specifically, I think we'll find the Druid to be the "least optimizable" for our definition of the term. The Druid is, out of the box, very good in combat (Animal Companion, Wildshape, Spells), and, even if they choose poorly, they can easily and quickly change those choices (AC costs 24 hours of prayer, and nothing else, Wildshape costs a use of Wildshape, Spells cost eight hours of rest and one hour of preparation). In addition, Druids, out of the box, have decent skills off of a decent list, and which they can augment (in various ways) with their Animal Companion, Wildshape, and Spells. They have a very low optimization floor, because you would have to actively make them worse in order to take that away (somehow force your character to wear metal armor all of the time, force them to teach Druidic to non-Druids (which doesn't have any specific penalties in the rules, as far as I could find), or play an alignment which is prohibited). And, indeed, a druid who took nothing but "Extra Favored Class" as a feat every third level still has an Animal Companion, Wildshape, and Spells. No, a Druid should only perform poorly if the campaign places undue restrictions on them (in terms of alignment, armor material, Animal Companions, Wildshape forms, and Spells) or if they are being played poorly (i.e. if they are ignoring their Animal Companion, not Wildshaping, or not Casting).

The optimization ceiling, on the other hand, could prove problematic for this assertion. A Druid has access to ninth level spells, and from a good list, and that is by itself enough to break the game. And, depending on how far you take it, your Druid can be getting a 10 to 1 advantage in the action economy, the ability to Wildshape into outsiders (in order to gain their Casting (being an Ex: ability), Su:, and Sla: abilities), feats which make their summoned creatures extraordinarily powerful, Wizard casting (if your DM is open to Prestige Ranger, how said DM defines "Ranger Spell Slots" on a Druid/Prestige Ranger, and if they allow Sword of the Arcane Order), and other abilities which simply break the game. And in Epic play, they have access to Epic Spellcasting.

However, since we're dealing with the difference between "...practical optimization floor and ceiling," the Druid's potential to break the game is much less of an issue. Really, practical optimization for a Druid consists of taking Natural Spell at level six. Therefore, the floor and ceiling between the levels of practical optimization on a Druid are the closest of any PC class which I can think of.

[Dr.Epic]

I'm leaning toward barbarian. Without a cool PrC, it's just not that good. you get rage, take power attack, cleave, weapon focus, and wield either a big sword or a big axe. At least with fighter, there are a ton of feats out there so you have different builds to consider.

[Flickerdart]

I'm leaning toward barbarian. Without a cool PrC, it's just not that good. you get rage, take power attack, cleave, weapon focus, and wield either a big sword or a big axe. At least with fighter, there are a ton of feats out there so you have different builds to consider.
Barbarian has two sets of totems, several different kinds of Rage and a veritable bevy of ACFs. Two level 20 Barbarians could have completely different sets of abilities.

[NeoSeraphi]

I actually believe that the Spell to Power erudite is...:smallbiggrin: *cracks up* Sorry, I'm sorry, I couldn't finish that sentence with a straight face.

In my opinion, the hardest class to optimize is the paladin. (See word choice: hardest, not least optimizable). The paladin gets no class features after 6th level and his spell list is just so incredibly small (combined with only getting 4th level spells, many of which don't require saves, so there's little reason to optimize your Wisdom in order to get more bonus spells per day)

And while the Battle Blessing feat is nice, it's not exactly optimizing. (then again, most of my spell slots with paladin go towards rhino's rush, which is a swift action to cast anyway)

[GnomeGninjas]

I think CW samurai

[CactusAir]

The Dragonlance Mariner. Seriously. Full BAB, D8 hitdie, nothing special skills wise, and no class features worth a damn. Oh wait, you can attack as a full round action and get +1d4 to damage, +2d4 at level 5. (afterwards you may as well get iteratives, because that's superior to the lame damage bonus).

Yes, really, that's all they get. At least Nobles can ask for favors.


I actually believe that the Spell to Power erudite is...:smallbiggrin: *cracks up* Sorry, I'm sorry, I couldn't finish that sentence with a straight face.

In my opinion, the hardest class to optimize is the paladin. (See word choice: hardest, not least optimizable). The paladin gets no class features after 6th level and his spell list is just so incredibly small (combined with only getting 4th level spells, many of which don't require saves, so there's little reason to optimize your Wisdom in order to get more bonus spells per day)

And while the Battle Blessing feat is nice, it's not exactly optimizing. (then again, most of my spell slots with paladin go towards rhino's rush, which is a swift action to cast anyway)

Harmonious Knight Substitution levels + Smite to Song + Devoted Performer + Initiate of Milil. Bardadin FTW! (no levels of bard required)

[sonofzeal]

I'm going to say Marshall, unless someone can come up with an effective Marshall build that doesn't boil down to "take as few levels of Marshall as possible."

Swashbuckler at least has Daring Outlaw, and Healer is definitely out - it's still a full caster.
Marshall is key to optimizing skillchecks, particularly for Cha-based skills. Now, think about what the three most exploitable skills in the game are. Chances are, whatever your personal opinions are, at least two of them and possibly all three are Cha-based (the ones that come to me are UMD, Diplomacy, and Handle Animal - all Cha-based).

The Marshall is best when mixed, you're right, but if we're talking about classes as discrete entities then my vote's on Marshall as best Diplomancer in the game. Heck, a half-decent Marshall could exploit the hell out of all three of those skills at the same time! Two of them are on their skill list, and the third only really needs numbers in the 20-ish range for max effectiveness.



Swashbuckler has, in addition to Daring Outlaw, the Seduction ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x). Marshall's still a better Diplomancer, but Swashbucker gets some unique tricks on that front that nobody else has access to, and that's something.



Healer though... I still don't see it. "Full Spellcaster" really doesn't count for much when your spell list is so monotonous. I've played a Healer, I enjoyed playing a Healer, and I think they're more effective than most people suspect... but when your entire spells-prepped list boils down to "Remove Status Affliction XYZ", and when there's no ACFs, or chooseable class features, or relevant feats.

None of the tricks that can help optimize the Healer are in any way unique to the class. There's simply not enough going on, and what IS going on is hard to optimize for. The only exploits I've seen (or used) are ones which many characters can access, often considerably more easily and more effectively, or depend on exploiting things that have nothing to do with the class. Even if a Healer/X/Y/Sovereign Speaker can be made to work, your power is coming from SS and not from Healer. Healer is reduced to a sub-optimal chassis from which to access the power of SS. And given that Healer is totally unsuitable for SS without multiple PrCs to gather up the class features to make it viable, I don't consider that optimizing Healer.

[docnessuno]

Monk
If you try to optimize it, you always end up with a different character with 2 monk levels (4 sometimes)

[Saph]

Healer though... I still don't see it. "Full Spellcaster" really doesn't count for much when your spell list is so monotonous.

There are ways to add spells to your spell list, though, and there are items powered by spell slots. It's really getting the spell slots that's the hard part (and the bit that shuts out most classes) - once you have them, then compensating for a bad spell list is much easier.

[sonofzeal]

Monk
If you try to optimize it, you always end up with a different character with 2 monk levels (4 sometimes)
There's a variant from DM that gives Wildshape. Yes, really. Yes, it's awesome.


There are ways to add spells to your spell list, though, and there are items powered by spell slots. It's really getting the spell slots that's the hard part (and the bit that shuts out most classes) - once you have them, then compensating for a bad spell list is much easier.
Can you give me an example that works for the Healer?

And, does that really count as "class-specific optimization"?

[Sception]

Vampire.

Oh, wait, 3e board, sorry.

CW Samurai. It just doesn't give you any options to work with, really.

[NeoSeraphi]

Harmonious Knight Substitution levels + Smite to Song + Devoted Performer + Initiate of Milil. Bardadin FTW! (no levels of bard required)

A bardadin? What does that mean, a paladin with bardic music? I mean, without bardic spellcasting, bards are kind of...bland.

[HunterOfJello]

I know this is going to get a lot of flak, but it's actually fairly hard to optimize a druid in terms of feats and PrCs to take, etc. The core chassis is so strong that optimizing is more a choice of picking from the already-available options, not in anything that you can add to it.

I think this may be true. I agree that, as strange as it sounds, druids are hard to go out and optimize by using PrCs, ACFs, and feat selections. I came across this while trying to make one.

You really only have a few options:
Planar Shephard Y/N?
Moonspeaker Y/N?
Half-Orc Racial Substitution Y/N?
Natural Spell Y/N?

All of the rest of the general options penalize the druid for leaving its base class as far as PrCs and racial substitutions go. Multiclassing is rare for a druid and are only hurting all of their other abilities. The only multiclassing option i can think of would be an early Monk 1 for the dodge bonus. Some feats obviously improve a druid's abilities a bit like Augment Summoning, but they don't create enough of a serious impact to even be called optimizing.

[sonofzeal]

CW Samurai. It just doesn't give you any options to work with, really.
Staredown can be an extremely powerful tool if pushed hard enough, as was thoroughly proven in ToS... and take a look at "Perform: Weapon Drill" in CW and compare it with the bonus feats Samurai gives you and then with "epic uses of perform" from ELH.

It's still a bad class, but it does give a couple options for the true optimizers.

[sonofzeal]

I think this may be true. I agree that, as strange as it sounds, druids are hard to go out and optimize by using PrCs, ACFs, and feat selections. I came across this while trying to make one.

You really only have a few options:
Planar Shephard Y/N?
Moonspeaker Y/N?
Half-Orc Racial Substitution Y/N?
Natural Spell Y/N?

All of the rest of the general options penalize the druid for leaving its base class as far as PrCs and racial substitutions go. Multiclassing is rare for a druid and are only hurting all of their other abilities. The only multiclassing option i can think of would be an early Monk 1 for the dodge bonus. Some feats obviously improve a druid's abilities a bit like Augment Summoning, but they don't create enough of a serious impact to even be called optimizing.
Wildling Clasps
Greenbound Summoning
Fleshraker + Venomfire

And on the other direction, I know many people whose first character concept was an Elven Druid. I also played with one for a few months who couldn't find a way to be effective to save his life - he'd wildshape into a Polar Bear, move up and attack, and then whatever it was would full-attack him straight into the negatives. Or he'd stand back, cast Call Lightning, and plink for nominal damage. I gave him the stats for pre-templated wildshape forms (Warbeast Polarbears specifically), and the DM let him keep his weapon enhancements on his animal's claws, but he still just dropped rapidly and repeatedly.

After seeing half a dozen new players attempt Druids and fail to make something effective, my opinion on the pre-optimized power of the class has... soured. It's still a great class with lots of potential in just about every area, but not the total gimmie everyone on this board seems to think it is.

[Saph]

Can you give me an example that works for the Healer?

The Raiment of the Four from the MiC is a good start. That gives you magic missile, fireball, freedom of movement, and teleport. Then there are Runestaffs and Knowstones, with a little help from UMD, plus the Extra Spell feat.

None of these are unique to the class, but having a big bunch of high-level spell slots gives you a lot of options.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Wildling Clasps
Greenbound Summoning
Fleshraker + Venomfire

And on the other direction, I know many people whose first character concept was an Elven Druid. I also played with one for a few months who couldn't find a way to be effective to save his life - he'd wildshape into a Polar Bear, move up and attack, and then whatever it was would full-attack him straight into the negatives. Or he'd stand back, cast Call Lightning, and plink for nominal damage. I gave him the stats for pre-templated wildshape forms (Warbeast Polarbears specifically), and the DM let him keep his weapon enhancements on his animal's claws, but he still just dropped rapidly and repeatedly.

After seeing half a dozen new players attempt Druids and fail to make something effective, my opinion on the pre-optimized power of the class has... soured. It's still a great class with lots of potential in just about every area, but not the total gimmie everyone on this board seems to think it is.

While an Elven Druid may not be ideal (a Con hit is rarely worth it) it doesn't have to be ineffective. Perhaps the issue was that he was playing the Druid at less than its full strength, rather than an issue with the power of the class itself. And, again, because a Druid can change forms with each time they use Wildshape (and can change spells each time they prepare them), it becomes a simple matter to choose better forms/spells/tactics.

[sonofzeal]

The Raiment of the Four from the MiC is a good start. That gives you magic missile, fireball, freedom of movement, and teleport. Then there are Runestaffs and Knowstones, with a little help from UMD, plus the Extra Spell feat.

None of these are unique to the class, but having a big bunch of high-level spell slots gives you a lot of options.
I never thought of UMDing Knowstones, but that's an excellent point, thanks! If I ever play a Healer again, I may use that.


While an Elven Druid may not be ideal (a Con hit is rarely worth it) it doesn't have to be ineffective. Perhaps the issue was that he was playing the Druid at less than its full strength, rather than an issue with the power of the class itself. And, again, because a Druid can change forms with each time they use Wildshape (and can change spells each time they prepare them), it becomes a simple matter to choose better forms/spells/tactics.
The primary issue was that he {a} had terrible Con (I suspect a +0 modifier), and {b} did not have Wildling Clasps. Both of those were significant build problems that could not be remedied easily, especially since we didn't have MIC at the time and suitable markets were exceedingly rare in that campaign anyway. Nothing he could do on form choices would make him survivable in melee.

If I'd taken over his character, I might have been able to be slightly more effective - possibly Dire Hawk form as a mainstay, and rely on my spells and summons rather than risk melee. I'd have fallen back to buffing allies and working the Battlefield Control, and been decent at it. But the difference in power between me and an optimized Druid dumping Greenbound summons while their Fleshraker AC charges with Venomfire and who has their best Periapt of Wisdom and assorted defensive items with Wildling Clasps? Yeah, not even in the same league. An optimized Druid could completely outperform good ol' Snowy in every single way, and change from a mediocre support/BC character to the force of nature that a Druid is supposed to be.

[Eldariel]

The primary issue was that he {a} had terrible Con (I suspect a +0 modifier), and {b} did not have Wildling Clasps. Both of those were significant build problems that could not be remedied easily, especially since we didn't have MIC at the time and suitable markets were exceedingly rare in that campaign anyway. Nothing he could do on form choices would make him survivable in melee.

He could've still used +1 Wild Dragonscale Fullplate and +1 Wild Heavy Wooden Shield (talking about 21k and 18k here) for ~+12 AC to gain some survivability in melee; though I assume nobody in the party had Craft Magic Arms & Armor? And of course, any amount of AC isn't enough when you have no HP.

[sonofzeal]

He could've still used +1 Wild Dragonscale Fullplate and +1 Wild Heavy Wooden Shield (talking about 21k and 18k here) for ~+12 AC to gain some survivability in melee; though I assume nobody in the party had Craft Magic Arms & Armor? And of course, any amount of AC isn't enough when you have no HP.
Yeah, nobody could craft. And there's no way he could have spared 39k even if he wanted to, that's a ridiculous sum of money at most levels. Also I think dragons were considered extinct in the campaign setting, so no Dragonscale anyway. Assuming gear choices count as part of the "build" since they're non-trivial to change more often than not, the guy was seriously nerfed compared to a properly built Druid, even with the help and support we tried to give him. All sorts of advice, favourable houserules, etc... but he still really struggled.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, nobody could craft. And there's no way he could have spared 39k even if he wanted to, that's a ridiculous sum of money at most levels.

Well, it's the first 20k that's the important part (Wild Fullplate is the vast majority of that); about the same as the first big item in general. Though Wild Hide Armor would already help a ton; it's only +5 Armor but it's still +5 free Armor.

[kulosle]

A bardadin? What does that mean, a paladin with bardic music? I mean, without bardic spellcasting, bards are kind of...bland.

one level of prestigious divine bard if your DM is cool with that makes it awesome. optimize IC and you are a bad ass (ish).


The Raiment of the Four from the MiC is a good start. That gives you magic missile, fireball, freedom of movement, and teleport. Then there are Runestaffs and Knowstones, with a little help from UMD, plus the Extra Spell feat.

None of these are unique to the class, but having a big bunch of high-level spell slots gives you a lot of options.

so anything anyone with UMD can do. and thats just to make them playable.

[Curmudgeon]

Then there are Runestaffs and Knowstones, with a little help from UMD, plus the Extra Spell feat.
How are Knowstones going to help a Healer? They only work when you've got spell slots to cast from normally, and Healers prepare their spells and then later cast from the prepared spells; they don't use spell slots to cast from directly. From Dragon # 333 on page 93:
Activation: A knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then use his spell slots to cast normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells). Also, Healers don't know any spells, even the ones they've meditated/prayed for; the spells are just there temporarily and gone the next day.

[Snowbluff]

It almost becomes a competition of who can make the worst build.

Gogo Sorceror with an intelligent Axe that he never uses, dual wield nunchucks, and only Flare as his spells

Dude, you get like a -16 to hit with them them!
*rolls 20s*

[Jopustopin]

Complete Warrior Samurai.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9653.0

[Sith_Happens]

My question, to paraphrase GoodbyeSoberDay, is:

What class has the smallest difference between practical optimization floor and ceiling, barring tricks that you could do with any other class?

You should probably edit the OP to include this then.

[Tokiko Mima]

I'm going to second Soulborn as well. There's so very little you can do with them, and they are locked out of a lot of the awesome incarnum options. In the end, it balances out below Paladin in everything with clearly less useful class features. The only optimization you get is stuff you can do with *any* melee character, like ubercharger or tripmonkey feat trees.

[Triskavanski]

Dragonfire Adept - The reason being is that nearly no feat really works for your abilities, being dragon blooded doesn't really help you cause you don't cast arcane spells, and magic items don't really increase your breath weapon.


For me, When I made a healer, I also went battle healer. Then I took Non-combatant (cause I was just that..) then took a number of reserved feats for healing, amongst other such things. I was optimized to heal, and I did it well.

Awesome things I did.. Stone to flesh - Who needs to break down stone walls, when you can cut through a lump of flesh instead.

[candycorn]

Dragonfire Adept - The reason being is that nearly no feat really works for your abilities, being dragon blooded doesn't really help you cause you don't cast arcane spells, and magic items don't really increase your breath weapon.


For me, When I made a healer, I also went battle healer. Then I took Non-combatant (cause I was just that..) then took a number of reserved feats for healing, amongst other such things. I was optimized to heal, and I did it well.

Awesome things I did.. Stone to flesh - Who needs to break down stone walls, when you can cut through a lump of flesh instead.

Entangling Exhalation? Metabreath feats?

[Coidzor]

Also, Healers don't know any spells, even the ones they've meditated/prayed for; the spells are just there temporarily and gone the next day.

Well, I imagine you'll find yourself in the distinct minority as far as that decision goes, so that'd go a long way to explaining why someone would list those items.

Most groups whose members I've interacted with wouldn't even stop to consider that at all or derive it from reading over the rules text.


I'm going to second Soulborn as well. There's so very little you can do with them, and they are locked out of a lot of the awesome incarnum options. In the end, it balances out below Paladin in everything with clearly less useful class features. The only optimization you get is stuff you can do with *any* melee character, like ubercharger or tripmonkey feat trees.

Indeed, when the PO floor of the class can be done better with a commoner using his feats from leveling up, you've got a fairly lackluster class. The question then becomes what the PO ceiling is.

Or possibly I've gotten the floor and the ceiling mixed up, in which case the question becomes what the PO floor of building a soulborn competently would be.

Of course, part of the problem with the question itself is defining what the floor of building something competently actually is.


A single level of Holt Warden can fix the lack of domain slots without any problem.

How so? I just looked over the class and it seemed to only work with the one domain.

[Emmerask]

So we are practically looking for an
1)good out of the box character (else you can optimize it pretty easily to twice or more the effectiveness)
2)few or no abilities that get much better with feat choice or prcs
3)if the character has spells it must have access to all of them

So I think the best bet would be a divine spellcaster without turn undead.

Druid would fit that bill but they have some great options like natural spell or planar shepherd so they are pretty much out.

Maybe Favored Soul? Don´t have the books atm but I think they have no turn undead?
Healer seems also a very strong contender.
Or we could go into really obscure books like starmagic etc ^^



I'm going to second Soulborn as well. There's so very little you can do with them, and they are locked out of a lot of the awesome incarnum options. In the end, it balances out below Paladin in everything with clearly less useful class features. The only optimization you get is stuff you can do with *any* melee character, like ubercharger or tripmonkey feat trees.

Though this is quite a lot of optimization.
You go from someone who can deal maybe 30dmg a round to someone who practically instant kills anyone he can hit... quite a huge leap in power due to optimization :smallwink:

It doesn´t matter if the resulting character is very powerful in comparison to t1 characters, the only thing that matters is how much more powerful or good at what the character is supposed to do he becomes when optimized vs none optimized.

[Coidzor]

So we are practically looking for an
1)good out of the box character (else you can optimize it pretty easily to twice or more the effectiveness)
2)few or no abilities that get much better with feat choice or prcs
3)if the character has spells it must have access to all of them

So I think the best bet would be a divine spellcaster without turn undead.

Druid would fit that bill but they have some great options like natural spell or planar shepherd so they are pretty much out.

Maybe Favored Soul? Don´t have the books atm but I think they have no turn undead?
Healer seems also a very strong contender.
Or we could go into really obscure books like starmagic etc ^^

A particular flavor of Shugenja? Spirit Shaman, the redheaded stepchild of the Druid?

Have to admit, Healer seems to outclass them in the same way Truenamer outclasses everything in terms of making people lose the ability to taste ice cream.

[Emmerask]

Hm, Spirit Shaman sounds promising :smallbiggrin:

They are rather good at what they do, and I don´t think that they become that much more powerful with optimization.

[flumphy]

So I think the best bet would be a divine spellcaster without turn undead.

Druid would fit that bill but they have some great options like natural spell or planar shepherd so they are pretty much out.

Maybe Favored Soul? Don´t have the books atm but I think they have no turn undead?
Healer seems also a very strong contender.
Or we could go into really obscure books like starmagic etc ^^



Except with Spirit Shaman, you actually can take advantage of some of the many prestige classes intended for druids that just aren't worth it for druids. No, you won't get a huge amount of improvement, but there are still options there.

Likewise, Favored Soul can take advantage of cleric options. The can even get turn attempts without too much hassle.

The only caster I would consider for this question is probably, yes, the Healer. I still think a melee class may be more appropriate, though, as there really aren't that many class-specific melee tricks.

[Emmerask]

I would say the best way to determine how optimizable a class is would be to pit the unoptimized version against an optimized one (in a good sample size of battles 1000 or so). While this does omit none combat encounter optimization d&d is first and foremost a combat system so we do not lose that much I think.

I don´t think an unoptimized fighter will win even one round against an optimized fighter, while an optimized druid might lose a round or two against an unoptimized druid for example.


This would be the quality of optimization approach ie how much power can be gained via optimization.

The other would be the quantity of optimization ie how many different ways of optimization are there.

I can´t say what the op originally wanted though ^^

[Mooncrow]

How so? I just looked over the class and it seemed to only work with the one domain.

Well, I admit the wording is vague enough that you could interpret it that way; however, I think it makes more sense the other way. (I also know for fact it was the RAI, but since all I have to back that up is an unrecorded conversation I had with one of the authors, I can't insist on that as evidence :p)

The wording is "If you do not already have bonus domain spells, you now gain bonus spells from the Plant domain as if you were a cleric with access to that domain"

So, you start off in a position mechanically as if you were a cleric with only the Plant domain. What would happen to said cleric if they added a new domain? Right - now they have two domains to choose from to put the spells in, etc.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, I imagine you'll find yourself in the distinct minority as far as that decision goes, so that'd go a long way to explaining why someone would list those items.

Most groups whose members I've interacted with wouldn't even stop to consider that at all or derive it from reading over the rules text.
Perhaps your sample of "most groups" is limited. Spellcasters who know their spells have that clearly stated with either a Spells Known class entry (example: Sorcerer), or a stated mechanism for how they learn their spells (example: Wizard). Other classes rely on their deity/the universe to supply spells as needed without every having to learn them (at the character level), or keep a record of them (at the player level).

[Triskavanski]

Entangling Exhalation? Metabreath feats?

That's why I said nearly no feats. Though unless the metabreath feat is related to the exhalation feats, i don't know what those are.

But equipment you are out of luck.

[Axier]

For Dragonfire Adept can be optimized as a sort of Bard esque knowledge bank, due to Draconic Knowledge, but more importantly, you can't make Bardic Knowledge checks with Knowledge Devotion, making it even better for that. They also get an Identify/detect magic, 24 hour invisibility, 24 hour humanoid shape, and Baleful Geas is kinda funny to kill people with.

For healer, your right, they are a one trick pony, but they can stand surrounded by zombies, and nuke them for tons of restoration on top of healing allies, without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also are great options for heavy Vows. I have a level 2 healer that has an unarmored AC of 21 and arrows and thrown weapons break on his skin. Sure, the party gets negs to hit after they kill something, but they get over it when I can basically tell the DM that the damage he just delt out was healed and then some, by one spell. Removing the vow of poverty, however, they make excellent scroll makers and wand crafters, and can support the party so well.

As for soulknife, they do only do one thing, but they can have so many feats that fire off just loosing their psyonic focus, dealing mad damage, and can convert some of the damage to deal ability damage.

When it comes down to it, the only real PC centric class that does almost nothing is Truenamer, because almost everything else can do at least one thing well, and Truenaming was just absolutely butchered in concept, and takes way too long to become playable.

[Tyndmyr]

However, I will also mention Truenamer, because there is only one way to play it: 20 levels of Truenamer and optimize your Truespeak check. There are no prestige classes. You cannot reasonably gish, although Truenamer/Factotum might "work". There really isn't much else noteworthy with their abilities or skill list. The only major difference between one Truenamer and another is how high their Truespeak bonus is, which simply determines what they can do.

Truenamer Gishes exist, though I admit I don't see the point myself. That said, while truenamer optimization IS fairly linear, it does have a notable effect on the class.

[NeoSeraphi]

Entangling Exhalation? Metabreath feats?

Dragonfire adepts don't qualify for Metabreath feats unless you take the feat Power Surge from Dragon #313, and Dragon material is commonly banned.

[kulosle]

For healer, your right, they are a one trick pony, but they can stand surrounded by zombies, and nuke them for tons of restoration on top of healing allies, without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also are great options for heavy Vows. I have a level 2 healer that has an unarmored AC of 21 and arrows and thrown weapons break on his skin. Sure, the party gets negs to hit after they kill something, but they get over it when I can basically tell the DM that the damage he just delt out was healed and then some, by one spell. Removing the vow of poverty, however, they make excellent scroll makers and wand crafters, and can support the party so well.

but this is just them doing there job. they don't get much better at it from optimizing. and saying they are awesome against undead is like saying it's worth it to play a gnome giant slayer. i will admit that they can abuse vows, but most everyone can. just because the healer as less to lose from taking vows, like monks, doesn't mean they're good. 3.0 had a class called forsaker that couldn't use magic items and would totally abuse vows, but once your party started to realize that they weren't getting as much WBL because you keep breaking all the magic items your are pretty much lost the campaign.

i kind of agree with marshal actually, no matter how much i love them. he can't be optimized himself, the class just lets you optimize other builds.

also spirit shamans get next to nothing from the classes intended for druid. some are barely better than just taking straight 20 spirit shaman. but they do have a nice network of spells to choose from.

i might actually, against my better judgment, say factotum. mainly because they have nothing that works with them. an optomized factotum is the one who took the most fount of inspiration. they benefit mildly from level dips into cloistered cleric or chameleon, but no more so than anyone else does. factotum is mainly just a good 3 or 8 level dip for other builds. the only way i could see there being an arguement for them being optimized is if you took them all the way to 19 and found some crazy combinations you can do with class features. otherwise my 8 level dip will suffice for breaking the action economy.

[sonofzeal]

For healer, your right, they are a one trick pony, but they can stand surrounded by zombies, and nuke them for tons of restoration on top of healing allies, without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also are great options for heavy Vows. I have a level 2 healer that has an unarmored AC of 21 and arrows and thrown weapons break on his skin. Sure, the party gets negs to hit after they kill something, but they get over it when I can basically tell the DM that the damage he just delt out was healed and then some, by one spell. Removing the vow of poverty, however, they make excellent scroll makers and wand crafters, and can support the party so well.
Having played a Healer with heavy Vows....


- Even with Healer boosts, using "Cure" spells as damage vs undead is usually suboptimal. The damage is usually lower than what a proper attack spell can put out, and almost all require a melee touch attack AND a Will Save. A Warmage has more offensive capability against undead than a Healer does.

- VoNV/VoPeace only give penalties to allies for killing incapacitated enemies. That rarely comes up in most games I play, we don't usually bother with enemies stabilizing and bleeding out. Other groups may differ, but it's still a low-frequency event.

- Your calm emotions aura is your most potent weapon (with that tasty +4 DC), but THAT may frustrate your allies. Use with caution.

- All that said... your power is coming from your Vows which anyone can take, and not from the Healer class. Nothing Healer gives you helps you tank, a Rogue with the same feats would be just as durable.

[JaronK]

Optimizing a Healer is just a matter of getting other spells onto their list. Once you've done that, they're optimized.

JaronK

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

The Dragonlance Mariner. Seriously. Full BAB, D8 hitdie, nothing special skills wise, and no class features worth a damn. Oh wait, you can attack as a full round action and get +1d4 to damage, +2d4 at level 5. (afterwards you may as well get iteratives, because that's superior to the lame damage bonus).

Yes, really, that's all they get. At least Nobles can ask for favors.Closest to /thread. Except that full BAB

Noble is the right answer, ding ding di

[gkathellar]

Druid. Most of the build choices for a druid are really obvious, to the point where if they're allowed, you're simply going to take them — end of story.

[Urpriest]

Didn't read the last few pages, but Dragon Shaman. A lot of tiny little bonuses, 3/4 BAB so normal charger tricks don't work, and a breath weapon with unimpressive damage that you have to wait between uses. You can get metabreath feats, but that just makes you wait longer.

[nedz]

There are quite a few options for healer.

Summoning Healer
Extra Spell (SNA) -> Spontaneous Summoner

Twisted Healer
Extra Spell (Inflict Light Wounds) -> Spontaneous Wounder
(Actually this doesn't work, Healers have to be good apparently)

Only Wis mod times per day, but it is your prime stat.

Mother Cyst would twist the Healer nicely though.

And several more I'm sure.

Ed: My vote is for Dragon Shamen. I once spent a whole week trying to come up with ideas for that class. The best I could get was a Tracker or Intimidator.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Druid. Most of the build choices for a druid are really obvious, to the point where if they're allowed, you're simply going to take them — end of story.

All druids are equal because it's so obvious that you should always be in Wild Shape and get lots of Wilding Clasps and take a warbeast fleshraker companion!

I sense a flaw in your logic...

[NeoSeraphi]

All druids are equal because it's so obvious that you should always be in Wild Shape and get lots of Wilding Clasps and take a warbeast fleshraker companion!

I sense a flaw in your logic...

You forgot summoning bears with one paw, healing your party with the other, and dropping lightning bolts with your eyes.

[sonofzeal]

Summoning Healer
Extra Spell (SNA) -> Spontaneous Summoner
FAQ (not RAW but still relevant) denies this works.


FAQ
Can the warmage (Complete Arcane) benefit from the Extra Spell feat?

No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list. Since the warmage already knows all the spells on his class spell list, this feat has no effect.

That aside, classes can't learn spells not on their class spell list, and the Extra Spell feat does not have a clause exempting it from that. The closest it comes is implying that Wizards can use it to pick up spells from banned schools.

[Ernir]

Has anyone mentioned the Eidolon from Ghostwalk? You just take the few [Ghost] feats from that book, and... that's pretty much what the class does.