There Are Now 7 Billion People On Earth.

[Maralais]

Not 5, nor 6. Bloody seven. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-10-30/world-population-hits-seven-billion/51007670/1)

I, for one, am quite concerned by this. Aside from the evolutionary(and perhaps Malthusian) aspect of exhausting natural sources, I believe too much people will also turn education into a competition, thus eradicating the chance to contribute of many, as they will be just replaced by better ones.

[Ravens_cry]

Oh you apelings.
"Be fruitful and multiply all over the face of the Earth", eh?
Well, you've done it all right.

[thubby]

there were 6.9 billion the day before and nothing exploded. no real reason to worry more

[Eldan]

Just because it was inevitable and we saw it coming fifty years ago doesn't mean it's any less intimidating. What's our footprint now, 2.4 Earths? Or are we closer to 3 yet? I haven't checked it in a while.

[pendell]

The fundamental postulate underlying the comments above seems to be that the earth cannot support much more than 7 billion human beings. I remember reading back in the 1980s that the planet couldn't support more than 1 billion human being sustainably. We've had many times that for 30 years, and such people who are starving in places like Africa aren't doing so because of Malthusian pressure, but because of war, famine, and disease et al -- societal breakdown which has been happening since the dawn of time.

What if it turns out the earth can comfortably support 30 billion human beings? or 50?

At any rate ... the human species is not going to stop growing regardless of what policies, draconian or otherwise, we put in place to stop it. The solution, therefore, is more resources. Either acquiring new resources (expanding to the oceans, to the polar caps, and to space) or inventing new ones (back in the 1890s, no one considered oil or uranium to be of much value. Now they're critical chemicals. And 'silicon valley' has made fortunes out of , well, sand).

So I say let's stop mourning over the fact that more people have been born. Most of those, absent birth defects, has a functioning brain and the chance of being the next Mozart, the next Einstein, the next Stephen Hawking. Let's leverage the intellectual and labor capital that all those human beings give us, not complain that we have an excess of wealth.

Yes, the planet is getting more crowded. And that is a problem to be solved, not a funeral or a death sentence. A problem that has a better chance to be solved, now that we have the additional minds and bodies to put to work on it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[H Birchgrove]

At worst, we can always make farm land out of the Mediterranean Sea and a big fresh water reservoir of the Baltic Sea. The latter will turn into a desert in about a few millenia anyway, and the Baltic has been closed before. Yeah, I like pickled herring as much as the next guy, but priorities and all that.

I am worried over future lack of phosphate though. Especially since we need more, not less, intensive farming.

[Lord Raziere]

Yes, its is problem, but its just another one that science, progress and the human ingenuity must solve. and from modern times far into our future it is always going to be one of our biggest problems. We will just have to deal with it and hope that the growth starts going flat and constant, or that we can somehow get people to Mars soon.

[paddyfool]

It's an interesting time. The world has had a few decades of really fast population growth (about 75 million people per year since 1970), and is only just looking like slowing down. The rate at which it slows down may not be as fast as previously predicted, since the rate at which the fertility rate (the number of children per woman) is falling towards replacement level (about 2.1 or 2.2) is also slowing down. (http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&idim=country:GBR&dl=en&hl=en&q=fertility+rate#ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&ifdim=country&tdim=true&hl=en&dl=en)

And the situation really isn't as simple as "the world is having too many babies". Some countries are; others are having too few, leaving them in a situation where there may be too few people to care for the elderly as they age (Japan being the clearest example).

I rather like these (http://www.economist.com/node/21533409)two (http://www.economist.com/node/21533364) articles in the economist on the broader implications of current trends, by the way.

Incidentally, if you want to do something to help the countries currently having lots of babies to have fewer, you could support one or more of the following:

Family planning programmes (something like 200 million women want access to family planning but don't have it)
Women's education (all over the world, more educated women have less children)
Gay rights (I'm less sure that this'll make much of a difference, but generally speaking, closeted gays are more likely to end up having kids than gays who've come out).

[Maralais]

I am not sad because new Mozarts and Einsteins are born, I am sad that their overall value will be less compared to a case where less of them were born. They will have to fight harder to earn a living, to be of significance than they would have to if the population was lower. Yes, the chance of a new Einstein coming does increase, yet we will be throwing slightly-above average people to pits of a hard life.

[Ravens_cry]

They may not be as unique, but having more smart people thinking up innovative and ground-breaking ideas hardly strikes this one as not a good thing.

[Traab]

I am not sad because new Mozarts and Einsteins are born, I am sad that their overall value will be less compared to a case where less of them were born. They will have to fight harder to earn a living, to be of significance than they would have to if the population was lower. Yes, the chance of a new Einstein coming does increase, yet we will be throwing slightly-above average people to pits of a hard life.

If we get enough einstiens and near einstiens together we might figure out a way to spread out a bit and make sure things change to a sustainable level. For example, find a way to produce energy that doesnt deplete natural resources. Find ways to compact farmland needed, as an off the cuff example that may or may not make sense, work, or already exist, skyscraper style greenhouses. 100 stories tall of farmland after farmland.

[Mauve Shirt]

See, as soon as the 7 billionth baby was born, another person died, so we're still ok.

[Emperor Ing]

The sheer fact that we are able to support 7 billion people on 1 planet is a spectacular testimonial to how far technology in many forms has come. I mean just a hundred years ago, having 7 billion people on the planet would have been unfathomable!

[Gorgondantess]

Personally, I am of the opinion that there is, essentially, a static number of true geniuses the world over; that is, whether there are ten million human beings on earth or ten billion, the number of "Einsteins and Beethovens" will remain the same.
Nevertheless, as above posters have stated, not too long ago it was said by highly accredited individuals that the human population exceeding one billion would result in mass starvations. We are nowhere close to this state. Not only are we not starving, but many are thriving. There is an ever growing cap on the human population, and we are always striving to fill it. I believe that when push comes to shove- when there truly isn't enough food to go around- the population will, more or less, stabilize. It won't be pretty, for sure, but in the meantime I think we should just stop worrying and simply let things progress as they may.

[Ravens_cry]

@Traab:
Don't forget thermodynamics.
After all, those plants got to get light to make the food and so you either have natural light, which means you only really have one layer, or you are spending the energy elsewhere with artificial lighting.
And it is a lot of energy, photosynthesis is only about 1% efficient at converting light into food if I remember rightly.
To give an idea how much, one way cops bust hydroponic indoor grow-ops is by the huge amount of energy they consume.
There is also the energy costs of pumping water up the "floors" and the material for constructing these food-towers. I am not saying it is a exactly a bad idea, but it would work better on, say, the moon , where radiation protection for long term stay means the bases are likely to be buried under piles of regolith, so artificial lighting hydroponics is the way to go anyway.

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

They say that in China a woman gives birth every 16 seconds. If we can find that woman and convince her to stop, we'll be okay! :smallwink:

[Haruki-kun]

7 billion totally awesome people. We're fine, don't worry about it. :smallwink:

Also the UN says we'll likely level out at 10 billion people. (http://www.npr.org/2011/10/31/141816460/visualizing-how-a-population-grows-to-7-billion)

[Ravens_cry]

They say that in China a woman gives birth every 16 seconds. If we can find that woman and convince her to stop, we'll be okay! :smallwink:
While we are at it, get the one person who gets injured in an alcohol related incident every two minutes into detox.:smalltongue:

[Fredaintdead]

*prepares for the Anti-Spirals to appear*
Man the giant drill-robots and prepare for galactic war!

In all seriousness, I don't know if this is just me, but I'm not too worried about this. The population of the world has always been growing exponentially, and we've always coped with it. Yes it will probably lead to food problems in the future, but other than a mass culling of the human race, there's no way to reduce the human race really, and I for one am not all that into mass murder.
Besides, technology is also growing exponentially, so hopefully technology will continue to adapt to solve any problems population might cause.

[paddyfool]

One thing that might amuse you:


Each second, there are an average of 4.3 births and 1.8 deaths. (http://www.census.gov/population/international/data/idb/worldvitalevents.php)
Round those figures up, and you get 4/second and 2/second.
Watch a clock which tracks seconds, such as this one (http://onlineclock.net/).
Tap your left hand twice per second. On average, people are dying around the world at that speed.
Tap your right hand four times per second. On average, people are being born around the world at that speed.
Enjoy your sense of perspective, and illusion of power.

[Asta Kask]

One thing that might amuse you:


Each second, there are an average of 4.3 births and 1.8 deaths. (http://www.census.gov/population/international/data/idb/worldvitalevents.php)
Round those figures up, and you get 4/second and 2/second.


Shouldn't that be 5/second and 2/second?

[grimbold]

Shouldn't that be 5/second and 2/second?

thats what i thought as well...

[Starwulf]

thats what i thought as well...

Uhh, since when does 4.3 round up to 5? .5 and up, you round to the next number. Below, and you round down. So for it to be 5, it would have to be 4.5 and up.

[Ravens_cry]

Rounded conventionally, round down at 4 and below, round up at 5 and above, paddyfool is right.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

However, paddyfool specifically said rounded up, so all values should be rounded to the next highest whole number.

[Asta Kask]

Uhh, since when does 4.3 round up to 5? .5 and up, you round to the next number. Below, and you round down. So for it to be 5, it would have to be 4.5 and up.

No, that's when you just 'round'. When you round up, everything above x becomes x+1.

[Mixt]

And while our numbers continue to grow, the rest of the world's species are being subjected to habitat destruction, overhunting, poaching, pollution, killing for the lulz, and so on.

Then there's the whole cutting down the rainforests deal, and all the other crap going on that is just plain asking for a manmade mass-extinction event.

Yeah...genocide genocide, it's what man does best...
And most people don't even give a damn :smallannoyed:

{Scrubbed}

I'm gonna go sulk in a corner now...bad week...really bad week...my damn arm hurts...and the news are as depressing as ever...

[THAC0]

Too many people.

But I'm incredibly antisocial and can feel over-crowded if there are more than three other people within fifteen miles of me.

[paddyfool]

Shouldn't that be 5/second and 2/second?

Sorry, round, not round up. (Some of my old maths teachers actually had this wrong, and the rather nonsensical use of "rounding up" for "rounding" is still in my default vocabulary).

[Dr.Epic]

7 billion? That's nothing compared to all the various species of insect life. What about their natural resources and education, huh?:smallwink:

[HalfDragonCube]

I have a plan to fix this. Point me towards those that are most delicious. :smalltongue:

[Asta Kask]

Crayfish. Lobster. Shrimps.

[ShadowySilence]

Hopefully one day we can break out of our cage (no matter how nice of a cage it is, it is still a cage) and spread out a little in the galaxy (of course it will take considerable strides in space exploration, power generation, and terraforming), but until then I think we can manage quite nicely. We humans are a persistent bunch, we'll figure out something! :smallbiggrin:

Now if we can just keep our cool, not do anything too crazy, and keep our Earth healthy we should be fine.

"All human situations have their inconveniences. We feel those of the present but neither see nor feel those of the future; and hence we often make troublesome changes without amendment, and frequently for the worse."

- Benjamin Franklin

"When the well's dry, we know the worth of water."

- Benjamin Franklin

[Pie Guy]

In before Jonathan Swift? (http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html)

[Dr.Epic]

Hopefully one day we can break out of our cage (no matter how nice of a cage it is, it is still a cage) and spread out a little in the galaxy (of course it will take considerable strides in space exploration, power generation, and terraforming), but until then I think we can manage quite nicely. We humans are a persistent bunch, we'll figure out something! :smallbiggrin:

But we have to keep the spiral nemesis down.:smallwink:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

In before Jonathan Swift? (http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html)

Best essay ever.

[Dr.Epic]

Best essay ever.

Better than To Serve Man?:smallwink:

[Tragic_Comedian]

Sometimes, I am worried by it. But typically I remember that I'm bound to die before things get too bad, and I am comforted.

[enderlord99]

I have a plan to fix this. Point me towards those that are most delicious. :smalltongue:

*hands mirror to HalfDragonCube*

:smalltongue:

[Dr.Epic]

Sometimes, I am worried by it. But typically I remember that I'm bound to die before things get too bad, and I am comforted.

Yep. Always remember, the next generation can fix it. What's the flaw in that logic? Wait...:smallconfused:...oh yeah.:smalleek:

[Tragic_Comedian]

Yep. Always remember, the next generation can fix it. What's the flaw in that logic? Wait...:smallconfused:...oh yeah.:smalleek:
I'm not worried about the next generation fixing it. I'm worried about getting out while the getting's good.

Of course, I'm confident in this generation's ability to handle its problems, and I hope to pitch in. But there's my backup.

[Dr.Epic]

I'm not worried about the next generation fixing it. I'm worried about getting out while the getting's good.

Of course, I'm confident in this generation's ability to handle its problems, and I hope to pitch in. But there's my backup.

And hey, maybe the end of the world won't be so bad. We could even get us on of them post-apocalyptic societies. I hope it turns out like Adventure Time though. There's a doomsday world I'd be fine with living in.:smallwink:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Y'know, I'm pissed of enough at the generation that's just assuming that my generation will fix everything. I mean, your generation messed it up, the least you could do is help fix things, rather than just going "ooops, I'm old now, gonna retire on the last pension plan in the world, and let my kids do all the work, and also support my lazy ass".

[enderlord99]

Hopefully one day we can break out of our cage (no matter how nice of a cage it is, it is still a cage) and spread out a little in the galaxy (of course it will take considerable strides in space exploration, power generation, and terraforming), but until then I think we can manage quite nicely. We humans are a persistent bunch, we'll figure out something! :smallbiggrin:

Now if we can just keep our cool, not do anything too crazy, and keep our Earth healthy we should be fine.

"All human situations have their inconveniences. We feel those of the present but neither see nor feel those of the future; and hence we often make troublesome changes without amendment, and frequently for the worse."

- Benjamin Franklin

"When the well's dry, we know the worth of water."

- Benjamin Franklin


Yo dawg, I heard you like quotes from Benjamin Franklin...

[paddyfool]

Y'know, I'm pissed of enough at the generation that's just assuming that my generation will fix everything. I mean, your generation messed it up, the least you could do is help fix things, rather than just going "ooops, I'm old now, gonna retire on the last pension plan in the world, and let my kids do all the work, and also support my lazy ass".

Every generation gets left some kind of mess by the one before...

"They f*** you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were f***ed up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself."

:smallwink:

[Mercenary Pen]

While we are at it, get the one person who gets injured in an alcohol related incident every two minutes into detox.:smalltongue:

Yeah, we'd better find the maniac with the bottle and see if we can convince them to stop beating the stuffing out of rehab patients...

[Pokonic]

Personaly, I am so going into the secret underground vaults with a few years worth of supplies at the first by the time we start having resource wars. I know how things like this go down: we ether go invade some planet full of blue cat people or we go into full-sized riots that dismatle goverments.


Then again, I dont remember the last time I played fallout, so perhapes going into the underground bunkers to survive may not be the best of plans.

[H Birchgrove]

What Is The Secret Of Soylent Green? (http://youtu.be/SVpN312hYgU)

[enderlord99]

What Is The Secret Of Soylent Green? (http://youtu.be/SVpN312hYgU)

I think Half-Dragon Cube already answered that...

[H Birchgrove]

Crayfish. Lobster. Shrimps.

But not giant tiger prawn. It's evil to eat those.


I think Half-Dragon Cube already answered that...

But I had a link... :smalltongue:

[grimbold]

In before Jonathan Swift? (http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html)

ahh mah gaad
made my day
I wasn't even thinking of this :smallbiggrin:

[pendell]

I'm curious. Imagine that the people of the world have appointed you to be the one to solve the world's population problem. How do you do it?

My answer is to develop space technologies and start moving out into space. We occupy one planet of one solar system, and there are millions of galaxies out there. Not enough room? Tosh!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rising Phoenix]

Y'know, I'm pissed of enough at the generation that's just assuming that my generation will fix everything. I mean, your generation messed it up, the least you could do is help fix things, rather than just going "ooops, I'm old now, gonna retire on the last pension plan in the world, and let my kids do all the work, and also support my lazy ass".

Amen to that! Some won't even acknowledge it. :smallfurious:


Every generation gets left some kind of mess by the one before...

"They f*** you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were f***ed up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself."

:smallwink:

Partly true. I can understand why the last generation, starved and deprived from two wars just went out all greedy... why wouldn't you? The fact is that the earth was in a much better state 100 years back. Now? It's not that great.


Unfortunately the 'green' voices back then weren't heard. They are being heard more today, but governments are still tentative.

As a biologist I get fed news on the status of the planet on a daily basis and it's not good. At least the generation entering adulthood seems keen on 'fixing' things.

[polity4life]

I'm curious. Imagine that the people of the world have appointed you to be the one to solve the world's population problem. How do you do it?

My answer is to develop space technologies and start moving out into space. We occupy one planet of one solar system, and there are millions of galaxies out there. Not enough room? Tosh!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Oddly enough, I think we, as a race, need to consider draconian activities.

I would immediately enact population control measures to stabilize growth in such a way that 7 billion is a sustainable number. Next, pool together the talent required to provide for those 7 billion in such a manner that the fewest possible starve to death, die from exposure, or die from dehydration. This will be a mammoth undertaking that, in my opinion, would rival nearly all major technological and social advancements ever recorded in terms of scope and importance. This would require changes in the most fundamental components of civilized life, including but not limited to:

Monetary policy reform at national and international levels
International policy reform in regards to human rights and war
Completely new model for national and international commerce that promotes sustainability over growth

Once the population is as stable and provisioned as humanly possible, proceed to move towards other resources nodes in the solar system. Once the technology has reached a point where harvesting is feasible, even if heavy subsidy is required, ease on population control measures to allow growth.

Of course, doing the monstrous step 1 would likely span beyond my lifetime. This would require a certain degree of continuity that may not be easily attained through the democratic method, though I would have it no other way.

[Traab]

The problem with colonizing other worlds is finding a way to make those worlds at least mostly self sufficient. otherwise, if we have to constantly ship out food water, energy, whatever to the other planets as well, all we did was remove all space constraints from our never ending population expansion and increase the burden further. Although, on the other hand, if we got good enough at expanding to other worlds, we could remove 75% of the population from earth, put them elsewhere, and turn all of earth into farming/energy production. I bet if we turned 50% of the earths surface area into useable farmland, and the other 50% into energy production, everything from solar, to hydro, to nuclear, we could actually sustain a far greater total population. Adjust ratio of farmland to energy production to fit whatever is needed. Earth is basically turned into a big warehouse to create and ship out supplies to our outlying colonies. The remaining 25% population on earth is dedicated to harvesting food or energy.

[DeadManSleeping]

From what I understand, the issue is that economically underprivileged people have more than 2 kids per couple, because there is almost always incentive for them to do that. We just need to find a way to disincentivize that, and we're good to go.

[pendell]

The problem with colonizing other worlds is finding a way to make those worlds at least mostly self sufficient. otherwise, if we have to constantly ship out food water, energy, whatever to the other planets as well, all we did was remove all space constraints from our never ending population expansion and increase the burden further.

Water ice can be mined from comets , from gas giant rings, and the polar caps of rocky planets. Energy can come from the sun. The one thing that we can't get in the rest of the solar system is soil and all the goodies inside it. We need to find some way to 'farm' it so that we can make more of it, converting stuff we find in space or on other planets into something that plants can thrive in. Possibly by putting worms and bacteria in it.

So the future is .. dirt farmers! Whattaya know, OOTS is an SF strip! :D

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[paddyfool]

@polity4life,

One of many problems with draconian measures of that kind is that we aren't really having too crazy an excess of babies at the moment. The average number of children per woman is estimated at 2.47, only a little more than a replacement rate of 2.3 or so based on current mortality figures. The reason we're growing so fast is that there are more women now around having children, because the previous generation had a much higher fertility rate. And if we actually were to somehow successfully have many less children, we might well screw ourselves over by going too far the other way, and having too few people of working age 30-60 years later.

Drastic change isn't needed. By all means, help slow things down a little more - you can do so by helping provide family planning to those who lack access to it, e.g. by giving money to the IPPF (http://www.ippf.org/en/) (or any of a thousand smaller charities). Or, alternatively, by funding womens' education, since educated women have fewer children - Save the Children (http://www.savethechildren.org.uk/en/education.htm) and Plan International (http://plan-international.org/what-we-do/education) are two of the larger charities in this area. Or even by volunteering with some local educational charity, maybe.

But proposing that we start militantly policing the number of kids people have internationally? That's wrong in a lot of different ways.


From what I understand, the issue is that economically underprivileged people have more than 2 kids per couple, because there is almost always incentive for them to do that. We just need to find a way to disincentivize that, and we're good to go.

A very good point.

One thing, perhaps the biggest thing, that does disincentivise it is increasing female employment, which gives women a strong incentive to be doing something other than have babies. That certainly seems to have been a big part of what happened in Bangladesh, according to the awesome Hans Rosling. (http://www.gapminder.org/videos/gapcasts/gapcast-5-bangladesh-miracle/) This follows increasing industrialisation; and the good thing about industrialisation is that it tends to move around the world as different workforces become richer and hence more expensive. Once Bangladesh gets rich enough, it'll be sure to move on to other places with large numbers of potential cheap labourers.

[HalfDragonCube]

What Is The Secret Of Soylent Green? (http://youtu.be/SVpN312hYgU)I think Half-Dragon Cube already answered that...

I enjoy Soylent Green as much as the next person. I just like it a little fresher, that's all. :smalltongue:

[Flame of Anor]

7 billion? That's nothing compared to all the various species of insect life. What about their natural resources and education, huh?:smallwink:

See, for example, the H.M. Woggle-bug, T.E.

[Dr.Epic]

I enjoy Soylent Green as much as the next person. I just like it a little fresher, that's all. :smalltongue:

Soylent Green tends to vary from person to person.:smallwink::smalltongue:

[Alleine]

Oddly enough, I think we, as a race, need to consider draconian activities.

How would hoarding gold in giant piles and roasting anyone who comes to take it from you help? And if D&D is any indication, dragons will literally sleep with anything. No way that's gonna help!
That's what he meant by draconian, right?

:smallbiggrin:

[polity4life]

How would hoarding gold in giant piles and roasting anyone who comes to take it from you help? And if D&D is any indication, dragons will literally sleep with anything. No way that's gonna help!
That's what he meant by draconian, right?

:smallbiggrin:

Alleine from the corner for three! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yl3UMO-TkE) And he sinks it!

[Tyndmyr]

Not 5, nor 6. Bloody seven. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-10-30/world-population-hits-seven-billion/51007670/1)

I, for one, am quite concerned by this. Aside from the evolutionary(and perhaps Malthusian) aspect of exhausting natural sources, I believe too much people will also turn education into a competition, thus eradicating the chance to contribute of many, as they will be just replaced by better ones.

Dude, that's a LOT of zombies. I, for one, am very concerned. Even though many of those zombies are fairly far away from me, this means that the fight by the rag-tag bands of human survivors will be all the more difficult.

[HalfDragonCube]

How would hoarding gold in giant piles and roasting anyone who comes to take it from you help? And if D&D HalfDragonCube is any indication, dragons will literally sleep with anything. No way that's gonna help!
That's what he meant by draconian, right?

:smallbiggrin:

Fixed that for you.

[Maralais]

Dude, that's a LOT of zombies. I, for one, am very concerned. Even though many of those zombies are fairly far away from me, this means that the fight by the rag-tag bands of human survivors will be all the more difficult.

Oooh, touché, copying my style and all.

Aaanyway, did I mention that Johnathan Swift's essay is the work of a genius?

[Eldonauran]

*waves hand*

There is no overpopulation problem. You will now go home and rethink your life. :smalltongue:

*walks away*



Seriously though. We are no where near having the ability to overtax the planet*.


*=Disclaimer. Stupidity is the leading cause of all our problems.

[Karoht]

Re: Resources
Myth-Overpopulation is the cause of starving people.
Fact-There is enough unsustainable food production to feed everyone on this planet as it is. The UN has published several reports on food production VS population, the biggest barriers are economical, not production.
Myth-The way we make food now is the best way to do it.
Fact-There are far more sustainable ways to proceed, all of which would greatly increase our ability to produce food.
www.omegagarden.com
Myth-Humans have a massive footprint and there isn't much we can do to minimize it.
Fact-Centralized and decentralized systems can greatly play a role in reducing our footprint. Energy can be saved in all kinds of ways without negatively impacting quality of life, or in some cases, such as the link below, improving quality of life. Superior usage and management of energy also plays a substancial role.
www.earthship.net


The biggest things we need to do are embrace new and greater sustainable energy technology at any cost, and as fast as possible.
Also, we need to ditch the myth that monetary based economics somehow regulate this planets resources. Money is an indirect method of regulation. We need a direct method of regulation of this planets resources. Oil taught us this back in the 70's. Forests taught us this back in the early parts of the industrial revolution. Coal taught us this in the later parts of the industrial revolution. Steel taught us this during WWI and WWII. And yet we still haven't learned.

Re: Technological Unemployment
Look it up.

[H Birchgrove]

I still think a second green revolution wouldn't hurt, based on modern day research on genetics. Norman Borlaug had it right. The fact that Mexico and India didn't starve to death in the 1960's, but actually managed to export grain, is proof as good as any. (Compare with the Soviet Union, which had to import grain from USA. Lysenkoism wasn't the only problem faced by Soviet agriculture, but surely one of the most important.) Fertilizers are needed. Purely ecological and/or bio-dynamic* farming won't sustain the Earth's population, and have shown to have environmental issues of their own.

*Also at least partially based on superstitious ideas of the importance of the full moon etc, though it doesn't mean that other types of ecological farming aren't based on science or at least common sense.

[Giggling Ghast]

Never fear, the numbers will go down after the Zombie Apocalypse of 2012.

[Ravens_cry]

{Scrubbed}

[Rising Phoenix]

I still think a second green revolution wouldn't hurt, based on modern day research on genetics. Norman Borlaug had it right. The fact that Mexico and India didn't starve to death in the 1960's, but actually managed to export grain, is proof as good as any. (Compare with the Soviet Union, which had to import grain from USA. Lysenkoism wasn't the only problem faced by Soviet agriculture, but surely one of the most important.) Fertilizers are needed. Purely ecological and/or bio-dynamic* farming won't sustain the Earth's population, and have shown to have environmental issues of their own.

*Also at least partially based on superstitious ideas of the importance of the full moon etc, though it doesn't mean that other types of ecological farming aren't based on science or at least common sense.

Genetically modified organisms and fertilizers on their own are not the solution. A combined approach is required.

And simply because we can fill the earth with 12+ billion Homo sapiens doesn't mean we should. Especially considering our extremely poor track record of stewardship.

Yes, things are better, but they are far from acceptable. In other words: We have a lot of work to do.

[H Birchgrove]

I would like to argue that Jonathan Swift was attacking the treatment the Irish was given by the English overlords, not over-population. BTW, The Great Irish Famine of 1845 to 1852 wouldn't have happened if the British government hadn't forced Ireland to export grain, meat and pork to England. The Indian famine of 1896–1897 and the Indian famine of 1899–1900 were caused by similar reasons; the colony was still exporting grain despite people starving, and hoarding and following profiteering raised prices of food, due to the implemented policy of laissez-faire.


Genetically modified organisms and fertilizers on their own are not the solution. A combined approach is required.

And simply because we can fill the earth with 12+ billion Homo sapiens doesn't mean we should. Especially considering our extremely poor track record of stewardship.

Yes, things are better, but they are far from acceptable. In other words: We have a lot of work to do.

Agreed. It's because the situation is so desperate, that we can't afford over-looking certain methods due to the Frankenstein complex.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Was that directed toward me?

[Ravens_cry]

No, just a rant in general. I realize now it was a bit of flame bait, and I apologize for that, if not my opinion as stated.

[H Birchgrove]

@ Ravens_cry: I was a bit uncertain which group you opposed (those against or those for biotechnology).

[Ravens_cry]

Oh, I thought I made that clear, but clearly I did not.
So much for humour.
I am for the responsible use of all technology. In some cases that is by not using it, but for the most part, technology is there to be used, biotechnology included.

[H Birchgrove]

Oh, I thought I made that clear, but clearly I did not.
So much for humour.
I am for the responsible use of all technology. In some cases that is by not using it, but for the most part, technology is there to be used, biotechnology included.

Sorry.

Stupid barbarian is stupid. :smallfrown:

That sounds very reasonable and I find myself in agreement with it.

[Karoht]

Permaculture is also another alternative, and by design is sustainable. Using permaculture techniques, it actually wouldn't be all that difficult to convert existing agriculture, where most newer technologies such as hydro/aqua/aeroponics require equipment.
The other good news about permaculture, is that it can be designed with livestock in mind as well.

Look it up. It's actually very clever.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

7 billion people. You know what this means, people.

The Antispirals are coming for us.

[Ravens_cry]

Sorry.

Stupid barbarian is stupid. :smallfrown:

That sounds very reasonable and I find myself in agreement with it.
No, Thug smart, Thug use knife, Thug take care, Thug be safe. Thug NO am go too far.

[Karoht]

See, I'd worry about Monsanto and their potential to create an ecological disaster, long long before I worry about 'frankenfood' such as, well, pretty much anything that wasn't around at the birth of agriculture. Which is pretty much everything.

On theescapist.com movie Bob has a great discussion on this on his show The Big Picture. In fact I think the episode might be called Frankenfood. Good rant. Worth watching.

Enjoy your orange carrots. While you can. *eyeshift eyeshift*

[enderlord99]

No, Thug smart, Thug use knife, Thug take care, Thug be safe. Thug NO am go too far.

I think he was referring to himself, though he shouldn't use that term because of the rules against discussing ranks.

[THAC0]

I think he was referring to himself, though he shouldn't use that term because of the rules against discussing ranks.

His avatar looks a bit barbarianish to me.

[Flame of Anor]

Franken-food, ugh, what a stupid <expletive redacted/> word.
Sure, there is certainly ways genetic engineering can be misused and there is certainly risks associated with it, but when Thug make sharp rock to skin hide and cut deer, Thug need take care not cut Thug.
Should Thug throw 'way sharp rock since big risk?
No, Thug just learn take care.
Me am no go too far!

I'm glad to see a reasonable attitude on this. Too many people latch onto the (legitimate, but not huge) danger of something (GMOs, nuclear power, etc.), blow it way out of proportion, and demand we not use it at all.

[H Birchgrove]

His avatar looks a bit barbarianish to me.

That is what I'm refering to.

That and being a fan of Robert E. Howard and Fritz Leiber, and planning to make longships to conquer your lands and steal your precious metal objects. And comic books and video games, must not forget those. And Tom Cruise, I'll take him as well.
I did not write anything in white, no sir. :smallwink:

[Karoht]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9CCxdkOng&feature=share

Here is a great example of Aquaponics done right. Check it out.