Bounding Assault Maneuver

[Yorae]

This maneuver (Diamond Mind 4, Tome of Battle. pg. 62) is worded rather strangely and I was looking for some clarification.

On first reading, it sounded like it let you move up to double your speed and then make an attack that is considered a charge. However, that is already what a charge is, so taking a maneuver to do that doesn't really make sense. Well, I suppose you could use it to get around the straight line requirement, but it seems unlikely that's what they were going for here.

Thinking about it again, I reasoned that it was intended to let you move, then attack, then move, then attack, much like the feat it shares a name with, except that each attack is considered a charge attack as well. This seems to make sense but, in this case, how does it interact with something like Lion's Charge? By RAW, could my swordsage activate his wand of Lion's Charge (or simply cast it, if he had the ability), then use his full round action for Bounding Assault, and make a full attack at the end of each of his mini-charges?

[Runestar]

Basically, the maneuver let's you charge in circumstances which would make charging difficult or impossible. For instance, as you mentioned, it lets you charge in a crooked line or even move across difficult terrain.

That's pretty much all there is to it. I think you are reading too much into it. :smalltongue:

[Andreaz]

It's just that instead of running a straight line you do a double move, with all normal possibilities allowed by a double move.

Namely a non-straight line, like Runestar said.

[Dusk Eclipse]

But there some nice stuff you can use in conjunction with Bounding Assault, for example if you have pounce from another source (such as Spirit Lion Totem) if you combine it with Insightful Strike (class feature) you get your wis Mod to all your attacks.

I had a build draft that get almost all stats to damage... I couldn't get Con; his damage output was quite nice because all the little boosts added up. (Having Craven and a pair of Many fanged daggers also helped that)

[Yorae]

Wow... so it's only very slightly better than the Twisted Charge skill trick, that you can get for 2 skill points... blech. Time to reevaluate my maneuver choices.

[Jheska]

Dont forget the value of charging over difficult terrain, or otherwise any condition that might negate a charge.

[Flickerdart]

You could also make the charge from standing perfectly still, which is immensely useful.

[Andreaz]

You could also make the charge from standing perfectly still, which is immensely useful.

Using the move actions for something other than moving (or not using them at all) is shady. And not the cool type of shade either.

[Flickerdart]

Using the move actions for something other than moving (or not using them at all) is shady. And not the cool type of shade either.
Um, no. You're not using the movement for anything at all. You make the double move (moving up to your full speed). You just move 0 feet.

[Cespenar]

You could also make the charge from standing perfectly still, which is immensely useful.

Kinda like Gatotsu: Zero-Shiki, if anyone gets that. :smalltongue:

Anyway, that was a good point to make about the maneuver. Not sure if many people realized you could do that.

[Philistine]

Wow... so it's only very slightly better than the Twisted Charge skill trick, that you can get for 2 skill points... blech. Time to reevaluate my maneuver choices.

Depends. For any kind of Charger, Bounding Assault is quite a lot better. As stated, it allows you to take any type of movement, whereas Twisted Charge still limits you to a single right- or obtuse-angled kink; the maneuver allows charging in many more situations. And as a maneuver, Bounding Assault can also be refreshed and re-used during an encounter; like all Skill Tricks, Twisted Charge is strictly limited to once per encounter.

If you're not devoting at least a few feats to beefing up your Charges, though, then you're right - it probably isn't worthwhile compared to other mobility-enhancing maneuvers.

[Ziegander]

You could also make the charge from standing perfectly still, which is immensely useful.

How is this remotely useful? :smallconfused: From standing still you can simply full-attack, getting multiple attacks off, compared to one at +2 to hit.

[Cog]

How is this remotely useful? :smallconfused: From standing still you can simply full-attack, getting multiple attacks off, compared to one at +2 to hit.
There are many feats, class features, weapon abilities, and the like that require a charge to function.

[nedz]

How is this remotely useful? :smallconfused: From standing still you can simply full-attack, getting multiple attacks off, compared to one at +2 to hit.

Presumably if you also have pounce, and charge damage multipliers.

[Little Brother]

How is this remotely useful? :smallconfused: From standing still you can simply full-attack, getting multiple attacks off, compared to one at +2 to hit.Psst. Using pounce and PLC to get 2 full attacks with Shock Trooper, Battle Jump, and Headlong Rush is good. Not having to move to do it is better.

[MesiDoomstalker]

There are many feats, class features, weapon abilities, and the like that require a charge to function.

Combo'ed with Pounce, you get charge benefits with full-attack benefits against an adjacent target. Extremely useful if in tight quarters where you can't move backwards or when an enemy spellcaster is going BFC crazy and you aren't where you'd like to be. Not to mention you could charge around enemies or through allies since the movement is explicitly stated as a double move. Not to mention you can tumble past an enemy you don't care about (HA! The fighter thought I couldn't charge past him to his wizard ally) or if you have enough movement just maneuvre around its AoO range and laugh. You can position yourself in a better position, such as into flanking, which you may not have been able to do so with a regular charge. It has plenty of uses for a charger. Non-charger, its useful but you have better pickings.

[Ziegander]

There are many feats, class features, weapon abilities, and the like that require a charge to function.


Presumably if you also have pounce, and charge damage multipliers.

Sorry, I had a brain fart. So, really it's only "immensely useful" for uber-chargers (I know, they get lots of airtime on forums, but seriously how many people are actually allowed by their DMs to play characters that deal 1000+ damage at 6th level?). If you're not uber-charging, then Bounding Assault is not worth your time, yes?

[Cog]

So, really it's only "immensely useful" for uber-chargers (I know, they get lots of airtime on forums, but seriously how many people are actually allowed by their DMs to play characters that deal 1000+ damage at 6th level?). If you're not uber-charging, then Bounding Assault is not worth your time, yes?
...There is a very broad range between "does not make use of charge" and "ubercharging". Oddly enough, there are people who play in that range. An ubercharger charges and does little else, but many melee builds can afford to throw at least a few resources into charging while still doing something else.

[nedz]

Um, no. You're not using the movement for anything at all. You make the double move (moving up to your full speed). You just move 0 feet.

Well, PH p154 under the heading Charge states that you must move at least 10 feet in order to qualify for a Charge.

Does BAM obviate this requirement ?

[Siosilvar]

Well, PH p154 under the heading Charge states that you must move at least 10 feet in order to qualify for a Charge.

Does BAM obviate this requirement ?

Yes. It does.


As part of this maneuver, make a double move. After you move, you can also make a melee attack. You gain a +2 bonus on this attack. This maneuver is considered a charge attack when determining if feats and other abilities apply to your attack.

You can move any distance from 0 feet up to twice your speed and it will count as a charge. It doesn't have to be in a straight line, you can go across difficult terrain, and you don't have to move to the closest space you can attack from.

[Cespenar]

Sorry, I had a brain fart. So, really it's only "immensely useful" for uber-chargers (I know, they get lots of airtime on forums, but seriously how many people are actually allowed by their DMs to play characters that deal 1000+ damage at 6th level?). If you're not uber-charging, then Bounding Assault is not worth your time, yes?

The good thing about chargers is that the build consists on numerous feats and class features. So, depending on the level of optimization of your group, you can take just the right the feats and have your charger deal the amount of damage you want to deal. For example, in a level 15 campaign, I used part of the charger build (pounce and shock trooper only, IIRC), so my barbarian dealt a puny ~100 damage on a charge, with an added chance to stun. It's pretty customizable is what I mean.

[Ziegander]

The good thing about chargers is that the build consists on numerous feats and class features. So, depending on the level of optimization of your group, you can take just the right the feats and have your charger deal the amount of damage you want to deal. For example, in a level 15 campaign, I used part of the charger build (pounce and shock trooper only, IIRC), so my barbarian dealt a puny ~100 damage on a charge, with an added chance to stun. It's pretty customizable is what I mean.

Good point, good point.

Out of curiosity, where did the chance to stun come from? Weapon? Other feats?

[Bakkan]

Most likely Landshark Boots form Magic of Incarnum bound to the foot chakra.

[herrhauptmann]

Good point, good point.

Out of curiosity, where did the chance to stun come from? Weapon? Other feats?

Sudden Stunning, DMG2?

[Cespenar]

Good point, good point.

Out of curiosity, where did the chance to stun come from? Weapon? Other feats?

Three Mountains Style, Complete Warrior. Two hits in the same round from a greatclub, heavy mace or morningstar(?) incurs a fort save against stun.

Edit: NAUSEA! It didn't stun, but nauseate instead. A brain fart on my part as well, it seems.

Edit2: Though one could have used a Stunning Surge weapon (Magic Item Compendium), if one would like to stun as well.

[candycorn]

Wow... so it's only very slightly better than the Twisted Charge skill trick, that you can get for 2 skill points... blech. Time to reevaluate my maneuver choices.

It also bypasses all the other restrictions of charge. For example, you cannot charge if you don't see your target at the start of your turn.

Charge is a very fragile mechanic. That maneuver is not.

[Yorae]

I see its usefulness now -- were I playing a PA / leap attack / shock trooper / combat brute / etc. monster, it would be quite attractive.

Since I'm working on a TWF build*, not so great. Ah well.

(TWF blender DFI bardblade -> Mo9. Probably not possible normally, but our DM is implementing a feat buy system that made it appealing.)