L5R - How to deal with this?

[Saph]

So our party just started our first L5R campaign. I remember there being a few people in the Playground who've played it more than I have, so thought someone might have some useful advice.

DISCLAIMER: This is a fluff/RP issue and the problem is all to do with the setting. Mechanics mostly irrelevant. :)

The Party

My character: Kitsuki Investigator. Ascetic, honourable, focused on truth and duty.

Seppun Courtier: The character in the party with highest Status and therefore theoretically in charge of (and responsible for) everyone else. In practice, the rest of the party are way more than she can handle.

Akodo Bushi: Shiba school. Dishonourable, sneaky, and kill-happy, but (mostly) loyal to the rest of the party. Works for the Seppun.

There are two other party members, a Shinjo duellist with the True Love disadvantage for my character, and a Dragon bushi who spends his time spreading rumours and hitting on court ladies, but they don't directly come into this story.
The Situation

Our party was asked to investigate the sudden death of a Phoenix shugenja (the girlfriend of the Dragon bushi, in fact). I went with the Shinjo to look into it. The death appeared to be seppuku but several details made us suspect murder. After an hour or so of game time spent running down clues, I was fairly sure I knew who had committed the crime.

Trouble was, that someone was a member of the party. The Akodo bushi told me that he didn't know who'd killed the Phoenix, but I was able to tell he was lying (Kitsuki are good at that sort of thing). When pressed he admitted that he did know who it was, but refused to say who. Worse, he unintentionally gave away that the Seppun was involved to some degree as well.
The Problem

My character knows who committed the crime, but the person who I'm supposed to be reporting it to is one of the people who committed it. Also, in Rokugan the main evidence accepted in the justice system is testimony, and as a higher-Status character the Seppun's testimony would automatically outweigh everyone else's. There's no physical evidence as to who committed the crime, even if that counted for much in Rokugan, which it doesn't.

On top of that, from an OOC point of view I also have to figure out some kind of course of action which doesn't mess up the party too much, as having the game devolve into PvP after only one session would be a little over the top. :)
So, anyone have any suggestions as to what an honourable course of action would be here?

[LibraryOgre]

Focused on truth and duty. You know the truth, now do your duty.

This is obviously a REALLY simplistic answer, because you're also looking for a Western concept of Justice, which is somewhat out of character for Rokugani (though not, if I recall correctly, for Kitsuki).

You know how this is going to play out. If you want justice for this murdered girl, go Columbo. Present your findings to him, but do it in a publicish place, with someone who has enough status to make things stick. Gather evidence that might convince someone.

Otherwise, hers is just another body you will be standing on.

[Chambers]

As you're Kitsuki, I'd go over the other PC's head and present the evidence to your sensei. Given that you're an investigator, your sensei will most likely realize that the evidence you have is valid but understands that you cannot make the claim yourself because of the other persons status. Assuming your sensei is of higher status than the other PC, the sensei can call out the murderous PC.

I don't think your sensei would be unduly upset with you for bringing the problem to him/her either, as he/she would be fully aware that most of Rokugan doesn't rely on evidence and would understand the dilemma.

Yes, it's a form of PvP, but these are the consequences of committing murder and lying about it the members of your party, especially when one is a Kitsuki Investigator.

[Kaun]

Yeah if you want to go public you need to find someone of a higher status then the murderers who likes your version of the truth.

Against an Akodo and a Seppun that will be fun but in L5R with great power comes big enemies!

[Saph]

Hmm . . . Can anyone think of a solution that won't end up with half the party dead/unable to continue working together? Basically I'm trying to reconcile playing my character with the OOC duty of "try to work with the other players".

[The Glyphstone]

Sadly, they're incompatible here it looks like, from what I understand of L5R. Though if it's any consolation, this is the Seppun's fault - either he's new to L5R and doesn't understand stuff like that, or he's planning to rely on his higher status to get away with it because you can't call him out and win.

[Kaun]

Hmm . . . Can anyone think of a solution that won't end up with half the party dead/unable to continue working together? Basically I'm trying to reconcile playing my character with the OOC duty of "try to work with the other players".

Yeah you have to let it remain a suicide rather then murder. He has put you between a rock and a hard place.

[LibraryOgre]

Or, if you like, you can find a way to blackmail him with it. Who doesn't want a Seppun in their pocket?

[Metahuman1]

Well, your handling this better then I would. Course my DM's would have told me if I DID call them out I was screw but if I DIDN'T I'd get destroyed for Metagaming/breaking character.

My answer would have been to stab the guy in his sleep.

Try talking to him out of character, preferably with the DM, and see if you can figure out if he's doing this by accident or deliberately. If the former, see if the DM can get you guys out of this and write it off as a learning experience.

If it's deliberate, Stab him in his sleep and leave a murder weapon that would be traced to someone your character has a legitimate ax to grind with.

[The Glyphstone]

If it's deliberate, Stab him in his sleep and leave a murder weapon that would be traced to someone your character has a legitimate ax to grind with.

I'm pretty sure that would be highly dishonorable.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm pretty sure that would be highly dishonorable.
*chuckles* Yeah, that was my thought. This is Rokugan, after all.

What about the Dragon bushi initiating a duel of honor with the Akodo or the Seppun? I know it doesn't solve the problem of PvP, but it'd be a way to handle it outside of the testimony system.

[Kaun]

What about the Dragon bushi initiating a duel of honor with the Akodo or the Seppun? I know it doesn't solve the problem of PvP, but it'd be a way to handle it outside of the testimony system.

Official duels can take a long time for approval can't they? As you need the consent of both the duelists masters.

On a positive they could duel to first blood, but in slights against ones honor like this i doubt it would be sufficient for either party.

[Hel65]

What are the ties that bind the party members together into one party? You didn't say and it might be important to the matter at hand (e.g. Seppun being an Emerald Magistrate and you all being his assistants or something).

Also, various GMs have various interpretations about honor in Rokugan. Ask your GM for his opinion on the level of 'honourableness' of various courses of action. If he refuses to say outright, tell him you want to roll your Lore: Bushido for answers.

Also, considering that apparently two party members might have been accomplices in murder of a person important to another party member, it might be that the GM planned a short PvP campaign. Check with him/her for that too.

Finally, your evidence isn't that strong yet, you know that there's a guy who knows who did and you know that the Seppun is somehow involved, but it doesn't mean that they did it or even they approve, they might be grudgingly covering their superiors.

Finally, if it really is a situation in which you (and the other dragon I guess) have every right to be angry at the other two party members, you can tell the dragon and he can challenge those guys and his and theirs superiors can say that they approve of the duel, but only once whatever the thing is that you as a party are supposed to do is done, so the duel would happen at the very end of the campaign. This could lead to some interesting inter-party roleplay, but probably wouldn't be degenerating the party - for example, the dragon bushi (assuming he is honorable) would have every reason to help the other two guys survive until he can finally get revenge in a honourable duel.

[Saph]

Okay, the background:

The campaign setting is that the party have been appointed by the Shogun as magistrates to Pleasure City under a new mandate - we're supposed to deal with gaijin relations (gaijin don't have any status in this era of Rokugan, but they do bring in money, which makes them tolerated if not liked). Basically we're the Rokugan equivalent of the police department that deals with ex-pats. All of us are officially magistrates, but as usual in Rokugan, "magistrate" is a political appointment rather than a recognition of ability - the only members of the party who have Investigation and any working knowledge of law/politics are my Kitsuki and the Seppun. The Seppun is Status 4 while the rest of the party are Status 2, making her the one in charge.

The DM isn't planning a short PvP campaign and actually wanted it to be relatively lighthearted - he's just very easygoing and mostly lets the party do their own thing. :smalltongue:

OOC-wise, what happened was this:

• The Akodo impressed one of the local mafia bosses, making them think he would be a good killer-for-hire.
• When approached, the Akodo referred the mafia boss to the Dragon bushi in the (apparently sincere) belief that he was helping the Dragon bushi by "giving him work".
• The Dragon bushi was offered an assassination contract (the victim, unknown to the Dragon, was the Phoenix shugenja). The Dragon bushi declined.
• The mafia boss was displeased and hinted to the Akodo that someone was going to have to do the job, or a new target might be found.
• Meanwhile, in an unrelated incident, the Dragon bushi had been caught in a compromising position with his new girlfriend, the Phoenix shugenja. The Seppun was extremely angry and told the Akodo to "deal with it". (The Seppun's player is fairly new, and while IC she's supposed to be the Akodo's boss, OOC she can't control him at all.)
• The Akodo decided that the best solution to all this would be to assassinate the Phoenix shugenja himself, and did so, attempting to make it look like seppuku. By his twisted logic, he was helping the rest of the party by doing this.
• Next day we get asked to investigate the supposed "suicide".

[Geddoe]

Hmm . . . Can anyone think of a solution that won't end up with half the party dead/unable to continue working together? Basically I'm trying to reconcile playing my character with the OOC duty of "try to work with the other players".

Sure, you have a random peasant accused of the crime, and tortured until he confesses. There, Rokugani justice is served. The killer has confessed. Implication of blackmail of seppun optional.

[Chambers]

Sounds like the Akodo bushi doesn't care about Honor. That killing should have been a huge Honor loss. If the test of the characters ate honorable, this is just going to be the first of many problems. I'd have the group talk with the player and see if everyone is on the same page for what type of game they're expecting, because if the Akodo player keeps playing like this (which isn't an inherently bad thing), then your group will constantly have inter party conflict.

I don't mean to say that the Akodo player should be kicked out or his character killed, just that everyone should make sure you're on the same page regarding the style of play.

[Lance Dearnis]

Well, there's one assumption I think you should go back and examine - mainly, does the Seppun have to be against you here?

If he's the Akodo's boss but knows he can't control him - and the Akodo is commiting murders that can be traced back to him! - you have a very strong case to 'burn' the Akodo, so to speak. That is, talk to the Seppun about something troublesome you found - and that you've referred back to your sensei to try to get confirmation on, etc., but that you have very strong evidence against the Akodo.

Now, it's VERY easy and in-character for the Seppun to just say "I expected him to deal with his dishonor in a public manner rather then commit murder, let me help you bring him to justice." You can probably think of a better way to convince him to move along these lines then I, since you're in the game with him.

Now, if you're asking how to keep the -entire group- together...sadly, you know the Akodo committed the crime, you're a Kitsuki, and you're honorable. That bridge has already been crossed. But if you want to work along with the Seppun, try to.

The Dragon Bushi might get some egg on his face, but really, affairs aren't -that- big of a deal in Rokugan most of the time. They're expected. There's an entire chapter in Emerald Empire on how to properly and honorably conduct an open affair in court that everyone knows is happening but can't prove.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Ah...so it sounds as though the Seppun didn't actually condone murder. That makes things easier. It's just the Akodo.

[Kaun]

OOC-wise, what happened was this:

• The Akodo impressed one of the local mafia bosses, making them think he would be a good killer-for-hire.
• When approached, the Akodo referred the mafia boss to the Dragon bushi in the (apparently sincere) belief that he was helping the Dragon bushi by "giving him work".
• The Dragon bushi was offered an assassination contract (the victim, unknown to the Dragon, was the Phoenix shugenja). The Dragon bushi declined.


I get the feeling that your playing L5R Saph and the rest of your group is playing DnD with L5R rules?

Please correct me if i am wrong.

[Saph]

I get the feeling that your playing L5R Saph and the rest of your group is playing DnD with L5R rules?

Please correct me if i am wrong.

Heh. It's more that the guy playing the Akodo bushi has a tendency to always play eccentric sociopaths.

The idea of approaching the Seppun makes sense, I think I'll try that. I'm pretty sure the player will have absolutely no idea how to deal with it, but it should make for an entertaining conversation. :)

[Hel65]

Heh. It's more that the guy playing the Akodo bushi has a tendency to always play eccentric sociopaths.

The idea of approaching the Seppun makes sense, I think I'll try that. I'm pretty sure the player will have absolutely no idea how to deal with it, but it should make for an entertaining conversation. :)

Well, you can help the Seppun and make some suggestions (OOC maybe). Fortunately, if you all want OOC to keep the group together, Rokugan is the perfect setting to do so, as you can hate someone's guts and have to work with him because your superior said so. In this situation, if the Seppun isn't a paragon of honour, (s)he could say something along the lines of "The Shogun appointed us and it would be a great shame for me if this came out, shut your mouth about it" and then you have an interesting conflict between truth and duty :) A more honourable option for the Seppun would be to fake some less severe charges against the Akodo (ones that would not reflect badly upon his superiors) and have him punished for that. The Seppun could also have the charges of murder publicized and ask someone higher up "can I order this Akodo to seppuku?" and receive an answer along the lines of "no, he's there for a reason, but he's stripped of his family name/has to become a deathseeker/some other appropriate punishment". Hopefully one of these solutions would satisfying for all players (though I guess most characters would be miffed, but hey, that's L5R ;) )

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Sounds like the Akodo bushi doesn't care about Honor. That killing should have been a huge Honor loss.

I wouldn't say that at all. It looks to me like the Akodo is working very diligently to preserve the appearance of honor for his superior, hence fulfilling his duty. He is attempting to read between the lines in order to do what he-- incorrectly-- believes is actually being requested.


I'd have the group talk with the player and see if everyone is on the same page for what type of game they're expecting, because if the Akodo player keeps playing like this (which isn't an inherently bad thing), then your group will constantly have inter party conflict.

Yes, this is best. The Akodo player may very well be operating in the belief that, this being an L5R game, scheming of this type is to be expected.


I get the feeling that your playing L5R Saph and the rest of your group is playing DnD with L5R rules?

From what I've seen, it seems like all of the players are playing L5R brilliantly. The heart of the game is trying to figure out what the right thing to do is in impossible situations like this one.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

You know, this thread reminds me of why I want to find a group that plays L5R...well, after I get a copy of the rulebook.

[Arraxis]

Keep us updated on how this progresses - I'm quite curious to know the end result of this. I hate to say that I don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said, though. Best of luck with bringing the perpetrator to justice and making the game work for everyone, though!

[Saph]

Well, in the end I approached the Seppun, explained things to her, and asked what she was planning to do about her retainer's actions. Her response was to state that the investigation was closed and to "lose" the report.

Just to add to the fun, the other two members of the party (the Dragon bushi and the Shinjo) couldn't make it this week, and in the meantime we'd been assigned another investigation, a semi-combat mission to a village several days journey away. This left my character obliged to go on a journey to do something highly dangerous with two travelling companions who both had a really good reason to want me dead.

It made for an interesting session, at least. :)

[The Glyphstone]

I suggest a safety net. Leave a sealed letter with someone important who you can rely on - your sensei, or somesuch - that must only be opened if the Seppun and the Akodo come back without you. In it, detail your findings, how you uncovered the murder only to be suppressed by the Seppun, and explain (posthumously) that they almost certainly murdered you to prevent the secret from ever getting out. Assuming said sensei is of higher Status than the Seppun, it'll be revenge from beyond the grave.

[Kaun]

Who is the Emerald champion in your game anyway?