Versatile Spellcaster - How do you rule it

[Darth_Versity]

So there is a difference of opinion on how versatile spellcaster works regarding spell levels you cannot cast yet. Some people believe you can never cast a spell that is higher than your current level (probably the RAI) but others believe that if you have access to higher spells via bloodlines or runestaffs etc, you can sacrifice two of your highest spell levels to cast.

Now in a recent game I ruled that a character could do this (he was a monk/sorcerer/dragonheart mage, it really didn't help make him stronger) but I then wondered if I would rule the same with a full casting character.

So my question is, how would you personally rule Versatile Spellcaster, ignore the RAI vs RAW argumant. Just your own ruling.

[Eisirt]

VERSATILE SPELLCASTER
You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells.
Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

Nothing confusing there...

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The "trick" involves gaining access to spell levels above what you can normally cast and certain class' abilities to know all spell levels of spell levels they can cast.

A 2nd level sorcerer can't throw in two first level slots to gain [i]web[i/], because he doesn't know it or any other 2nd level spells yet. He could do a Heightened Magic Missile or some other metamagic'd spell.

However, beguilers, war mages, and dread necromancers have the weird clause where they know all spells of levels they can cast. Thus, a 2nd level beguiler throws in two 1st level spell slots and out pops any 2nd level spell he would otherwise know when he hits 4th level and gains "legitimate," class based 2nd level slots.

EDIT: Screw it - to actually answer your question - spontaneous casters need love, let them throw in stuff to gain higher level spell "slots."

[Eisirt]

However, beguilers, war mages, and dread necromancers have the weird clause where they know all spells of levels they can cast. Thus, a 2nd level beguiler throws in two 1st level spell slots and out pops any 2nd level spell he would otherwise know when he hits 4th level and gains "legitimate," class based 2nd level slots.

This I would NEVER allow, it would break the CR-balance totally (as far is it isn't broken already).

[Redshirt Army]

I'd let them cast the spells, but not let them qualify for PRC's with them.

[Psyren]

Add: "This does not allow you to cast spells that are above the maximum level of spells you know or have access to."

So you can still use two 1sts to cast a 2nd, but not until 4th-level or higher.

Then create Epic Versatile Caster [Epic] to break this restriction for post-20 games.

[LansXero]

The part where it gets iffy is with 0th level slots and with sorcerer/wizard multiclasses

[hisnamehere]

To assume that you can gain access to higher level spells than you can cast according to your class-related caster level is nothing short of creating confusion where there is none.
If anyone thinks of this from a logical and rational standpoint, where they assume the rules of our beloved are written so that all combinations of abilities/feats/skills/etc were balanced (RAI) they will determine without doubt that this feat is straightforward.
Anyone saying otherwise is trying to beat their peers by cheating. Just use the rules as they are intended. If "as intended" is broken (too weak or too strong), find a way to BALANCE it.
Granting spellcasters even more ways to ensure their dominance in DnD is ridiculous. Many believe that Tier 1 casters should be omitted - those classes need no more love. As it is, you can argue yourself into getting high-level casting ability with 2-3 types of spellcasting, let alone being able to cast spells that you don't qualify for, especially by taking JUST ONE FEAT!

End rant.

[docnessuno]

Allowing a character to cast a spell he shouldn't know (RAI at least)? No.
Allowing a character with access to 3rd level spells to cast an extended one (using a 4th level slot)? Yes.
Allowing early entry in some PRCs using heighteen spell? Maybe, depending on the optimization level i'm comfortable with.

[Nich_Critic]

I like it for use with metamagic - that is, burn two slots of level X to cast a +1 metamagic'd spell of level X. In that case, I'm ok with it going above the level that a character could normally cast. I don't know that I would let them qualify for PrC's using that trick, and I don't like the "spontanious casters get access to higher level spells" shenanigans.

Basically, my ruling (rule of fun, moreso then raw or rai) would be that it can exceed the level with regards to metamagic, but that doesn't mean you can cast a spell of that higher level. If you can cast 2nd level spells, you can cast a 2nd level spell at +1 by burning two slots, but it's still a 2nd level spell for all purposes. When you have access to 3rd level spells you can use it normally (as well as metamagic your 3rd level spells).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, using two of your highest-level available spell slots to cast a spell that's one level higher than you would otherwise be able to cast, whether an actual spell you know or a metamagic spell that's effectively higher level, is exactly concurrent with RAI. This was specifically addressed in an Ask Wizards article which which is no longer up, but has been quoted several places:



Q: Can a sorcerer combine Versatile Spellcasting with a metamagic feat to cast a spell whose level is higher than the level of spells he’d normally be able to cast?

A: This is possible. For example, a 1st level sorcerer using the Versatile Spellcaster feat can give up two 1st-level spells to cast extended shield.

Furthermore, if you know spells from more than one spell list, i.e. a multiclass Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus, or a gestalt Warmage//Ranger, or even a Beguiler with Magical Training who adds additional spells to his spellbook, then you can use spell slots from your spontaneous class to cast a spell you know of the other class spell list, with all effects (whether arcane/divine, caster level, etc.) based on your spontaneous class from which the spell slots were spent.

As for classes which automatically know all the spells on their class list that they're capable of casting, i.e. Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer, I would allow them to gain knowledge of the next higher level of spells early by virtue of Versatile Spellcaster alone. Instead of being one level behind the prepared classes on spell levels available, they're one level ahead of them, but they're using up twice as many daily resources to cast those spells. It's only a big difference at 1st-2nd level, when they've already got 2nd level spells like Glitterdust, but blinding an encounter for one or two rounds is hardly game-breaking.

Many will say that Versatile Spellcaster doesn't allow those classes to cast spells of the next higher level until they already know spells of that level, thus they do not gain knowledge of spells of that level until they can demonstrate their ability to cast them. This line of reasoning would prevent those classes from gaining spells known at any level, as even with spell slots of a given level you cannot demonstrate your ability to cast spells of that level until you know at least one. The requirement of being able to demonstrate spellcasting ability has no basis anyhow, considering a Wizard 5/ PrC-that-requires-3rd-level-spells who's used up all of his 3rd level and higher spells for the day does not lose access to the class features of that prestige class due to his inability to demonstrate that he fulfills its prerequisites. If a given DM decides to arbitrarily rule that Versatile Spellcaster does not automatically grant early knowledge of the next higher level of spells, then gaining them is just one feat away anyhow, whether by a Bloodline feat or Magical Training or even Heighten/Sanctum Spell.

Versatile Spellcaster's interaction with these classes as far as gaining early access to a higher level of spells (only one level sooner than prepared classes) is within the RAI and definitely not game-breaking. Its interaction with access to multiple spell lists, particularly the Wizard spell list via Magical Training, can be a bit too good if used to its highest potential, but they're still spending twice as many spell slots at a time to emulate a Tier 1 class. Whether or not to allow it depends entirely on your game specifically, if you have strong Tier 1-2 characters in the party then allowing a Tier 3 to use Versatile Spellcaster to keep up is a good idea. If your entire party is Tier 3 and lower, then allowing early access to higher level spells is probably still acceptable but allowing them access to Tier 1 spell lists via a combination of feats is probably not.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This I would NEVER allow, it would break the CR-balance totally (as far is it isn't broken already).

Yeah? We don't care about that. We know almost nobody would allow it. Did that stop us from making Pun-Pun? D2 Crusader? Idiot Crusader? The Übercharger?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

However, beguilers, war mages, and dread necromancers have the weird clause where they know all spells of levels they can cast. Thus, a 2nd level beguiler throws in two 1st level spell slots and out pops any 2nd level spell he would otherwise know when he hits 4th level and gains "legitimate," class based 2nd level slots.

This I would NEVER allow, it would break the CR-balance totally (as far is it isn't broken already).

No no no, it doesn't give you spell slots by any reading whatsoever. It gives you the next higher level of spells on your class spell list as spells known, and nothing more. You have to spend two spell slots of your highest level currently available to cast them, so you're using up twice as many resources to gain access to a level of spells one level earlier than prepared casters. You have no spell slots of that higher level, versatile spellcaster does not give you virtual spell slots or anything of the sort, so you would not even gain bonus spells of that level for having a high ability score. It would take a huge combination of feats and shenanigans to actually get higher level spell slots early, similar to how a Cleric 6 can cast Miracle, but someone succeeding in this is not something to worry about.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

No no no, it doesn't give you spell slots by any reading whatsoever. It gives you the next higher level of spells on your class spell list as spells known, and nothing more. You have to spend two spell slots of your highest level currently available to cast them, so you're using up twice as many resources to gain access to a level of spells one level earlier than prepared casters. You have no spell slots of that higher level, versatile spellcaster does not give you virtual spell slots or anything of the sort, so you would not even gain bonus spells of that level for having a high ability score. It would take a huge combination of feats and shenanigans to actually get higher level spell slots early, similar to how a Cleric 6 can cast Miracle, but someone succeeding in this is not something to worry about.

Right, you aren't getting virtual spell slots, I was merely saying that a 1st level beguiler or any of the other spontaneous casters that know their entire spell list could chuck in two first level slots to pop out a 2nd level spell. I wasn't implying that in doing so, they would gain bonus 2nd level slots. I probably could have said that better, in all honesty.:smallredface:

[Psyren]

I like it for use with metamagic - that is, burn two slots of level X to cast a +1 metamagic'd spell of level X. In that case, I'm ok with it going above the level that a character could normally cast. I don't know that I would let them qualify for PrC's using that trick, and I don't like the "spontanious casters get access to higher level spells" shenanigans.

I wouldn't allow that either. If you want to extend mage armor, wait until level 4 when you have 2nd-level slots, or burn a feat on PA.

Versatile Spellcaster remains useful, but this way it can't be used to get access to things a sorcerer of your level shouldn't have access to, including PrCs.

[docnessuno]

I wouldn't allow that either. If you want to extend mage armor, wait until level 4 when you have 2nd-level slots, or burn a feat on PA.

Versatile Spellcaster remains useful, but this way it can't be used to get access to things a sorcerer of your level shouldn't have access to, including PrCs.

Remeber that the "early PRC entry" bit means you are spending 2 feats (versatile spellcaster and heighteen spell), just to enter 1 level earlier than a mage. Handy, but hardly broken.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I wouldn't allow that either. If you want to extend mage armor, wait until level 4 when you have 2nd-level slots, or burn a feat on PA.

Versatile Spellcaster remains useful, but this way it can't be used to get access to things a sorcerer of your level shouldn't have access to, including PrCs.

So, you would prefer a character go Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake instead? There are plenty of early qualification tricks besides Versatile Heighten, and most won't let you take a prestige class any sooner than a Wizard anyway due to skill requirements. It just puts Sorcerers on somewhat more even ground other than having to dump feats into qualifying in a feat-starved chassis.

As I demonstrated above, using Versatile Spellcaster to cast a metamagic version of a spell that has an effective level higher than your current available spell slots is both RAW and RAI, so disallowing it would be nothing short of unfair.

[Psyren]

As I demonstrated above, using Versatile Spellcaster to cast a metamagic version of a spell that has an effective level higher than your current available spell slots is both RAW and RAI, so disallowing it would be nothing short of unfair.

Unless you got an e-mail from Gwendolyn, you can't claim what RAI is in this instance.

I'll cede that I wasn't using wizard power as a baseline though. (Not that we should be, but still.)

[mykelyk]

Only beguilers, warmages and dread necros gain spells that could not normally cast, those are tier 3 or more class they are not going to break anything with it (keep in mind that half of the time a wizard of the same level can cast those spells with his normal slot).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Unless you got an e-mail from Gwendolyn, you can't claim what RAI is in this instance.

I'll cede that I wasn't using wizard power as a baseline though. (Not that we should be, but still.)

Well, when the base line is casters, you pay casters unto casters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unless you got an e-mail from Gwendolyn, you can't claim what RAI is in this instance.

I'll cede that I wasn't using wizard power as a baseline though. (Not that we should be, but still.)

As I demonstrated above, using Versatile Spellcaster to cast a metamagic version of a spell that has an effective level higher than your current available spell slots is both RAW and RAI, so disallowing it would be nothing short of unfair.

Q: Can a sorcerer combine Versatile Spellcasting with a metamagic feat to cast a spell whose level is higher than the level of spells he’d normally be able to cast?

A: This is possible. For example, a 1st level sorcerer using the Versatile Spellcaster feat can give up two 1st-level spells to cast extended shield.
You're basically saying that you would tell a player that even though the feat is supposed to work that way, his character just can't have Nice Things.

[dextercorvia]

Also, Sorcerers with a Bloodline feat or similar can use VS to cast an actual 2nd level spell they know at 1st level.

[jiriku]

Whether I would allow it would really depend on the group I was DMing and the player involved.

In a past group of low-op players, players of the spellcasting characters really struggled to contribute because they lacked the system mastery to play their classes effectively. At the time, I would frequently spoonfeed high-op character-building advice to these players, including early entry tricks, to help them keep up and have a good time.

In my current group, everyone understands the game pretty well and weaker players frequently solicit build advice from stronger players. However, I have some players who prefer to play nonspellcasters, and I've spent considerable effort constructing a T4-T2 environment in which most exploits are off limits, so that these players will not feel penalized for their preference. Allowing Versatile Spellcaster to grant early access to higher-level spells would upset this careful balance, and I'd disallow it if any player asked for it.

In a third group in which I expect to play soon, the DM is specifically seeking a high-op T1 group, and if someone came to the table with a spontaneous caster, I'd happily point them towards Versatile Spellcaster to consider for their build.