Bardblade vs. Max Inspire Courage, Pros & Cons?

[Campbellk8105]

I'm interested in making a bard for an upcoming campaign but I can't decide which way to go with it. IC optimizing seems very good for the party as a whole by using dragonfire inspiration to give a whole lot of extra damage. While Bardblade, as I see built most is Bard4/Warblade16, I know it can still use IC well to an extent but not as high as just IC optimizing. Bardblade seems as a much better build for an actual fight (fighting in melee) rather than IC buffing where you'd more or less stay in the back buffing the party and throwing spells, maybe even using a ranged weapon since you get the d6 damage bonus as well. Any good input people can give me would be appreciated.

Also I see a lot on people saying to use snowflake wardance and possibly using slippers of battledancing, are either of the two really worth it?

[The Glyphstone]

Bardblades have the feat Song Of The White Raven, which makes warblade levels stack with Bard levels for the potency of your Inspire Courage. The only thing you lose is uses/day, which isn't a big penalty.

[Campbellk8105]

The races I have to choose from are human, elf, and half elf. And any of the 3.5e books are available.

[mootoall]

You can optimize Inspire Courage just as well with a straight Bard as with a Bardblade. What you're giving up with a Bardblade is casting for maneuvers. I'd recommend Silverbrow Human for your race, so you can take Dragonfire Inspiration.

[Flickerdart]

Unless you fight more than four combats per day, Bard 4 is plenty of Bard, and if you do, you should pick up some Extra Music or carry around Harpy Feathers for a rainy day.

[marcielle]

Human, for the love of music, pick human. Especially if you mean Core elves.

[Lateral]

Silverbrow Human. Seriously, it's the best race for it- gets access to DFI, and has that human bonus feat.

The only disadvantage in IC that Bardblades or Bardsaders have less 1st level spell slots with which to cast Inspirational Boost; however, as long as you have a Charisma of at least 12, you get 3 per day; get one eternal wand of Inspirational Boost and that's 5/day, so you're pretty much set seeing as how you probably only have four uses per day anyway.

[Godskook]

Bard:
-Snowflake Wardance for Cha to attack rolls(on top of your normal stat)
-No worries about running out of music attempts per day.

Bardblade:
-You're really a Warblade with IC throw on.

If you really want to be a bard, be a *BARD*, but if you're wanting to be a Warblade with some IC on top of it, be a Bardblade.

[Flickerdart]

You might want to pick up Song of the White Raven anyway, since swift-action music is pretty boss. With that and Harmonize, you can drop three music effects in one round!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd go Bard 4/ Warblade, and you can't go wrong with Human.

Learn the spell Inspirational Boost (SpC).
Get a Badge of Valor (MIC) as early as possible; an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW) is highly recommended.
Song of the Heart (ECS) and Words of Creation (BoED, good-aligned only) are two feats you'll want for getting a higher bonus out of Inspire Courage, along with Song of the White Raven (ToB).

Dragonfire Inspiration from Dragon Magic is often recommended, if you go this route you'll want to use one of the Dragonblood race variants from that same book: Silverbrow Human, or Forestlord Elf or Half-Elf.

I'll usually recommend Melodic Casting (CM), so you can keep Inspire Courage running when you cast spells and use certain types of magic items. It also lets you use Perform instead of Concentration for casting spells, so it's like gaining an extra skill point per level because it saves you from spending all those Concentration ranks.

One trick with a DFI Bard is to get Lingering Song, and use Inspirational Boost + Inspire Courage to grant the +X bonus to attack and damage rolls, only to cease that song on the following round but its effect lasts 10 rounds. On the following round you Inspirational Boost + Dragonfire Inspiration + Badge of Valor, so everyone still has +X to attack and damage rolls but they also get +X+1 in d6's of fire damage. With fewer daily uses of Bardic Music you probably won't go this route, but it's something to consider for future use.

More than one bard using Inspire Courage doesn't stack normally because it's all Morale bonuses, but if one is inspiring normally and another is using Dragonfire Inspiration then they will stack. If there's another bard who has Draconic Heritage using Dragonfire Inspiration for a different type of energy then that too will stack.

[Lateral]

If you're going Bard 4/Warblade 16, don't take Melodic Casting- you barely have 2nd level spells and Diamond Mind maneuvers are keyed off of Concentration.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're going Bard 4/Warblade 16, don't take Melodic Casting- you barely have 2nd level spells and Diamond Mind maneuvers are keyed off of Concentration.

You can use Command Word and Spell Completion items without interrupting your Inspire Courage with Melodic Casting. Scrolls are spell completion, which isn't a big issue, but there are quite a few extremely useful command word items, namely Eternal Wands. I'd say it's still worth having, plus I've never been a big fan of Diamond Mind strikes, but your mileage may vary.

[hex0]

If you are going to play a Silverbrow Human, you might as well pick up the Draconic Aura feat as well.

[Campbellk8105]

Yes I am going to be a Silverbrow Human, just got that confirmed. What are peoples opinions on this build. (Also making a second bard character.)

Bard6/Paladin of freedom2/Virtuoso2/sublime chord2/Virtuoso+7

Note this only gets me to level 19 but it seems good enough. With Badge of Valor, and Vest of Legends. Swapping suggestion for Song of the Heart. Taking Word of Creation. Have a Battle Rattle, also take focused performer and focused performance to really amp up my other character (Other bard will be the Bard4/Warblade16). I'll have a high IC and 9th level casting along with CHA to my saves and AC.

[kulosle]

is it just me or have i detected a higher frequency of bardery on the forums. i totally support it. i will suggest yet again the harmonizer knight. its a paladin variant that gives bardic music and divine performer so you can be a lawful bard. bank. you do need to take song of white raven so that you don't waist a turn starting up your music. pick your favorite level of maneuvers and take a one level dip.

snowflake wardance is a trap. you can add far more to your attack through an optimized IC. and the slippers are only really good if your a bard dervish. PF has a battle bard that is essentially a dervish. or the PrC itself is awesome. other wise you need to find a way to move 10 feet each round. or be a multishot archer, i'd advise against it.

[Keld Denar]

You can SFWD and do IC at the same time. SFWD doesn't even cost an action to activate. It does chew up an extra BM use though, which, for a Bardblade is a rather limited resource.

Also, staring IC as a swift action is actually a bit of a problem too. If you want to get a better IC, you need to cast Insp Boost, which is a swift action. If you cast Insp Boost as your swift action, you can't activate IC as your swift action. Badge of Valor takes up your next turns swift action as well, if you really want to max the sucker out.

[Mato]

I'll have a high IC and 9th level casting along with CHA to my saves and AC.

Bard 8 / Crusader 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / (Jade Phoenix Made +5 / Abjuration Champion 4 taken however) gives you 9th level spells and 7th level Maneuvers. Not to mention up to 8 uses of Bardic Music which is perfect for kicking out both the normal and Dragonfire versions of Inspiration for the four encounters.

Sirine's Grace (spc) can be Persisted (by various means) and it gives a Deflection bonus to AC equal to your Charisma Bonus. This works great with Snowsong too. You know, that spell that gives Fast Healing 1, Frost, +4 Insight to AC, and +4 Moral to Attack & Charisma to the entire party? Yeah, kinda handy. Bard's are excellent support characters and quite deadly in their own right.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If you are worried about first level spells per day for purposes of spells for IC, I'm a big fan of just going Bard 6/Crusader 14. I'm also a fan of Crusader, due to the extra maneuvers per combat, but that's just me.

[Iferus]

If you're combining martial classes with the bard, take a look at this homebrew school: http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/school?school=Lost%20Lyrics

[Campbellk8105]

I have read another thread and a person on there said the you can use the badge of valor, words of creation, and IC on your turn. Then once you "end" your turn, you immediately use Ins Boost as your swift action of that round. Could that work?

The homebrew class looks nice but I'm not sure my DM will go for it. Also, I might change my second character from bard4/crusader:warblade16, and might make a warforged. However, Im not sure what class would be good for a warforged. I see a lot of people say monk, but monk isn't a great class on it's own. Im not sure if some sort of caster might work? Or if I should stick to just a fighter type.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I have read another thread and a person on there said the you can use the badge of valor, words of creation, and IC on your turn. Then once you "end" your turn, you immediately use Ins Boost as your swift action of that round. Could that work?

I believe the argument, action-wise, is you go Inspirational Boost (swift), Badge of Valor (immediate, stealing next turns swift action), Words of Creation (non-action, done as a part of Inspire Courage), and then Inspire Courage itself as a standard action. This assumes you can "interrupt" your own turn with immediate actions.

[Darrin]

The homebrew class looks nice but I'm not sure my DM will go for it. Also, I might change my second character from bard4/crusader:warblade16, and might make a warforged.


Warforged make excellent Warblades (not exactly a surprise, considering they have a deity called God of Blades). Bards and Crusaders... not so much, because of that -2 Cha penalty. However, if you can add the Magic-Blooded template (Dragon #306), you can shift that -2 Cha penalty to -2 Wis (-4 Wis total... your Will save is going to seriously blow).



However, Im not sure what class would be good for a warforged.

Warforged make fantastic Barbarians (immune to fatigue) and Totemists (free slam attack).

I'm also quite fond of Warforged Warlocks (Cue Ozzy: "He was turned to steel in the great magnetic field! When he traveled time for the future of Mankind.") Caster-wise, though, hard to beat a Warforged Artificer. If you don't want to muck around with infusions, Wizard is always a strong choice.

[Keld Denar]

WoC is a non-action. IC is a standard, and Insp Boost is a swift action. Those are all doable on one round. Badge of Valor is an Immediate action. You can take it any time. Simply activate it sometime between the end of your turn and the start of your next allies turn and it'll be all good. You won't get a swift action next round, but thats not the end of the world.

As Darrin said, Warforged make excellent Warblades. They also make decent Bardblades. Without SFWD, you don't really need Cha for much. You could totally get away with a 12 starting Cha (after racials). This gives you a bonus 1st level spell and the ability to cast up to 2nd level spells. If you want a bonus 2nd level spell (since you know 2 2nd level spells at Bard4, but don't have any 2nd level slots), simple pick up a Cloak of Cha +2 at some point, or tack +4 Cha onto your Cloak of Resistance. Easy as pie!

[Campbellk8105]

I'm thinking warforged warlock. Any particular builds or will just warlock do?

[Keld Denar]

With the Cha penalty, I wouldn't try too hard to rely on save based invocations. Instead, focus on buffage invocations like Walk Unseen. Also, if you grab Adamantine Body at 1st level, you'll be pretty resiliant in melee, so you can benefit greatly from the Eldritch Glaive invocation in Dragon Magic. Rawr!

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm thinking warforged warlock. Any particular builds or will just warlock do?

Depends on what you want the warlock to do. With the CHA-penalty, being an Eldritch Blast/no-save-invocation-monkey is a good idea. Check for the Glaivelock mini-guide if you want real battle damage (TM).

[Darrin]

With the Cha penalty, I wouldn't try too hard to rely on save based invocations. Instead, focus on buffage invocations like Walk Unseen. Also, if you grab Adamantine Body at 1st level, you'll be pretty resiliant in melee, so you can benefit greatly from the Eldritch Glaive invocation in Dragon Magic. Rawr!

Actually, you want Mithral Body. Adamantine Body incurs ASF penalties (counts as heavy armor). Warlock invocations require somatic gestures, although they can ignore ASF in light armor.