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brujon
2011-11-06, 02:43 PM
You are going in your merry way. Every day you awake, brush your teeth, have your breakfast, drink some coffee, go to work. Each day is as normal as the day before... But you suddenly start having visions. Visions that increase in intensity. In these visions, one year from now, there is a zombie apocalypse. The signs from your dream start happening, and you come to the realization that the visions are real. Everyone else is clueless about it, but one year from now, there will be a zombie apocalypse.

You have been given an year to prepare for the coming apocalypse. How would you do it? Assume you are a regular person(maybe even yourself), with regular wealth, and regular skills. How would you prepare? Is this a campaign you would be interested in playing, and if so, in which system?

Ravens_cry
2011-11-06, 02:49 PM
I would play a scientist at White Plateau.
When subject #616 of the Post-Mortem Reanimation Project gets out of hand, I take out my emergency shotgun and pull an xkcd. (http://xkcd.com/734/) Game over, everyone can go on living their lives, as it should, because any Zombie Apocalypse we have a chance to nip in the bud would die before it got to Zombie Mild Annoyance levels.

prufock
2011-11-06, 03:02 PM
Buy/build a bunker. Begin hoarding weapons and ammunition, hoping to never have to use them. Also hoard food and bottled water. I would like to have enough to last 2 years. Eventually the power will cut out, so a few generators, the tools to repair them, and fuel to run them will be necessary as well (fuel will be rationed for when I reallllly need it). Have protective gear. Build myself a suit out of kevlar if possible. Ever seen the bear attack armor. Get some of that.

Oh yeah, move somewhere where it is A) regular mild temperature year round and B) low population. It will be difficult to find a place with both of those criteria, but get as close as I can. Also make sure it's not a place where there are regular natural disasters.

Start working out, mostly for endurance. Running is important, building for both speed and distance. Start taking emergency first aid and some basic medical classes. Stock up on medicines I might need and other medical supplies.

Write out all of my visions and send copies to people I trust and people in the media and government. Explain what will happen, and what I think they should do when it starts to happen. They will almost certainly dismiss this, but maybe some of it can get through. Post it online as well.

My bunker will also be stocked with a few items for entertainment that don't take up too much space. A couple boxes of books, some playing cards, a harmonica and acoustic guitar with spare strings.

Have some sperm frozen and buy some eggs from different female donors. Start stockpiling my own blood and have the equipment necessary for transfusions, just in case.

That's a start.

Yora
2011-11-06, 03:30 PM
I guess I would go to northern norway. Remote, few people, yet still relatively good infrastructure and not so far away. It also should be easier to get weapons than in other parts of europe because of the wild animals, so you can easily dispatch the one or two zombies that make it up there.
And come winter, the zombies get frozen solid, however I'm not sure what happens when they thaw in spring.

Funkyodor
2011-11-06, 03:42 PM
Need liquidity at the beginning: So borrow as much money you can against all your assets to hire someone to find and purchase a house in an out of the way area, preferrably next to some water & woods. Pay to have it enhanced with decent refridgaration & solar heating/charging, reinforced windows/doors/grates. Slowly acquire guns & ammo, long shelf life food, generators, bikes & motorcycles, gas. Hunt around the grapevine for a loan shark to borrow money from if you run low. Pay for an insane internet connection and download as many movies/shows/porn as you can (creature comforts are awesome). Last week purchase perishable foods, frozen goods, radios, batteries and such. Plan for as many friends & family as you like so the moment before the apocalypse you can invite them for a house warming. Don't fill them in till after they see it on the news.

Calanon
2011-11-06, 05:12 PM
And come winter, the zombies get frozen solid, however I'm not sure what happens when they thaw in spring.

You would be better off in a mountainous desert region

The Ice would better preserve the zombies for months or even years if possible, while if its a moderate temperture the Zombies will decompose even quicker to the point of either:

1. Becoming Skeletons and thus threats you can take out with a baseball bat

2. Truly die

To be fair this would take longer than the classic "Boom! headshot" method but meh... safer than normal... Depending on where you are, you might be better to survive, for example if you live near a military facility (like I do) than you can probably get a more steady amount of food, Realistically a Zombie Apocalypse can be so easily nipped in the butt that in todays modern society unless you live in a Metropolis you can easily survive.

TheCountAlucard
2011-11-06, 05:26 PM
nipped in the buttNot to be one to nitpick, but it's "nipped in the bud." That's how the idiom goes - it originates from gardening terms, see.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-06, 05:29 PM
Warn all the clerics, paladins, and anyone else with abilities specifically harmful to undead. Oh, I'd also multiclass to cleric to get me some turn undead.

Calanon
2011-11-06, 05:41 PM
Not to be one to nitpick, but it's "nipped in the bud." That's how the idiom goes - it originates from gardening terms, see.

Hmm... didn't know that :smallconfused:
Thanks :smallbiggrin:

Dr.Epic
2011-11-06, 05:44 PM
I guess I would go to northern norway. Remote, few people, yet still relatively good infrastructure and not so far away. It also should be easier to get weapons than in other parts of europe because of the wild animals, so you can easily dispatch the one or two zombies that make it up there.
And come winter, the zombies get frozen solid, however I'm not sure what happens when they thaw in spring.

How would they get frozen? They're kind of dead already and don't have to worry about body temperature.

Re'ozul
2011-11-06, 05:56 PM
Make a list of all visions that are supposed to happen in the next month.
Make a list of things bound to happen in the next week.
Get a notary to validate the week-list and put it in safe deposit.
Send the month list to 20 or so government organisations and the media (one of them is bound to keep it around even if only to laugh at it).
If notified by someone outright, give them means to access safe deposit for validation of capabilities.
Once government arrives (black ops or else), go with them and cooperate to utmost capabilities.

Edog
2011-11-06, 06:00 PM
How would they get frozen? They're kind of dead already and don't have to worry about body temperature.

He meant the liquids in their bodies would freeze solid, so they couldn't move. Not sure this would work on 'old' zombies, though--how long does it take for the fluids to drain out? Will they ever?

Still, though, I support the XKCD solution :smallwink:

Dr.Epic
2011-11-06, 06:15 PM
He meant the liquids in their bodies would freeze solid, so they couldn't move. Not sure this would work on 'old' zombies, though--how long does it take for the fluids to drain out? Will they ever?

Would they even have fluids? Not to mention, I think they'd just end up braking any frozen streams of fluids. They're undead, so it's not like body fluids freezing would cause them to die and I think they'd have enough strength to just move.

Weezer
2011-11-06, 08:38 PM
Would they even have fluids? Not to mention, I think they'd just end up braking any frozen streams of fluids. They're undead, so it's not like body fluids freezing would cause them to die and I think they'd have enough strength to just move.

Unless the zombies are really, really strong I doubt they'd be able to move if all the liquid in their body froze. We are 70% water after all, and the bits that aren't mostly water are things like bones which don't aid movement. Don't forget that every cell is filled with water and the space between cells is filled with water.

Ravens_cry
2011-11-06, 09:04 PM
And come spring comes freezer burn as the water inside the cells expands and explodes the cells. If destroying the brain kills zombies, boom, you just destroyed the brain and hence the zombie.

Traab
2011-11-07, 09:22 AM
Hmm, if I was in a D&D type of universe and I knew a zombie apocalypse was coming? First off, id find as many churches that hate that sort of thing and warn them so they can prepare. Im sure there are plenty of methods for confirming my story as truth. Secondly, id specialize in heavy armor, and either a mace, or a blade. A mace would work well for crushing bones and crippling zombies, or their skulls and killing them, a sword would be good for decapitations, and removal of limbs.

I wouldnt go into a cleric class just for rebukes and such though, I mean, this is just one armegeddon out of thousands that happen in D&D from time to time, I dont want to pigeonhole myself into holy destroyer of the undead, if the next end of the world involves needing a disjunction skill to survive. Id probably go for a wand or something with the ability to either repel, or damage the undead, just for emergencies. Then I would attach myself to the biggest church of whatever deity hates the undead, and work for them until the zombie plague is done.

Emmerask
2011-11-07, 09:42 AM
Would they even have fluids? Not to mention, I think they'd just end up braking any frozen streams of fluids. They're undead, so it's not like body fluids freezing would cause them to die and I think they'd have enough strength to just move.

They still need muscles to move their bodies, if these muscles are frozen solid then there simply is no movement, if only partially frozen and enough force is applied they would simply rip their muscles in half one by on resulting in equally no movement.

Also if it is the "generic needs his brain functions still" zombie then a frozen brain pretty much means a destroyed zombie. It canīt do anything while frozen and the un/freezing process will render the brain unusable (cracks in the brain due to expansion/contraction).

If it is some kind of magical zombie on the other hand which does not need its brain or muscles to move... well then we are pretty much doomed anyway short of destroying every single cell of the zombie should not stop it.


For the first type of zombie I think Canada, Sweden, Finland etc are the best bet for survival. Low amount of population density, good Infrastructure, good hunting grounds for food, and pretty cold winters.

navar100
2011-11-07, 09:50 AM
Evaluate who among my friends and associates are "the jerk" character, the staple in all zombie movies. Plan on not having him around me when it happens.

Emmerask
2011-11-07, 09:51 AM
Is the jerk also the stupid ****** one that gets bitten and doesnīt tell anyone?
Because that one doesnīt have to come along too :smallwink:

Traab
2011-11-07, 09:56 AM
Is the jerk also the stupid ****** one that gets bitten and doesnīt tell anyone?
Because that one doesnīt have to come along too :smallwink:

Generally the secretly bitten one is a loved one of another member of the group. The only solution? Bring only single people, no relatives allowed! That way we have no emotional connection to each other and thus have no reason to hide the fact that someone is bitten.

Mastikator
2011-11-07, 12:25 PM
And come spring comes freezer burn as the water inside the cells expands and explodes the cells. If destroying the brain kills zombies, boom, you just destroyed the brain and hence the zombie.

If all the cells in the body were to burst, wouldn't that liquidate the previously frozen zombie? There'd be nothing but a skeleton covered in goo.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-07, 12:27 PM
You are going in your merry way. Every day you awake, brush your teeth, have your breakfast, drink some coffee, go to work. Each day is as normal as the day before... But you suddenly start having visions. Visions that increase in intensity. In these visions, one year from now, there is a zombie apocalypse. The signs from your dream start happening, and you come to the realization that the visions are real. Everyone else is clueless about it, but one year from now, there will be a zombie apocalypse.

You have been given an year to prepare for the coming apocalypse. How would you do it? Assume you are a regular person(maybe even yourself), with regular wealth, and regular skills. How would you prepare? Is this a campaign you would be interested in playing, and if so, in which system?

If I'm myself, my preparations consist of laying in a little extra food, some specific electronic parts, and a giant pile of ammunition. Note that in a year, I can afford a rather ridiculous pile of ammunition.

Also, are these bog standard zombies? Cause if so, I'm gonna beat it by shooting every last one of them personally.

If I played it...I dunno about the system, but I'd want to accurately model my current, diverse quantity of skills. So, probably not D&D.

Metahuman1
2011-11-07, 12:37 PM
Generally the secretly bitten one is a loved one of another member of the group. The only solution? Bring only single people, no relatives allowed! That way we have no emotional connection to each other and thus have no reason to hide the fact that someone is bitten.

Alternatively, make sure everyone is armored pretty much all the time when there not doing something that specifically requires them to be unarmored.

Then, make sure that there only able to do the things that specifically require them to be unarmored while there in a secured location where they'll have enough warning of an attack to get armored up again before getting close enough to get bitten.

And yeah, Bear attack suit sounds like a plan. :smallcool:

Tyndmyr
2011-11-07, 12:48 PM
Generally the secretly bitten one is a loved one of another member of the group. The only solution? Bring only single people, no relatives allowed! That way we have no emotional connection to each other and thus have no reason to hide the fact that someone is bitten.

No. Ever seen what happens when you have a pile of single people together, all under stress? Emotional connections happen.

Just solve this problem by not executing the bitten. Treat them(continue trying new things when they fail), and arrange the situation such that if they turn, they are not free to bite you. Isolation in a room, restraints, whatever. Any chance at life is better than none.

Also, I'd probably arrange to have a party on the last day of normalcy before it hits. The guest list would be chosen carefully.

Metahuman1
2011-11-07, 12:53 PM
No. Ever seen what happens when you have a pile of single people together, all under stress? Emotional connections happen.

Just solve this problem by not executing the bitten. Treat them(continue trying new things when they fail), and arrange the situation such that if they turn, they are not free to bite you. Isolation in a room, restraints, whatever. Any chance at life is better than none.

Also, I'd probably arrange to have a party on the last day of normalcy before it hits. The guest list would be chosen carefully.

This makes sense to me actually, and given that you've got time to prepair, you could work it out so that EVERYONE you choose to have with you to try and save has set aside for them the means to render them harmless to the group if there bitten.

Then when everything goes to hell, you show them these and tell them "Here's the deal, you will tell me of one of these things bites you. You will tell me if you even think one of them bit you, rational or not. We will check, carefully, in good light and such, and if you were in fact bitten, will try everything we can think of, but while we do you will be kept restrained and Isolated. I will not be the executioner, but I also won't allow everyone else to die by refusing to take precautions. "

Bosaxon
2011-11-07, 12:54 PM
Generally the secretly bitten one is a loved one of another member of the group. The only solution? Bring only single people, no relatives allowed! That way we have no emotional connection to each other and thus have no reason to hide the fact that someone is bitten.


Rule of my crew: Physical inspections upon return to safe zone. Bite=death. Refusal=Death. I will not allow my team to be infected due to someone's fear of death if they're going to die regardless.

Tvtyrant
2011-11-07, 01:02 PM
I would.... Cause all the countries in the world to begin mobilizing for a world war, thus ensuring that the maximum number of people are armed on the day the apocalypse breaks out.

Emmerask
2011-11-07, 01:09 PM
That would be quite a feat to accomplish:

Assume you are a regular person(maybe even yourself), with regular wealth, and regular skills.

I certainly would not know how to cause the third world war, similarly telling everyone about the impending apocalypse would most likely earn you a very quick stay in a nice room with beautifully cushioned walls :smallsmile:

brujon
2011-11-07, 02:43 PM
The point of this exercise is to see what kind of ideas people come up, when they have 1 year to prepare. Normally, when you play a doomsday zombie scenario, when you start it, **** has already hit the fan. Having one year to prepare changes things: Dramatically. (Zombies are Romero Zombies)

For instance, knowing that one year from now there is going to be a freakin' apocalypse, why on earth would i want to have a house? I'm going to sell material posessions ASAP. I'd also pick up the biggest loan i could afford at a bank, even go to money sharks and such, and generally gather as much money as i possibly could, all the while postponing payment to next year. (But i know that will be never).

I'd buy a farm at a plains type location(At least 400km from any major city), relatively big, but small enough that it can be covered by 3 teams of 3 people patrolling it. First order of business, i'd build a massive freaking wall surrounding the farm. Barbed wire on barbed wire, with pits with spikes on the bottom, towers spread out every 500m for surveillance. Next, i'd build a fort. A not so big fort, but big enough that it could stand ground against hundreds of zombies should the walls fall. Above-ground, the fort would be mostly a gym/boot-camp, with lodgings and habitations below ground in camouflaged locations, with filtered air ventilation, bunker-like structure. Armory would also be underground, and the generators would be above-ground in the fort.

Next, whilst the fort is building, i'd sign up for training in the most hardcore manner possible, i mean, 16+ hours a day of intense training regime. Firearms, weight-lifting, endurance running, hand-to-hand combat, and brush up on basic chemistry and physics. I'd also collect a relatively nice collection of books (PDF format as to save space, some ultra-important ones also in book format), and set out to recruit people that i trust to do the same. Goal here is to gather no less than 30 people, but no more than 50 people. Multiple genetic make-ups, so spanish, african, asian and middle-eastern descent would be optimal. This is so to maximize genetic variation, so that a small population can most optimally remake humanity with minimal cross-breeding.

People with varied intelectual backgrounds too, is a desired thing. Especially people with knowledge in essential areas, such as food producing, firearm maintenance and production, construction, etc...

That said, in the last weeks before the apocalypse, spread out multiple threats and early warning signs througout the perimeter surrounding the farm. Make it so that when the zombies start coming, you'll be seeing them coming. The farm needs to be self-sustainable, and the goal here is to resist for at least 5 years (More than enough time that any flesh on the zombie's body has already decomposed).

The Reverend
2011-11-07, 03:27 PM
Dang you internets list my 4 page treatise tapped out in my phone.

Traab
2011-11-07, 05:48 PM
Nice plan Bruj, Id honestly ignore the barbed wire though, as zombies wont care about it, and its likely just going to cause chunks of rotting flesh to be stuck on your walls that have to be burned or else disease will spread.

Same for the pits as you would then have to climb down there to remove bodies to avoid the smell. A straightforward wall 15-20 feet tall, and thick enough to safely walk on two abreast would withstand the pressure of thousands of zombies pressed up against it. That and the towers with overlapping fields of fire would be more than enough to take down armies of the undead.

Dont forget to include a doctor on that list of skilled professionals. You are going to want health care those 5 years.

brujon
2011-11-07, 06:40 PM
Nice plan Bruj, Id honestly ignore the barbed wire though, as zombies wont care about it, and its likely just going to cause chunks of rotting flesh to be stuck on your walls that have to be burned or else disease will spread.

Same for the pits as you would then have to climb down there to remove bodies to avoid the smell. A straightforward wall 15-20 feet tall, and thick enough to safely walk on two abreast would withstand the pressure of thousands of zombies pressed up against it. That and the towers with overlapping fields of fire would be more than enough to take down armies of the undead.

Dont forget to include a doctor on that list of skilled professionals. You are going to want health care those 5 years.

Enough barbed wire and they'll get tangled in it, unable to move. But, yes, walls need to be as tall as they can possibly be, 30ft would be ideal.

Traab
2011-11-07, 07:04 PM
Yeah but I dont think you would have any hope of finishing a 30 foot tall wall thick enough to not get toppled with ease by a zombie horde in time. I mean good lord, we are talking a rather massive amount of construction, you are referring to watchtowers every 500 meters, which to me implies walls at LEAST 1k meters on a side. Thats 984,000 feet of stone per wall if you make it 10 feet thick. 3,936,000 feet total if you make it a basic 4 wall structure.

I dont even want to try and process how large of a construction crew it would take to do construction on that scale in less than a year. And thats just getting your walls built. You are also talking about extensive underground building, the towers themselves, and whatever else you want to include. Its a neat idea, but a year is not enough time to pull it off. You would have to scale that way back to get it done in a year.

Emmerask
2011-11-07, 07:19 PM
And that does not include the construction cost side, I doubt we have that many multi millionaires in the playground, even if one would liquidize all his/her assets.

A small ocean island would be far less expensive.
Though building stone walls on it seems a bit out of the question, but you would have a whole ocean for protection and food.
Get enough fuel to operate freshwater generators and a communication station (to know whats going on) and I think you could get comfy there ^^

Krazzman
2011-11-08, 02:59 AM
And that does not include the construction cost side, I doubt we have that many multi millionaires in the playground, even if one would liquidize all his/her assets.

A small ocean island would be far less expensive.
Though building stone walls on it seems a bit out of the question, but you would have a whole ocean for protection and food.
Get enough fuel to operate freshwater generators and a communication station (to know whats going on) and I think you could get comfy there ^^

Fuel? You mean some basins, foil and cups?
For removing the salt out of the water there is an easy trick on a sunny island.

Fill the basin with water (not full) put a smaller container in the middle. Now add foil and a small stone that builds a "lower point" on the foil above the smaller container. Repeat many times. Wait. Harvest drinkable water. Repeat.

But yes, the construction of such a building would be a huge success but would take too long. And I remind you of the Walking dead, they got to a prison where there was a 3-layer fence. Enough isolated and you should never happen to find more than 200 Zs at your fence. With those 3 layers you even could afford to strike them with melee weapons.

Morghen
2011-11-08, 07:32 AM
I'd also pick up the biggest loan i could afford at a bank, even go to money sharks and such, and generally gather as much money as i possibly could, all the while postponing payment to next year. (But i know that will be never).New game idea:
You may or may not be going crazy. You owe a lot of shady people a great deal of money. Survive for five years.

Emmerask
2011-11-08, 08:13 AM
New game idea:
You may or may not be going crazy. You owe a lot of shady people a great deal of money. Survive for five years.

Yes I think no matter how many of the signs are there, there would still be enough doubt that going all out (getting as many loans as possible + selling all your stuff) is unlikely.

Which would pretty much rule out the island idea, most people donīt have 100k lying around.

if you live in an apartment above ground floor in a city and have to stay there then I guess the best idea would be to take out the stairs with a sledgehammer and sabotage the elevator. Buy a rope ladder for easy and save access.

The biggest threat for someone prepared in a city would actually be fire and not the zombies I think

drakir_nosslin
2011-11-08, 08:38 AM
I'd simply stick to my old plan, go up north to my parents. They live on a farm in a small village, no more than 100 people total, in the entire municipality there's only around 5500 inhabitants spread out over 2 650 kmē.

There's lots of farm animals around, so when the zombies start to pop up there shouldn't be too hard to gather a few and bring them to safety, and if I get really paranoid I can just buy some before the outbreak starts.

The farm itself can, and often does survive without electricity during a week or so every winter when the power lines break from snow or fallen trees and my dad lived his first 15 years without electricity at all, so he's the one I'd go to if I wanted to survive the first few years. I wouldn't try to build walls and such, just barricade the house properly, gather some guns and high-powered crossbows to take care of the few zombies that would actually find us.

My money would go to buying things that'll be hard to find or produce on our own once we're isolated. Medical supplies, metal, salt etc.

If I could I'd make sure that the entire family was there when the outbreak starts, if everyone would keep calm I do believe that we could survive the next five or ten years.

brujon
2011-11-08, 08:52 AM
And that does not include the construction cost side, I doubt we have that many multi millionaires in the playground, even if one would liquidize all his/her assets.

A small ocean island would be far less expensive.
Though building stone walls on it seems a bit out of the question, but you would have a whole ocean for protection and food.
Get enough fuel to operate freshwater generators and a communication station (to know whats going on) and I think you could get comfy there ^^

Don't forget we're talking about 30~50 people here. If all can muster haf a million, then there's already at least 15 million bucks to fund the project with. With multiple loans, loan sharks and etc... Plus whatever money you can get from other sources. Plus, if you can convince a honest-to-god multimillionaire the project is going to be funded pretty well...

The property i think should be 2km/2km - This is so there's enough land area to both have pastures for cattle and land to grow food on. 4 watch towers on 4 sides amount to 16 walls total. Plus the central construction and the cost of livestock and seeds, plus farm equipment and such. I don't think it's a stretch to think this can be funded within a year with a budget of 15 million dollars, and this is of course shooting a bit low, because you can always try and convince a couple of millionaires to help fund your project.

An island is always a neat idea, but an island is also much more expensive (if we're talking about a private isle). And much more dangerous if we're talking about a non-private isle. Remember people are going to be fleeing to islands when s*it hits the fan, so probably a lot of infected are going to get there. A nice secluded location in a plains, 400km away from major cities is better, i guess. Or you could make the fortification at a mountain plateau (harder access).

Tyndmyr
2011-11-08, 09:16 AM
And that does not include the construction cost side, I doubt we have that many multi millionaires in the playground, even if one would liquidize all his/her assets.

A small ocean island would be far less expensive.
Though building stone walls on it seems a bit out of the question, but you would have a whole ocean for protection and food.
Get enough fuel to operate freshwater generators and a communication station (to know whats going on) and I think you could get comfy there ^^

Islands that are liveable are quite expensive. That said, you could just buy a boat and stock it with stuff for the island, or secretly preposition supplies.

Me...I grew up in the country, I get all the roughing it stuff...but I hate it. City life. So, time to take over and cleanse the city. And honestly, the city is going to have the resources we really need anyhow. Manufactured goods, buildings, metals. All it costs is time and bullets.

Also, there will be no melee option. Ever. The choices are bullets and more bullets. The weight of a melee weapon is better used on more rounds. You can carry a LOT of bullets for the weight of say, a fire axe. Probably enough to get more kills than you have energy to kill with the axe.

Edit: I would not assume that random people can scrape together half a million dollars. I am extremely well paid for my age, and I couldn't(and wouldn't) do it.

Emmerask
2011-11-08, 09:29 AM
I donīt think I have anyone in my circle of friends who would stake their future on insane ramblings by me about end of the world ZOMBIES!!1111

Well there are more then enough cults out there who have followers based on end of the world scenarios so Iīm not saying there is no audience for such "ramblings"...
It would really depend if I could come up with some hard proof ie if the signs are rare enough so that a random prediction is out of the question


Islands that are liveable are quite expensive. That said, you could just buy a boat and stock it with stuff for the island, or secretly preposition supplies.

Well it depends on the area really, sure an island of the bahamas or similar would be expensive, but a small island near indonesia, africa or similar is affordable...
though there would be other dangers in that region.

Traab
2011-11-08, 09:55 AM
But even assuming you could buy that island, the point remains that anyone near a dock is going to be grabbing a boat and heading for the islands. So unless you can pull a harry potter and hide it with a fidelius, you can expect a combination of infected, scavengers, raiders, and useless people all washing up on your shore line. Good luck maintaining control.

I also wouldnt suggest pinning all your hopes on living in the middle of nowhere keeping you safe from zombie hordes. It may work, but it may not. There is no telling what makes zombies do what they do. And it would rather suck to see a stream of zombies heading your way with no wall to protect you. Also you still have to deal with the bad luck of raiders looking for supplies stumbling across you.

Narren
2011-11-08, 12:51 PM
Me...I grew up in the country, I get all the roughing it stuff...but I hate it. City life. So, time to take over and cleanse the city. And honestly, the city is going to have the resources we really need anyhow. Manufactured goods, buildings, metals. All it costs is time and bullets.

Depending on the exact circumstances of the scenario, I can see that being difficult to work out. I suppose if you have enough time to gather hundreds of thousands of bullets (I would prefer well over 1 million if I was in a very large city) and some heavy duty fortification and a place to attack from (essentially a castle to withstand siege) then maybe. But there are going to be an unknown number of X factors in there. What will the general population do? What will the military be up to? What happens if your party members start losing it? If you look at any good zombie movie, they usually get things under control until their plans get jacked up by some weird, outside factor.


Also, there will be no melee option. Ever. The choices are bullets and more bullets. The weight of a melee weapon is better used on more rounds. You can carry a LOT of bullets for the weight of say, a fire axe. Probably enough to get more kills than you have energy to kill with the axe.


Will the zombies be attracted the sound of gunshots? If so, that can be a problem. You only have so many bullets, and if you're in a city of 1 million+ residents, I don't want to take those odds. Even if you don't run out of ammo, you have to factor in reload time. And these guys don't stop coming, so you run the risk of being over run. I would definitely suggest (and acquire) a suppressor for a small caliber weapon. Probably a Ruger 10-22 with a bunch of high-cap mags, maybe a decent scope (maybe iron sites, not sure), a good barrel, and a suppressor. I would also keep a sidearm in .40 or .45 (again with a suppressor) for the human threats. But I would always keep a good melee weapon in case my primary and secondary firearms failed, were lost, or ran empty.

Tvtyrant
2011-11-08, 01:06 PM
You know you could always gather a ton of material, move to France and occupy the Maginot line segments that retain their large underground segments. No zombie is going to break into that much concrete, and you can come out to farm when you have used up your supplies. The same thing applies to large castles and WWI forts.

Narren
2011-11-08, 01:46 PM
You know you could always gather a ton of material, move to France and occupy the Maginot line segments that retain their large underground segments. No zombie is going to break into that much concrete, and you can come out to farm when you have used up your supplies. The same thing applies to large castles and WWI forts.

Most prisons across the U.S. would do the trick. The fences may not keep them out for long, and they would eventually be able to access the administrative areas, but no one is getting into the secured sections without heavy ordnance or subterfuge. Zombies usually have neither, so you only need to worry about people trying to break in, and the entire facility is already set up to watch for external threats. And many of them have interior rec yards, which means the outside area is actually inside the perimeter of the prison, surrounded by walls. The only way down there is by rooftop or helicopter, so it makes for a good garden. The only problem with living in a prison is, you know, actually accessing it.

Now that I think about it, drawing in the zombies may actually be a good thing. If they can't get to you, they're not a threat. And if your surrounded by thousands of zombies, you don't need to worry about some gang trying to get through them to occupy your new castle.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-08, 03:07 PM
Depending on the exact circumstances of the scenario, I can see that being difficult to work out. I suppose if you have enough time to gather hundreds of thousands of bullets (I would prefer well over 1 million if I was in a very large city) and some heavy duty fortification and a place to attack from (essentially a castle to withstand siege) then maybe. But there are going to be an unknown number of X factors in there. What will the general population do? What will the military be up to? What happens if your party members start losing it? If you look at any good zombie movie, they usually get things under control until their plans get jacked up by some weird, outside factor.

That's actually not that hard. I have a coupla thousand bullets around just 'cause. .22 shells will cost about 2.5 cents each, for instance, and are quite capable of downing a zombie with sufficient accuracy(ok, they're terrible on non-headshots, but against zombies, that's a fail anyhow). So, a hundred thousand bullets is $2500. A non-trivial expense...but extremely manageable compared to purchasing a private island or building a doom fortress. In a year, I could easily invest several times that into ammo(likely improving both quantity and type of ammo).


Will the zombies be attracted the sound of gunshots? If so, that can be a problem.

I would imagine so. It seems to be a consistent element of zombies. I don't see it as a problem, though.


You only have so many bullets, and if you're in a city of 1 million+ residents, I don't want to take those odds. Even if you don't run out of ammo, you have to factor in reload time. And these guys don't stop coming, so you run the risk of being over run. I would definitely suggest (and acquire) a suppressor for a small caliber weapon. Probably a Ruger 10-22 with a bunch of high-cap mags, maybe a decent scope (maybe iron sites, not sure), a good barrel, and a suppressor. I would also keep a sidearm in .40 or .45 (again with a suppressor) for the human threats. But I would always keep a good melee weapon in case my primary and secondary firearms failed, were lost, or ran empty.

Well, firstly, a city with a million residents isn't all going to be able to hear and come to my gunshots. Oh, it'll attract some, but cities are BIG. You're not going to be able to hear gunshots far away in the city. Next, there will be inevitably other sounds at some point in the city. Those will also attract zombies. In addition, many zombies can be expected to be in buildings or otherwise incapable of hearing or moving toward me. So, I can be reliably assured of attracting those zombies near to me, but beyond that, it's increasingly sketchy with distance.

This is a GOOD thing. I want to kill zombies by shooting them from an elevated, safe location. If there are giant mobs of them, so much the better. If I blow a shot, I have a better chance at hitting another one by luck. I do not want to root them out by clearing houses one at a time.

I do happen to have a 10/22 with high cap mags...but note that reload time is fairly trivial when it consists of swapping 50 round drums. Reloading the drums will be a giant pain, but if you're up high, it's no biggie. That said, the 10/22 is my secondary choice. The AR-15 is much, much better at the job.

Lastly, in the US, there are more guns than people. Thus, there is a LOT more ammo than people(and thus, far more ammo than zombies). So, you don't need to have it all in advance...just enough to secure your local area, and find more.

navar100
2011-11-08, 03:28 PM
You know you could always gather a ton of material, move to France and occupy the Maginot line segments that retain their large underground segments. No zombie is going to break into that much concrete, and you can come out to farm when you have used up your supplies. The same thing applies to large castles and WWI forts.

Someone didn't read "World War Z".
:smallbiggrin:

Granted in some cases already infected went in to hide ...

Narren
2011-11-08, 05:41 PM
That's actually not that hard. I have a coupla thousand bullets around just 'cause. .22 shells will cost about 2.5 cents each, for instance, and are quite capable of downing a zombie with sufficient accuracy(ok, they're terrible on non-headshots, but against zombies, that's a fail anyhow). So, a hundred thousand bullets is $2500. A non-trivial expense...but extremely manageable compared to purchasing a private island or building a doom fortress. In a year, I could easily invest several times that into ammo(likely improving both quantity and type of ammo).

Well, firstly, a city with a million residents isn't all going to be able to hear and come to my gunshots. Oh, it'll attract some, but cities are BIG. You're not going to be able to hear gunshots far away in the city. Next, there will be inevitably other sounds at some point in the city. Those will also attract zombies. In addition, many zombies can be expected to be in buildings or otherwise incapable of hearing or moving toward me. So, I can be reliably assured of attracting those zombies near to me, but beyond that, it's increasingly sketchy with distance.

This is a GOOD thing. I want to kill zombies by shooting them from an elevated, safe location. If there are giant mobs of them, so much the better. If I blow a shot, I have a better chance at hitting another one by luck. I do not want to root them out by clearing houses one at a time.

I do happen to have a 10/22 with high cap mags...but note that reload time is fairly trivial when it consists of swapping 50 round drums. Reloading the drums will be a giant pain, but if you're up high, it's no biggie. That said, the 10/22 is my secondary choice. The AR-15 is much, much better at the job.

Lastly, in the US, there are more guns than people. Thus, there is a LOT more ammo than people(and thus, far more ammo than zombies). So, you don't need to have it all in advance...just enough to secure your local area, and find more.

I agree that if you're in fortified position, picking off zombies, noise is a non-issue. I also agree that an AR-15 is going to do that job better than a .22. But if you're out on a supply run to pick up ammo, food, medical supplies, or anything else you need, you'll want something quiet, lightweight, and a melee back up weapon. You can easily get cornered in a situation like that, because you're really not in control.

I would prefer a .22 over a .556 because the ammo is cheaper, lighter, you can carry more, and a suppressed .22 is about as quiet as you can get. As you said, the stopping power sucks, but it won't matter when head shots are all that count. And yes, a .22 COULD bounce off of a skull, but it's rare and the next round will surely penetrate a cracked skull. The range is better on an AR-15, but I wouldn't be shooting anything more than 50 yards away unless I was in my fortified position. I would only shoot when I had to to get away. And how do those 50 round drums hold up? I've got some 30 round mags....I heard the 50 drums like to jam. Never used them, though.

Back to luring them in and picking them off....surely there's a way to do it without using ANY ammo? Maybe use live bait to lure them off of a cliff? That should thin them out, if they fall for it.

The Reverend
2011-11-09, 12:26 PM
Simplest anipti zombie defense is the knee breaker. Holes about two and a half feet deep slanted away from the presumed direction of travel hardned edges. Zomibe steps in hole foot goes forward and down body flails forward and snap, zombie that must now crawl. Put these in rings 10 feet deep in alternating patterns as your outermost defense. Using a bobcat or tractor with an auger you could make one very two minutes, harden the edge with a suitably sized ring of of pvc

Traab
2011-11-09, 12:57 PM
Back to luring them in and picking them off....surely there's a way to do it without using ANY ammo? Maybe use live bait to lure them off of a cliff? That should thin them out, if they fall for it.

In the city example, plant a loud motorcycle in the middle of your kill zone, start it up and let it roar. Then book it back to your sniper spot and wait. The noise will bring the zombies in from a good distance away. (lets face it, the ambient noise in a city is going to go way down when 97% of the population is dead or gone) and as they come shambling towards the engine, boom boom boom. When they stop showing up, you have cleared most of the mobile zombies out of a 1 mile radius of your position most likely.

TheCountAlucard
2011-11-09, 07:42 PM
Simplest anti zombie defense is the knee breaker.Disagreeing here - a zombie that crawls is actually harder to notice, and thus more dangerous. Since they're not fast zombies, there's no inherent advantage to be had in taking away their ability to walk - even a person with mobility problems can outpace them already.

Morghen
2011-11-09, 10:43 PM
Disagreeing here - a zombie that crawls is actually harder to notice, and thus more dangerous. Since they're not fast zombies, there's no inherent advantage to be had in taking away their ability to walk - even a person with mobility problems can outpace them already.You missed it.
[snip]zombie that must now crawl. [snip] Using a bobcat [snip]
Step 1: Make zombies lay down.
Step 2: ??????
Step 3: Profit!




(Step 2 is running over the zombies.)

TheCountAlucard
2011-11-10, 03:07 AM
You missed it.I missed nothing. :smallmad:

He was referring to using the bobcat to make the holes.

That, and running over the zombies would be extremely inefficient. For one, it wastes any fuel you might have, and two, it doesn't guarantee a kill.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-10, 06:28 AM
I would contact a military base in where I live. Spend the year making friends with the people there and then the day of the initial infection tell them I heard reports of zombies in that area. Then quickly wipe out the infection before it can spread.

Tvtyrant
2011-11-10, 10:13 AM
Disagreeing here - a zombie that crawls is actually harder to notice, and thus more dangerous. Since they're not fast zombies, there's no inherent advantage to be had in taking away their ability to walk - even a person with mobility problems can outpace them already.

On the contrary, you now only have to make the wall a dozen feet tall and it doesn't have to be nearly as thick since they cannot build up momentum. You have just removed their ability to slam into or climb structures.

Emmerask
2011-11-10, 10:16 AM
I donīt doubt that for a prepared person in a city it is quite easy to manage the zombies, and also that you will find more then enough ammo in a us city kill every citizen 100times+.

But the greatest danger if you are prepared for the zombies is fire especially during summer.
Without a fire department to contain it I think its not a terrible stretch of the imagination to think half the city is going to burn down.
If you are lucky enough to be in the remaining percent of intact buildings there would still be a massive amount of lethal gas produced by the fires.

The Reverend
2011-11-10, 12:03 PM
Second easiest anti zombie defense-the high tension wire metal snare hang at various height, use nice big loops, and hang them across choke points say ten feet deep. Zombies get caught in the loop, pull and pull and some valuable pieces of limb, or head we are aiming for the head, gets lopped off. Made even easier after a bit of decay happens, all wet and gooshy.

a variant is to setup high tension steel wire crisscrossing a choke point, such as an alleyway or small street or tunnel, this creates and "egg slicer" effect where the horde pushes its members thru the wires and cuts them to pieces or at least ineffectual chunks.

tHe above works well with automated noise makers, a simple garden wind mill rigged to move some tin cans with rocks in them, a wind up toy, or wind up air raid siren. Plant feces, urin, and sweaty socks to stimulate zombies nose as well as this may carry further.

ANother nice and easy defense us to set up impaling stakes in front of "knee breaker" holes in groups about where their head should fall. Making zombie defense automation a little easier.



Also we should look into using burning zombies to power our generators in a process similar to wood gasification.

Traab
2011-11-10, 03:52 PM
1)Build the worlds strongest wood chipper
2) plant it in the ground at an appropriate choke point.
3)Lure zombie swarm to chase you
4) leap over the spinning teeth
5) profit

jackattack
2011-11-10, 05:46 PM
Be careful not to overestimate the resources and influence that one person of ordinary means can bring to bear. Banks require collateral and/or down payments, construction takes time and permits, and nobody believes people who start talking about zombies rising from the grave.

Also keep in mind that once the zombie apocalypse begins, you don't necessarily have to own your place of refuge. If you know a decent place to hole up, all you really need is a truck full of supplies ready on the critical day. If the owners are still alive, they'll probably be happy enough to share quarters with someone who is so well-prepared.

If you prefer an island, pick one you like and have a boat full of supplies ready on the critical day. Come to think of it, an (abandoned?) oil rig or a lighthouse might be a good spot, too. If you have to leave your sanctuary, you are escaping into a clear medium, not a landscape full of more zombies. And you can fish for food to supplement your supplies.

Take a look at rabies distribution and epidemic projections. Small islands with small populations tend to be safer, as they can implement effective quarantines. If you know where the morgue(s) and cemeteries are, you can head off the zombie outbreak locally. Place a bunch of real or fake orders for supplies, and you might also have enough for the entire community to get by for a few months. It should only take a couple of weeks to get the community organized to patrol the shore and send out small foraging parties.

BTW, do we know the distance at which a zombie can detect a living human being? Cos if you build your fence using that as a radius, the fence only has to be strong enough to withstand bad weather.

Traab
2011-11-10, 06:41 PM
Be careful not to overestimate the resources and influence that one person of ordinary means can bring to bear. Banks require collateral and/or down payments, construction takes time and permits, and nobody believes people who start talking about zombies rising from the grave.

Also keep in mind that once the zombie apocalypse begins, you don't necessarily have to own your place of refuge. If you know a decent place to hole up, all you really need is a truck full of supplies ready on the critical day. If the owners are still alive, they'll probably be happy enough to share quarters with someone who is so well-prepared.

If you prefer an island, pick one you like and have a boat full of supplies ready on the critical day. Come to think of it, an (abandoned?) oil rig or a lighthouse might be a good spot, too. If you have to leave your sanctuary, you are escaping into a clear medium, not a landscape full of more zombies. And you can fish for food to supplement your supplies.

Take a look at rabies distribution and epidemic projections. Small islands with small populations tend to be safer, as they can implement effective quarantines. If you know where the morgue(s) and cemeteries are, you can head off the zombie outbreak locally. Place a bunch of real or fake orders for supplies, and you might also have enough for the entire community to get by for a few months. It should only take a couple of weeks to get the community organized to patrol the shore and send out small foraging parties.

BTW, do we know the distance at which a zombie can detect a living human being? Cos if you build your fence using that as a radius, the fence only has to be strong enough to withstand bad weather.

Most of the info ive come across says line of sight, and hearing range. So if you could wander by and spot people, so could a zombie, if while wandering by you might hear a gun shot, or machinery, or just loud chatter, so would a zombie. Its an interesting idea, but when you consider the fact that you will likely need a fairly significant living space to do things like grow crops or just live in, and depending on the sheer distance you can hear movement from, it probably wouldnt work out very well. The length that would have to be walled off would probably be prohibitive.

jackattack
2011-11-10, 07:00 PM
That's more a response to the Great Wall of China strategy. Given a year, title to the land, and funds, a wall around a one-mile radius can easily be scaled back to a fence -- iff the fence is far enough away that the zombies don't have a reason to break through it.

And I'm a bit fuzzy on the goal, here. Are we trying to survive for one year (assuming that the rest of humanity will put down the zombies in that time), survive for five years (assuming that 95% of the zombies will have rotted away by then), are we trying to become subsistence farmers right away (so that we can live out the rest of our normal lifespans), or are we trying to recreate society as it was before (assuming a certain number of sane survivors)?

Traab
2011-11-10, 07:20 PM
That's more a response to the Great Wall of China strategy. Given a year, title to the land, and funds, a wall around a one-mile radius can easily be scaled back to a fence -- iff the fence is far enough away that the zombies don't have a reason to break through it.

And I'm a bit fuzzy on the goal, here. Are we trying to survive for one year (assuming that the rest of humanity will put down the zombies in that time), survive for five years (assuming that 95% of the zombies will have rotted away by then), are we trying to become subsistence farmers right away (so that we can live out the rest of our normal lifespans), or are we trying to recreate society as it was before (assuming a certain number of sane survivors)?

Id rather work on being able to survive long term than to plan for a short stay. Its always better to overdo it than to under do it in survival situations. So plan to have to survive for the rest of your natural life span, so when the army shows up 6 weeks later you can give a sigh of relief and offer them some dinner. :smallsmile:

Morghen
2011-11-11, 10:38 AM
Purchase lots of seeds of plants that don't require heavy watering. (beans, tomatoes, squash, melons, okra)
Learn how to can goods.
Purchase lots of canning supplies.
Purchase two hens for each person you plan to bring with you. (An egg-producing variety will give you 200+ eggs/year for 5-7 years.)
Purchase 1 rooster for every 25 chickens. Also, purchase a couple of big hen-houses, and a ton of chicken wire to make an enclosure for said chickens.
Purchase a huge 'ol mess of chicken feed.
Do all the gun-buying that people were talking about in previous pages.





Find a big stadium that still uses grass instead of some synthetic surface.
Get a job there.
Get a map of the place.
Get keys to everything.
Weld all the doors. Block all the big entryways with barricades.
Eat nachos until the military shows up.

Traab
2011-11-11, 11:17 AM
Purchase lots of seeds of plants that don't require heavy watering. (beans, tomatoes, squash, melons, okra)
Learn how to can goods.
Purchase lots of canning supplies.
Purchase two hens for each person you plan to bring with you. (An egg-producing variety will give you 200+ eggs/year for 5-7 years.)
Purchase 1 rooster for every 25 chickens. Also, purchase a couple of big hen-houses, and a ton of chicken wire to make an enclosure for said chickens.
Purchase a huge 'ol mess of chicken feed.
Do all the gun-buying that people were talking about in previous pages.


That stadium thing might be a bad idea. Arent they often used as emergency shelters?


Find a big stadium that still uses grass instead of some synthetic surface.
Get a job there.
Get a map of the place.
Get keys to everything.
Weld all the doors. Block all the big entryways with barricades.
Eat nachos until the military shows up.


That stadium thing might be a bad idea. Arent they often used as emergency shelters? The army would show up fast, with lots of injured survivors.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-11, 11:21 AM
And how do those 50 round drums hold up? I've got some 30 round mags....I heard the 50 drums like to jam. Never used them, though.

Honestly, haven't used it enough yet to be able to accurately judge it. So far, so good, but that might change with time.

I do have the 100 round mag as well for the AR, so it's kind of a toss-up there. I feel like even in a tight scrape, an AR with a huge mag can solve some pretty notable swarming problems. I can go several hundred rounds before availability of loaded mags becomes an issue, so I figure that say, walking dead levels of zombies would be no threat at all.


I donīt doubt that for a prepared person in a city it is quite easy to manage the zombies, and also that you will find more then enough ammo in a us city kill every citizen 100times+.

But the greatest danger if you are prepared for the zombies is fire especially during summer.
Without a fire department to contain it I think its not a terrible stretch of the imagination to think half the city is going to burn down.
If you are lucky enough to be in the remaining percent of intact buildings there would still be a massive amount of lethal gas produced by the fires.

Lack of services and facilities is a real problem. A large open area carved out around where you are is probably desirable for a living place. So, close to a road or better yet, a crossroads of large freeways. That also has a number of additional benefits like visibility and possible reinforcements from humans joining you.

But that's all post-zed stuff. I'm not gonna have the funds or inclination to build a doom fortress beforehand. There'll be a LOT more empty space afterward.

The_Admiral
2011-11-11, 11:24 AM
Tropical weather FTW i don't have to do anything:smallbiggrin:

Krazzman
2011-11-11, 11:51 AM
Ok,

a matter of fact is, that this is a new Frontier. We don't know which Zombies we will face.

Slow Brainless Zombies? aka Hollywood Zombie(Resident Evil)
Running Zombies? aka New Age Predator Zombie(Dawn of the dead [the new ****ty version])
Smart Zombies? (Lolwut? But the "flu" might only cause a certain amount of special "hunger"[ref.: AFMBE Rev Core Introduction Story])
Voodoo Zombie? N'zumbe (not really bad cause they are still "human" just lost their will)
Animalistic Zombies? (Resident Evil: Crows)

This tends to equally other methods of survival. Running and Smart Zombies would most likely be able to climb. And most Animals are predators now...imagine the outcome if they would be undead....

The next thing we should be aware of is their periphal senses. Do they see? Do they smell? Do they Feel? (Feel the living) Do they listen?

The Walking dead features the smelling and listeing.
Highschool of the dead most likely only the listening.
Resident Evil seem to sense you.
And the Running one seems to be able to see, sense, hear and smell you.

As mentioned before: you've got a list what to do.

Since you don't want to hunt them stay with this list:

Learn your ****! Better to know too much then to know less.
Buy Survival Guides (Yes all that are needed)
get in shape
stay in shape
take care of your weaponry
your weaponry should consist of multi functional tool (like a machete or toolaxe)
your ranged weapon should be a silent one
take care of other gear (earplugs, purification devices etc)
don't care how you look (camouflage) be stealthy.
don't be heavy loaded (you need to endure long strides with your gear)
have some entertainment with you (you'll need it.)
for starters leave the city (you can later farm them like described)
even if staying in the wild be ready to quickly run away.
don't do something reckless
no booze! no not even while being save!
yes still no booze! it leads to stupid ideas.
remember you need at least: a leader, a councellor, a planner, someone with people skills, someone entertaining.
you should avoid: clumsy people, jerks, dumb people, naive people and should avoid someone "flipped".
stay away from other survivors (they could be flipped/want your girl for lower urges/want your stuff)
don't trust the military. (if it comes from them: bad, if not don't hope they get all of the Z's killed)
don't be a jerk yourself. always calculate risk but don't be sentimental about a bitten one
bitten ones can sacrifice/(seppuku to the head) themselves. might be cruel but effective.


Summerizing, watch your folks, watch other folks, have your gear ready, plan long term, don't lay hope in the hands of others.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-11, 12:00 PM
If I get bitten, I'm not gonna suicide. I'm gonna go take as many with me as possible. What are they gonna do to me...bite me? kill me? May as well go out with a bang.

Traab
2011-11-11, 12:23 PM
If I get bitten, I'm not gonna suicide. I'm gonna go take as many with me as possible. What are they gonna do to me...bite me? kill me? May as well go out with a bang.

Gonna do what whats his face did in resident evil 3 movie? Blow up a tanker truck after getting as many zombies as possible surrounding it? Get a bandoleer or two of grenades similar to what hellboy did in his first film. Yank a pullcord, they all blow up really close together. But yeah, if I did get bitten id probably do the same. Id be like, "Gimmie a gun and as many rounds as you can spare" then do a judge dredd style "long walk" and take out as many as I can before saving the last round for myself. If I can take down even just a couple before its too late, thats that many less zombies out there to go up against the survivors.

The Reverend
2011-11-11, 02:16 PM
If they are dead and the zombification process doesn't preserve them somehow and they aren't in a desert or frozen area then a zombie will be more or less incapable of movement after 14-21 days. At that point maggots and rot will have rendered them incapable of keeping their bones from shoving thru the rotten flesh.

Traab
2011-11-11, 03:00 PM
If they are dead and the zombification process doesn't preserve them somehow and they aren't in a desert or frozen area then a zombie will be more or less incapable of movement after 14-21 days. At that point maggots and rot will have rendered them incapable of keeping their bones from shoving thru the rotten flesh.

That depends on type of zombie too. In that damn book, they claim zombies rot extra slow because the virus in them doesnt allow all that flesh destroying bacteria and such to dissolve them. They still rot, its just greatly slowed down, hence the whole 5 year mark. Its more of an average since it greatly varies by location. A warm swamp roaming zombie will rot a lot faster than one walking through an arid cool tundra. So I still say, just in case, prepare for long term survival. Even if the zombies only last a month, thats just for the initial surge. As survivors get picked off for one reason or another, they have their month of roaming, and so on.

Mnemnosyne
2011-11-11, 03:44 PM
If I could get a whole bunch of people to invest, like some are suggesting, thus netting me a significant amount of money to work with, I would invest not in an island but in the ultimate, totally zombie-proof fortress of total protection.

A zeppelin.

A zeppelin designed and built with modern technology could easily carry several dozen people and sufficient supplies to keep them alive for an extended period of time. I'm not completely certain on all the specifics, but I believe plants could be grown inside the gas envelope in a special area, with clear film on the top side to allow sunlight through. This onboard farm would provide a considerable amount of the necessary food. The outer skin of the zeppelin would also be partially covered by photovoltaic cells, making the most of solar power during the day to power my electric motors for movement, as well as any onboard luxuries and comforts like computers.

Since a zeppelin is totally invulnerable to zombies, my only concern with dealing with them would be when I need to lower a supply-retrieval party to the ground, and checking them for infection when they return. Mobility means being able to go to the supplies rather than having to make long, exposed journeys through zombie-infested regions to pick up additional supplies.

Of course, if I couldn't get enough people to invest to manage that level of funding, then remote mountain monasteries and the like would probably be my second best bet. Given how distant some of those places are from population centers, and how self-sufficient they're already designed to be, either joining one or building my own before the outbreak happens would probably be a very good bet.

The Reverend
2011-11-11, 04:02 PM
I love the zepplin idea. Modern zepplins actually could carry hundreds of tons of cargo. The only problem is bad weather. In pretty sure its a major problem with zepplins and either you would have to be able to go over the storm, flight ceiling of 80k feet or land without an issue.

Combine zepplin and train or zepplin and ship and I think you have a winning combo. Maybe with an oil platform or mountain hideout to comeback to.

Traab
2011-11-11, 04:49 PM
I love the zepplin idea. Modern zepplins actually could carry hundreds of tons of cargo. The only problem is bad weather. In pretty sure its a major problem with zepplins and either you would have to be able to go over the storm, flight ceiling of 80k feet or land without an issue.

Combine zepplin and train or zepplin and ship and I think you have a winning combo. Maybe with an oil platform or mountain hideout to comeback to.

Perhaps adjust for water landing capability and hover nearby lakes? That way when a storm hits, you can land on the surface of a body of water and be pretty damn safe from zombie swarms. Just post a lookout for raider parties who spotted you coming in for a landing.

The Reverend
2011-11-11, 05:18 PM
Design the zepplin so the lifting bodies become pontoons when you set down and set anchors!!

Narren
2011-11-11, 07:36 PM
Running Zombies? aka New Age Predator Zombie(Dawn of the dead [the new ****ty version])


You know, I actually liked the remake more than the original. I LOVED the original Night of the Living Dead. I really feel like every one of his movies has gone downhill since.

Krazzman
2011-11-15, 04:47 AM
You know, I actually liked the remake more than the original. I LOVED the original Night of the Living Dead. I really feel like every one of his movies has gone downhill since.

I liked the movie also but it was more of a, yeah Captn America Zombies...

The problem with the movie only came after watching it the 3rd time... why the hell can all those zombies run like hell and do parqour and ****...but can't friggin climb? (The reason I like Left4Dead zombies...these buggers can climb...) As a movie I liked DotD but can't stand the zombies (might came out wrong).

Ravens_cry
2011-11-15, 05:09 PM
The trouble is convincing anyone to help you if it is a Romero "and the graves were opened" scenario. Unlike disease or chemical zombies, there is no patient zero or chemical agent to trace and provide as evidence before its anywhre near Apocalypse levels.
You just sound like another sandwich board looney, the kind of person even conspiracy theorists avoid.

eulmanis12
2011-11-15, 06:29 PM
Eric's 19 step Zombie survival plan

Step 1 Aquire Shotgun 12 guage gas/pump combination
Step 2 Aquire Handgun Colt .45 model 1911
Step 3 Aquire Rifle M1 Carbine, (ammo is available easily and the gun is still manufactured)
Step 4 Sharpen Utility knife
Step 5 Aquire Backhoe
Step 6 Dig 6' wide by 10' deep trench around house (I live in an area where this is feasible)
Step 7 buy lots of foods from this list
Granola: (preferably with honey as it has be scientificly proven that honey does not ever go bad, ever)
Beef Jerky, smoked
Salted nuts
MRE's (local surplus store)
Step 8 set up as many open water drums as possible outside home (but inside perimiter)
Step 9 at least 18 gallons of iondine (for water purification)
Step 10 buy animal calls for local animals, (in case of a long time needing to survive. Food that walks to you is good)
Step 11 Buy another dog, (Preferibly another rotweiler, possibly a husky or pit bull.
Step 12 train said dogs as attack dogs/ hunting dogs. (note 11 and twelve can be skipped if you already own similar dogs)
Reasoning behind 11 and twelve. Humans are untrustworthy, unreliable, and easily frightened. Dogs are loyal unto death and can detect danger much better than any posted lookout. they also are easier to provide food for than humans and can eat food that has gone bad without getting sick and so prevent food from going to waste.
Step 13, aquire comfortable chair if you do not already own one
step 14, fill bottom foot of trench with barbed wire.
Step 15, move all supplies to second floor or attic of house
Step 16 aquire good ladder
step 17 destroy stairs, replace with above mentioned ladder, do not attach in place.
Step 18 create ring of barbed wire around outside and inside of perimier at approximently shin height. hang tin cans with rocks inside at intervals along wire.
Step 19 ensure that you have no less than 2000 rounds of ammo for each of your firearms

You are now ready to face a zombie apocolipse

as you can see I have given this quite a bit of thought.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-16, 08:53 AM
Dogs are loyal unto death and can detect danger much better than any posted lookout. they also are easier to provide food for than humans and can eat food that has gone bad without getting sick and so prevent food from going to waste.

I assure you, feed a dog bad food, and he can indeed get sick. Some of them don't even require the food to be bad to puke on your carpet.

Emmerask
2011-11-16, 11:55 AM
Eric's 19 step Zombie survival plan

Step 1 Aquire Shotgun 12 guage gas/pump combination
Step 2 Aquire Handgun Colt .45 model 1911
Step 3 Aquire Rifle M1 Carbine, (ammo is available easily and the gun is still manufactured)
Step 4 Sharpen Utility knife
Step 5 Aquire Backhoe
Step 6 Dig 6' wide by 10' deep trench around house (I live in an area where this is feasible)
Step 7 buy lots of foods from this list
Granola: (preferably with honey as it has be scientificly proven that honey does not ever go bad, ever)
Beef Jerky, smoked
Salted nuts
MRE's (local surplus store)
Step 8 set up as many open water drums as possible outside home (but inside perimiter)
Step 9 at least 18 gallons of iondine (for water purification)
Step 10 buy animal calls for local animals, (in case of a long time needing to survive. Food that walks to you is good)
Step 11 Buy another dog, (Preferibly another rotweiler, possibly a husky or pit bull.
Step 12 train said dogs as attack dogs/ hunting dogs. (note 11 and twelve can be skipped if you already own similar dogs)
Reasoning behind 11 and twelve. Humans are untrustworthy, unreliable, and easily frightened. Dogs are loyal unto death and can detect danger much better than any posted lookout. they also are easier to provide food for than humans and can eat food that has gone bad without getting sick and so prevent food from going to waste.
Step 13, aquire comfortable chair if you do not already own one
step 14, fill bottom foot of trench with barbed wire.
Step 15, move all supplies to second floor or attic of house
Step 16 aquire good ladder
step 17 destroy stairs, replace with above mentioned ladder, do not attach in place.
Step 18 create ring of barbed wire around outside and inside of perimier at approximently shin height. hang tin cans with rocks inside at intervals along wire.
Step 19 ensure that you have no less than 2000 rounds of ammo for each of your firearms

You are now ready to face a zombie apocolipse

as you can see I have given this quite a bit of thought.

Only thing I see missing is a plan for winter, you either have a generator and need tons of fuel or build a furnace which requires you to stock up on wood, otherwise you would freeze to death first winter without electricity or gas.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-16, 12:38 PM
How do you destroy the stairs? This is advice I've seen before and its always puzzled me as the stairs in most houses aren't something that you can easily or practically destroy and replace with a ladder

Emmerask
2011-11-16, 12:54 PM
Usually, concrete steps are set on their own foundation and not on the same slab as the house foundation. If they are, removal is easy. If they are part of the house's original slab, removal is a bit more difficult, but still not impossible.
In the first case a normal sledge hammer would suffice otherwise rent a jackhammer.

It really is not as hard as one might think.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-16, 02:19 PM
Usually, concrete steps are set on their own foundation and not on the same slab as the house foundation. If they are, removal is easy. If they are part of the house's original slab, removal is a bit more difficult, but still not impossible.
In the first case a normal sledge hammer would suffice otherwise rent a jackhammer.

It really is not as hard as one might think.

wait, which steps are we talking about? Inside or outside?

Tyndmyr
2011-11-16, 02:25 PM
I like my stairs. I feel like anywhere I have to live, I'll want stairs to transport things inside and out.

eulmanis12
2011-11-16, 05:42 PM
I assure you, feed a dog bad food, and he can indeed get sick. Some of them don't even require the food to be bad to puke on your carpet.

gone bad is relative, yes there is a point at which not even a dog can eat said food, what I meant is that a dog can eat food that would make a human sick without any real danger to themselves. we are talking about an animal that eats its own feces and drinks from the toilet after all. ( I love my dog, I feed it well, it does not feed itself well.)
I've only ever seen a dog puke when it has eaten soap, or had worms.

Emmerask
2011-11-16, 07:15 PM
wait, which steps are we talking about? Inside or outside?

Doesnīt really matter cause both are equally "easy" to destroy


I like my stairs. I feel like anywhere I have to live, I'll want stairs to transport things inside and out.

Sure stairs are pretty nice, though if you are truly prepared you should not need to transport anything inside, so the only thing the stairs are good for would be to allow easy access for others including zombies, which is something you should try to make more difficult :smallwink:

And a rope ladder is not that hard to climb even if you have some weight on your back like a shotgun.

Narren
2011-11-16, 07:37 PM
Doesnīt really matter cause both are equally "easy" to destroy



Sure stairs are pretty nice, though if you are truly prepared you should not need to transport anything inside, so the only thing the stairs are good for would be to allow easy access for others including zombies, which is something you should try to make more difficult :smallwink:

And a rope ladder is not that hard to climb even if you have some weight on your back like a shotgun.

How long is your food and ammo going to hold out? You'll have to leave eventually unless you built a completely self-sufficient compound.

eulmanis12
2011-11-16, 08:56 PM
the stairs provide easy access to the second floor for zombies, a ladder can just be pulled up during an attack making it that much harder for them to reach you. An attic, with the folding stairs is the best because then there is no where for the zombies to even climb in.

as for food, I'm figuring a 5 year supply of MRE's is a good starting point. Depending on where you live, animal calls and firearms can supply a bit of fresher food every once in a while. Indoor gardening, or oudoor depending on the sized of your perimeter makes a good supplement too. For comfort one might wish to rig up a generator, in order to keep it running without gas use the following method, (this is actualy doable, I have done it once and seen it done many times).

Step 1, get a gas powered generator.
Step 2, get two steel barrels, one should fit inside the other with plenty of room to spare, the smaller one should be able to be sealed.
Step 3 cut 2 small holes in top of small drum and seal all parts but the holes (they should be about 2 inch diameter).
Step 4 Run pipe from one of the holes to the gas cap of the generator, ensure airtight seal.
Step five, fill bottom 3rd of small barrel with strips of wood and woodchips/sticks.
Step 5 plug other hole
Step 6 build fire in outer drum
Step 7 Wait 30 minutes
Step 8 Start generator. It will run on the gas that comes out of the wood inside the smaller drum, no gasoline nescesary.

You now have a stable supply of electricity, if you live near a forest. This method can work on cars, generators, lawnmowers, basicly anything powered by gasoline. It is called a wood-gas generator, look it up.

Lord Noble
2011-11-16, 10:29 PM
ok i have a question for, you have a family a wife two kids a boy and a girl one of then is 13 the other is 3, the 13 is a smart kid active plays soccer and such, likes to run, not super strong just regular, your wife is smart but likes make up and dresses but has no particular skill that would help you. ad then the 3 year old is just a 3 year old what do you do, do you tell them hide them kill them so they wont have to almost die in a zombie apocalypse.......now if my dad were to tell me id laugh and not really care so what would you do?

Emmerask
2011-11-16, 10:33 PM
Its family, of course I would try my best to keep them safe.

eulmanis12
2011-11-17, 08:02 AM
ok i have a question for, you have a family a wife two kids a boy and a girl one of then is 13 the other is 3, the 13 is a smart kid active plays soccer and such, likes to run, not super strong just regular, your wife is smart but likes make up and dresses but has no particular skill that would help you. ad then the 3 year old is just a 3 year old what do you do, do you tell them hide them kill them so they wont have to almost die in a zombie apocalypse.......now if my dad were to tell me id laugh and not really care so what would you do?

(insert joke about being better off without the wife)

Yes I would protect my family. I am however capable of making the tough decisions. One of them gets bitten and I would kill the bitten one. They're better off that way. By the same token if I get bitten I'd expect them to do the same for me.

This is a moot point for me at least, (not married, no kids)
Depending on the situation I may have close friends sheltering with me, but only the ones I trust the most. I trust very few people.

Narren
2011-11-17, 05:29 PM
the stairs provide easy access to the second floor for zombies, a ladder can just be pulled up during an attack making it that much harder for them to reach you. An attic, with the folding stairs is the best because then there is no where for the zombies to even climb in.

as for food, I'm figuring a 5 year supply of MRE's is a good starting point. Depending on where you live, animal calls and firearms can supply a bit of fresher food every once in a while. Indoor gardening, or oudoor depending on the sized of your perimeter makes a good supplement too. For comfort one might wish to rig up a generator, in order to keep it running without gas use the following method, (this is actualy doable, I have done it once and seen it done many times).

Step 1, get a gas powered generator.
Step 2, get two steel barrels, one should fit inside the other with plenty of room to spare, the smaller one should be able to be sealed.
Step 3 cut 2 small holes in top of small drum and seal all parts but the holes (they should be about 2 inch diameter).
Step 4 Run pipe from one of the holes to the gas cap of the generator, ensure airtight seal.
Step five, fill bottom 3rd of small barrel with strips of wood and woodchips/sticks.
Step 5 plug other hole
Step 6 build fire in outer drum
Step 7 Wait 30 minutes
Step 8 Start generator. It will run on the gas that comes out of the wood inside the smaller drum, no gasoline nescesary.

You now have a stable supply of electricity, if you live near a forest. This method can work on cars, generators, lawnmowers, basicly anything powered by gasoline. It is called a wood-gas generator, look it up.

A quick google search tells me that a 5 year supply of MRE's will cost well over $18,000. Do you have that laying around?

Also, your location matters a great deal. I imagine hunting, gardening, and gathering wood would be problematic if you're ANYWHERE near a town or city. And depending on the zombies, they might realize where you are and swarm your location. Even if they can't reach you, you're stuck in your hidey hole.

And though you may not trust people, trying to live out the apocalypse alone is a train ticket to crazy town.
(edit - never mind, I missed the part where you said you might have a few people hole up with you)

Morghen
2011-11-17, 11:38 PM
Step 6 Dig 6' wide by 10' deep trench around house (I live in an area where this is feasible)
...
Step 10 buy animal calls for local animals, (in case of a long time needing to survive. Food that walks to you is good)

as you can see I have given this quite a bit of thought.
Oh?

your wife is smart but likes make up and dresses but has no particular skill that would help you.Because this is a standard day for all the dudes you know:
http://cdn.wg.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/bear-grylls-zebra.jpg

The Succubus
2011-11-18, 10:14 AM
There are a few things several people have overlooked in this thread.

1) Guns

Seriously, people have been putting far too much over reliance on firearms and the prevelance of bullets. Bullets are a finite commodity and there's every chance your little survival group will be murdered by another little survival group if they think you have an ammo cache. Case in point - the typical Fallout 3 player blowing away bandits and stealing their gear.

Crossbows are a considerably better weapon. Silent, resuable ammo and many modern ones have a repeater function. Bows can also be useful - it only took me about 4 weeks of practice before I reached a standard where I could nail a zombie head from 15-20m. Crafting a bow, while not easy, is a damn sight easier than crafting a gun and bullets.

2) Melee weapons

It's all very well trying to keep a single zombie at range but if there's several, or God forbid, you have to explore and enclosed space like a house, a gun is a very bad idea. Using a gun in an enclosed space repeatedly will mess up your hearing in a very short space of time (speaking as an audiologist) and being able to hear *clearly* what is going on nearby is critical if you want to survive. Like it or not, there will come a time when you will have to resort to melee but I would do so only to escape, never for attack. A weapon grade katana or wakizashi (NOT a display one from a shop, I guarantee the blade will snap before you're halfway through your first zombie) is a good choice, a solid steel crowbar is also good and useful.

3) Time off!

Seriously, much as you may be excited by the idea of becoming a woodsman and survivalist and a weapons master, by the end of the second month, you will be on the verge of despair if you don't prepare accordingly. Make sure you have books, music, games - keep yourself entertained and educated as well as alive. Survival of the spirit is just as important as survival of the flesh. Maybe a good time to pack a set of D&D books and some dice....:smallbiggrin:

Traab
2011-11-18, 10:30 AM
There are a few things several people have overlooked in this thread.

1) Guns

Seriously, people have been putting far too much over reliance on firearms and the prevelance of bullets. Bullets are a finite commodity and there's every chance your little survival group will be murdered by another little survival group if they think you have an ammo cache. Case in point - the typical Fallout 3 player blowing away bandits and stealing their gear.

Crossbows are a considerably better weapon. Silent, resuable ammo and many modern ones have a repeater function. Bows can also be useful - it only took me about 4 weeks of practice before I reached a standard where I could nail a zombie head from 15-20m. Crafting a bow, while not easy, is a damn sight easier than crafting a gun and bullets.

2) Melee weapons

It's all very well trying to keep a single zombie at range but if there's several, or God forbid, you have to explore and enclosed space like a house, a gun is a very bad idea. Using a gun in an enclosed space repeatedly will mess up your hearing in a very short space of time (speaking as an audiologist) and being able to hear *clearly* what is going on nearby is critical if you want to survive. Like it or not, there will come a time when you will have to resort to melee but I would do so only to escape, never for attack. A weapon grade katana or wakizashi (NOT a display one from a shop, I guarantee the blade will snap before you're halfway through your first zombie) is a good choice, a solid steel crowbar is also good and useful.

3) Time off!

Seriously, much as you may be excited by the idea of becoming a woodsman and survivalist and a weapons master, by the end of the second month, you will be on the verge of despair if you don't prepare accordingly. Make sure you have books, music, games - keep yourself entertained and educated as well as alive. Survival of the spirit is just as important as survival of the flesh. Maybe a good time to pack a set of D&D books and some dice....:smallbiggrin:

Yeah, a crossbow is a nice silent reusable weapon. Except you have to go down to where the zombie got shot to retrieve your ammo. Not a problem taking care of single zombies here and there, or hunting for food, but not always an option. And good luck making decent replacement ammo. Yeah itll be easier than crafting bullets, but easier does not mean easy. Especially since high accuracy is VERY important when zombie hunting. The brain is a tiny target relative to say, the vital area on a deer.

Melee weapons are honestly a given, though carrying a sword around is a waste of space and extra weight. Carry an axe or a hammer, or something that is multi use. Something that can break skulls and be used as a tool around your shelter. An axe can kill zombies, or be used to chop firewood. A sword can be used to kill zombies, and take up space.

I agree with the time thing. One of my plans also involves snagging a portable dvd player if I have a permanent base to work with, and robbing a costco store of its batteries. At least then ill have movies to watch. Similar thing with books. Once again, assuming I have prep time before the zombies show up, id make sure I have books on everything from survival guides to fantasy novels so I can read for pleasure or learning. You cant spend your whole life fighting zombies or sitting around waiting to fight zombies, you need some R&R as well.

Krazzman
2011-11-18, 11:46 AM
Melee weapons are honestly a given, though carrying a sword around is a waste of space and extra weight. Carry an axe or a hammer, or something that is multi use. Something that can break skulls and be used as a tool around your shelter. An axe can kill zombies, or be used to chop firewood. A sword can be used to kill zombies, and take up space.


You sir, would like to have a Machete! It's a multifunctional tool, a nice sharp edge, an integrated saw, reliable and the most important fact: not as heavy as an friggin handaxe (at least mine is not).

For people in germany: they are avaible to you too. It's easy to get, all you need is a copy of your ID-Card and then order them (needs about 2 weeks?). Kurkis, Machetes, even guns(those pellet shooting ones, not softairs) and crossbows are avaible. If you are now interested: google "Bundeswehr Shop".

They have nearly everything, camouflage gear, official gear etc. their backpacks, boots, clothing and so on is the stuff our "military" "force" uses. Their bedrolls are superb, especially the one in which you can still run.

Our momentary survival gear is...jeah limited to 1 machete, 2 handaxes, 1 2-hand-axe, bedrolls, iso-mattresses and a bow... we have a few things to stock up...

Tyndmyr
2011-11-18, 01:05 PM
There are a few things several people have overlooked in this thread.

1) Guns

Seriously, people have been putting far too much over reliance on firearms and the prevelance of bullets. Bullets are a finite commodity and there's every chance your little survival group will be murdered by another little survival group if they think you have an ammo cache. Case in point - the typical Fallout 3 player blowing away bandits and stealing their gear.

Crossbows are a considerably better weapon. Silent, resuable ammo and many modern ones have a repeater function. Bows can also be useful - it only took me about 4 weeks of practice before I reached a standard where I could nail a zombie head from 15-20m. Crafting a bow, while not easy, is a damn sight easier than crafting a gun and bullets.

Crossbow bolts are expensive. So are arrow shafts. Both of these break. I am an excellent archer and would generally pick a bow over a gun on pure preference, but it's a fairly costly hobby. A fairly inexpensive shaft will run you about $3, a bit more for fletching(I fletch my own, but still, it's a lil bit), and then you need to tip it, which'll probably run you $5 each for fairly inexpensive ones. Note that a lot of heads are not fantastic at going through skulls and the like, so this is still very optimistic.

You're looking at something like $9 a shot, not counting bow/crossbow purchase and upkeep(which is roughly similar to that of a firearm). 22 rounds are 2.5-3 cents a shot. There is no way on earth you will get that kind of reuse out of them before they start breaking.

I have a burn rate of something like two shafts a session when I do dagorhir.

Note also that reclaiming them means going into what may be a dangerous area, and may expose you to infection.


2) Melee weapons

It's all very well trying to keep a single zombie at range but if there's several, or God forbid, you have to explore and enclosed space like a house, a gun is a very bad idea. Using a gun in an enclosed space repeatedly will mess up your hearing in a very short space of time (speaking as an audiologist) and being able to hear *clearly* what is going on nearby is critical if you want to survive. Like it or not, there will come a time when you will have to resort to melee but I would do so only to escape, never for attack. A weapon grade katana or wakizashi (NOT a display one from a shop, I guarantee the blade will snap before you're halfway through your first zombie) is a good choice, a solid steel crowbar is also good and useful.

Bashing through peoples heads is difficult. Burns a LOT of energy.

The quantity of ammo you could purchase for the price of even a crowbar is going to be significantly greater than just about any person can reasonably hope to smash. And melee is inherently dangerous. Use ranged weapons for everything you can.

The time off advice is good, tho.

Edit: If you're worried about your hearing, there's a number of solutions. First and foremost is reduced sound ammo and firearms. Legality varies based on jurisdiction, but silencers are remarkably popular and available in europe, and subsonic rounds exist basically everywhere.

eulmanis12
2011-11-18, 01:54 PM
a good melee weapon is advisable, if you purchased a WWII era rifle,( which is what I'd suggest as they still make ammo for the Garand, and the M1 carbine and Springfield are still in production for collectors), then simply studying the use of the rifle itself as a melee weapon is probably your best bet. During an attack you are already carrying your rifle, you don't need to draw a new weapon, and a rifle butt to the head will do a decent job of cracking/breaking the skull. Bayonets are also usefull.

As a backup to the rifle itself a hatchet (carried on the belt) is your best bet, its usefullness outside of combat is second only to the utility knife (which you should also be carrying), and it will easily crush/chop through a skull. Yes melee is tiring but that just means its not your first choice. It is your failsafe, if your gun jams or ammo runs out, or you're at too short of a range to shoot, its nice to have a plan B.

Crossbow/bow, silent, can make new ammo. those are the benefits. the downsides: Difficult to reload quickly, more difficult to aim than a gun, more succeptable to a firearm to weather, cannot be carried for long distances strung. Cannot be carried for long distances while ready to fire. Bulkier than guns. ammo weighs more and takes up more space than bullets. Accuracy is effected more by wind and rain than guns. If a gun jams you can take it apart and fix it. If a bow snaps or the string breaks, you're out of luck. There is a reason the gun replaced the bow. If bows were better you can bet that the military would still use them. I'm not saying that a bow is not an option, If you have an archer for a long time and are very proficent in the use of your bow, then by all means use it. But if you are not an archer, a gun is probably a better choice, it is easier to learn to use a firearm than a bow.

cost of equipment. If I knew that a zombie apocalypse was fast approaching I would be willing to spend more money on preparing than I would on something else. If I have to take out loans, even with high interest rates, in order to afford the gear than fine, all of my debt will just be worthless paper in a year's time. The people I owe the money to will probably be zombies anyway. Sell the car, use up the retirement fund, etc. none of it will do me any good once I'm under siege by a horde of zombies. Even if the zombie apocolipse ends, and there are other suvivors, at least 99% of the population will have died, who will come to collect the money? Will the records of the debt even still exist? Probably not. Money will be usefull for just 2 things when the zombie apocolypse starts, emergency firestarter, backup paper.

Accordion Twome
2011-11-18, 02:00 PM
Heres your crossbow http://www.freakygaming.com/gallery/concept_art/lord_of_the_rings_-_battle_for

guns are good and all kill three zombies with one shot but they're loud and you know that one time or another you will want to be stealthy.

A bow is good but you don't get the consistent strength of the crossbow.
Plus lets say you tripped while running away from a zombie like in the movies, you would have a hard time pulling the string.

you do not need pointed bolts, you need ones with a blunt head so they can bash thru heads.

have a gun and a crossbow and don't forget your friends.

TheGeckoKing
2011-11-18, 02:42 PM
When in doubt, determine the type of undead, and then refer to the correct charts;
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs43/f/2009/058/6/b/Proper_Disposal_of_the_Undead_by_la_ratta.jpg

Tyndmyr
2011-11-18, 03:06 PM
Heres your crossbow http://www.freakygaming.com/gallery/concept_art/lord_of_the_rings_-_battle_for

guns are good and all kill three zombies with one shot but they're loud and you know that one time or another you will want to be stealthy.

I think 500 subsonic rounds ran me...$30?


A bow is good but you don't get the consistent strength of the crossbow.
Plus lets say you tripped while running away from a zombie like in the movies, you would have a hard time pulling the string.

Firing a bow while not standing is not actually very difficult. With very minor practice, you'll be quite alright with firing bows from kneeling, sitting, etc positions. It's not ideal, but at close range, it's more than good enough.

There ARE problems with using a bow for this, but this one isn't a big deal.


you do not need pointed bolts, you need ones with a blunt head so they can bash thru heads.

Physics does not work that way.

Narren
2011-11-18, 06:08 PM
Crossbow bolts are expensive. So are arrow shafts. Both of these break. I am an excellent archer and would generally pick a bow over a gun on pure preference, but it's a fairly costly hobby. A fairly inexpensive shaft will run you about $3, a bit more for fletching(I fletch my own, but still, it's a lil bit), and then you need to tip it, which'll probably run you $5 each for fairly inexpensive ones. Note that a lot of heads are not fantastic at going through skulls and the like, so this is still very optimistic.

You're looking at something like $9 a shot, not counting bow/crossbow purchase and upkeep(which is roughly similar to that of a firearm). 22 rounds are 2.5-3 cents a shot. There is no way on earth you will get that kind of reuse out of them before they start breaking.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the accuracy suffer after an arrow has already been fired? I had thought that the impact from entering meat/bone bent it ever so slightly, causing it to veer off course. I've fiddled with bows and crossbows, but never got into them seriously.




Bashing through peoples heads is difficult. Burns a LOT of energy.

The quantity of ammo you could purchase for the price of even a crowbar is going to be significantly greater than just about any person can reasonably hope to smash. And melee is inherently dangerous. Use ranged weapons for everything you can.

The time off advice is good, tho.

Edit: If you're worried about your hearing, there's a number of solutions. First and foremost is reduced sound ammo and firearms. Legality varies based on jurisdiction, but silencers are remarkably popular and available in europe, and subsonic rounds exist basically everywhere.

I agree that a slow round with a suppressor is ideal when compared to bashing everything in sight, but you'll REALLY want a backup melee weapon/tool. Your firearm could malfunction or break, you could lose it or drop it, and not to mention you may need something heavy and sharp to tear something down or pry something open.

Traab
2011-11-18, 11:05 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the accuracy suffer after an arrow has already been fired? I had thought that the impact from entering meat/bone bent it ever so slightly, causing it to veer off course. I've fiddled with bows and crossbows, but never got into them seriously.





I agree that a slow round with a suppressor is ideal when compared to bashing everything in sight, but you'll REALLY want a backup melee weapon/tool. Your firearm could malfunction or break, you could lose it or drop it, and not to mention you may need something heavy and sharp to tear something down or pry something open.

I shot a damn arrow into a tree so deep that I lost the broad head off it. I never noticed one of my arrows going off target at later practice sessions though. I still wouldnt want to use an arrow against zombies though. The brain is NOT a big target, and on a zombie that is likely to be moving, whether slowly or fast, is going to be very hard to hit directly into the skull so it doesnt glance off, or hit them in the jaw, or cheek or some other useless area.

Plus its range is really limited. I wouldnt really want to try hitting anything beyond 20-30 yards and thats with sights on my bow. Less than that and chances are you dont have time to draw aim and fire since its right on top of you. Further away and there is no way in hell short of pure luck you are going to hit the brain of a moving target directly enough to penetrate the skull. Zombies arent deer, they dont tend to freeze in place for you to shoot them in a vital area the size of a dinner plate.

thubby
2011-11-18, 11:24 PM
one thing every zombie movie misses is that zombies still need legs to walk.

if you're not a very good shot and you have a powerful weapon, aim for their lower body.
a hit on the hips/legs is basically guaranteed to at least knock one over even if it doesn't keep it on the ground.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-19, 12:20 AM
one thing every zombie movie misses is that zombies still need legs to walk.

if you're not a very good shot and you have a powerful weapon, aim for their lower body.
a hit on the hips/legs is basically guaranteed to at least knock one over even if it doesn't keep it on the ground.

they need their legs for more then just walking. Once they become crawlers they practically can't hurt you unless you lie down. Without the ability to put any of their mass behind their attacks they can't even damage anything. Plus arms aren't meant for walking so those will degrade pretty fast under the wear and tear of their movement and then they can't move at all and are zero threat to anyone over the age of 4

Tvtyrant
2011-11-19, 01:27 AM
If you put leg removing obstacles down you only need a wall about 8 ft. high to keep the others out. Also they can no longer effectively pound themselves against it, so it doesn't have to be nearly as thick.

Cerlis
2011-11-19, 11:41 AM
@The Succubus.

I know have this image of a group of survivors playing DnD in between sleep and their turn on watch.




-----------------------

Also, i think its a given that ANY form of ranged weapon is going to be EXPENSIVE and FLAWED. And though Melee weapons put you on the front they dont use ammo.

The issue is....If they are slow zombies that cant easily infect you than you can probably survive forever if you play it smart and use ALL your options.

If they are slow zombies that easily infect (all they need to do is scratch you) then it would probably be a decade at most before an accident happened and you joined the club.

If its fast zombies, you probably have a few weeks at most.

-------------

I say this because everyone seems to be under the impression they are a bamf who can own zombies all day (and never need to go to the bathroom. forget which zombie rule that was)

Forum Explorer
2011-11-19, 01:03 PM
@The Succubus.

I know have this image of a group of survivors playing DnD in between sleep and their turn on watch.




-----------------------

Also, i think its a given that ANY form of ranged weapon is going to be EXPENSIVE and FLAWED. And though Melee weapons put you on the front they dont use ammo.

The issue is....If they are slow zombies that cant easily infect you than you can probably survive forever if you play it smart and use ALL your options.

If they are slow zombies that easily infect (all they need to do is scratch you) then it would probably be a decade at most before an accident happened and you joined the club.

If its fast zombies, you probably have a few weeks at most.

-------------

I say this because everyone seems to be under the impression they are a bamf who can own zombies all day (and never need to go to the bathroom. forget which zombie rule that was)

A decade should be plenty of time for the zombies to rot away. Fast zombies are the deadliest but tend to have the quickest decay rates. So I still think the best plan is to take over a building with a lot of stairwells (like a large apartmant building) booby trap the stairs with traps that are easy enough to avoid with care and just kill any crippled zombies that eventrually crawl their way up.

Narren
2011-11-19, 06:02 PM
I say this because everyone seems to be under the impression they are a bamf who can own zombies all day (and never need to go to the bathroom. forget which zombie rule that was)

I think this is where the zombie craze started. They're so slow and stupid that EVERYONE thinks they will rock the Zombie Apocalypse. That, and it's the only time that it's socially acceptable to engage in homicidal urges.

Cerlis
2011-11-19, 06:16 PM
A decade should be plenty of time for the zombies to rot away. Fast zombies are the deadliest but tend to have the quickest decay rates. So I still think the best plan is to take over a building with a lot of stairwells (like a large apartmant building) booby trap the stairs with traps that are easy enough to avoid with care and just kill any crippled zombies that eventrually crawl their way up.

problem is once again its a matter of the type of zombie. Some zombies, like in resident evil, arent necessarily undead. If they are infected and die then the virus will restore them to movement, but though i dont think it addressed this (and i could be wrong as i didnt play through all the games), the ones that went straight from human to zombie (via infection without death) didnt die. The T virus (which it seems most zombie plagues are based off of) was designed to heal and restore the body. and the modified version turned you into a "superior species" (i believe that was in the second movie, not sure about game). So many of these zombies are dead and wont rot.

This also assumes that the zombies happen to be the mindless type. If whatever turns them basically makes them simplistic carnivors then it would stand to reason they would stay in areas where they would not dry out and feel "comfortable"


--------------------

There are to many variations of zombies. and alot of those dont act the way they need to in order to survive for long. If such a thing where to happen, hope they are stupid slow zombies that DO rot. else we are screwed.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-20, 01:54 AM
the biggest problem with zombies is this:

If they are the classic stupid slow zombies that spread the infection by biting (regardless of how it starts) then they aren't a threat. Very few people would actually die to these things as you can so easily avoid them or fend them off.

The fast zombies are usually infected (contangious cannibals) which while deadlier to the average human don't really pose a threat to any military installastions

The final zombie is the classic necromancy zombie which is actually pretty scary. Nothing stops it and once it kills you, you join in its rampage of destruction. Its fueled by magic so it breaks all the rules of the body and of the world.

Once you deviate from these far enough you aren't really talking about zombies at all now are you?

thubby
2011-11-20, 03:10 AM
Once you deviate from these far enough you aren't really talking about zombies at all now are you?

i dont know, the "mutant" zombies a-la L4D and TZH are still distinctly zombies. we dont really know what they are, but they would pose a credible threat to civilian and military personnel alike

Traab
2011-11-20, 10:21 AM
The thing about even fast zombies not being a credible threat is both true and false. Against a prepared military, fast zombies are fodder for machine gun nests and such. Against an unsuspecting army base? The guard post sees a swarm of approaching sprinters, they make the call, but by the time people are even aware of whats going on, the sprinters have swarmed through the gates and started spreading out, attacking everything that moves. Unless the soldiers are sleeping with their rifles, they are going to get rolled over by the zombies until they can get to an armory, assuming that they even can before its too late and most of the base is turned and also attacking them. Eventually though, word gets out, the various bases arm themselves, and the now prepared military will start slaughtering zombies.

But the question is, how long does it take to setup a cordon around the zombies that can keep them contained? Yeah they know about THIS swarm of zombies, but what about any that might have gone in another direction? Or not stopped to feed on that base and are several miles further down the road? Eventually the zombies would still lose, but there is no telling just how catastrophic the loss of life would be before that happens. And with fast zombies it only takes a couple to escape the net and attack a small town to recreate the swarm. While not a big threat to a prepared army, to a small town that isnt expecting it, a few sprinters would be DEVASTATING.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-20, 12:10 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the accuracy suffer after an arrow has already been fired? I had thought that the impact from entering meat/bone bent it ever so slightly, causing it to veer off course. I've fiddled with bows and crossbows, but never got into them seriously.

Type of wear depends on the shaft, really. Aluminum arrows tend to accumulate dings and bends until they eventually fail, which is probably what you're thinking of. Me, I like carbon shafts, which stay quite accurate until they fail catastrophically.


I think this is where the zombie craze started. They're so slow and stupid that EVERYONE thinks they will rock the Zombie Apocalypse. That, and it's the only time that it's socially acceptable to engage in homicidal urges.

Honestly, yes. Things what have only base instincts to draw on are easy to outsmart. Things what move at a shuffle are pretty easy to outrun. Essentially any human should be able to take out a pretty substantial number of zombies before going down at a bare minimum.

Note that fast zombies changes things a fair bit. Still, they're usually not champs at higher thinking. Undead what can think cleverly are generally described as vampires, etc, not zombies.

Hubert
2011-11-20, 01:12 PM
A question regarding the zombies we are planning to fight: how resistant are they to physical damages? If you shoot them in the legs or torso, will they instantly crumble into harmless heaps of dead flesh, or will they just stagger a bit and continue to rush you full speed?

Bullets are very good to kill living things. Maybe they are not the most efficient things against undeads (at least the small calibers).

Tyndmyr
2011-11-20, 01:15 PM
A question regarding the zombies we are planning to fight: how resistant are they to physical damages? If you shoot them in the legs or torso, will they instantly crumble into harmless heaps of dead flesh, or will they just stagger a little and continue to rush you full speed?

Bullets are very good to kill living things. Maybe they are not the most efficient things against undeads (at least the small calibers).

I would assume their component body parts are equally sturdy as compared to the living version. They lose functionality as they take physical damage to limbs, they simply don't stop "living" until the brain is destroyed.

It seems like the best cross section.

And it would be extremely strange for bullets not to be efficient against undead. Not only does that disagree with much of the lore, bullets just pack a giant pile of energy. Say, a bow, is just not going to be better because of physics. You just don't have the same ft/lbs impacting.

Hubert
2011-11-20, 03:35 PM
And it would be extremely strange for bullets not to be efficient against undead. Not only does that disagree with much of the lore, bullets just pack a giant pile of energy. Say, a bow, is just not going to be better because of physics. You just don't have the same ft/lbs impacting.

I agree that firearms are a good option against undead. But I also think they will not be as effective as they are against living people. Zombies do not feel any pain and can often withstand many injuries without being noticeably incapacitated. A bow would indeed be even much worse in this respect :smallsmile:.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-20, 04:32 PM
The thing about even fast zombies not being a credible threat is both true and false. Against a prepared military, fast zombies are fodder for machine gun nests and such. Against an unsuspecting army base? The guard post sees a swarm of approaching sprinters, they make the call, but by the time people are even aware of whats going on, the sprinters have swarmed through the gates and started spreading out, attacking everything that moves. Unless the soldiers are sleeping with their rifles, they are going to get rolled over by the zombies until they can get to an armory, assuming that they even can before its too late and most of the base is turned and also attacking them. Eventually though, word gets out, the various bases arm themselves, and the now prepared military will start slaughtering zombies.

But the question is, how long does it take to setup a cordon around the zombies that can keep them contained? Yeah they know about THIS swarm of zombies, but what about any that might have gone in another direction? Or not stopped to feed on that base and are several miles further down the road? Eventually the zombies would still lose, but there is no telling just how catastrophic the loss of life would be before that happens. And with fast zombies it only takes a couple to escape the net and attack a small town to recreate the swarm. While not a big threat to a prepared army, to a small town that isnt expecting it, a few sprinters would be DEVASTATING.

I'd hate to think me and a bunch of friends could invade a military base by running really fast. The gates would be closed and even if the guards didn't initially open fire the gates would buy enough time for enough troops to grab sufficent firepower to overpower the zombies.

If the zombies have already reached a swarm level then the military is already informed and preparing even if they don't know the exact nature of the threat. Swarms can easily be found by using helicopters to scout and they can easily be destroyed with explosives.

Simply running inside and locking the door helps a lot against zombies while you arm yourself with some improve knives and pots. Or baseball bats or hammers. You might get infected but you stand a good chance of disabling the zombie in question because by the time it breaks through the door its torn its arms and they are no longer as strong as you are.

Traab
2011-11-20, 04:43 PM
I'd hate to think me and a bunch of friends could invade a military base by running really fast. The gates would be closed and even if the guards didn't initially open fire the gates would buy enough time for enough troops to grab sufficent firepower to overpower the zombies.

If the zombies have already reached a swarm level then the military is already informed and preparing even if they don't know the exact nature of the threat. Swarms can easily be found by using helicopters to scout and they can easily be destroyed with explosives.

Simply running inside and locking the door helps a lot against zombies while you arm yourself with some improve knives and pots. Or baseball bats or hammers. You might get infected but you stand a good chance of disabling the zombie in question because by the time it breaks through the door its torn its arms and they are no longer as strong as you are.

Well, if you and your friends number in the hundreds, and can only be permanently put down by a head shot or a lot of damage, then id say your standard base could take some heavy damage at the very least. Ill admit, I havent been to many military bases, but the ones I have seen are hardly fortresses. At best there might be a delay in zombies getting in if a gate is closed, they arent that substantial really. Thats assuming they even get the gate closed in time. Plus, ok, so everyone has shut and locked their doors. Now what? There arent very many guns in their houses, no real grouping of troops to lay down focused fire, and everyone that was outside at the time is likely going to get turned quickly. Unless the base is already on high alert, the people there will be spread out, and barely more capable of defending themselves than any other town. Which was my point really. An unprepared base would get swamped fast. A prepared one would slaughter the undead.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-20, 05:14 PM
Well, if you and your friends number in the hundreds, and can only be permanently put down by a head shot or a lot of damage, then id say your standard base could take some heavy damage at the very least. Ill admit, I havent been to many military bases, but the ones I have seen are hardly fortresses. At best there might be a delay in zombies getting in if a gate is closed, they arent that substantial really. Thats assuming they even get the gate closed in time. Plus, ok, so everyone has shut and locked their doors. Now what? There arent very many guns in their houses, no real grouping of troops to lay down focused fire, and everyone that was outside at the time is likely going to get turned quickly. Unless the base is already on high alert, the people there will be spread out, and barely more capable of defending themselves than any other town. Which was my point really. An unprepared base would get swamped fast. A prepared one would slaughter the undead.

Once the zombies have reached hundreds of people the militray knows about them and is on high alert. The military bases I'm aware of generally aren't surronded by lots of people so it would be very rare for them to get hit first.

While a chainlink fence can't stand up to a crazed mob of hundreds it can handle a few dozen people and again if the zombies are already in the hundreds then the military is already on high alert.

Even torso shots will weaken a zombie while leg and arm shots will cripple them to the point of uselessness. It helps that the military are all trained in close combat and carry some really spetacular knives.

The point of locking yourself in your house is to buy time. It sucks for the people locked out but for yourself it will weaken the first one to break in and it could buy you enough time for the military to cripple nearly all of the zombies with some well placed explosives. By the way this is talking about what small towns should do.

eulmanis12
2011-11-20, 07:32 PM
combat against the undead:

If armed with Small caliber weapons~ .22, 5.5mm
-Headshots at short range, otherwise don't bother. Not enough knockback or penetraiting power to justify using the ammo at longer ranges.

If armed with Higher caliber weapons, .357, .45, 9mm, 30 ot 6
Stay at long distance, head shots.
At shorter range aim center of mass, knockback and damage to spinal cord will incapacitate target

If carrying automatic weapons set target selector switch to semi-auto then see above, automatic will just waste your ammo with multiple hits on the same target in close to the same area.
Exception
If for some reason you are using a .50 caliber machine gun. Then sustained automatic fire is accepatble because the rounds carry enough force to go completely through a target and into the zombies behind it.

Shotguns
Head/torso shots

Melee weapons
Knives, not much use, best bet is the base of the skull from behind.
Sledge Hammer, bashing the brains will kill, breaking the limbs may be easier and allow for escape
Crowbar, bend section will easily penetrait skull if swung overhand.
Shovel (single opponent), hit in chest to knock over, plant shovel-point on neck jump on shovel to sever head.
Shovel (multiple opponents) bash heads
Machete, remove limbs/heads not as useful as one would think. it is very difficult to remove the limbs/head of a non-imobalized target with a machete.
Pickaxe, spike into head
Axe, chop overhand down into head
Hatchet, see above
Shark control device (unlikely I know but fun), poke head, reload, repeat.
Cattle prod, not useful
Other zombie: not safe
severed limb, not useful
Chainsaw, blood spray everywhere poses chance of infection. Difficult and unsafe to swing back and forth, noise will attract every zombie nearby to your position
Scyth, chop heads
Mace/flail bash heads
nunchucks, not useful, ever, except as paper weights
rock, bash head
chair, guess
bar stool, bash head


Improvised home defenses
Chandelier, dropping one on a zombie is likely to smash through its skull, though setting up the kill is difficult.

Bookshelf, Moving a large bookshelf to the top of the stairs, once several undead are moving up push over and crush them

TV on door, Just like the old bucket of water on the door trick, except with a TV. Likely to crush or disable the first undead through the door

Oven bomb

C-4 on the load bearing supports (if you don't intend to stay it can effectively kill all undead in the house)

randomly placed holes in the floor (cause undead to fall into the basement)


Non-improvised defenses that are effective

Claymore placed 5.5 ft off ground in a doorway

Bouncing Betties altered to jump to 5.5 feet

Grenade with tripwire 5.5 ft off ground

(5.5 ft is the hight most likely to cause shrapnell to go into the zombie's head as 6ft is average height and thus placing the bomb slightly lower will make it more likely to kill shorter zombies while still severing the neck/head of regular zombies)

hydroplatypus
2011-11-20, 07:41 PM
Well, if you and your friends number in the hundreds, and can only be permanently put down by a head shot or a lot of damage, then id say your standard base could take some heavy damage at the very least. Ill admit, I havent been to many military bases, but the ones I have seen are hardly fortresses. At best there might be a delay in zombies getting in if a gate is closed, they arent that substantial really. Thats assuming they even get the gate closed in time. Plus, ok, so everyone has shut and locked their doors. Now what? There arent very many guns in their houses, no real grouping of troops to lay down focused fire, and everyone that was outside at the time is likely going to get turned quickly. Unless the base is already on high alert, the people there will be spread out, and barely more capable of defending themselves than any other town. Which was my point really. An unprepared base would get swamped fast. A prepared one would slaughter the undead.

I'm betting that even if unprepared a military base would still destroy a mob of undead.

Situation 1: Military base in relatively unpopulated area.
Military guards see a gigantic mob of people approaching and sound alarm, as they can see the mob several miles away.
When mob attacks Military is alarmed and has their weapons. After realizing that gunshots don't work, out come the grenades, and other explosives... One mass of dead zombies as their limbs are blown off.

Situation 2: urban area
Military is alerted by police about a "riot" coming their way that doesn't seem affected by non-lethal methods. Military is alerted, and a similar situation to above occurs.

Basically explosives ensure that the military wins against zombies, no matter how numerous (short of planet wide societal collapse)

Narren
2011-11-20, 07:48 PM
Even torso shots will weaken a zombie while leg and arm shots will cripple them to the point of uselessness. It helps that the military are all trained in close combat and carry some really spetacular knives.


Torso shots kill people because they shut down vital organs or they cause too much blood loss. There really isn't that much knock down power or structural damage resulting from a gunshot wound. So if those organs and blood are no longer needed by the zombie, then a torso shot is going to do very little. Same goes for arm and leg shots. You'll have to actually destroy the bone or most of the muscle mass to disable a creature that ignores pain. Even large small arm rounds don't do that much structural damage.

Shots would really need to be to the head, and that's harder than many people think. The head is a small target, and it bobs around quite a bit. An additional complication is training. Pretty much all military and law enforcement train to fire at center mass, as that is most effective area to target to disable a threat. When you're under stress, the training kicks in and it becomes very hard to do anything else. We've done a lot of force on force training with simunitions. Even when the bad guy is clearly wearing a kevlar vest, the majority of people still fire at center mass when he pulls a weapon.

Narren
2011-11-20, 07:57 PM
I'm betting that even if unprepared a military base would still destroy a mob of undead.

Situation 1: Military base in relatively unpopulated area.
Military guards see a gigantic mob of people approaching and sound alarm, as they can see the mob several miles away.
When mob attacks Military is alarmed and has their weapons. After realizing that gunshots don't work, out come the grenades, and other explosives... One mass of dead zombies as their limbs are blown off.

Situation 2: urban area
Military is alerted by police about a "riot" coming their way that doesn't seem affected by non-lethal methods. Military is alerted, and a similar situation to above occurs.

Basically explosives ensure that the military wins against zombies, no matter how numerous (short of planet wide societal collapse)

I'm not sure how effective grenades will be. You'll have to ensure that the shrapnel pierces the skull, which may or may not happen (especially if it's thrown at ground level).

I don't know about the force of other types of explosions. I know they typically damage internal organs, which causes death, but I don't know if the brain is on that list of organs that is typically damaged by the force.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-20, 08:09 PM
Torso shots kill people because they shut down vital organs or they cause too much blood loss. There really isn't that much knock down power or structural damage resulting from a gunshot wound. So if those organs and blood are no longer needed by the zombie, then a torso shot is going to do very little. Same goes for arm and leg shots. You'll have to actually destroy the bone or most of the muscle mass to disable a creature that ignores pain. Even large small arm rounds don't do that much structural damage.

Shots would really need to be to the head, and that's harder than many people think. The head is a small target, and it bobs around quite a bit. An additional complication is training. Pretty much all military and law enforcement train to fire at center mass, as that is most effective area to target to disable a threat. When you're under stress, the training kicks in and it becomes very hard to do anything else. We've done a lot of force on force training with simunitions. Even when the bad guy is clearly wearing a kevlar vest, the majority of people still fire at center mass when he pulls a weapon.

Some of the muscles in my arms and legs also use muscles in my torso. Punching holes into those muscles will reduce the effectiveness of the muscles in the arms and legs thus weaking the zombies.

Punching a hole into a muscle and you can't use that muscle properly anymore. It doesn't take that much damage till you can't move the limb at all.

Its my understanding that with training you are trained to shoot two rounds into the chest first before aiming for the head. While getting a head shot is more difficult that difficulty is overcome with the training they put in.

Narren
2011-11-20, 09:01 PM
Some of the muscles in my arms and legs also use muscles in my torso. Punching holes into those muscles will reduce the effectiveness of the muscles in the arms and legs thus weaking the zombies.
Well sure...putting holes in the zombie is going to weaken it. But will it be enough to actually affect it in any kind of practical manner? I haven't had a chance to study zombie anatomy, so I'm not sure.


Its my understanding that with training you are trained to shoot two rounds into the chest first before aiming for the head. While getting a head shot is more difficult that difficulty is overcome with the training they put in.

That's the Mozambique Drill. I've heard of it, but I've never actually seen a training program that utilizes it. It was deemed ineffective by every use of force expert I know. Essentially, you fire a double tap to the center mass, and then quickly assess the target. If it's still up, you put one in the head. It's very hard to do this quickly and under stress when the target is bobbing around and shooting at you. Most training now consists of putting bullets into whatever is shooting at you until it is no longer a threat.

eulmanis12
2011-11-20, 09:16 PM
According to a buddy of mine who is in the Corps marines specificaly train for headshots above all else. Would not suprise me if other military forces did similar things.

the mozambique drill is still used but it comes from the idea of shooting on the draw. as you raise your weapon you fire two shots into the center of mass, then your weapon is in proper firing position and you finish with a headshot.

Traab
2011-11-20, 10:04 PM
By the way this is talking about what small towns should do.

Yeah, the thing is, my post was replying to someone talking about relative danger levels of different zombie types, saying how even the sprinters are fodder for the military, and I was saying that thats true, for a prepared military. The bases ive seen are basically towns that have soldiers in them. They have houses, restaurants, theaters, so on and so forth. This isnt some small area with concrete walls, a few barracks, and an armory within 50 feet of the soldiers at all times.

Most of the time the majority of the soldiers arent even armed. Im talking US military in the USA bases. Not south central Baghdad or something. They would do better than a random town at surviving an unexpected swarm, since they DO have access to an armory and weapons, as well as their combat training, but without forewarning they would likely take heavy losses, if not total. And its easy to say, "Oh, well of COURSE they would know about it, therefore they are no threat." The military is not omniscient and there is always a chance for a breakdown in communication. Some small neighboring town gets patient zero and it spreads before reinforcements get called in and thats still hundreds, if not thousands of potential zombies just a few miles away ready to head in whatever direction they choose.

Narren
2011-11-20, 10:32 PM
According to a buddy of mine who is in the Corps marines specificaly train for headshots above all else. Would not suprise me if other military forces did similar things.


That's interesting. That runs contrary to what friends and co-workers have told me about their training (Marine Corp and Army). A friend who went through Sniper School said that even they are trained to aim for center mass.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-21, 07:50 AM
I'd hate to think me and a bunch of friends could invade a military base by running really fast. The gates would be closed and even if the guards didn't initially open fire the gates would buy enough time for enough troops to grab sufficent firepower to overpower the zombies.

I was air force until quite recently...this does seem like a notably bad plan. I feel like there would be a pretty substantial response quite rapidly. Gate guards contact security forces...plus they're almost invariably armed. There's usually a staffed visitors center near the gate as well.

Also, zombies not being fantastic coordinators, they'd almost certainly be spotted well before they were rushing the gate en masse.

In real life, military would utterly curbstomp zombies of basically any flavor, so you need to have some sort of compelling reason why they don't. Say, L4D style, where it's airborne initially, and the survivors are the lucky few who are immune.


Even torso shots will weaken a zombie while leg and arm shots will cripple them to the point of uselessness. It helps that the military are all trained in close combat and carry some really spetacular knives.

The above is not the case, really. Yes, many are trained in close combat. Some might carry awesome knives. Most certainly not all.

Additionally, the headshots above all else is not standard practice, so far as I am aware.

The Reverend
2011-11-21, 12:15 PM
in a zombie RPG I played we had managed to secure a big box hardware store so plenty of stuff to build fortification but no ammo, thankfully we had raided a truck load of food from a grocery store. Any way so we're sitting there trying to figure out how to deal with the growing zed problem outside our walls.

I came up with a brilliant set of solutions. Thankfully this was the kind of zombie where significant head damage killed them.

Cinder block on a rope, also brick on a rope

Pieces rebar and other long lengths of metal sharpened welded to chains dropped thru skulls

The safe of the building again welded to chains, we used a pully system to retract it. The store had two so we had one over the "trap entrance" in case of disagreeable raiders.

4X4s dropped every which way.

also....anvils.



Eventually we rigged an ice cream truck with a remote start up a couple hundred yards away as a distraction to help clear out the doors for our ingress and egress.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-21, 03:31 PM
I was air force until quite recently...this does seem like a notably bad plan. I feel like there would be a pretty substantial response quite rapidly. Gate guards contact security forces...plus they're almost invariably armed. There's usually a staffed visitors center near the gate as well.

Also, zombies not being fantastic coordinators, they'd almost certainly be spotted well before they were rushing the gate en masse.

In real life, military would utterly curbstomp zombies of basically any flavor, so you need to have some sort of compelling reason why they don't. Say, L4D style, where it's airborne initially, and the survivors are the lucky few who are immune.



The above is not the case, really. Yes, many are trained in close combat. Some might carry awesome knives. Most certainly not all.Additionally, the headshots above all else is not standard practice, so far as I am aware.


Really? I'm going by the knowledge that the few people I know in the military have. One of them is air force and I know she got close combat training. Though perhaps she wasn't actually required to get close combat training and did so on her own iniative. *shrug* doesn't really matter. Similar thing with the knives though that I know varies from country to country.

And I agree that the military would utterly destroy any type of zombies that can really be called zombies.

Narren
2011-11-21, 05:45 PM
Really? I'm going by the knowledge that the few people I know in the military have. One of them is air force and I know she got close combat training. Though perhaps she wasn't actually required to get close combat training and did so on her own iniative. *shrug* doesn't really matter. Similar thing with the knives though that I know varies from country to country.

And I agree that the military would utterly destroy any type of zombies that can really be called zombies.

Are you thinking of Army Combatives? Or the equivalent in other branches? I don't know a whole lot about it. It was described by someone I train with as a rushed martial arts program. I do know it draws quite a bit from Brazilian jujitsu. That's a bad thing when your fighting zombies...many of those holds will allow the enemy to still bite you, and pain compliance probably doesn't work too well on the undead.

Forum Explorer
2011-11-21, 11:13 PM
Are you thinking of Army Combatives? Or the equivalent in other branches? I don't know a whole lot about it. It was described by someone I train with as a rushed martial arts program. I do know it draws quite a bit from Brazilian jujitsu. That's a bad thing when your fighting zombies...many of those holds will allow the enemy to still bite you, and pain compliance probably doesn't work too well on the undead.

She was showing me how to use something along the lines of a police baton. How to hit and disable another human while making sure you remain perfectly safe from them. Also I know she knows some sort of knife fighting style do to the already mentioned awesome knives.

Narren
2011-11-21, 11:35 PM
She was showing me how to use something along the lines of a police baton. How to hit and disable another human while making sure you remain perfectly safe from them. Also I know she knows some sort of knife fighting style do to the already mentioned awesome knives.

It's probably just regular baton training. Is she Security Forces? I would actually HIGHLY prefer a solid baton or club to the collapsible ASP that most law enforcement and security use. It CAN kill if you strike in the head, but it just doesn't pack enough punch to reliable do so.

I've never heard of any knife fighting style in the Air Force. Maybe something in SERE training? I don't know. Though I imagine pararescuemen and combat controllers may receive some training with blades. Special ops across all branches tend to crib each others training, from what I understand. Though if your friend is a female, she doesn't have either of those jobs.

Of course, she could just be training on her own.

Tyndmyr
2011-11-22, 09:32 AM
Really? I'm going by the knowledge that the few people I know in the military have. One of them is air force and I know she got close combat training. Though perhaps she wasn't actually required to get close combat training and did so on her own iniative. *shrug* doesn't really matter. Similar thing with the knives though that I know varies from country to country.

And I agree that the military would utterly destroy any type of zombies that can really be called zombies.

I did eight years air force, the closest thing I got to combat training was a week in basic known as warrior week. I hear it's since been expanded a bit, but when I went through it, there was absolutely no hand to hand, and actual weapons training was limited to a single day, and all targets were entirely stationary. Knives were not involved at all.

Marines get a quickie hand to hand "martial arts" training. It is, in my experience, mostly only good for instilling confidence. After sparring with people fresh back from Marine boot camp, I'd have to say it's pretty worthless compared to learning real martial arts. That said, they do get notable weapons training, I hear.

The knives are most certainly not standard issue. Special forces, etc might be issued them, but most career fields are not.

Most people vastly overrate the amount of gear and combat training the average military person has, and it probably stems from a lack of realization of just how many people are support troops. If I had a dollar for every time someone, after I told them I was in the AF, asked me what plane I flew....I'd have a lot of dollars.

Emmerask
2011-11-22, 09:57 AM
So what plane did you flew? :smalltongue:

Tyndmyr
2011-11-22, 01:23 PM
Oddly enough, I made it through roughly 7.8 years of my 8 before even being a passenger on an air force plane. =)