Scout Help

[Bobbunny]

So I can't go Swift Hunter. Or take Improved Skirmish.

Anyone have any ideas for me?

Edit: Cannot involve me becoming Chaotic Evil/Evil or me becoming lawful or good in anyway.

Becoming Evil makes me the target of the Paladin and the Cleric, and I have literally no chance in becoming good or lawful due to my personality involving playing this game.

Edit 2: I am a Scout, and had an idea to go some sort of Scout/Sneaky person because of my 20 Dex and maxed out skills for stealthynism. I.e Scout/Rogue. Any advice on that.
Have 2 Weapon Fighting and yet to pick my level 3 feat.

[hex0]

Dragon Devotee

edit: maybe go into unseen seer after that since you have the skills. Or you could just go into Trapsmith->Swiftblade. Though if your DM banned Swift Hunter, I would bet Swiftblade is a no go too?

[Bobbunny]

Bumpity bump bump

[gbprime]

Are swift hunter and improved skirmish out because of book limitations? If so, what are you allowed to access? We can help you better if we know what you're allowed to use.

[Lateral]

Unseen seer is a good bet; you can go the caster-heavy route, but if you want to be a more scouty character you can always go Wizard 1/Scout 4/Unseen Seer 10/whatever 5. For the caster-heavy route, it'd be more like Scout 1/ Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/whatever casting-advancing 5 with Able Learner to be able to get those ranks in skills.

[hex0]

Are swift hunter and improved skirmish out because of book limitations? If so, what are you allowed to access? We can help you better if we know what you're allowed to use.

I was wondering this too...

But the reason I suggested Dragon Devotee is because it increases your skirmish and gives you casting as a second level sorcerer (among other things). Unseen Seer could follow from there.

[Bobbunny]

Are swift hunter and improved skirmish out because of book limitations? If so, what are you allowed to access? We can help you better if we know what you're allowed to use.

/quote
"Anything I find fair"
Which is why I can't use swift hunter and improved skirmish.
The reason I wanted to go more sneaky is because I'm the only person left (Our rogue died from the pally and cleric) who can sneak around, scout, and do related sneaky stuff. I am a halfling btws and is in a party that is currently full of casters and a -2 INT modifier Pally...

[hex0]

If he is going to cramp the Scout's style so much, why not just play another class? Like Factotum or Spellthief? :smallconfused:

Scout 5/Trapsmith 1/Unseen Seer X can be pretty darn sneaky and deal with traps as well, if that is what you need.

[Diefje]

Why are those 2 feats off limits?

Do you want to be a melee or ranged scout? Assuming a straight Scout. For melee, Dodge - Mobility - Spring Attack - Bounding Assault is a good baseline unless you can get Pounce and 2 weapon fighting. For ranged, Point Blank Shot - Precise Shot - Rapid Shot - Manyshot

Also look up the Scout Handbook.

[jiriku]

If you want to play to the archetype of a wilderness warrior, scout/barbarian with ACFs to gain trip and pounce combines well with your skirmish damage, while still allowing enough skill points to move into trapsmith at 6th level. Trapsmith is a tremendously versatile skill monkey class that has a lot to offer, but unfortunately all of these options are very good, which may strike your DM as "unfair". Still, it can't hurt to ask.

If your DM is of the "melee can't have nice things" camp, I'd recommend multiclassing into druid. That sort of DM almost always accepts druid, because it's a core class, and druid is so overpowered that even being 2 levels behind on your casting progression you'll still be quite capable. Plus, it offers enough skill points to keep you stealthy. You will need a fair Wisdom score to cast your spells, although it need not be extremely high if you stick to buffs, summons, heals, and no-save attack spells.

If you want to avoid spellcasting, I'd suggest you just munch around between barbarian, scout, fighter, and rogue, cherry-picking feats and class features for a good pouncing charger while keeping your skills adequate. You'll need to plan your level progression carefully to avoid multiclass experience point penalties, and it won't hold up in power very well past about level 9ish, but until then you'll do alright, especially if you're a team player and coordinate your actions closely with the cleric and paladin in combat. Focus on setting up flanking charges, and you'll deal adequate damage. You might consider getting a bag of tricks to be able to pop out a flanking partner when needed.

[Bobbunny]

Given my stats of
14 STR
20 DEX
13 CON
12 INT
14 WIS
and 9 CHR
I am opting for a different approach.

I was considering the trapsmith 1 when it was suggested, mainly for the skills. However, mainly I would prefer to go for a melee (No spring attack tree pl0x), melee stealth, or melee/range/stealth.

Please take note that we tend to skip around scenery a lot. We have already went through a bazaar, floating castle in the sky (base), 3 villages, and currently in the Underdark with many more places in store.

Generally, most classes are OK.

[gbprime]

Okay, I'm confused now. You selected scout, but you do not want Improved Skirmish nor do you want Spring Attack.

What were you planning to DO with the scout in the first place?

[Bobbunny]

Okay, I'm confused now. You selected scout, but you do not want Improved Skirmish nor do you want Spring Attack.

What were you planning to DO with the scout in the first place?


I can't use Improved Skirmish and Spring Attack is usually not really worth the tree.

I was planning to be an idiot and rush things down.

[hex0]

I was planning to be an idiot and rush things down.

So why aren't you playing a Barbarian instead? They are the definition of being an idiot and rushing things down? :smallconfused:

[gbprime]

Okay, you don't think Improved Skirmish is "fair". Gotcha.

And you took two-weapon fighting, which you cannot use during any round in which you skirmish. Interesting. Not a choice most people would have made.

Well your 3rd level feat should definitely be Weapon Finesse, as it will net a an extra +3 to hit. And rogue levels will bring sneak attack damage online to help your two weapon fighting.

Since you don't think Improved Skirmish is fair, I won't suggest Swift Ambusher, since that would provide a similar bonus to skirmish dice.

If you want the melee/range/stealth option you're talking about, pick up POint Blank Shot and a Weapon Focus with something ranged. This qualifies you for the Deadeye feat (Dragon Magazine Compendium) which allows you to add your DEX bonus to damage with ranged attacks under 30 feet. (And it stacks with STR and sneak attack.)

[Bobbunny]

So why aren't you playing a Barbarian instead? They are the definition of being an idiot and rushing things down? :smallconfused:

Wanted more options and the stealth ability

[Bobbunny]

Okay, you don't think Improved Skirmish is "fair". Gotcha.

And you took two-weapon fighting, which you cannot use during any round in which you skirmish. Interesting. Not a choice most people would have made.

Well your 3rd level feat should definitely be Weapon Finesse, as it will net a an extra +3 to hit. And rogue levels will bring sneak attack damage online to help your two weapon fighting.

Since you don't think Improved Skirmish is fair, I won't suggest Swift Ambusher, since that would provide a similar bonus to skirmish dice.

If you want the melee/range/stealth option you're talking about, pick up POint Blank Shot and a Weapon Focus with something ranged. This qualifies you for the Deadeye feat (Dragon Magazine Compendium) which allows you to add your DEX bonus to damage with ranged attacks under 30 feet. (And it stacks with STR and sneak attack.)
The DM does not think Improved Skirmish is "fair".
Two-Weapon fighting just takes reduces penalties on dual wielding, which i do with hand axes that can be used as throwing axes with no penalty.

I am considering really to use ranged weapons and go for the rogue/scout thing. Currently I am looking through things I could do. Namely classes and prestige classes.

Obviously if he disallows swift hunter he will disallow swift anything. Trust me, If I could, I would totally go swift hunter or a swift ambusher.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think you are misreading two weapon fighting...

[*.*.*.*]

Dip lion totem barb for full attacking skirmish?

[Daftendirekt]

I think you are misreading two weapon fighting...

Me too. I think you should check out PHB pg 160, and read how two-weapon fighting works in 3.5...

[Darrin]

But the reason I suggested Dragon Devotee is because it increases your skirmish and gives you casting as a second level sorcerer (among other things). Unseen Seer could follow from there.

This would be my advice. Scout X/Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 10. This gives you a much better progression of skirmish damage than Scout (+6d6, better than Scout 20!). If I wanted a little more skirmish, I might toss two levels of Highland Stalker on the tail end, otherwise I'd finish off with Abjurant Champion.


Scout 5/Trapsmith 1/Unseen Seer X can be pretty darn sneaky and deal with traps as well, if that is what you need.

Hmm... tempting, but the Trapsmith's spell progression only goes 5 levels.

For sneakiness, I'm fond of Umbral Disciple: Hide In Plain Sight + miss chance. Ask your DM if you can treat the Sneak Attack progression as Skirmish. Indigo Strike + Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws or a 2-level Totemist dip would be very sneaky.

[Darth_Versity]

Well what you have so far just doesn't work. you can't skirmish on any round you use TWF so its a bit pointless. Why is Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish considered "unfair"? Is it worth providing arguments for your DM to show whay they are not only balanced, but make the scout/ranger a into a decent character both fluff wise and mechanically?

What sort of optimisation are the other players?

[Bobbunny]

Two-Weapon fighting is a passive perk that reduces the penalties on attacking with 2 weapons by 2 for primary hand and 6 on off hand so that a normal weapon is no longer -6 and -10, but instead -4 and -4.

Am I missing something here?

Fufufufu
He disallowed travel devotion as well. Currently asking him for reasons.

Also, the party consists of a Wizard, a Bard, a Cleric, a Paladin, and a Sorcerer. Literally none of us besides me cared too much for optimization so they are probably all going straight to level 20 as one class. Only me, the sorcerer and the DM have the knowledge and reasoning to go the step further. And also because I really need a way to make sure I don't completely die if I accidentally turn evil due to the things I have a tendency to do. The bard used to be a rogue, who accidentally turned evil after slitting the throat of a bugbear.

TL;DR Party = Wizard, Bard, Cleric, Paladin, Sorc + Me. My want to be better than them is a just in case maneuver in case I need to take on half the party. (Paladin, Cleric, and Sorcerer because the holy guys believe in the same god and the cleric and sorc are brothers in game)

[Gavinfoxx]

Two-Weapon fighting is a passive perk that reduces the penalties on attacking with 2 weapons by 2 for primary hand and 6 on off hand so that a normal weapon is no longer -6 and -10, but instead -4 and -4.

Am I missing something here?

Yes. Yes you are. You are missing that two weapon fighting doesn't reduce your penalties ability to do a normal number of attacks per round if you wield two weapons. For example, if your BAB is +6/+1, and you are holding two daggers, you can attack with one of them for one of your attacks, and another of them for the other (provided you make a full attack). What it DOES do is reduce the penalties for getting more attacks than usual if you are weilding two weapons... buuuuut you can only do that if you are making a full attack. That is, if you don't actually move, and thus do not get your skirmish damage when you attack with two weapon fighting.

[Bobbunny]

Yes. Yes you are. You are missing that two weapon fighting doesn't reduce your penalties ability to do a normal number of attacks per round if you wield two weapons. For example, if your BAB is +6/+1, and you are holding two daggers, you can attack with one of them for one of your attacks, and another of them for the other (provided you make a full attack). What it DOES do is reduce the penalties for getting more attacks than usual if you are weilding two weapons... buuuuut you can only do that if you are making a full attack. That is, if you don't actually move, and thus do not get your skirmish damage when you attack with two weapon fighting.

DM doesn't know that :D

[gbprime]

DM doesn't know that :D

Then I think we'd have to know this DM in order to give you good advice. Stuff seems arbitrary here. So really, since the rest of the group isn't optimized, just go with what sounds fun.

[Bobbunny]

Then I think we'd have to know this DM in order to give you good advice. Stuff seems arbitrary here. So really, since the rest of the group isn't optimized, just go with what sounds fun.

For me, just going with things that sound fun will end up with me against half the party. Probably the entire party in the Underdark where no one will be able to stop them. TECHNICALLY, I could run away and hide and stuff, but that will cause some crazy stuff/ I have to run away from lots and lots of mean spells and a staff that can discharge and absorb a seriously OP amount of flame.

End note: Unless I can find away to live through fire and magic missiles, I have to pull optimization.|

My plan in the case of having to fight. Break the staff in hopes of it exploding and channel dragon energy (Campaign thing) so I am made of fire :D

Or I could pull a Half-Ogre attack of opportunity thing with my spear.

[kulosle]

okay your character really seems like it only has two chances to save it self at this point. the easiest way is to take dervish. scouts make great dervishes and you should read the hand book. the second way is more complicated but more fun. i'll assume you're third level because you said you hadn't picked that feat yet. 3 scout/2 warblade/5 mater thrower/10 bloodstorm blade. the scouts handbook discusses all the fun was of moving 10 feat as a swift or free action. use those. start upping your strength and you'll end up throwing a crazy amount of weapons each turn. you don't even have to take BSB all the way if you really want to take some other level dip.

[Lateral]

[insert obligatory 'dervishes suck' statement here]

Bloodstorm Blade is pretty cool, yeah, but it's not worth it here. You lose ten levels of both initiating and skirmish progression if you want to take it to full. Taking four levels for Lightning Ricochet could work, though.

[Diefje]

Optimization built on DM ignorance, what?

[Bobbunny]

Optimization built on DM ignorance, what?

TECHNICALLY
I could break the game and go for a lulzy thog build by breaking an uber crystal that releases a colossal fire elemental.

[Lateral]

...And that relates to Thog how?

I'll assume that you misspelled 'thug'.

...And that relates to thugs how?

[gbprime]

Optimization built on DM ignorance, what?

Yeah, we can show you how to pull one over on the rulebooks. But if you want to pull one over on your DM, that's all you. We don't know the guy or his house rules nearly well enough to assist. :smallbiggrin:

[Bobbunny]

...And that relates to Thog how?

I'll assume that you misspelled 'thug'.

...And that relates to thugs how?

By summoning the fire elemental, I kill the entire party including me. That means new character sheets, which means I can go for a build like what Thog did in OOtS.

And for the DM, he banned all books except core.

[Gavinfoxx]

Oh. That won't improve balance though.

After all, Druid is core, as is Wizard, as is Cleric (Travel / Trickery!)...

You can still roflstomp his campaign with just core, if you want...

The question is, is doing so the optimal route for continued fun amongst the group?

[gbprime]

And for the DM, he banned all books except core.

Uh... Scout isn't core. It's usually referred to as "core plus four", meaning PHB, DMG, MM1, and the first 4 Complete books (Warrior, Divine, Arcane, Adventurer).

So I guess the next question would be... When your DM says "core only", which books does he mean?

[Bobbunny]

Uh... Scout isn't core. It's usually referred to as "core plus four", meaning PHB, DMG, MM1, and the first 4 Complete books (Warrior, Divine, Arcane, Adventurer).

So I guess the next question would be... When your DM says "core only", which books does he mean?

PHB1
Dungeon Master Guide 1
Monster Manual 1

He approved Scout because that is the one class I ever use.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why do you specifically like the Scout class enough to make it the only class you ever use, then?

[Bobbunny]

Uh... Scout isn't core. It's usually referred to as "core plus four", meaning PHB, DMG, MM1, and the first 4 Complete books (Warrior, Divine, Arcane, Adventurer).

So I guess the next question would be... When your DM says "core only", which books does he mean?


Why do you specifically like the Scout class enough to make it the only class you ever use, then?

Because I've only played in 3 campaigns, the 1st one I tried a fighter, and the second I liked the scout portion a lot, mainly because of Skirmish.

Any thoughts on multiclassing and feats?

[Gavinfoxx]

So you like the idea of being mobile and that mobility improving damage? Or being mobile and getting rewarded for doing that by rolling lots of dice?

[kulosle]

wait, besides the pricey entry cost, why do dervishes suck?

and yes you really do only need to take BSB to level 4. i highly recommend doing so. it's really your best bet.

[Bobbunny]

So you like the idea of being mobile and that mobility improving damage? Or being mobile and getting rewarded for doing that by rolling lots of dice?


wait, besides the pricey entry cost, why do dervishes suck?

and yes you really do only need to take BSB to level 4. i highly recommend doing so. it's really your best bet.


I like being mobile so I can kill more things and the mobility giving me lots of dice.

BSB (Bloodstorm blade correct?) Is not PHB1.

[Gavinfoxx]

So have you read this?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0

and this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0

and this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0

and this:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872250/The_Scouts_Handbook

and this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4621.0

You might want to tell the DM that you can't two weapon fight unless you are full attack or pouncing, if he thinks scout is too strong.

[Bobbunny]

So have you read this?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0

and this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0

and this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0

and this:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872250/The_Scouts_Handbook

and this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4621.0

You might want to tell the DM that you can't two weapon fight unless you are full attack or pouncing, if he thinks scout is too strong.

As noted somewhere else, I can't use Swift Hunter, my only option is to go for 20 Scout or multiclass ONLY in the PHB1. No prestige classes due to campaign settings and the DM's hatred of them.

Reminder: Anything except for the Scout class/anything he approves is banned unless it's from the PHB1/DMG1,MM1. That means all feats, classes, races, etc.

[Gavinfoxx]

Uhm, a bunch of those do mention options in the PHB. Go look, very closely, at the options inherent in those different handbooks. There IS stuff that fits your requirements, I know it!

But here's a good PHB/DMG only build...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

That does use a prestige class, though...

[Randomguy]

The best ways to use skirmish in core only are: Spring attack, so you don't get chopped up by AoO's from the people you're attacking, wildshape/get polymorphed into something with pounce, the manyshot feat and lastly, fighting from flying carpet.

You refuse to take spring attack, if you're polymorphed you can't TWF and the duration is short, if you multiclass druid and wildshape you don't get any more skirmish and still can't use TWF and if you choose to swap to archery you wasted a feat on TWF.

It seems like the best option is to use a flying carpet (speaking directions is a free action), but you have to wait until you can actually afford one and you need enough ranks in tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity if you plan on doing melee. There are risks though, namely falling off.

In this case, the best build is to go scout 20.

Alternatively, switch to rogue for the rest of your levels and treat your skirmish as something that comes up when you charge into battle rather than the thing you base your battle tactics on.

[Darrin]

It seems like the best option is to use a flying carpet (speaking directions is a free action), but you have to wait until you can actually afford one and you need enough ranks in tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity if you plan on doing melee. There are risks though, namely falling off.


There may be a cheaper version... get your hands on a Talisman of the Disk (500 GP, MIC) and give it to a party member that likes to charge into melee. Ride along as his "sidecar". Next round, assuming your partner is staying relatively stationary, ask him to make a 5' step, then you delay until after his turn and take your step 5' off the disk, 10' = skirmish damage.

[jiriku]

Honestly, you're really stuck between a rock and a hard place, here. By playing a non-core class in a core-only game, you're denied access to literally every single option that was created for use with your class. To make matters worse, scout is a pretty weak class to begin with. To make matters even worse, the martial feats in core are generally very poor. To make matters still worse, the classes the others are playing are some of the strongest in the game and are well-supported in core. Only their lack of optimization tech is preventing them from completely outclassing you.

That said, I'd suggest you splash a level of shadow dancer. A low-op, core-only group is likely to be completely stumped by Hide in Plain Sight and a good set of Hide and Move Silently checks. If you turn evil, you can just walk away. I doubt they'd be able to find you.

Also, if your DM is of the arbitrary type such that you could "accidently" turn evil, I'd suggest you just pony up for a couple of scrolls of atonement. Then you can bypass all this nasty PvP business by simply having the cleric cast atonement on your newly evil character, you get back to your Neutral alignment, and everyone can get on with business. If you want to impress the DM, you can even have a dramatically roleplayed confession and return to the faith.

[Bobbunny]

Thanks for all the input.
I am considering a 1 class dip into barbarian (Fast Movement), but will probably follow your advice too for the dip into shadow dancer.

Edit: It's not the DM, it's mainly my view point and tendency to kill without mercy for XP.

Edit 2: I feel as if by the time I got the feats for Shadow Dancer, I would be close enough to 14 Scout that it would no longer matter.

Edit 3: DM gave the OK to suggestions for armor and weapons. Load me up friends.

General though, I'm currently sifting through all my books on items. Recommend any?

[Gavinfoxx]

Items!

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11066.0
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149464
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=350.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12795.0

[jiriku]

You can get HiPS from the dark template, which you can get from a collar of umbral metamorphosis (ToM).